Sex and love addiction with Jess Levith

I'm Vic Cohen. And it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen. And it's a fair question. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen. And it's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. Hello. This is Vic Cohen. Broadcasting live. Yes. It's live from Skid Row Studios in downtown Los Angeles. Yeah. It sounds a lot more exciting than it is. the name of the show is It's a Fair Question because on this show if you've been listening you know there is no question off limits there's nothing I won't ask particularly of our guests this afternoon we actually are doing a rare recording usually we do these in the evenings so we are talking about something it's naughty it's very naughty this is going to be hot and steamy this is going to be tawdry we are talking about something that you need to just really pay close attention to I'm all worked up in a tizzy just thinking about it we are talking about sex we are talking about love and we are talking about addiction it was sounding so good why'd I have to ruin it I have with us a very special lady she is a lady how do you like being called a lady that makes me feel very old yeah I know you're so youthful I think you could use a little old oh good her name is Jess Levith am I saying your last name right you are surprisingly that's how I've always imagined it being said and she is an expert in sex and love and addiction yes more importantly let's point that out I was really playing up I'm trying to make it a lot more steamier than it's going to be this is not going to be quite as steamy in hours as I was not that I was hoping but when people hear sex and love it's like whoa yeah I'm totally schvitzing right now I am too I'm so nervous all the guests when they're around me of course you know yeah you're incredibly intimidating yes and handsome please so are you what makes you an expert in this field and how big a problem is sex and love addiction so I think that's the first time I was actually ever called an expert and I kind of right now yeah yeah because I don't know I mean I still think I'm in my infancy of working with clients in this addiction I would say I have an interesting perspective um having um been recovering from sex and love addiction or what I call sex and emotional dependency for almost nine years so um okay hold on huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh years. Okay. So let's go back nine years. Oh dear. Oh no. What was life like nine years ago as a unrecovering sex and love addict, maybe not even knowing you were having a name for it? Well, I'll paint, I guess I'll paint this picture for you. So if you were to walk into my apartment nine years ago, I would have skateboards and guitars and everything I thought that a man would think was the coolest thing possible that a girl could be. And I didn't know how to play guitar and I didn't know how to skateboard. I mean, it was all a facade. You created a man cave. I did. I created a man cave for any man that I thought would be entering at some point in my apartment. Okay. Video games. I never played. You had an Xbox or something? No, I had one of those things that you plug into the TV with the two games on them. Just two? Yeah, just two. Just enough. To get them in. The really cool ones though, like Tetris and... Old school. Old school. Okay. So you lured them into your little web of deceit? I had no clue who I was. I was a ghost of a person. I didn't even know what color I liked. Why is that? Because every single thing that I did, every behavior, every way that I even spoke to the person serving me coffee was what I thought other people wanted. You know, and what... And I had no idea what I wanted and what I even liked because I was so afraid of not being seen and liked and wanted that I just, I would do anything. Mold myself. I was a chameleon. Okay. So we're... That sounds painful. Extremely. It was extremely painful. So what did the pain look like? What were the behaviors that were creating the pain and mental state? Well, without going into too many specifics, I will say... I was a chameleon. Okay. So what did the pain look like? What were the behaviors that were creating the pain and mental state? Well, without going into too many specifics, I would say that, you know, I just, I went from one potential partner to the next for years and I had three or four on a back burner. You were a serial dater? I was an absolute serial dater and no one was ever serious. At least they thought they might've been, but I, they weren't to me because I was, no one was enough. You were closed off? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it was impossible to be open because, I didn't know who I was to open. Were you abused as a child or where did this come from? Wow. We're getting somewhere quick. It is a fair question. It's only like three minutes into the show. Yes, it is. That came from Jeremy. He's, he asked me to ask you that. Oh. I'm kidding. Thanks Jeremy. Jeremy's like, what? Jeremy, our producer slash guy who runs the joint. Right. No, but I'm just trying to one, I'm curious where this comes from. Right. Well, I mean, you know, one of the founders of the sex addiction, you know, the kind of world Patrick Carnes, he, you know, did a study of how many sex addicts, and this was back in the seventies and eighties, how many sex addicts were sexually abused. And it was like 80% or something like that. Don't quote me on that, but it was a ridiculously high percentage and yes, I was, you know and, and it was, you know, it, it was what basically connected in my brain, sexuality and emotional. Um, my emotions to a barter system, you know, um, like I will give you this if you will make sure I don't disappear, you know, meaning like, um, pay me attention because if you don't love me, I'm not here. And if I'm not here, I don't exist. So, uh, anything for them. So it felt like survival. Absolutely. Yeah. Because without the recognition of another human being, there was no Jess. Right. Absolutely. And you, and that kind of thinking probably you'd say developed from some kind of abuse. I would say it was developmental trauma. I don't think it was a single instance trauma. I mean, I was, um, uh, sexually exploited as a kid. Um, but I think it was also on top of that, there were years of being emotionally exploited, parentified. And then, um, you know, uh, there was a really like nasty where I was, I was basically a pawn, uh, in the, there was like this awful divorce and you know, it's stuff that happens to almost everyone these days, you know, but it's just compounded one thing on another. So would it be fair to say that sex and love addiction is really not about the sex or the love that there's something behind that there's some kind of, um, psychological challenge, like, you know, emotional challenge. And that's just where some people go to act out. Absolutely. I mean, you know, what's interesting about sex and love addiction is that, you know, a lot of people stop listening after they hear the word sex. You know, just as your intro said, you know, sex, you know, like this big word, you know, that's, you know, got all of its um, stigmas attached to it. Right. But it's not about that. It's about a, it's about an attachment disorder. You know? It's an about, it's about using sex and love because you don't know how to healthily attached to people. You know? And I would, I would argue that even the sexuality. I would. I would. of it are more symptoms of the deeper emotional issues, you know. I would argue that most people that are substance abusers, you know, are actually having attachment issues, you know, beneath a substance. What do you mean by attachment issues? I mean, they don't know how to attach to their own emotions. They don't know how to healthily attach to other people. And so they're numbing that fear of attachment with a substance. They're numbing. And then beneath that, you've got the sexuality, like, okay, so during my own recovery, you know, there were different support groups I would go to, right. And at these support groups, for one, for instance, was for alcohol, right. And I would go there and no one was drinking, but everyone was flirting with each other. It was like a catwalk, you know, and it's like, it was so, so clear to me that, no, you're not drinking and congratulations on that. And that's wonderful, but you're crazy. You know, like you're still, you cannot, you can't function in a relationship with anybody. Because they're acting out in a sexual way. They're all sexualizing each other. I mean, to go there, I, you know, I would go to the meetings to pick up guys because I know that they'd all be messed up. You went to AA meetings for, to meet guys, but you weren't an alcoholic. I will. Well, not, first of all, I'm not going to state what meetings I went to, the specific. I thought you said AA, so maybe I'm mistaken. I thought you brought, you mentioned AA first. So I, that's the only place I was going. I wasn't trying to pry into. Oh. So I can, we can abandon that. We can, that was never said. In this, in this. In this, in this interview. Jeremy, what did she, am I making that up? I think you are actually. I didn't hear her say AA. Where did she say she went? I'm curious where my head went. Uh, support groups. I said support groups. Oh, okay. I was very vague about it. Okay. Nevermind. Um, but. I was just taking a stab. I apologize. It is a fair question. It is a fair question. I can always hide behind that. I'm totally sweating now. I'm going to get so many hate mails. No, you're not. You know, you're being brave and this isn't, we're not talking about also your journey. We're not talking about what you're doing today. Right. I mean, you know, let's put it in its perspective. Mm-hmm. I mean, this is you sharing your story a little bit. Yeah. And, um, so. I, I did venture into, even though I didn't have those specific issues, um, I think that the 12 step process, um, is very similar cross cutting all addictions. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to really see what the differences were. Like, what was my issue? What was I struggling with? Right. Um, and I didn't go to the meeting specifically to pick up men. Um, although that is what ended up happening because, uh, I felt like I was in a safe place, you know, because there were these support things happening. But what was really happening was I was getting triggered left and right. Okay. And, you know, and there were no boundaries, you know, um, and. Yeah. I would say, you know, I, I went, I have gone to AA meetings of several because I was curious about them. I'm not an alcoholic. Mm-hmm. But I was, um, doing something else support wise. And I thought it'd be really interesting to see what goes on in AA meetings. So I do know what you're talking about. Did you find yourself triggered? Um, no, because I felt like I was an outsider. Like. Yeah. Like, um, it was funny because there was a woman who spoke at that meeting. I had gone to one of them and I really was, uh, I was moved by her story and, and what she had to share. And, and I went up to her and I said, I just think you're, you know, that I'm not a good person. But honestly, it's amazing. And where are you going to be speaking again? I'd love to hear you. And she's like, oh, well, um, what do you, you know, what, what are you here doing? Are you, you know, are you here for like, are you new to this? Are you an alcoholic? I'm not an alcoholic. I said, you know. I just like you. No, I just said, I thought, I thought this could be interesting to, um, hear what goes on here just for the spiritual stuff and support. And, you know, it's like to hear people, the stories are very dramatic in AA, you know, people who are literally begging for money on the street. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Living amazing lives, many of them. Mm-hmm. Very satisfying and emotionally and financially fulfilling and all of that. And then I, she's like, well, what's your thing? And I shared a little bit with her and she's like, you know, I don't think you're gonna really want to see that other, uh, thing I'm doing. It really doesn't connect. Oh boy. It was very, um, closed off. Like it felt at that particular, now I'm not saying that's the experience in the whole organization, but, um, and, and I noticed there were couples and a lot of canoodling with the couple. Right, right. But, you know, and. And, um, so I, I kind of know a little bit about what you're talking about. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, let's talk about you being a woman and talking about sex and love and describe and, and getting into talking about your own experience. Mm-hmm. I would think that's very brave and, um, it's very, um, you're making your, your personal life become more public. You know? It's, it's taking the, the curtain, coming out from behind the curtain. What do you think about that? I am terrified, uh, of doing it, um, just because, um, I, I practice, uh, psychotherapy, you know, I'm still in, um, an intern up in the Bay area and I'm really, uh, nervous about how much of my personal life comes out because, you know, in traditional psychotherapy, you don't know anything about your, your therapist. And that's the way I see it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's the way it's supposed to be, quote, you know? But, what they've, what research has kind of shown is that, you know, the more you can actually relate and connect to your therapist, it's what's happening in the room that's transformative and, and that can help you in your, in your journey, you know, connecting to another human being and being fellow travelers. Um, with that said, uh, I have to be really careful about what is appropriate for me to share, um, about my journey. You were talking about these intense stories about people on the street and using. You have those same stories about sex and love addiction. And they get really dark. They get really dark. You've got guys that will spend their entire savings and their family's savings on strippers or hookers or internet sex or whatever it is. And you have women doing this too. Does it get triggering hearing other people's stories? It did for a long time. I've been recovering for almost nine years now. And I would say for a good first half of those years, it was definitely triggering because I'd go, oh, that sounds great. That is something I never even thought of. Thank you for that. And I would leave and I would go do it. But after a while, and when I talk to a lot of my clients, they get concerned about, well, what if these people are all perverts and stuff? And I tell them to listen to what's happening with them underneath the story. What is happening in these support groups? What is common among them, among the people? And when you start looking at that level, you realize there is just deep fears of abandonment. And doing. Doing whatever you can to just be loved and seen. And you can't get a cookie, so you get all the crumbs and try to make your own little cookie. But it's scary. It's really scary coming out. And especially because I have a husband now. Which, by the way, for the record, is not the prize. The prize isn't when you're all better, quote, that you're going to get married and everything's going to be perfect. The prize. The prize is that you get to sit with yourself. You know, that you can sit in your own skin through the discomfort of what a real healthy relationship feels like. You know? But I get concerned, like, you know, I have to think of him. You know? What's it like for him to have a wife that is doing this? You know, going out and speaking her mind and her past. Yeah. Well, I would suspect that that's part of what he loves about you. Hmm. Is the brave. Uh. The honest side of you and the honest side and wanting to help people. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much what I want. You know? Like I said, I don't claim to be an expert at this point. You know? There are many experts. There are many people that are working in the field that might not. This isn't the best suited for them. But there are many experts out there. And all, you know, the only difference I think that I might have is that I know what it's like. You know? To really, really be, have to be scraped off the floor. You know? By this addiction. Um. And, um. People often will say, oh, uh, you know, they'll make fun of it. Like it's like, oh, of all the addictions, sex, that's what I want. Now, when you say scraping off the floor, can, what does that look like? I mean, specifics. Were you suicidal? Were you, had you, how bad was it? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think it was when I started contemplating. I never attempted. But I definitely was thinking there, I, there is no way to get out of this. You know? Like, and by this, I mean the feeling of loneliness. You know, I, one of the hardest moments for me was, uh, my 25th birthday and I was at, at a bar and I was surrounded by men, you know? Um, and three of them I had already, you know, partnered up with and, and. Not that night. Not that night. Let's be very clear. Yes. Let's be clear. And one of them, you know, I wanted to, and one of them I had no interest in, but he had a huge crush on me. So he was feeding my ego that way. And I just remember sitting there and almost having an out of body experience and thinking, my God, this isn't enough. This isn't enough. What about that guy sitting over there? You know, does he want me? You know? Um, and it, it was just this feeling of total helplessness that, um, I could not, I couldn't be saved from this craving because it was such a big gaping hole in my, in my life. It was such a big gaping hole in my, in my heart. So what, what filled the hole? Uh, therapy. Honestly, you know, um, building a tolerance to be enabled to sit with myself and that did not happen quickly. It's hard for me to sit with you too. I'm building a tolerance here. It's been 35 minutes and I must say the first 15 were challenging. I can only imagine what your life is like. I'm kidding. Yeah. You know, it's sitting with the feelings. It's so hard. It's so hard. And that's why there is a much higher rate of relapse with this than, um, substance addiction because with substance addiction, you stop doing the drugs and you're sober. You know, you mean a substance again, just for anyone who would be unclear at all would be lick, you know, alcohol, drugs, alcohol, drugs. Um, and with, with sex and love dependency and addiction, it's much different. It's much more like a food addiction. Yeah. You don't have food to survive and yet you're addicted to this, this, this food. So you have to completely relearn how to eat and to relate with food. Right. And so you're dealing with that kind of addiction. Um, with, with sex and love addiction, you have to figure out, you have to completely unravel your concept of attachment. You know, how do you get your coffee in the morning? Do you make sweet eyes with the coffee server, with the barista, you know, like, um, are you driving around in the neighborhood to just for no reason, just to see who's walking around the streets that you might be able to accidentally run into, you know, like old boyfriends, uh, you know, is every place you're going to, uh, a hit what, what they call a hit. Well, here's here. Just, I want you all listening to know that, you know, this is obviously Jess's experience, but when we're going to get into this, but if let's say this isn't your experience, but you think you, this might be something that you're going to get into, you know, you're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just because you don't drive around neighborhoods or make sweet eyes, as Jess said, to the barista doesn't mean you may not have a problem. This shows up in so many different ways. And so this is Jess's story. Yeah. But what's similar, if you're contemplating as you're listening, what makes this a problem? It's can you stop? Right. Is it upsetting your life? Right. Right. So, I mean, that's what also makes this so much more complicated. And like you say, people make a lot of fun of it. They caricature. They're like, okay, well, you're like David Duchovny and they glamorize it. Or they say. David Duchovny from the series Californication. Californication, yeah. Or, you know, you're the dude in the trench coat in the forest, you know. I've actually seen that guy. Yeah. Not that I had any participation with him. I'm just saying. I think we've all seen that guy in Griffith Park. Now we've just, anyone who thinks they have this sex addiction thing, they're now going to Griffith Park looking for that guy. Oh, great. If they are in their addiction. Well, no, it does show up. It shows up differently for every single person, you know. And the basic concept is, you know, I'm not out to pathologize everybody. And when you say pathologize, what are you saying? What does that word mean? I'm not out to say you have, everyone has a problem with sex and love addiction. Because, you know, many people don't. You know, if you are, you know, acting or being sexual or emotional and it's fine with you and it's not interrupting anything in your life. Fine. Well, here's what I think the litmus test is. Okay. If now, if one can say, like, I don't have an issue, I have certain issues in certain areas. So if you say, Vic, no gambling, no more, no track, no race track, no Vegas. I'd be like, oh, okay, fine. Not a problem. But there's some other things to be like, really? No. Whoa. That's, you know, that would be more of a challenge. It's like people who smoke. You say to someone who's smoking, no more smoking. They don't want to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the addiction. You tell them the same person, no more shopping. They're like, I don't, I don't, fine. I don't barely shop anyways. I'm not going to make, do, you know, I'm not going to be a compulsive shopper. So fine. It's like what resonates, don't you think? Absolutely. If it is causing you problems in your social functioning, in your occupational functioning, functioning, like at work, if your friends are saying, why are you going after that guy again? You know, like, and you're, but you're feeling yourself drawn into it and you're getting, you know, you go around. in circles with the same partner and you just can't figure it out and it's causing you harm, you know, then it's time to take a look at it. Jess Levith. I just want to say your last name. Here's what I think. I was going to call you Jess. I hear what you're saying. You're looking at me in total shock. No, what I was going to say, I was going to make a point. And then I said your name so emphatically. Yes, you did. And your eyes got so wide. Like, no, I was going to say, oh God, I had such a good point. And now it went away by your reaction to your full name. Hey, if you want to call, it's 800-893-9562. If you think you might be a sex or love addict or you think someone in your life may be, or a child in your life, you know, like if you have a kid, this hits all ages. You don't have to be an adult. There's early onset for this, which they're actually starting to do research on. You know, I myself, I would say this started affecting me at around 10 years old. So, yeah, really early. Well, I got very... I... I can relate to that as far as being sexual early. You know, when you're a kid and you're in pain, there aren't many choices. There aren't places to go. 10-year-olds, let's just say 8-year-olds or whatever, they're not going to go to cocaine. They're not going to go to alcohol. What can they go to? Well, self-soothing through masturbation or finding pornography. I mean, it's really the only thing there is. You can't go buy stuff or go to the track. They're powerless. Kids are very under the power. They're under the power of their caretakers, you know. So, they have very minimal power and so they do have control over their old bodies sometimes. And that is what they will go to. Childhood is a hostage situation. There is no way out. It's true. It's absolutely... I work with children every day, almost every day of the week. And they are little hostages, you know. Bless their hearts. Well, what I find interesting about hostage taking is that in addiction or mental health, when someone's having depression or whatever, oftentimes the person takes themselves hostage. So, the hostage, they're still a hostage. And that negative thinking or unhealthy thinking is just a continuation of the experience they had as a child. So, I think that it's what you're describing, your 9-year journey. And I think that's what's really important. Is part of breaking through that yourself being hostage to you. Yeah. I mean, I think that kids absolutely internalize the environment that they grow up in. And I think it takes sometimes many years to get that narrative out of your head. Like the way that your parents spoke with you or your caregivers, you know. The way that they manipulated you. Questioning your own reality. Like, did I really see that? Was that really happening? Or am I making a big deal about it? You know. Like, that's... How does one know if they're making a big deal out of something that isn't? That was a really big struggle for me. And what I ultimately realized, at least for me, was what mattered was how I felt about it. You know. Who fucking knows what the details are? And in the end, does that matter? You know, what matters is what you took away from it as a child. You know. Like, how did it make you feel? And you can't... No one can take that from you. You know, you have to... You can own that. Right. I think there's an inherent problem in the question I asked about how one knows if it really was a big deal. Because that means there's somewhere to go where there's a specific answer. There is no book. Right. And what you're saying I agree with is that it's the personal experience that determines whether it was an issue. There's no... And by seeking an outside answer is part of the problem. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's in... You say you're recovering. You didn't say in past tense. I didn't graduate. Right. When is graduation and may I be invited? Because I'd love to come. I love graduation. I don't... I would be perfectly fine if there was never a graduation. You know, I am at the point where I feel like it may be the rest of my life. You know, it took... When you say it may be the rest of your life, what does that mean? Self-discovery and challenges? recovering from this addiction you know it took 20 something years to become the addict that i was how can i expect to be able to just change and rewire everything who knows how deeply that went you know and right and i i think ultimately there's also an element of sexuality um is natural you know and and it is also it's such a basic human uh need and just relating to it in a healthy way now and being able to balance what is healthy versus what what is addictive you know just always having an awareness you know one thing that really has disturbed me and really upset me last week was a study that came out from ucla questioning that sex addiction even exists i know and i find it infuriating because it was first of all if we look at the study there were only 50 subjects um they were shown pornography only from what i read at the study which is one little small slice of the puzzle it's not you know people who are particularly women they're not very into porn so if they're not having brainwave activity changes which was monitored to porn somehow in this study at ucla that meant they were not there wasn't a sex like the idea that it doesn't exist um it's crazy yeah i didn't hear about that specific study it came out and were big headlines you know because everyone loves to jump on that kind of story well there is something fundamentally wrong with the premise there and that is that they're assuming that sex addiction is working in isolation from love addiction you know especially with women not to be gender you know biased or specific well there is there are differences there are differences but there's also you know you know i fully believe that sex addiction and love addiction are constantly interweaving you know with one another and and kind of pulling you from one end to the other and to have a a study what the problem is they're trying to quantify it so that they can uh be able to bill for it you know like they're trying to quantify sex addiction so that a it can be you know legit well but the study was saying it doesn't exist exactly you know so but that's the intent i'm guessing is that it's not working and i'm not sure if it's working or not but i'm not sure if it's working or not um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um art, you know, and I think that people forget that, you know, they keep thinking it's a science. Well, the thing that bothers me is you got a guy who's looking at porn all day long at work, maybe he's lost his job, or let's not be so dramatic. Let's say there's a guy who's pulling away from his wife, subtle. He senses something's not right. Their sex life is diminished. And there's a lot of, they're having problems in the relationship. Now that guy reads that article, which said basically they think that it's due to high libido, which is like these behaviors, like going to porn or going to prostitutes or having affairs, which sets that whole movement, this, you know, what's actually been learned back to like the stone ages. Can I, can I just drop a little knowledge? Just, I mean, just, and I'm not an expert on this, like I said, you know, but what happens is, first of all, I do believe that there is such thing as sex. And love addiction call me biased because I work with it, you know, and I have suffered for years from it. But what's happening is the same. And this has been proven in many studies that the same pieces of the brain light up, you know, for sex and love, addictive thoughts and behaviors as do substance behaviors. I've read that and seen that too, particularly on a website called yourbrainonporn.com. But there are other, websites and studies that anyone can look up online. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm, I'm talking mainly just journals, research journals, journal of- Studies. Yeah. Many, many, you know, guided studies, you know, and there is the same rush of dopamine happening in your brain during sexual thoughts. And, you know, maybe they can't prove it right now. Maybe we don't know, you know, the brain, but there are still people suffering, you know, and to disqualify. Yeah. To disqualify that, you know, for the reader who is suffering is like, oh, no, I guess it's not a thing. I guess you just justified my- Well, that's the problem that I have among many problems is that some guy who's pulling away from his wife, like he had a subtle thing, sees something like that and he goes, oh, I'm just horny. Yeah. That's it. Well, I mean, I guarantee you if it gets bad enough, he'll end up either destroying the marriage or going to seek help. You know, I mean, it's, it's not something, I don't know, you know, I don't know what it's going to take for people. I mean, this is still the most puritanical country in the world, you know, like we're still one of the only countries that censors boobs on the radio or on the radio, on TV. And the radio. And the radio. So keep your shirt on. We don't want any problems. Actually, we do have cameras here, so. I saw it. Yeah. Keep that shirt on. Yeah. I'm going to keep the t-shirt on. And pants, everything. And you too, Jeremy, you know. So what's the future looking like for you? Both professionally and professionally. I think it's going to be a lot of work. I think it's going to be a lot of work. Both professionally and personally. Right. Well, personally, I'm really enjoying my life. I've never been at a place where I've been so happy just because I feel like I can sit with it now, you know. Sit with feelings. Sit with feelings and sit with, you know, what I've, what I've worked so hard for, you know, which is a healthy relationship. I went back to school, you know, I used to do, I used to try to do comedy writing, you know, and that wasn't working. That was kind of a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't funny, you know, but it just didn't translate. And, but I still love writing. So I think, you know, I've written a couple of articles for a couple of websites and eventually I would love to write about, you know, just my own experiences as a sex and love addict and the traumas that directly propelled me into the addiction. So write it from a client's perspective and a therapist's perspective. Yeah. And I, I think the more people talk about it, like you're doing, I mean, it's an incredible service, you know, it's, it's making it more real, it's hypothetical and women have a very hard time talking about it. Well, I get, I mean, when I, when I, a big piece of my fear, you know, is, you know, the ethical behavior of a therapist, you know, I get really concerned. I don't wanna jump over any boundaries and I'm still learning. I'm still an intern and I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. I can't speak. Well, there are a lot of people who they call themselves sober coaches and we had one here. I don't, you know, who, although I don't think that was his issue necessarily, but we, it seems like when you're not a doctor or have an MFT or, you know, the letters, there's more lenience to. Yeah, I, you know. But like, again, I just want to be clear. He is not, I believe that the issue that he deals with, he doesn't suffer from himself. But I know others in that field. Yeah. I mean, I, life coaches and coaches, I get concerned sometimes, you know, because I feel like they don't have anyone to be accountable to, you know. But then again, you know, I'm sure there are many out there that are brilliant, you know, and just didn't want to get the license, you know. Well, you, we talked about sex addiction, love addiction. You think that if one is a sex addict, then they're also a love addict always? I think that if one is a sex addict, there is a piece of it that has to do with a disconnect from love. You know, there is something going on in the attachment realm that has to do with why are you disconnect? Why are you having sex with so many people, you know, and constantly going out? I mean, this is only again, if it's causing you harm, you know. But why? Are you going from one person to the next unable to be, you know, fully present? Now, if someone wants to kind of figure out if they are a sex or love addict, like what would you say are the very specific signs? We've talked a little bit about it. I don't think, I mean, can we get into more specifics? Yeah. I mean, I would say sex and love. I always use the two together. You know, so I would say any behaviors that you're doing that are related to sex or emotional intimacy that you avoid. If you're avoiding people who are available constantly and just going for, oh, I just want to have fun, you know, like, and just if you're constantly justifying being with unavailable people and yet you are unhappy, you know, if you're doing behaviors that you can't stop, you know, yes, there is internet porn. Yes. Yes.! There is, you know, there is going to massage parlors and things like that. But there's also behaviors like if you're going to the same coffee shop every single day knowing that you're going to see somebody and get that hit even though they're unavailable and they don't want to see you, you know, but you're going or you're making coincidences happen with people that are unavailable, you know, just to get the hit, just to see them. It's so tricky because there's so many different ways. Facebook stalking. Constant. Right? I constantly do it. But, but, but, no, but maybe not you, but that would be a sign of if you, if one were constantly looking up the opposite sex, whatever they're into. Oh, this is going to date me. But when I first got into my own recovery, I deleted my MySpace profile. And I swear I had, I was on the phone with, you know, I was on the phone with my ex-girlfriend. I was like, I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. I'm going to get a text. And she was saying, okay, now you're going to press the delete button. And I'm on the ground. I'm not even looking at the screen crying. And because I was so terrified to let go of connection with people, I wanted to be able to make sure that this person, even though I knew what the person was doing, you know, I wanted the proof. You know, it was, it gets crazy. And one of the things I think is also important for. Anyone to, if they're looking, assessing themselves, if it might be an issue is patterns. Yeah. I mean, but that's, that's again, one of the complicated pieces of this is everyone has different patterns. So what's a pattern for me could be totally fine for you. Now, a pattern could be, for example, if we're looking at porn, that could be a guy who, or lady who maybe swear, looks up, goes on binges, maybe looks at porn for hours upon hours and then stops. And then maybe goes three months without looking at porn. And then goes back into a binge. Well, they might say to themselves, I don't really have a problem because I can stop whenever I want. Look, every three months or six months, I stop. That sounds exactly like an alcoholic. Right. I know. I mean, that's, I mean, and that's the thing is you, that's why it's really good to look at these other addictions and, and just see that it is validated, you know, like you're, you're gonna drink, go from beer to wine. Right. Okay. So I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not an addict anymore or beer anymore. You know, it's like, I'm not an addict because I'm not looking at porn for three months. I can go without it, you know, and then you hit your wall and you have to go back. Yeah. And I think that, that when there are these breaks, it's a very, it's an easy way to make people feel they don't really have an issue. Yeah. There, I mean, there's an extreme level of denial because of, you know, because sexuality is one of the basic human functions. If you're what you would think is faulty in that basic human function. Yeah. I mean, that's terrifying. What do you mean by basic human function? I mean, sexuality is how we keep the race, the human race going, you know? So if you are faulty in that basic human functioning. Right. You know, I mean, that's at your core. Well, I'm not a big, super religious guy. Isn't the first commandment like thou shall be fruitful and multiply or something like that? Thou shall be a sex addict. Yeah. Yeah. Why, what's going on for women to become more comfortable identifying? I, you know, I just don't know. I mean, I have a lot of clients that come in and it's really difficult. I work mostly with women and it's really, really difficult. They are terrified that if they go to these support groups, that they're gonna be in danger from the people in the groups because they think that everyone is a pedophile, every sex addict. You know, it's, it's a... But these aren't children. Right. So why are they working? Right. You have a lot of, oh, you do work with children. I know. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about adult women who go in and think that there's basically creepy guys. Creepy guys. The guy in the trench coat in Griffith Park. Right. Which is so unfair to people who wear trench coats. Exactly. You know, it's... Exactly. In the rain, it's such a good, comfortable style. It is. Yeah. So maybe they need, they should do like a PR thing, the trench coat people. You know? The new trench coat? Yeah. You know, in the school yards and, you know. Yeah. But for women, you know, all I can say is just try it. You know? Try what? Therapy or... Just try talking about it with a therapist or someone that you feel safe with. That you really feel safe with. Not someone you're trying to trauma bond with, you know? Trauma bond meaning you both have traumas, you're trying to heal through each other? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know? And a lot of women, I find that, you know... A lot of women get into relationships with partners, male or female, that are traumatized in the same way. And they do see that same level, you know? And they're just like, oh, we were meant for each other. And the truth is, you have the similar traumas, but neither of you are working on them. You know? So that's not gonna go well. Chances are. Right. And who's... And who is... If you're using that person who's already suffering as your help, who's really helping? Right. And what kind of help is that? Right. And one of the premises of sex and love addiction is that, you know, your mind is inherently wired in kind of a wacky way. So how are you possibly gonna be able to get yourself out of it? You know? Like how can you get yourself out of your own disease? You know, you need the help of others, of an objective perspective, of a therapist, of a clergyman, whoever it is that you feel safe with. So when we talk support groups, there are many different kinds. Like you said. There are churches that have these kind of programs. There are 12 step groups. And they're easy to find online. Yes. I mean, there are tons and tons of... I mean, there's Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. There's Sex Addicts Anonymous. There's Co-Dependency. There's... They're just a litany of them. If you just Google sex and love addiction, you know, I'm always for going for more sex and love addiction. I mean, I don't know if you're into sex addiction just because of the interweaving of the two. But they have tons of therapists. Go on Psychology Today. You know, like look up sex addict therapists, you know. And remember when you're finding a therapist, like the first therapist you find may not be a right match, you know. And so it may take a couple of tries to get someone that you truly trust. It's like dating. It is like dating. That would be great if they had a match.com for therapists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. So your life sounds pretty changed, you know, from what it used to be clearly. I mean, it's an incredible turnaround. Yeah. I mean, I would say that quite honestly, you know, when I was doing stand up and comedy writing, I was so desperate to be recognized and seen. And I don't think that most comics, well, I think a lot of comics do, you know, just want to be seen. And that's why it didn't work for me, you know, because I wasn't coming from an authentic place of like, this is what I really want to do. You know, I really wanted to be seen and that was about it. And I didn't have a delivery, you know. But I don't know. I mean, so for me, Los Angeles was a bit poisonous, you know, because the industry here can be really, I mean, it's everywhere, you know, like everybody is wanting to do something and be somebody, you know. In the industry. And for me, when I finally got into recovery, I realized, you know, I felt vapid, you know, I felt totally empty and I needed to do something that was going to feel good, you know, and make me feel like I'm helping people, you know, at least as much as I can. But isn't it hard because it's such a difficult addiction to treat that you finding your clients are relapsing constantly and not really changing much? Mm-hmm. It's really, it can be really challenging for me as a therapist because it is such a slow process. But one thing, that's another reason why I feel like, you know, I can be really good for this, you know, at least the clients I work with or I can try is because I've been through that process. I relapsed for almost seven years, you know, constantly, you know, because what your triggers are constantly changing. And again, when we talk triggers, you're talking about the things that you're trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. The things that set off the dopamine in our mind, the things that we get a high off of. The addictive cycle, you know, is what we're looking at, you know, so it basically looks like you have an emotion, right? Then you quickly have, from that emotion, you get triggered and you go and want to quash that emotion, right? So you start seeking out the preoccupation, right, of the addiction. You find the girl, you find the guy, you find the hit, right? So you don't have to feel that. So in other words, if I'm sad, something's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm fearful about money or career, whatever, then I want to alleviate that feeling right away. So I'm triggered at that point. Yeah. You immediately get triggered and then you start with the preoccupation, which builds up the high with, gives you the feelings and the dopamine. Eventually you, you can't take it anymore. So you act out, right? Cause you can't sit with the pressure of it. And then you go into remorse. I'll never do that again. And then this like, you know, re the, the re-up of like, okay, I'm on, I'm on the, I'm on the narrow, straight and narrow now. You know, I forget what that piece of the cycle is, but that sounds, I'm sure that sounds extremely professional. Well, we're getting the idea of what you're talking about. It's a cycle. So that's fine. I mean, don't worry about the last word. I totally understand what you're describing. There's something else I was going to ask you about that cycle. Oh, you talked about the cycle. I mean, I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. You talk about triggers, but also you would say things you, in our conversation here, you've been talking about triggers being something that, that where there's no event, like you have to always have an uncomfortable feeling to be triggered. Um, no, no. Um, I mean, there is internal triggers, you know, like I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling angry. And then there's external triggers. You see somebody or you go someplace that reminds you of something painful, you know, and, and that, then you have the feeling. And then you, like, if I were to say, porn is a trigger to me or what, what does that mean? I mean, I'm not in a bad mood, right? No, you're dead. You may not be in a bad mood, but porn to you is, um, I don't know. It's, it's really hard to describe. And now I feel like I've been caught off guard. Um, let's see. Um, it, at some point it does become like the substance at some, some pieces of it are like substance, you know, where you're taking it, you're injecting it, you're watching the porn, right? Where it's not always coming. From a precipitating event of a feeling. Right. It's, it's there. That's the external stimulus, you know? Um, and, but that does start the, the wheels. The thing that I think is really, um, insipid about this particular addiction is that it's very easy to minimize it if one is in it. The drama isn't quite the same. You know, if a heroin addict wakes up on the bathroom floor after blacking out or having been rushed to the hospital, that's a big sign of a problem. You know, what else is, is if you wake up on, um, a Sunday morning after going out to a bar and you're lying next to a perfect stranger for the umpteenth time and you have no emotional connection to this person, you don't even find this person attractive. Right. Well, someone say that's getting laid. Well, you might have, but then, um, there, it's only a problem if for you, you feel completely disgusted with yourself. But also what are we looking for in life? Women are looking, not just women, but I hear more from women are, they want to have a family. They want to meet a guy to have a family, but if they're behaving in the way we're describing here, that's not going to happen very likely, or it's not going to be a good situation. Right. I mean, what are you moving towards? You know? Right. And the other thing I think that, um, regarding pornography and relationships, I think it, I, I, it's so subtle and it just eats away at relationships. And so what happens is, a guy or woman, a lot of women, uh, will have affairs based on internet, uh, acting out. So what seems innocent, they're just going to look at photos or go visit a website. Eventually they end up meeting someone. And so then now they're having a full-blown affair and eventually their marriage is gone and their lives are completely upside down. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's why, you know, when people minimize this addiction, it's a little frustrating. It's a little frustrating for me because this is what happens and it happens a lot. I see these people all the time, you know, they come into me and they're like, I don't know how it happened. You know, my marriage just ended because I had an affair with something that I thought was so benign, you know, but this is such an insidious, uh, dis-ease, you know, um, and, and something it does, it moves very rapidly. When do you leave your partner? I'm sorry. Not you personally. Which is funny. No, but what I mean by that is when does someone who's involved with a sex addict, uh, or love that sex and love addict, they realize their partner has this problem, whether man or woman, whatever the partner says, Hey, I've got this problem. I'm sorry. I've been sleeping with 20 people, whatever it is. I'm an addict. I need help. I'm going to get help. At what point do you pull the plug and go, Hey dude, you know, okay, I'm sorry for you, but this is done. Right. No, I, I, um, there are, there are actually support groups for sex addict, partners of sex addicts. Um, I forget what those are called. Um, but they're called not a lot of fun. Not a lot of fun. So downer, I'm guessing. You know, at minimum, you can always go to an Al-Anon meeting because you're dealing with an addict, you know, and, um, Al-Anon deals with, um, people who are in relationships with addicts. My thought is though, at what point, I guess the answer is that's up to each individual. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you go, go to a counselor, go to a couples counselor and see if you can work through it. I mean, is addiction, is cheating on a partner, is that a legitimate reason for someone to say to a spouse, I've been cheating? Like, is that, you know, is there any acceptable reason to be cheating? Um, I don't know. I think that's really subjective, you know, honestly, honestly, like, I, I, I don't know. I would have to know the situation. You know, I can't just give a blanket answer is. Because it could be easy for someone to hide and go, I'm just, I'm just a sex addict. Well, absolutely. That, and that's what I, I am fearful of saying yes or no about, you know, is that's what makes this so complicated. This is such a complicated issue, you know, because it is so dependent upon the couple, upon the person, upon their background, what happened to them, you know? Um, well, listen, we, we're actually out of time. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's been really great. I'm so happy you've come down from, uh, the Bay area to join me and us, here in the studio in Los Angeles. Yes. Um, if people want to find you, say hi to you, read your blog, how do they do that? Um, it is east-baytherapy.com and then on there I have a sex and love addiction blog. It's a dependency blog and, um, I also work up there. You take emails if people hear this and they have questions? Uh, sure. Jess Levis at Gmail. Oh, Jess Levis MA at gmail.com. Okay. Well, I am so excited that you came in to join us. Thank you. And you know, what I didn't mention is we're friends. Yeah. You know, so. We're friends. Yeah, we are. And just seeing your life as so blossoming is, is very exciting. Thank you. I'm so happy for you. Thank you for having me. No, it's been great. Thank you. And thank all of you. You know, you listening, you. And thank you, Jeremy. Thanks Jeremy. And, um, hopefully we will, we'll, um, we'll see you again soon. And, um, we do this every week here at Vic Cohen's. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen. And it's a fair question. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen. And it's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair quest. Quest. Quest. Quest.