Interview with Bobby Borg on DIY music marketing

I've got a joke for you. What do you call somebody that hangs around with musicians? Oh, no, not that one, surely. All right, a bloody drummer. All right, now I've said it. Hello, world. This is Chris Abalo's Podcast Experiment, and I am Chris Abalo. Welcome back to the show. I hope it's back to the show anyway. I hope you've been listening to the show. I'm very... I'm very intent on getting the plugs done up front because, in part, because of the material we'll be covering today, but I look up and all of a sudden the show is over. So I thought, you know what? I should probably just let you know where you can find the show if you just stumbled upon the show. You can subscribe to Chris Abalo's Podcast Experiment on iTunes and also on the Stitcher app if you have that on your smartphone or various other mobile devices. And always, you can tune in live. 10 p.m. Pacific time every Monday at skidrowstudios.com and listen live and check out the... You can also check out the live video feed, too, which, if you're checking out the live video feed now, boy, are you getting ripped off because I'm the only one here, so there's nothing visually stunning for you to check out. And I doubt you find me visually stunning, and if you do, then I'd recommend a good optometrist. But it's funny how over the last few weeks since I've been doing the live broadcast that we've actually... Started out with me plus three people. Second live show, me plus two people. Last week, me and one person. This week, just me in the studio, but my guest will be on the phone. So people aren't disappearing. People are actually checking out the show, and I'm glad that everybody's checking out the show. I've gotten a really good response, and all the more reason I want to tell you where to find the show if you're coming to it... down the line. So now I started off with a little bit of a drummer joke up front because I resisted the idea of a drummer joke. I resisted the urge to do a Groundhog Day joke because it's Groundhog Day, and it might have been a little obvious, but it doesn't matter. I didn't go with the Groundhog Day joke. Although, I still don't understand why Groundhog Day's a thing because apparently, I was reading an article today, the groundhog seeing or not seeing his shadow is only accurate 28% of the time over the last several hundred years or however long they've been doing it. I didn't read the article very closely, Uh... We... We... We put an awful lot of stock into this glorified gopher who is supposed to predict whether or not we're going to get six more weeks of winter. So it's kind of a funny tradition, but there you have it. Having said that, I'm going to get a bunch of angry tweets tomorrow, so you can send them. Chris, why are you making fun of Punxsutawney Phil? I'm not. I swear I'm not. But, yeah, you can follow me at Chris Abalo, by the way, and Chris sells out on Instagram, and follow the show to finish the plugging before I got off my little groundhog. Long day tangent. You can find the show on Facebook. Give us a thumbs up. Let us know you like the show. Give the show a five-star rating on iTunes, excuse me, as well, when you subscribe. And follow the show at CapePod on Twitter and Instagram, and you will fulfill all your Cape needs and podcasting needs. Funnily enough, today is not only Groundhog, it's not just Groundhog Day. It's, I can't say this without laughing, it's National Frozen Yogurt Day, which, you know, it's funny. I wrote about this in September, how I wonder how other countries view us, where they think we celebrate a hell of a lot of food days here, where it's coffee day or sugar cookie day, all sorts of things. And I can't help but think everybody just looks as just American fat asses. Like they're celebrating pastries and celebrating food. And I can't help but think everybody just looks like they're celebrating frozen yogurt, which everybody's putting out all the chains. Cause as we know, self-serve frozen yogurt places are just as common as Starbucks now. They're everywhere. And a lot of them had a promotion for, oh, free yogurt today, coming from four to five. Well, first of all, a lot of us work for a living, so we can't roll in at four to five. Second of all, if you're giving away free yogurt, no one's going to get in in an hour. You're lucky if you get in tonight, if someone's giving away yogurt. And it's probably like free three ounces, like a little, one of those little paper kind of shot glasses of yogurt. And just to sample it. And then the rest is, you know, 498 a pound. So yeah, there you go. National frozen yogurt day. So today in a few minutes, I will be talking to author and musician, Bobby Borg, who wrote the recent bestselling book, Music Marketing for the DIY Musician. And he will be talking about creating and executing a plan of attack on a low budget. And the whole DIY concept is important to me because I've even the show is very DIY, even though being done in a studio and there are people working the controls and twiddling the knobs and various bits and pieces, they're also touching the studio gear as well. But while this is done with assistance, it's not done with the intention of waiting for sponsors or neither was the only podcast that matters. which we did for four years without sponsors or without any, let's say, assistance. So I like the whole do-it-yourself concept. And Bobby Borg, I met, it was, holy Christ, it's almost nine years ago now that I moved to Los Angeles. So it was probably about eight years ago, I took two of his music business classes at Musicians Institute, which were incredible. And he's a guy who has actually worked as a musician and has learned that the music business has two parts to it. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't learn that until they're informed about the fine prints in their contract or they don't make it to even step two because, unfortunately, they may have signed a bad deal. They didn't know how to balance things where whatever money they were putting out was actually coming back to them plus a profit. So it's, and now with so much of music having the capacity to be independent, then it's important that you know your stuff because if you want to take control of your career, it's very, very important that you go about it with strategy as opposed to just winging it. So we're going to be talking to Bobby Borg in a moment. So we're going to take a quick break. And after a brief interlude, we'll be on the phone talking to Bobby Borg about DIY music marketing right after this. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. is that a lot of creative people, you know, are brilliant, right brain, compose beautiful music. But then when it came to returning the phone call on time, a lot of times, you know, people didn't really have it together. So I knew there was a need for information out there that was, you know, conveyed in a way that was going to be easier to understand and easy to absorb. Moving on, I get signed to Atlantic Records. And a lot of times people think when you get signed to Atlantic Records, when you get signed to a major, your ship has now arrived and you're going to sit back and everybody's going to do stuff for you and press all the magic buttons and all these wonderful things are going to happen. Wrong. Literally, I became more of a business person and more of a marketer when I was signed to Atlantic. I could tell two stories without maybe mentioning names. But nonetheless, I used to get on a train from Jersey to New York City and literally sit on the floor with the! interns and lick envelopes and stuff them with like posters, sending them out to our fans saying vote for us on MTV. You know, now this is a guy that's signed to Atlantic Records, managed by Q Crime Management that handles Metallica, writing songs with Desmond Childs that wrote hits for Aerosmith and Kiss, you know, and produced by some of the world's biggest, you know, producers. So I realized at that point, man, you know, I mean, in this business, especially, and that was back then. Now, now, now in the age we are, where you have all these tools, we call them DIY tools, you know, thanks to the digital era. Now people are expected to do all this stuff themselves. So they really have no choice. So this was a perfect time for me to really throw all these ideas into a book that enabled people to really kind of think about what they were doing from a logical, systematic approach and just not sort of haphazardly just sort of go through their career and hope that they're going to be successful. Now they can actually strategize their careers and potentially, you know, set the course maybe so that they can hit their mark. Oh, yeah. Well, that's one of the things you tackle early in the book is creating a vision and setting up. I don't remember the exact wording you use, but basically a mission statement. You need to know what you're about going in because people, I guess, in a perfect world want to think that it's all going to work out, but winging it doesn't work. You can't build a career in anything on just winging it and kind of floating along and expecting things are going to pan out. So. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Hope is not a strategy. If I can repeat that again, a hope is not a strategy. Now, when you're young, maybe if, you know, you're in your room, you're living in your bubble, you just write a bunch of stuff and you kind of have that, you know, chest pounding. I am an artist and I just do what I do. And if people like my stuff, they'll buy it. And, you know, and that's. That lasts, you know, for as long as you're living at home, you know, as soon as you kind of get out and you have bills and you have to kind of support yourself. And as soon as you start to get a little bit into, you know, you're above your mid twenties, you might even start hitting close to your thirties. You know, you don't have time to play games anymore. You just kind of, you know, just kind of wing it and hope things work out. Yeah. Really kind of have to strategize and ask yourself, you know, what are we doing? Now, just to be clear real quick, that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form, compromising any integrity whatsoever. Right. I call it adjusting, adjusting your integrity, adjusting your vision, adjusting your, what you want out of your career and out of your life to make it work, to make it see the light of day. You know, otherwise potentially it could just be a band, you know, in a drawer, so to speak, that never gets seen. Yeah. There are a lot of people who've never left the garage who claim to have integrity, but meanwhile they're in somebody else's garage. And instead of doing laundry, they're buying strings or whatever. So yeah, there's a certain point where you need to, you need to make what you're doing sustainable for you, especially if you want to make a living doing it, because that's the part everybody seems to, and I went to and graduated from Musicians Institute and a lot of people, where you teach by the way, and a lot of people forget that it's called the music business. And business is probably disproportionately more than half, but it's half of that statement. And everybody just thinks it's about the music. And as long as the music's good, then that's really what's going to do it. And that probably comes from a, an idealist, dare I say, naive point of view where people assume, well, if it's good, then that's what's going to matter. And we've probably all been in that headspace, but ultimately, yeah, being informed on the business side of it and being able to go in with a plan, with a strategy is that makes all the difference, frankly. Absolutely. And again, to reiterate and really, really impose this on your listeners, it is not a question in any way, shape or form of, of, again, I have to say this again, just to be sure everyone gets it. Turn up your volume kids. I'm sorry, what's that? Oh, I was just telling everybody to turn up their volume and absorb it. Okay. So you can hear me. Okay. Right. Oh, I can hear you just fine. Yeah. I'm just want to emphasize, because we need to, we want to pound that into everybody. The message here at this minute marker in the show is you do not need to compromise your integrity. You can make, you can live a living doing it and be smart about it without selling your soul. Absolutely. No, definitely. We're definitely not talking about that in any way, shape or form, you know, just, just really kind of think about how, you know, you're unique in the marketplace, you know, think about how you're unique in regards to other groups that are out there, you know, really kind of consider whether or not, you know, whether or not you're making a strong statement, you know, that can really touch, you know, a certain group of people so that they look at you and say, well, I'm not going to sell you this. or they will think of you as like their leader and they become your passionate follower. You know what I mean? Yeah. Fans. You know, it doesn't make, doesn't make, it doesn't take much to really kind of think about this stuff, but you definitely have to kind of be in tune to what it is you're doing. Definitely. Now, let me ask you, what is the question you get asked most often from students? Someone who's going in cold, who is taking a music business course and kind of waking up to the reality that there's information out there that they don't know and they don't know how much they don't know. What's the question? What's the question? you're most commonly asked by students? Well, after like a lecture or after like a discussion or after, you know, an interview like this, it usually starts with, yeah, but so how do I get a deal? Wait a minute. You didn't tell me where the magic button is. At first they tend to ignore. Maybe it just goes over their head. You know, I understand, you know, I mean, you know, it takes a while really to kind of, you know, understand that, you know, you, it is a business. That's why it's called the music business, as you pointed out eloquently earlier. But that's usually what it starts out with. Yeah. So how do I get to the next level of my career? You know, so then I have to go back and I have to sort of reiterate what I call the, you know, the 10 steps of the marketing process. And at some point I could probably whiz through those 10 steps if you wanted me to, you know, to, so just let me know when you're ready for that. No, I'm good. Absolutely. Yeah. This way your lessons, your, your listeners will get a little bit more of an idea. You ready? You want to start? Yeah, go for it. I don't want to, I don't want to give the book away on my own. So you, you can go over it and give us the bird's eye view. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I was just saying, give us the bird's eye view of the book. You can absolutely give the 10 steps. I don't want to go too deep into anything because I don't want, I want people to buy the book because it's incredibly valuable to everybody. So please, you have the mic. Well, you know, yeah. I mean, I mean, so totally, I mean, this, this is stuff that you, that you study and you read over and again, you practice, you know so certainly having the book in your library would be very, very valuable and everybody out there listening that should definitely grab a copy. You could do that through my website or you can do that at Amazon. Just to kind of give you an idea of where to start, you guys, you know, think about, first of all, ultimately where you want to end up, you know, maybe five to seven years down the line, simply because if you don't know where you're going, it's difficult to get directions to go there. Okay. So that's step number one. Step number two, you kind of want to then sort of get outside of yourself and you want to kind of look outside into the world and see what's going on in the world. See what, what's important in the world right now. Think about globally, maybe what's happening as well. What's happening with technology? What, what new tools are going to be available, you know, five or six, seven years from now? What are some of the needs of the marketplace? In terms of how music is bought and sold, what are some of the new ways that music is going to be bought and sold? The whole idea is sort of the philosophy of Wayne Gretzky, which is the key to success is not skating where the puck is, it's skating where the puck is going. So you want to be innovators. You want to be unique. You want to be ahead of the path. You don't want to always be following what's hip now, because by the time you get good at what's good now, it's already going to be dated, you know? So just kind of think about that. And then three, you don't want to be competitive. You just want to think about your customers. And you really want to think about who you're serving, because the better you know who you're serving, the better you can serve them. You know, then of course, four, you want to look at your competitors and you want to see essentially who else is out there that potentially could take attention away from you so that you can differentiate yourself and specifically try to find something that's called a competitive advantage, something that's going to make you unique and stand out. After that, moving on. Move on to step five, you then want to actually do testing and feedback. Never just go ahead and create a bubble and just kind of throw stuff out there and then hope it sells. Like, you know, do some testing, you know, get some feedback from some music business consultants, some producers, and then actually get your room filled with about 30 of your fans and play through your set. See kind of the kind of vibe that they, you know, see what they think about it, you know, just get some feedback from them as well. Moving on, then you have to set goals. Now, goals are different from a vision. A vision is where you are now and where you want to be seven years from now. And then goals slice that vision up into digestible pieces. So in other words, you might base your goal on a first-year goal. You might just say, where do we want to be in a year? We want to be here in seven years, but what's the first logical step on the way to our vision? And now, at that point right there, you can go buy the book and write a paper. That's the start, everybody. Now, you're on the road, and now if you want to keep going, if you want to stay on the road, then yeah, absolutely. Well, there you go. And then there's all the other stuff that comes along with branding and product development and pricing and placing and distribution and promotion. There's all kinds of crap, but you're right. They should go out and grab the book and do some reading for themselves. And seriously, you guys, I mean, you've got to look at your music career. You've got to look at your business. And the more information you have, the better. And the more you invest in yourself, the greater chance that other people are going to want to invest in you, too, simply because people look at the ambition of others and say, man, these guys are hungry. These guys are busting their ass. These guys are really trying to do something. And I found that usually that's when people want to help you, not when you're just kind of sitting around waiting for a handout. People really like to see people. People that are proactive and out there doing their thing. Yes, you need to prove you can do the work. That's right. Now, it's funny. One of the things you used to impart to us, and I'm sure is a continuous stream up to and including the book, was one of the things people are afraid to do, especially bands, because everybody thinks more often than not, I'd say, they think what they're doing is new. And nobody wants to classify themselves. But the reality is, and you would always put it in these terms, the world is not your audience. But a lot of people resist actually classifying what they are. Well, we're alternative rap metal with a heavy folk influence. Nobody wants to really just say, okay, you need to find... Sorry, you have to put yourself in a little bit of a box. You don't need to be confined and uncomfortable in it, but you need to figure out what you are, because how are you going to explain it to other people in a way that they'll understand? Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up. Essentially, I use a metaphor. I use a cooking metaphor. And the kind of way I look at it is, suppose that we were having a party, and the party consisted of different people. Let's just categorize them into two categories, meat eaters and non-meat eaters. And we're trying to cook a meal, one meal, that's going to appeal to both non-meat eaters and meat eaters. Essentially, what's going to happen is we're going to create something that neither the meat eater or the non-meat eater is going to be able to eat. And the non-meat eater is going to be horribly excited about, right? So the process of segmentation is saying, okay, look, our audience potentially could be composed of meat eaters and non-meat eaters, but let's separate them into two categories and ask ourselves, which one is the biggest audience? Which one do we care about first? Which one is our most likely audience? And should we decide that, hey, our audience is composed more of meat eaters, then let's take the lasagna, meat, double, triple, heart attack, sausage lasagna, and make them really effing happy. Otherwise, if we try to water down a one-size-fits-all marketing strategy or philosophy to kind of appeal to everybody, then our message gets a little bit watered down. So segment your most likely audience, and then once you win them over, you could start segmenting the next likely audience. And so on and so forth until you do own the world. So it's very, very important to start in that process of segmentation. And branding, too, which is something, it's a well-worn term, and people are kind of tired of hearing it, but it's, the world is made up of brands. Everybody recognizes Coca-Cola and Oprah and all sorts of different, just the whole spectrum of brands. And so the term branding kind of has, I think, maybe a slight bit of, I think, a distinct to it when it comes to certain people, especially the artist types. But it's essential because you have to put yourself out there. You have to show people what you stand for. That's true. And I want to point out to people, too, that, you know, a brand lives in the mind of the customer. So in other words, or in our case, the mind of the fan. So you don't actually create a brand. What you do is you put out a brand identity. You put out messages. And then people will. Perceive those messages, if done correctly, in the way that you want them to perceive you as an actor, as a band, or as a business. So in other words, if you send out no message or you send out confusing messages or you send out, you know, one minute you're acting this way and then the next minute you're acting this way and the next minute you're looking this way, no one really quite knows what to make of you. So let's just take Subway Sandwich Shop for a minute, okay? Suppose that sometimes we show up and it's open. Sometimes we show up and it's closed. Sometimes we show up and everything really is fresh. Sometimes we show up and they don't have, you know, any bread at all. Sometimes we show up and it's $5. Sometimes we show up and it's $9. Essentially, it's not providing us any opportunity to really grasp who they are. So in essence, we just might move on to the next thing. There's nothing to hold on to. A brand is a promise. It's something that people come to expect and it's something that people attach themselves to because they know essentially what it is that they're going to get. That's why we go to Starbucks. That's why we go to see a KISS concert. That's why we go to Coachella. Because we know what we're going to get. So, you know, just think about what, you know, how you want your audience to perceive you and just make sure to send out consistent, believable messages. So that they form a really strong, positive image in their mind about you. It's funny, too, that you mentioned one of the steps in the book. One of the strategies is to learn from your competition. And there seem to be two schools of thought when it comes to competition. One says the way to destroy the competition is to not believe in competition and basically ignore it. And you seem to be of the other school where it's, no, observe and learn from the competition and see what works. And what doesn't work. Well, again, if we're, you know, it depends. Let's go with the first philosophy first. The first philosophy is let's not pay attention to anything out there in the world because we don't want our artistic space to be infected. So we sit in a cabin somewhere and we remove ourselves from the planet Earth and we just kind of write and we're into our own head and we don't want to leave it. We don't want to listen to anything because we don't want to pollute our thoughts. And hopefully you create music that's really special and really unique and really different. Now, on the other hand, you can actually really take a look at what's going out there, figuring out what people are doing really well and making sure to do some of that and then thinking about what people aren't doing at all and where you might be able to gain a little bit of a competitive edge or a little bit of a competitive edge. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. And that's what I'm trying to do. football metaphor real quick. Please do. It's timely. Yeah, think about the Super Bowl, right? Don't you think that those teams study each other, study films, study whether or not they go to the, on fourth down, whether or not they, on average, go to the air or go to the running. Right. Or everything about the football players, they sit in locker rooms and study films. Do you think that they just go, oh, let's never study anything. Let's just live in our bubble. Let's just do what we do. We'll get on the field and just play. You don't know. They know exactly what their strengths and weaknesses are, and they know how to exploit their strengths and weaknesses. So that's kind of the concept here in the music business. Now, you know, just listening to ourselves talk, I can see what your listeners might be thinking right now. God, this is just a whole lot of thinking and a whole lot of thought. I just want to rock. You know, I just want to sit in my room and rock. You know, so again, you know, keep in mind that, you know, we're not suggesting, that you take away that spirit, you know, just like turning your amp on 11, you know, and hitting the power boards and just kind of, you know, creating. You definitely want to continue doing that, but you just want to kind of pay a little bit more attention, you know, be open-minded to some different strategies. These things that I'm talking about, I did not invent. These are not Bobby Borg philosophies on marketing. These are tried and tested marketing tools that have been used by the most successful innovative companies for decades and are, and still continue to be used today and will be for the next 30 or 40 years as well. You know, the tools might change a little bit, but the concepts and the philosophies and psychology behind it all will remain, you know, consistent. So, you know, do what you do, but open your mind to some new ideas as well. This way you have different strategies to play with, different things that you can use in your toolkit that can help you get where you want to get ultimately. Definitely. Because you can be smart about it. You don't need to go into, especially now there's such, and that's why it's great to have a book like this that is so straightforward because especially now with, with the internet, there's just, there's an ocean of noise. Everybody needs to wade through and everybody has their two cents and they're able to put it out there mostly anonymously. And there's just, there's no clear cut way other than just scouring for interviews of people who you look up to, to maybe see what they did. But there doesn't seem to be very, very many clear cut ways of giving you a strategy of giving you a plan. And that's something you're, you're dead set on. And that was, you know, like I said, the impetus for the book was to inform musicians and to make sure that your experiences ended up benefiting others and that you were able to pass on the knowledge. You're saving people years of heartache and difficulty by putting this information in a book because it's, it'd be very easy for them to make the same mistakes and end up on a subway floor, licking envelopes. But they don't have to. Yeah. I mean, definitely, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really, really important. I mean, look, I mean, the bottom line is, you know, you know, I went through a, listen, I enjoy playing music. I played music ever since I was six years old and I practiced, you know, 18 hours a day at points, you know, I mean, I was, I was a nutcase. And I did that for literally a decade, you know, then went to Berklee College of Music in Boston and, you know, won scholarships there and then went out and was a studio musician playing around in Boston. And, you know, I just kind of go, wow, you know, it was, it's cool. I worked my ass off, but, you know, there's a lot of stuff out there that musicians, you know, need to know and don't know. I just kind of got really passionate about sort of, you know, figuring this all out and spitting it back to people in a way that's going to make sense for them. So maybe the path to their, their success, you know, can, can maybe be less bumpy with less, less obstacles. And there's a certain fulfillment that makes me feel as though maybe some of the little trials and tribulations that I went through are not in vain. So, you know, it brings a lot of meaning to me, you know, as well. So, yeah, you're right. It's, it's funny that you mentioned as far as locking yourself away in a bubble, which I think as, as artists, musicians, we, we do, we want to just go away and say, Oh, this is great. And we love this. And I think some of that translates over that kind of isolation or a lack of engagement. I think that translates also into how people, how bands, how artists won't necessarily engage with their audience. And so they're not getting any feedback unless they show up to play the gig and there's two people and they're both sitting at the bar, not paying attention to the show. But that, that engagement is also very essential. That's some shy away from it, but you really have to embrace, I mean, perfect example of engagement. And keeping people, keeping your fan base excited. The person I've been calling back to, especially this last few months, Taylor Swift, who's basically carrying the music industry right now in that aside from sending out boxes, especially, you know, specifically put together a boxes for fans that, you know, there's all these videos of people opening up boxes from Taylor and, um, post, you know, being very self-aware of what her audience is listening to by following comments and by posting a lot on Tumblr. And. Yeah. And even by putting out CDs, I mean, I, a lot of people say, I can't believe you like Taylor Swift. Well, I do like Taylor Swift's music, but whether people like it or not, she is keeping the CD format alive because she's putting out a physical product that people want to pay money for. And she's listening to what fans want. They, you know, so this new CD came with a little packet of, of Polaroids that looked like Polaroids circa 1989. And, you know, the, the booklet's worth, it's not just, you know, a little fold out of her in a dress leaning up against a tree. And it's like, you know, I paid $15 for this. No. She's putting something out there that people want to pay for. And she's engaging with her audience as huge, huge as she is. She isn't above that engagement and staying involved with people. And a lot of that contributes to success. And I think that it's something more, let's say artists who are more, keep things more insular are against, but it's important regardless of what level you're at. No, it is. I mean, listen, I mean, you know, being a musician is, you know, you're kind of wearing your heart on your sleeve. And, you know, and people are, are reaching deep down in their souls and they're trying to convey certain thoughts. And I think there might be potentially a fear of, you know, rejection, maybe a feel of a fear of maybe someone saying, you know, I don't like that. Or, you know, maybe there's a fear of, um, there's a vulnerability. Yes. So oftentimes with that vulnerability becomes, you know, there's a little bit of a, you know, I don't care if people like it. And, you know, maybe there's a, that's a little bit of denial. I don't know. You know, or maybe they feel because it's so sensitive, you know, to getting on a mic and saying, Hey, don't forget to go over our merch table on buyer CD just seems a little like pushed or cheesy to them or something, you know, or hanging out with fans afterwards and shaking their hand and asking for an email address might, might feel uncomfortable for them again, because they're wearing their heart on their sleeve, so to speak. Um, you know, I kind of understand that. And then for others, um, you know, they're, they're, they're really great at it. You know, they're, they're great at hanging out with fans and, and sending, you know, sending packages and sending photos and really kind of trying to, to get that one-on-one engagement. So, you know, I mean, here's the reality though, you guys, um, no one's going to come and save you, but yourself, you know, you really kind of have to take charge of your career, roll up your sleeves and make it happen. I mean, it's a proven fact that unless you're just one of those artists that gets lucky and puts out a video and it goes viral, uh, you know, you know, and then you put out another one, it goes viral. And, you know, you're young. You're young enough and cute enough that some producer decides to like sign you and, and work with you and make a record, you know, um, you're going to have to work for this. You know, you're going to have to use the tools out there. You're going to have to keep on doing this and you're going to really, really, you know, you have to really, really act as though, you know, you, you're more than a weekend warrior. You know, I mean, you know, are you a lifer or you just came out to Hollywood for a year to see if you're going to make it? You know what I mean? Uh, we need to be lifers, man. We need to be. We need to be troopers. We need to be in this fight for a long time or, or, or potentially you're not going to win. Yeah. You need to have. And I will tell you, man. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say, and I will tell you just on a close, on a, on a closing thought, you know, to this, uh, to this little rant, um, is that, uh, you know, I have noticed that the people that stay in the game or the people that succeed, I mean, literally I can tell you friends of mine. I went to Berkeley with that, you know, you just haven't heard anything from them for years. And they're just playing, you know, little holiday in gigs and stuff like that. And they just keep on playing and believing and believing and they make it their life. They're the real thing. It's their job. They're surviving. They're teaching. They're doing whatever to do. And then all of a sudden, bam, they get an audition. Next thing you know, they're the bass player or the drummer in a huge band, you know? Right. I'm like, holy crap, man. Good for you, dude. It took you 14 years, but you know what? Most people would bail and go back to law school after two years. Right. You know? Yeah. So you got to be for real, man. I mean, do you want to do this or is this a little three year, like, let's see if I can make it and be a star and then go back home and work at my dad's company? I mean, you have to kind of, you know, I mean, this is a tough business and it might take a while for you to get where you want to go. Yeah. And it's fun. There's the whole thing comes down to ultimately you have to have a motor. And it's funny how there's even now there's still these myths like Madonna was heard singing on a stoop somewhere. And well, she was, you know, someone signed her and she became a Donna. No, the thing that made that made Madonna was the fact that she kept pushing and she kept working, you know, worked her ass off. And it's still 30 years later, still doing it. It doesn't, the same thing that takes you from, I mean, like the example is let's, let's take someone. I'm thinking let's go local. Let's say Van Halen. You don't go from a garage in Pasadena to one of the biggest bands in the world. Unless you're driven to do it. It's not just like, well, they had a front man who can jump really high and do splits and man, they had that guitar player. I guarantee there are tons of amazing guitar players who we never heard of because they just didn't push. They didn't delay their gratification or they just didn't, they weren't lifers. They were just happy to do what is they were doing and then woke up one day and it just wasn't working anymore. So I do think there's this, you know, I've won the lottery kind of myth where people just luck into these long careers. But the example, you know, I'm not a big fan of the rock band. I'm not a big fan of the rock band. But the example, like I said, with say Madonna, it's that same motor that gets her signed in the first place takes her to being a household name in a matter of years and then is able to sustain that over decades. So yeah, you do. You have to have a motor and you have to make sure you're doing it. It's, um, I don't know. You may actually know who the quote was. It's, uh, now I'm going to botch it cause I'm trying to call, I'm trying to call back to it, but it's, um, a success is not, I think it's success is not for sale. It's a lease. It's a lease and rent is due every day. Some, some version of that. I'm messing it up and I can't think of who specifically said it, but the idea is there. You need to continue to work. It's no matter what it is. Cause you can go in the opposite direction. It's funny. You're right, man. You know, it's funny though. I can, I can, I'm anticipating some of your listeners out there right now going, ah, shut up and just give me the number of where I can like, you know, go and get the better gig. Come on. You know, somebody Atlantic records. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know what? I understand, man. Again, I totally understand. You know why? Because I was there. Um, and, uh, you know, again, I'm a musician first and foremost in the trenches, sleeping on the couches, sleeping in the warehouses, you know what I mean? Showering in the lakes, you know, it's just like, um, you know, I mean, listen, all this sounds like just a bunch of cheerleading, go, go, go, go, go, go, you know, and, and it can even piss people off because they're sitting there going, yeah, whatever. I just want to, you know, do this. But you know what? This is what it is, man. I mean, it's like, it's, it's all up to you. It really is. And as soon as I started believing that, and I just said, you know what, man, if I want this, then I just have to get it, you know, and I am just going to roll up my sleeves and I'm going to get it and I'm going to do whatever I have to do. And as soon as I stopped sort of expecting someone to come save me, you know, and I just thought about this. And logically, you know, how am I going to save myself? You know, um, eventually what happens is people go, wow, you know, look at that person really, really trying to do this. And then they, that, that energy is, is infectious and people start to come aboard, you know? So it's kind of like if we were on an Island and we're just all sitting around waiting for the big ship to come save us. And then all of a sudden we realized, look, you know, we could be sitting here forever. You know, we got to do something, you know? Um, it's essentially, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about here. So, you know, it's use the tools that are available and, um, be smart, be strategic and get out there and do it. Make sure to partner up with the right people. Um, you know, negativity is a disease. Uh, laziness is a disease, you know, try to find the right band members that are all going to have as much passion and all going to have the work ethic as you do. Um, sometimes that's really, really difficult to find. But, you know, I can see that a lot of bands, uh, in Hollywood and surrounding areas and, uh, you know, around the nation really are, um, you know, they're the fault of their own failure. You know, I mean, it's a, it's a faulty business from the start, you know, and it's going to all fall apart. You know, the band members hate each other. You know, one guy does all the work and resent the fact that the other guys don't do any work. You know, you got to run it like a company, you know, it's like a building with four different departments and it's everybody pulling their weight. You know, if you don't have that, you have nothing. You know, if you don't have solid songs, you have nothing. You know, these are the core building blocks that you really need to develop. Otherwise really you don't have anything. I have to say, if anybody who's listening is, is overwhelmed or is maybe looking at the book and saying like 300 pages, how am I going to get through that? Bobby writes, I believe it's weekly, uh, articles on sonicbids.com, which I highly recommend. So. I mean, I think it's a great way to get your tidbits of advice. Is that correct? Is it weekly for a sonic bids? Um, well it's a yes. I mean, I'd say yes. Just overall. I mean, it's going to be biweekly eventually. I mean, bi-monthly. It's just simply, um, um, it's very time consuming, but I don't just write for, uh, you know, the articles are showing up on billboard.com. They're showing up on hype bots.com. They're showing up on music. Think tank on, um, CD babies. Uh, DIY. Uh, site. I saw that. I got that in an email showing up on mine. Yeah. They're all over the place. Um, you know, of course these are a little, you know, it's like a, an appetizer at a restaurant, you know, you get a little bit of a taste and, uh, you know, and then, then, then you got to get the meal. So it's kind of meant to whet your appetite, of course. Yes. Get something. Yeah. Read it, read it. Digestible tidbit. If you feel, or listen to that, Hey everybody, it's part of what makes 2015 great. You can listen to this multiple times and really absorb what Bobby's saying. If it sounds intimidating, then keep this thing on your iPod and listen to it back a few times and really take in the message. If you are ready to commit to the book, but you absolutely shouldn't. Bobby Borg.com is where you want to go as well as following him on the various social media platforms, Facebook, Twitter, uh, Bobby Borg consulting is the Instagram handle and anything else you want to plug Bobby aside from the book, of course, that you get bobbyborg.com and Amazon. Well, you know, I mean, ultimately, uh, you know, to keep on listening to Chris's show, right? See, that's the message, man. I mean, listen, it's good. It's good. You know, I mean, you are, um, you know, a great, uh, you know, uh, show and vehicle where these guys can actually gain, you know, a lot of knowledge through your podcast and, you know, and people like you are out there trying to educate other musicians, which is, you know, which is a beautiful thing, you know? So. Yeah. So, uh, let's do a shout out to Chris. So let's keep on listening to Chris's podcast, you know, um, you know, uh, certainly if people are interested, you know, I teach courses at UCLA. So for those of you guys that are local, you can come onto campus in the spring. I teach music publishing and I also teach DIY music marketing. Um, and I also teach online as well. So you can, uh, anywhere around the world, you know, you can, uh, jump online and you can take some, some classes as well. Um, so, you know, just that, that might be an interesting thing for your readers to do, uh, as, uh, as well. Um, you know, so, uh, what else? Um, well, bobbyborg.com once again, go there, you can get all relevant links, uh, links to the book as well. Music marketing for the DIY musician, creating and executing a plan of attack on a low budget. Get it and read it. It's not going to come to you through osmosis folks. You're not gonna absorb the information by buying the book and then keeping it on your desk under a pile of mail. Okay. Buy the book, read, take your time with it. Like I said, it's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book. I admittedly didn't finish the book because there's a lot to absorb and you know what? I'm going to be taking my time to go through it because Hey, this operation, this show is do it yourself. And like I said, at the top of the show, I want to know what Bobby Borg knows. Bobby, thank you very much for calling in. Do appreciate your time and everything that you do. Thank you for, once again, putting all this information out there in a straight talk way that everybody can absorb. Yeah, man. Thank you. Definitely. And, you know, I want to let the readers know, you know, as part of this show, if you go to www.bobbyborg.com and you go to the store, you can grab the book and you can grab a, you know, a DVD that comes along with it as well, plus an audio CD. So you kind of get a nice little package that gets sent out to you. And, you know, just overall, you guys, just be smart about what you do. Kind of think about what you do because every day, every year is incredibly important. And you want to take good use because things get a little bit more complicated in your life as you get older. Yeah, they do. In terms of responsibilities. So you really got to capitalize on your window of opportunity when there's less distractions in your life. It doesn't get any easier. So keep on going. Rock on. You know, be smart. And thanks so much, man. You got it, Bobby. Thanks again for calling in. Okay, brother. Take care. Talk to you soon. All right, everybody. You've heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Let's say straight from experience from the trenches. Again, it all starts at bobbyborg.com. Go there and pick up the book. Look at the tools he has to offer. They're all there. And don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes. Give the show five stars. And. Make sure that you're tuning in every week live at 10. It's skid row studios.com. And catch up on the show during the week. Of course, chrisabalo.com. You can follow me on Twitter at Chris Abalo. And on Instagram at Chris sells out. And we're going out a song from a song Bobby played on ages ago from the band Beggars and Thieves. The song Beggars and Thieves. If you go to YouTube, you can even see Bobby playing drums and chatting on a payphone. For you people under 25. A payphone was an amazing invention where you can put a quarter in and talk to people on the phone. You have to carry a phone in your pocket. It's pretty incredible. Anyway, that's it for this week. Please tune in next week and subscribe. And thank you for listening. So until next time for Bobby Borg, this is Chris Abalo. And this was yet another experiment. We're living out our lives. It's not very healthy. So what's the plea? There is a need. So hard to believe. So hard to believe. There is a need. There is a need. Given the history of Spinal Tap Drummers, in the past, do you have any fears for your life? Do you need any advice on what you need to do? Do you need any advice on what you need to do? Do you need any advice on what you need to do?