LAPD officers discuss addiction and recovery

Thank you. That's a fair question because on this show, every question is a fair question. There is absolutely no question that is ever too personal or ever off limits. And tonight, I am very excited. I have brought in law enforcement. I brought in the backups. I feel very protected here on Skid Row. I have with us tonight two guys with an incredible story. They are with the Los Angeles Police Department, although they're not representing the police department. They're only representing themselves and their experiences in life and some of the work they've done in their professional life, but in no means are they an actual official representative. And I'm talking to and with Brody Seagrave and Gus Marroquin. Close enough. Just tell me, how do I say it? I want to say it right. Marroquin. Marroquin. Okay, the first question I have. Roll those R's, Rick. He's good, yeah. He's good. Yeah, you're much better at it than I am. So first of all, thank you guys for coming. It's great to have you. You're welcome. Yes, now the first question I have is a simple one. Are you guys packing heat? Look how quiet it got. Is that right? Yes. Really? Is it because you were feeling that perhaps I would be threatening here in the studio? You're concerned? No question. I love it. Is this too personal to ask? No, not at all. It got very quiet in here. Not at all. So it is fair to say you guys are armed. Yeah, I mean the bottom line is, so someone sticks a gun in my face or your face as you're letting us in the door to come in. I mean, wouldn't it make sense to take all the training and experience that I've gotten over the last 17 years and Gus has gotten over the last 19 years and put that to work? No, I know. I just get scared about guns. Do you guys get scared of guns? I mean, that may sound like insane, that question. No, Vic. We don't get scared about guns. Gus? Not at all. Not at all. No? I feel better because I have it. Uh-huh. Okay, good. So, I'm not armed, by the way, in case you were wondering. So I'm relying on you two to completely protect me. Okay? So now, Brody, you've been with the LAPD for how long? There might be a search later, just so you know. Oh, I was hoping. But I'll be doing the searching. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What kind of show is this? It is a fair game. Fair question. So, how long? You've been 17 years, is that correct? Yes. Okay. And Gus, how about you? 19 years and the end of the month. 19 years? Yes. Okay. And how do you two guys know each other? Have you worked together on the police force? A very interesting tale that I think Brody would probably be best at explaining. Okay, Gus, we'll let Brody tell us. We have an internal network within our organization. Where? Where we have police officers that are in recovery, you know, from alcohol, from, in some cases, prescription medication, but basically, you know, legal substances, but we're recovering alcoholics, prescription medication addicts, that are willing and able and available to step in to helping, you know, other officers that might have an issue, might have a substance abuse problem. So, when I met Gus, I was kind of on that list. Sort of like a, not a secret list, but it's not an official list, if you will. And some folks that work this internal unit, the employee assistance unit with LAPD, they gave Gus my name and number, and ultimately, we connected and I stepped in to helping him with his journey of recovery. So Gus, you were dealing with what kind of addiction? Yeah. In very deep, on a deep personal level. Yeah. I was dealing with a lot of alcohol abuse issues that, you know, now, with a little bit over six years of sobriety, I understand is that I was completely in denial about, as far as the troubles that I was getting into because of the common denominator of alcohol. What was going on that, like, have you always been drinking, has the problem always been a drinking for you, like prior to getting your job with E-Force? Well, I can say in my past experience, just in having to analyze my life and sobriety now, and even going to treatment at the E-Force. I think I was a little bit more confident at the suggestion of the people that Brody mentioned that worked at the specialized unit that yes, you know, alcohol really throughout my life has been the common denominator of the problems in my life. You know, there was never a time where I got in trouble that alcohol wasn't involved and that's a pretty clear picture, but it isn't until you really hit bottom or getting a lot of trouble that you understand, you can understand that. What was your bottom? My bottom was basically being arrested for driving under the influence by the city of Glendale while a member of the Los Angeles Police Department. So that's a pretty, for a guy that's been accustomed to enforcing the law, arresting other people for similar type offenses, it's a bottom. So now, Gus, I'm trying to think what that must feel like. It's got to be worse than if your dad busted you. Like, because what was going through your head? I would be thinking, I'll just talk my way out of this. We're buddies. We're on the same team. Right. And you know, we were in the same law enforcement team, but it's a different city. So what was going through my mind at the exact moment was I thought my goose was gone. I thought my goose was cooked, for the lack of a better term, because I had already been in trouble that the department was aware of with alcohol, you know, issues with alcohol in the past. And I thought that this was the time that the department was going to say that I was, you know, damaged goods, you know, and I couldn't be employed as a police officer any longer. So this was your second offense? Well, not second DUI, but it was a second major offense that involved alcohol, you know, that I had gotten in trouble. So now, this was a DUI, though, this particular case? Yeah. And I'm going to clarify for anybody that's listening, you know, although we are— Everyone's listening. Although we are a law enforcement fraternity, I was not given any favors that night. And I'll be honest with you, I'm glad I wasn't now, because had I been, who knows what would have happened, how much more trouble I could have gotten into. I mean, it's a weird way to say it, but ultimately, I didn't like going through what I was going through, getting handcuffed, being seated in the backseat of a car, getting claustrophobic, wondering what's going to happen, if I'm going to have my job tomorrow, face my brother, who's a police officer, my other brother, who's a CHP officer, my mom. My mom, who's proud of a son, who was a sergeant at the time. Your mom, who's what? My mom, who was proud of me as a sergeant at the time. Oh, you were a sergeant. Now, a sergeant is a high-level officer, right? Yeah, it's a supervisor. It's not entry-level. I mean, there's a lot of responsibility. Right, a lot of responsibility. So all this is going through your head as you're in the backseat? All of that. It's all gone. And you know, the crazy thing today is I understand that that's not what it's all about. Today, it's all about life and living sober and being able to help others. It isn't about the status that I have, the nice house that I live in, the nice car that I drive. It's about— It's totally irrelevant. I'm just kidding. A decent home. I'm just kidding you. Yeah, go on. Being a better father, being a better son, brother, partner, all that stuff. It's not about things. Right. It's about relationships and love and that kind of stuff. That's what I'm hearing. Absolutely. And I'm more concerned about losing that today than I am about the things that I was when I was getting arrested, so. Well, yeah, and now here's where I wish we had known each other, because I would have gotten you out of that DUI. If you had said, Vic, this is what's going on. Here's the excuse I would have used. I know your head—you feel blasphemy. You've been arrested and all that, but here's how you could have gotten out of it. You would have said, listen, you know, I am an officer and I'm trying to experience what it's like on the other side to make me a better officer. This is just an experiment. Did you think about doing that? No. No, that wouldn't have worked. Okay, yeah. I see. And this is why I never get out of tickets. This kind of thinking, it doesn't work. So were you suicidal in that backseat? Were you thinking this is it? I don't even want to live? Let me even mention that. I wasn't suicidal that moment, but I will say this, and I've shared this. I just shared it tonight at a meeting in Los Feliz. This is, okay, a recovery type meeting. A recovery, yeah. My issue has never been when I hit my bottom that I want to take my own life, but I thought that not living was a good alternative, which is kind of like the same thing, but I didn't want to do the deed either. But I knew all the shame, guilt, anger, disbelief, all that stuff that I had going on inside me, that the only way that I could turn that off is if I never woke up again. Did you think you didn't have a problem until that VUI? Essentially, yeah. I mean, you keep hitting that rung, you keep getting hit in the head going in that door. You just don't understand that the common denominator in your problems is alcohol when you're an alcoholic. And until you hit bottom, until you go get help, until you meet people like Brody, until things are explained to you in a manner that you can understand them very, very plainly, because I'm not a dumb guy. It makes perfect sense to me. The big problem in my life was alcohol, and I'm an alcoholic. That's the bottom line. And whether it had taken me that night, if I decide I want to drink again, it'll take me even lower if it has to. I'll get arrested again. I will lose my job. I will lose the faith and hope of my family. I might go into despair where I want to take my life now, not necessarily just not wake up anymore. Because I've heard too many open and honest shares of people that really care about me and about people getting sober. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, that I believe it. Well, often with addicts, there's a cross addiction. So how do you safeguard yourself from not falling into another addiction, whether it be shopping, gambling, or, you know, a drug? You know, I'll be honest with you. I don't, I'm not as schooled in it as Brody is as far as, you know, the cross addiction aspect of it. I'll be honest with you. I was the guy that could not believe that I'm an alcoholic, man. I still share to this day that maybe I'll be able to someday drink again like a normal, you know, human being, like we kind of say in the meetings. That's just the alcoholism talking to me only because I didn't, you know, I have, everybody seems to have a perception of what an alcoholic is. And I just wasn't that image, man. I wasn't, I was, you know, like a functional alcoholic, I guess. I hadn't lost a whole lot of things, but it's coming, it's on its way. Right, in a way you're lucky that it was just, not just, but you didn't hurt anyone. Cause then you could have lost your job, right? I mean, if there had been manslaughter or some kind of, I don't know if it's the right term manslaughter, but. It is. It is vehicular manslaughter cause you're not, you don't mean to do it, but you do it and because you're responsible and they're unfortunately, or fortunately, however you look at it, you know, I always love to say that alcoholism is an explanation for my actions. It's not an excuse. You know, there has to be consequences no matter what, so. Now, just so I have the picture here, you end up hitting bottom, you get a DUI in Glendale. And if you don't know Los Angeles, it's a suburb kind of around Los Angeles. It's neighboring Los Angeles. It's very close. And you are given a number from someone within the department who said, why don't you call this guy and get some help? Basically. And that guy is Brody? Yeah, basically. Long story short, Sergeant Marroquin at the time, you probably definitely have a problem with alcohol. You're a sergeant, but this is them talking to you. Yeah, you probably need to go back to employee assistance, revisit whether you think you have a problem with alcohol and get some help. And I did ultimately, you know, at first, like I said, I even share this today. Selfishly, I did it to, you know, get the heat off of my back. But the really glorious, awesome part of my story is that it took in me, despite those selfish feelings in the beginning, just to turn everybody away from me being a problem. I'll do whatever you want of me. The miracle of my recovery is that it stuck. You know, I believe that I'm an alcoholic. I believe I need to remain sober. I'm happy that I am. My life has changed in miraculous ways. I don't have any worry in my life. Because everything that I do is usually on the right side of, you know, that line. It's been sick over six years? It's been six years, five months, two weeks, and a couple of days, but I'm not counting. Now, Brody, you've had your own experience with this challenge too, correct? I mean, that's how Gus here ends up with your phone number, right? I mean, not only do you have an education in addiction, but you've had some personal experience in this area, correct? So what did you... What were the things that you gave to Gus? Some thoughts when he makes that call to you, that first call? Do you remember back to that conversation? Yeah, well, Gus had already... He'd already done some work. He'd already gone to treatment. So he'd already been... He already... What is treatment? He went to like a rehab, to a residential treatment program to... Like you live there 24 seven for a certain period of time. How long were you there? 30 days. Okay. And then you left sober. Yeah. And then that began the path with you? Right. He left that, I think it was seven, eight months before we connected, right? He'd been given my card and just never made the phone call. And then six, seven months, eight months later. Now, just to be clear... He kind of just was able to stay sober, just kind of, you know, I don't want to say white knuckling it, right? But he just was like staying sober, trying to stay out of trouble. When we connected, I worked on really just helping him step deeper into a 12 step type of recovery, right? Going to meetings, working the 12 steps, beginning to become of service to other police officers, other people in general. Getting out, being of... Okay. Right. Not focusing on him, but focusing on others, I guess. Right? Yeah. And I don't quite understand why it works that way, but there's just this interesting, it's almost like a noble truth or a spiritual truth. It seems as if within the world, it seems as if within the world, the world of addiction, the common experiences, if you're willing to step into helping other people, my experience is that I'm reflected in their eyes is my own addictive disorder, my own alcoholism, my own prescription medication addiction. And I just seem to think that I can control those things less and that I want to use those less. That's the rub. Okay. That's the rub. Couple questions. How does your name end up on a business card that gets in Gus's hand? Were you part of a special part of the police department that was dealing with addicted officers? Yeah. So at the time there was a police officer that was her sole function, is was working with other officers like Gus. I had come out of the closet for lack of a better term, a couple years before I met Gus. And let's be clear when you say out of the closet, you're strictly talking about the drinking. I'm talking about, I came out of the closet as far as providing training, for basically, hey, I'm a recovering alcoholic. Here's what that looks like. Here's what happened to me. Here's what to look like. Here's what to look for with other officers. I started basically giving training to our peer counselors. And also I started going to- What are peer counselors? Peer counselors are police officers or civilian employees with our organization that are given specific training in suicide issues, financial counseling, divorce, alcohol, substance abuse issues. Those are called peer? They're called peer counselors. And is that their full-time job? In addition to working in the street or whatever? It's just sort of a philanthropic, down for the cause, 40 hour training course that officers go to, because you don't necessarily want to go to a psychologist as a police officer. We have sort of an inherent lack of trust of the therapeutic community. Why is that? I think frankly, it's because when we get an officer involved shooting, or we get, we see a bunch of people burned to death in a car, we end up getting a call from the police officer. We end up getting sent to a department psychologist who basically kind of clears us psychologically for duty. So it's- In other words, they have, an outside psychologist doesn't have the credentials to within the, I would say, I don't say bureaucracy, but that is what it is, right? To get you back on the street and working? Right, well, with our department, we actually have 13 in-house police psychologists and they're great. They've got a lot of great insight. And there's very few police officers that go in to see them. And they take their gun and take them out of full duty. But there's a natural sort of fear. And I think a resentment, a lack of trust. Like who is a psychologist that wants to pick my brain about what happened? I mean, the bottom line is a person pointed a gun at me. I shot him, they died, end of story. It was an unfortunate situation, but I was doing my job, right? So I think that's where the bias is. And I think that's where the bias, if you will, comes from. And it's not across the board. It's not widespread, right? There's some of us that are okay with going and speaking to our police psychologists. And sometimes we go in and see them voluntarily. Okay, now I'm gonna be honest. You guys are kind of bumming me out, okay? Now here's the deal. When I think of police officers, okay? I think of guys and women driving around in cars, getting very excited when they get a call, driving very fast, being confident when they talk to you. Redlights. Right. Really kind of on the move. Adrenalin pumping. Only we're better at talking ourselves out of tickets than you are. Yeah, right. I'm sure. Except to DOI. Right? Whenever you talk to DOI. No, that's a tough one evidently. But what I'm hearing here is like there's like a lot of angst, a lot of heaviness. Is this part of the job just for you two various degrees? Or is it just because we're talking about it so specifically now I'm getting that feeling? I mean, we deal with 5% of the population at best that are engaged in 95% of the worst of the behavior that's in society. People don't call us when good things happen. I'm going to start. People call us when bad things happen. I mean, I remember there was a call in the police division where I work about a year and a half ago and a guy who was taking bath salts, you know, and people sometimes become psychotic. And he actually started eating his girlfriend. And that doesn't even sound like a real story, right? It was a real story. May I ask you one question? Did he start at the feet or the head? He started eating her face. Really? See, I would have started with the feet. Not because I love feet, but I would want to kind of work my way up. Right. But go on. I think you may be either too many zombie movies or you were one in a former life. No, I never thought about this, but that's how I would do it. So I guess what I'm saying is that there's some incredibly difficult things that the heroic men and women of this police organization and many others see before most people have breakfast on a regular basis. Incredibly- You were there, you saw this? I wasn't there that day, but I've seen my own share in 17 years. And- And Gus has seen his own share in 19 years. So I think the very nature of what we do, most people don't really understand. I'm not trying to like, you know, throw a pity party for us, but- Right. But inherently, there is a tremendous amount of inherent trauma in what we do. Because you're human beings. Right, right. You're not robots. Yeah. And part of what's tricky about that though, is in the midst of that chaos and that pain and that suffering and man's inhumanity to man, we have to remain in a place that's unemotional. That's able to stay as objective as possible. That's able to get the mission done of completing the investigation, of making the arrests, of taking people into custody. So it's almost like the expectation is that you shut down, right? So that you shut down emotionally while you're doing your job. So our peer counseling program encourages officers to, hey, go and talk to this other officer. You don't have to talk to the psychologist. But if you want to talk to the psychologist, that's confidential and you'll probably feel better if you do. So, and a lot of our officers go and they speak to our police psychologists, because it's free. These are all PhD psychologists. They're great. They've got great hearts. They could be working in the private sector, making a lot more money. Instead, they're showing up to the office in Koreatown every day, taking care of business, helping those that help others. I don't want to retraumatize you, but I am just voyeuristically curious, and I would be remiss not to ask, because I know you at home or wherever you are listening, want to hear perhaps one of those stories that you just can't, that are like, do you have something, again, if it's too much, don't bring it up. I don't want to upset you emotionally, but you're just like, what? That couldn't, like, I'd be like, what? No, you got to be kidding. Like, you know, I have a story like that, but I'm not an officer, but you know, in my own, once I was a TV reporter, which I don't want to share, because that's not what this is about, but in your line of work, you must have like stories like that from, you know, a lot of those kinds of stories. Sure. Done. So I, yeah, I mean, I was involved in a radio call in 2001. There was a help call in a neighboring division from where I was working. The help call was a Newton division, and I was working 77th division at the time. And a lot of people may not know where that is. These are police divisions in South Los Angeles. South Los Angeles is a high crime area, correct? It's the high crime area. Highest crime area. In the United States or in Los Angeles? One of the highest crime areas in the United States. Did you choose to work there? I do. That's where I work now. Because the mission is more challenging there. Don't you want to be safe? Well, I get that. I think that arguably the amount of vehicle pursuits and uses of force and the amount of investigations that result in officers having to use force or officers, you know, in being in some kind of jeopardy, that's so repetitive down there that I think ultimately officers, our tactics there are, I don't want to say better, but we're regularly engaging in difficult tactical police operations. And you enjoy that? Well, and the officers, they have a lot of experience. They're very good at that. So I feel safer working in an area where officers are going in pursuit on a regular basis. Officers are chasing robbery suspects down an alley and setting up a perimeter on a regular basis than I would feel, you know, working, you know. Than sitting in eight nails and having coffee in Beverly Hills? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So I pulled you away from your story. You're working in a division in the South? So there was a help call in a neighboring division and- Help call, meaning an officer needs help? Exactly. Okay. So, and there was a man that had, that had shot his wife in the face as a result of, you know, some domestic violence issues and, I don't know, a belief of, her cheating, I believe is what the issue was. And then, but then the really strange thing is he just started shooting people on the street. He just started shooting people. Like he just went, he just went crazy. Like he shot her, she ended up dying. And then he just started shooting other people. So when I had gotten there, he had barricaded himself. He had shot her. And then he just started shooting other people. So when I got to the back of the house in a little shed and we weren't sure exactly where he was and you know, officers were all over the place and pointing guns and trying to determine where he was. And I was, I was a part of an evacuation. So I was evacuating some children from an apartment building right next to where he was. And I'm holding the hands of these little kids. They're probably five years old. And I'm holding their hands that I'm, I walk by the driveway. And this suspect is like in the back of the driveway basically in this shed area in the back of the driveway. And he's just being held back in the back of the driveway. And he's yard. I don't see him. I'm focused on just getting these kids safely to where I need to get them. As soon as I passed the driveway, he started shooting down the driveway at an officer that was across the street that was kind of holding the outer perimeter or more like the inner perimeter of this crime scene area in this tactical operation where we were looking to find the suspect and ultimately make the area safe to evacuate people. And K-9 was on their way. The SWAT team was already on their way. But the regular rank and file officers were taking care of the initial business of what we needed to do to make the situation as safe as we could. And I often wonder, did he not shoot at me because I had the kids? That was what I've always wondered about that. And ultimately, Metropolitan Division went into that location searching for him about a half hour later and he opened fire on them. They fired multiple rounds at him. And then ultimately, he was... Found about three hours later, SWAT showed up and they brought their robot in. The robot basically went into the shed and then was able to see that he had passed away. He took his shoes off and put them behind his head. And then he just kind of crawled up in this fetal position and just bled to death. What, he shot himself? No, he was shot multiple times from these officers that returned fire. And it just kind of... The rounds just went right through the shed. You saw him? I didn't see him. That was what was... In the debrief, that was what was explained to us as far as what had happened. I just remember, how could you get to that point? What's so tough is they're kind of like the guy that was on basalts and was feeding on his girlfriend's face. You just, you ask yourself, how... This was somebody's child at some point. This was somebody that was a freshman in high school at some point. How do you go from that to just completely losing your humanity? And those are the things that you see that if you don't have a spiritual practice, which we do, thankfully, gratefully, right? If you don't have a spiritual practice, if you're not talking to anybody, if you're shutting down, if you're leaving work and just drinking and watching whatever stupid thing is on television that night, it can begin to really wear you down your humanity thick. That's what this job can do. If you're not in touch with how to stay healthy, you're not going to be able to do that. So, you know, I think it's important to be healthy and to take care of yourself in all the ways that we do that. Family, you know, Gus is very close to his family. They spend a lot of time together, you know, and that's so beautiful. I have so much respect for that, the way that he honors his family and how close they are. You know, and he plays on the department softball team and he's very active in that. And, you know, I have my own spiritual practice and my family and my exercise regimen and the 12-step meetings that we both go to. I think we're blessed because we have those benefits. Not just because we're doing it for the family, but because we're doing it for the family. Not just because we're doing it for the family, but because we're doing it for the family. Not just because we're doing it for the family. So if you had taken a job perhaps as a lawyer or something, I mean, there's no way to know for sure, but this path in what you do has kind of led you perhaps to more of a spiritual life, would you say? Or in other words, these challenges have been blessings in some way, would you say? I think because of the stuff that I was exposed to. I remember this girl that got hit by a car. She was hit and killed by an illegal alien that was driving his wife who was going into labor while he was drunk on Christmas Eve in 1997 or 1998. And he crashed into this beautiful young Puerto Rican American girl in her Honda Civic and killed her. And I remember, you know, looking down at her body and just, she's there one minute, she's gone the next. But my point is, I think being exposed to some of the stuff that I was exposed to and early in my career, I wanted to self-medicate. I wanted to be a part of the process. I wanted to self-medicate. I wanted to drink more because I would go home, you know, I would go out with the guys afterwards and I would drink. I would drink to deal with that. I would drink to deal with those things. And for me, when I drink alcohol, I have an allergic reaction and that reaction is more, right? I don't have an off switch. And Gus is the same way. So I think in a way to answer your question, I think that the bottom that I hit, I was able to hit sooner probably because I was a police officer. When did you hit your bottom? How old were you? 26. I was only two years on. You were two years in the force? I was a police officer for two years. Okay. LAPD. Yes. And do you believe it that you'd always been an alcoholic? I knew that I'd had a problem for a number of years. I didn't really believe that I was really an alcoholic until I hit my bottom. And then, you know, I got a sponsor and got into my own outpatient program and went to see the police psychologist who at the time happened to be recovering alcoholic gift, another gift of another person. Another serendipitous gift of my experience in my early recovery. And then I really started to get as a result of the work I was doing that alcohol is not my friend and it's never going to be. What was your bottom? My bottom, I was handling a call of this World War II veteran and this call, this World War II veteran in Van Nuys in 1997. He's got all of his medals out on the floor in front of him. And he's sitting in a rocking chair and he's got a bottle of vodka. And there's a, he's got a nine millimeter Luger in his hand when we got there, right? Is that a handgun? Yeah, it's a German handgun, right? That they sometimes would get off of German soldiers. I assume that's what happened. Wow. So this is literally like a piece of history. And he's wearing his uniform. He was in the army. He was wearing his army uniform. And there was a blood, there was a blood spatter pattern. Wow. Right? Like the Dexter would have found interesting. Yeah. That was on the wall because he had put a self-inflicted gunshot wound in his head and basically, you know, blown all this, his blood on the wall. And then, so a couple months later, I'm drinking late at night thinking about my father and how he'd been killed when I was in the, when I was in the- Well, hold on. You can't just drop that and say, and then your father was killed? My father was killed when I was in the police academy. So were you 24 at that point? I was 24. Yeah. So two years before my father had been killed. So, so I, so flash forward a couple of weeks after I handled this death investigation of this veteran, you know, this tragic death investigation. Now we're at 26. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sitting there drinking Jack Daniels at night, late at night, listening to some sad music, thinking about my dad cleaning my gun. And I finished cleaning it. I put it around in the chamber. I put it to my head. I cocked the hammer. I put my finger on the trigger. And I start to, I start to press. And a little voice in my head says, Brody, you probably wouldn't have a nine millimeter Beretta pointed at your head if you weren't drunk on Jack Daniels. And that was September the 4th of 1998. That was the moment of clarity. Because at that moment, I thought of that, that, that army veteran, that 87 year old army veteran that shot himself in the head. And I thought to myself, if you're 26 and you're putting a gun to your head, that's not going to be a good thing. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to go to jail. And then when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got to 87, when I got were there any repercussions at work were things happening um at the workplace or do people even know you had an issue there were there were people within the internal unit that helped gus and helped me get sober right there were people in that unit that that knew that knew what was going on that i had already gone to see in fact there was a there was a roll call training that i had gone to basically like you know like hill street blues you show up and they give you your assignment when you first come in right i'd shown up to a roll call a few months before that and a sergeant smelled alcohol on me and sent me to a guy named keith moreland who's now a chief of police in colorado but he sent me to this sober cop to basically talk to me about what was going on they don't mess around do they well he could have put me on a pass device he could have made me blow and then initiated a personnel complaint he actually sent me and kind of like gus said he's sent me in and i went and saw this guy but i kept drinking right well that was i wasn't really held accountable but luckily that sergeant helped to get me some help and this sergeant that i went to see an employee assistance unit really planted the seed for me and a couple months later i had a greater awakening a moment of clarity of my alcoholism and then ultimately i was really ready to just to stop and take care of business so for you it was a near-death experience that ultimately had you see some clarity yeah yeah what was the voice where do you think that came from that still small voice that's in all of us you know that creative intelligence that infinite source however you want to describe you know your higher power those are some ways that i describe mine now you are both you guys are really uh sensitive you're like self-aware you're not really what one would describe you as a person you're not really what one would describe you as a person you're not really what one would describe you as a person you're not really what one would imagine a police officer to be because like there's such a sense of bravado and machismo and all those other kind of words you know tough guy is there is it incongruous to be feel like to have both in a way or i mean i think it's more of a man to have both but do you ever question that like god i'm this is so i don't know soft and really and i love it but i'm you know you're a tough looking guy guys no offense to you brody because i haven't shaved in a couple of weeks but that's don't don't let that fool you i mean you're talking about spiritual awakening and you know i mean yeah well that's i mean just to you know add to your point i haven't always been that way that's the bottom line if you'd have met me six years five months three weeks ago it'd be a totally different gus that you'd be talking to who would i be talking to probably probably wouldn't want to be sitting here talking about you know these deep bleep personal issues that i've dealt with um there's a reason why it's called anonymous you know that's 12-step program uh but i think it's more important for me to to get ahead of that a little bit and put my ego aside not worry about what people think of me because i am a sensitive guy uh brody i seem to always apologize for my sensitivity and brody always reminds me not to do that because like you just mentioned victor it probably makes you a better man to be able to show that sensitive side or as i was raised completely different you know hispanic man tough father but don't ever show emotion don't ever show fear don't ever show uh that you're uh gonna cry or anything of that nature weakness and that's the gus you would have met would have been a guy that was standoffish that probably wouldn't want to have this interview with you probably wouldn't want to add anything uh would wonder why you're asking him these questions you know uh and probably wouldn't have come up you know and done this for you know uh for the program to be honest with you but it's about it's a totally different gus now it's and it's a it's a life transfer experience it's not just being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident being confident drinking i couldn't imagine it not drinking anymore age of 36 come on all the fun i had had with alcohol are you kidding me but i i'm a listener i'm a sponge i also i'm a smart guy absorb things uh because of my emotion that i i have that's inherent in me from my mother not my dad when people spoke to me emotionally in recovery and that the 30-day program that i went to and meetings that i went out to after and speaking to brody and introducing myself to him and him telling me his deep story his personal story i began to become a believer i began to to see that these it's not about people trying to trick us into joining some cult and not drinking anymore it's about life man it's about there's a bigger purpose here and it's about you being around for the people that love you and care for you now gus did you grow up in los angeles born and raised in server lake hollywood where are your parents from my mom and dad were both born in guatemala so i'm uh i was born i was the only i'm the youngest of four brothers i was born here in the united states and uh you know back in the late 60s early 70s it was a lot easier for families to come here if they wanted to come here with green cards and establish work and families and all that stuff and that's how my three older brothers came with my mom and dad what was a man in your eyes growing up as a little boy and as a young man the my image was my dad you know hard working uh i'll be honest with you you know i love my dad death and i have issues with you know his death and how he died he died of cancer which is a legitimate disease that nobody denies in this world right but alcoholism will take you just as easily as cancer will and it does even more so and quickly yeah absolutely or slowly and that's very painful like cancer the lucky ones go quickly that's what we hear in the in the meetings the ones that have to suffer through all the other stuff are the ones that aren't so lucky but uh my dad was a very stoic man you know very again strong-willed uh he had four boys but he raised us like we were four girls man we couldn't date we couldn't do anything we could all we had there's no going to the parties the dances uh my i knew my dad loved me because he put food on the table for me but not because he hugged me and told me he loved me all the time my mom did that so your dad wasn't uh because it wasn't the soft feely touchy touchy feely kind of guy right and probably because what vic because that's how his dad was with him yeah and also isn't it a cultural thing yeah absolutely absolutely but you know i'm not that i i love my dad to death and how he raised us because he needed to probably four males in those times and none of us got in trouble with with gangs or drugs or anything like that uh but i'm the complete opposite with my daughter you know uh as far as you know how my dad raised me and it's nice you know it's it's cool that's the way it should be i think you know so you let her have a little bit of uh space a little space and it's it's i tell her i love her every day every day i tell her i love her there's not a day that goes by do you mean absolutely i'm kidding i can see you mean so yeah i mean but what uh you know i mean that's i don't know we we we all want our kids to have more and better than we we had right when we grew up and uh of course my daughter has more than uh like financially than i had with two struggling parents you know trying to raise four kids but uh my daughter also has more love more the more the acknowledgement of love from her father than you know then i didn't and it's not doesn't mean i don't love my dad and i don't miss him dearly but because that's just the way that he had to raise us so now thank you for sharing that brody you you trapped a little thing in your story and then we kind of walked away from it and like you said your dad was killed and you know then my ears perk up because that's something that you gotta ask i gotta i mean what happened my dad was in the cia he was killed in 1997 in china he was in the cia you know you sound like like a officer or a cop in a in a tv series you should see a lot of the things that we see if you wrote it and then put it in a in a in a in a tv show people be like that's so stupid that would never happen but your dad was really a cia was he an operative as they say like an agent he was uh he was a field agent yeah so he uh he did um uh heroin eradication is what they called it for for a number of years in the 60s where they would go in and and they would uh they would basically use ground intelligence they would they would use villagers to find out where they were processing opium into heroin and then they would uh then they'd call in airstrikes and tell tell their informants not show up that day who were the uh strikes being carried out by dea the drug enforcement or federal or we don't we can't talk about it because well i mean the i mean the military people i mean the strikes would come the military u.s military yeah but the the cia was was calling in the strikes huh yeah so he did that and he spied on the chinese for for many for many years my dad spoke mandarin chinese thai french and english he was a pretty interesting guy all at the same time and no one could understand what he was saying but it was kind of impressive only when he was drunk was he pretty good at ordering at the chinese restaurant he ate all those foods so when we would go to chinese restaurants the the all of the wait staff would come like all of the chefs and cooks they would all come out and stand around in a semi-circle and like clap their hands and have this amazing look of glee on their faces they watched my dad speak mandarin chinese this is when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated when he was being treated Well, that's cool because now, so you have citizenship in Taiwan, correct? I guess if I was crazy enough to want to apply for citizenship in China, I could. How many languages do you speak? I speak a little Spanish and English poorly. No, I've understood almost everything you've said. It's been wonderful. Your English is great. So I speak like 1.5, I guess you would say. So your father, that's very dramatic. I mean, that seems like not even believable. I mean, I believe you, but you only hear about CIA people and movies and speaking multiple languages and living all over the world. Did he wear a trench coat? I have to ask. Like a black trench coat and- Only on Thursdays. Was he a good looking guy? I can imagine. My doubt, he was handsome. Like a James Bond-ish kind of- He was larger than life. He was a powerful guy. I just imagine this guy, he can speak all these languages. He's, you know, but I always thought CIA agents can't say what they do. I didn't know what my dad did until I was 18. And then ultimately, the sense that I had is that he was working in the private sector and he was not really still working for the CIA. But then it was strange that, you know, six years later, after he had apparently left, he gets killed in China and they just find him dead in a hotel room. So it was definitely, we don't know exactly what happened, but it was definitely- Maybe you're not investigating. Yeah, you know, it's just one of those things. It's just one of those things. It's just one of those things. You accept. It's interesting. My aunt and uncle at the time were both in the CIA and they talked to the State Department and ultimately they were told, hey, you know, we don't have any information. And, you know, if we had information, we wouldn't give it to you. And that is just another level. If you saw Zero Dark Thirty, you know, I was never in the CIA, but I definitely know, have some insight from what my father talked about, the kind of sacrifices that they make. And in many cases, you never find out about stuff. My dad used to talk about the fact that he never knew what happened with his intelligence. Like when they would gather intelligence or do things, he would never know where it went because everything was so secretive on their different levels of supervision and management. So I think that was frustrating for him because you didn't necessarily know. Sometimes you knew what the outcome was of a situation. But my point is the men and women of, you know, the NSA, the CIA, about 60% of the FBI now is working in counterterrorism. International and domestic terrorism. Those folks, they're engaged in a very difficult and in some cases, thankless mission. And we should be very grateful regardless of constitutional issues, right? Which obviously we have to be concerned about as well. But we should be very grateful for the sacrifices that those people make, many of which we will never know about. Now, I'm going to take a little of a right turn here. And I was curious, we're talking about your father and that got me thinking, about both of your marital status. Not for my own interest. I'm not interested in either of you. TMI. Okay, just making sure you're clear what I said coming out of the closet. I meant as a recovering alcoholic with the organization. But I mean, you are a handsome man, Vic. I am, thank you. When Vic said that he'd start at the woman's feet, I knew that there might be a, you know, I thought you were going somewhere else with that. No, I love women and I love the feet of all of them. Okay. Please don't. I just thought you'd start somewhere else though. That's all. Oh no, I was trying to, I was trying to, I'd like to, you know, be a bit of a tease. Okay, there you go. Yeah, I don't like to just go right for it. That says a lot about you. Yeah, I know how to take care of a lady, Gus. Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much. Now that we've completely digressed. I'm a great lover, Gus. Okay. Just ask, we always ask you, right? I'm very good. I really am. All right. Awesome, awesome. So what's, what are your- Thanks for that. Yeah, sure. What are your marital status right now? I got divorced 10 years ago. Okay. Okay. That Brody 10 years ago, you divorced? What about you, Gus? Never married. I was engaged once. I have a 21-year-old daughter. That's why he's smarter than me. He was never married. Right. I got divorced 10 years ago. So my status is, I guess, single. Do you, Brody, find that the career, the stereotype of you were too married to the job and that kind of thing we see in movies and TV around police officers? I don't think it's a stereotype. I think it's an incredibly difficult balance that the police officers, I think in today's society, being married in general is a really tough balance for people with just the economic need to be working at the level that people need to work and the amount of hours that we work compared to our grandparents and great-grandparents. But I think especially, you know, police officers, it's tough, you know, firefighters, emergency room nurses, emergency room personnel in general, the kind of schedules, the weird hours, that sense that you want to shut down when you get home, right, like you just, okay, I'm done, I'm shut down. It's hard to stay emotionally open in this field. And so, and I think what a husband or a wife needs when you go home is on some level to be emotionally open. Obviously, we don't want to tell them about how, you know, some crazy zombie, you know, chewed some woman's face off, right? But on some level, talking about how we feel about what we see is important and very difficult. A lot of us just don't do it. I think over time, we become more and more polarized from that person that we're supposed to be having each other's back and really sharing our innermost secrets. And then it becomes that it's just, you know, it's like kind of a stranger situation. You know, you guys are really sensitive. I mentioned that a little earlier. Are you sure you want to keep doing this job? Like maybe you guys should change careers and do something a little less, but insane that so like you're seeing such bad things. You're, I mean, you're really bright, both you guys. Like why continue doing this? Well, I mean, here's the thing that. I mean, I'm grateful you do because I'm too scared. But for several, for several reasons. One, you know, like a deputy chief that I've worked for on and off for a number of years. It's, this is the greatest job in the world. You know, we get to play cops and robbers, but for real, we get to go out and work to protect little old ladies that, you know, some idiot comes up to them and tries to steal their purse and knocks them down. And we get to go out and constitutionally hunt that individual and bring that person to justice. You know, we get to engage in a fight and a mission that very few people will ever understand or ever get the opportunity to step into a place of significance and meaning in their life. We get to drive as fast as we can safely towards the location that everyone else is running away from. And that's what we get to do. Exactly. Yeah. No, that's why I could see though, what the electricity is in the sense of service. Yeah. You know, of being there. Who's there for you? That's a good question. That's a good question. I feel like, I feel like my, you know, my connection to a higher power, I feel like I have this deep connection to a deeper and abiding relationship with God. I have just a few people, like just a few really close friends and people that really have my back. I have the Alcoholics Anonymous community. I've got people like Gus that are there, you know, even though I've been in kind of a mentor relationship with him, he's still someone that I know that's got my back. And so I've got, and most importantly, I'm open to, we talk about in recovery, right? We either get in touch with our emotions or we're going to drink over it, right? So I'm in touch with who I am and my emotions today for the most part, right? I mean, there are times I shut down too, but having this level of sensitivity is so much more powerful and it's so much more a beautiful experience if I'm actually not numbing, I'm not engaging in numbing behaviors, drinking, you know, eating Valium, eating Ativan, eating- Was that some of your prescription drugs? Yeah, prescription drugs and alcohol. I'm not engaging in the spiritual bypass today. I'm here, I'm open, I'm receptive, I'm available, right? In the moment. And that's how I get to be, have the gift of being available for people like Gus. And it's just, it's an amazing journey. You know, it's so much more beautiful than going through life impaired, like so many of the white sheep of the world do. You know, I feel something, I need a cigarette. I need to buy something, you know, I need to drink something. I need to drink something. I need to eat something, right? I mean, I'm not saying that I'm perfect. Like sometimes I'll eat Oreo cookies in the middle of the night too, right? But- Me too. But I'm aware when I'm doing it. And I used to not be aware of what I was doing at all. I was just like this machine that, you know, was drinking and doing my thing as much as I could and was trying to not feel as much as I could. Well, one thing that's really struck me is earlier in our conversation, guys, you said that, one of the gifts is being of service. And that's the answer. And there's some irony because isn't the slogan to protect and serve, is that the LA saying? So you've, I mean, obviously you've picked a career that just by its very nature is serving, which is kind of going full circle in a way, you know? So you don't have to just be serving your fellows and recovering, but also you do it every day. You step foot into your workplace. We're almost out of time here. Gus is, why don't you just find a new career? So thank God you don't. I'm vested, vested. I'm almost vested. 19 years at the end of the month, come on. I plan to do- You love what you do. I love what I do. I was born and raised here. You know, when I took the exam to get hired up with LAPD, I meant what I said, you know, I'm a long timer. I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going to the suburbs. Born and raised, I love the city of Los Angeles and how better it's getting. And I plan to do 30 years minimum. So another 11 at least, right? Well, I just, I could talk to you guys all evening. I really want to thank you. You know, I, first of all, what you do for a career, I could never do. I'm just too scared. Okay, really. You could do a Vic. No, I'm scared of guns. I'm scared of being chased. I'm scared of bad guys. You can just keep paying your taxes and paying our salary and it's all good. Seriously, I can't thank you enough for what you do because I'm a big scaredy cat. I admit it. We're all good at different things. I'm bad at that, what you guys do. You know, chasing bad guys and women. I don't want to do that. I get scared just, I'm not scared in the studio because again, I've got two armed police officers. But otherwise it's true. I just have this thing where I couldn't do what you do. And so thank you so much. And I know you have many opportunities to take, chosen many different careers. And the fact that you have done this and you've had to suffer, regardless of whether you have a spiritual connection or not, you've done this. You've done this. You've done this. You've done this. You've done this. You've done this. Whether it's a job or not. And whether you've been through recovery or not, you're still suffering. You know, and this job that you've chosen does put you out there emotionally. And it's great. You have great ways of dealing with it. But if you were a clerk at Ralph's, it would be a different experience. I know you'd have different challenges but this is a highly charged job you've chosen. And it's not for everyone. And I really appreciate you doing that. Well, appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you also guys, and I'll just finish with this. You've humanized for me, police work and particularly officers, because my only experience is trying to talk myself out of a ticket. That's it. Poorly. Yeah, I don't talk to them about their higher power or what's going on. Do they have a good support system? Yeah, I just see a tough looking guy who's about a foot and a half taller than me who could kick my ass. And I just smile a lot. And later after the show, you'll tell me how to make me get out of tickets. Cause I really, I heard just be honest. That's the best thing. And that's a good way to end the show. Thank you guys for your honesty, really. And I want to thank all of you for listening. See you next time right here on Vic Cohen's It's a Fair Question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair quest, quest, quest. And Moses. Yeah. And Moses. And Moses. And Moses. And Moses. And Moses. And Moses. And Moses.