Addiction recovery and couples therapy with Weathers and Kelly

hello this is julianne good and this is psych one-on-one welcome we are here to make psychology more understandable with tips for you your family and friends to make your lives easier happy chinese new year i think this is gonna be a great year and thank you for the new theme song from nico schmeer he's a local artist very talented so i'm glad to have him on board and also on board this evening is dr bob weathers and colleen kelly and we're going to be discussing couple and family dynamics in addiction and their upcoming book plural recovery hi bob and colleen how you doing hi julia great to be here thank you thank you and can you tell the listening audience a little bit about your backgrounds sure i'll begin with me i'm dr bob i work in universities and for the last few decades i've been involved in developing curriculum particularly in addiction studies and so my work has been around especially around introducing mindfulness basis based approaches to addiction studies i i've also my phd's in clinical psychology and i've also been involved in the development of addiction studies and so my work has been that's fantastic and colleen yes hi i'm a marriage family therapist and i have two private practices one in los angeles and another in orange county and i specialize in working with couples and families i provide workshops and trainings i also supervise and i also work at a clinical center and i'm also a clinical therapist and i have two private practices clinic called PCH Treatment Center, which is located in Venice. That's fantastic. Thank you both. How did you both get into doing couples counseling regarding addiction? Well, we actually, I felt like there was a real kind of a gap or a need. We found that the people in the recovery community, by and large, saw things one way. And then the people who specialized in working with couples and families saw things and emphasized something different. And we felt it would be really important to bring the two fields together and also provide some help with that gap that we saw happening. And so we got very interested in it and the book started to develop around that. Yeah, it's a little tricky working with couples when there is an addiction involved, especially if both partners, are addicts. Now, how do you work with that since that can be a rather intense process? Well, I think it depends on whether the person is practicing. We really don't start doing intensive couples work until there's sobriety because there's so many ups and downs. So you're really looking more at sort of behavior and stabilizing the person or trying to get them toward the recovery goal. And that's where the efforts are in the beginning. And then once they're in recovery, that's a whole other kind of set of issues that come up. Julianne, I'm thinking back to inpatient treatment facilities where I worked, where we did have both members of a couple in treatment. And the work was really on establishing their individual recoveries rather than focusing on the couple's relationship per se. It's so inflammatory, especially early on. And I'm sure we'll be talking into that tonight. So that's a particular issue. And I think it's a really important issue. And I think it's a really challenging situation where you don't really have solid ground with either person until they've really established their own abstinence in the beginnings of recovery. So that's for sure a challenging scenario you've labeled. The more common one is where one individual is in recovery and the loved one is reeling from sometimes years of ongoing substance abuse and all that goes with that, including deception and disappointment. And I think that's a really important issue. And I think that's a really important issue. And I think that's a really important issue. And I think that's a really important issue. And I think that's a really important issue. And that's the more typical scenario. Our book, Plural Recovery, is really written to that situation is that we really want to address not only the huge resources that are available in recovery with ones, significant others, that the ones that love us most can be the most supportive in our recovery, but also really reaching out at hand of support and I think clarification to the loved ones who've been literally through hell. And how do we support them? how do we support them to support their loved ones who are in recovery? Yeah, very, very tricky. I've worked with couples and do an addiction recovery and it is, it's, it's, it's, it's hard getting to the base of what their relationship truly looks like without the addictive properties underlying it. It's, it's like, where do you start? It, there's a lot of codependent issues there. So can you speak about that? Just the codependency? Sure. Yeah. Well, I think, I think one thing that we've really learned in the last like several decades is that from the field of attachment is that relationships really have survival value. And in fact, you know, the research really bears out now that, you know, we live longer, we're healthier, we're happier when we're in a secure, connected, you know, good relationship. So relationships, you know, I think the early recovery was really focusing a lot on, you know, you just need to kind of keep your side of the street clean and let other, you know, worry, don't worry about the rest. But what we realize is that when, you know, there's been a lot of ruptures in a relationship, let's say there's trust issues owing to the addiction. Maybe they're used to being let down. Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are the reasons for that? Like what are from Colleen Julianne is a distinction that's a more recent one made in working with couples and families is that there's a distinction between unhealthy dependence, which I think we're calling codependence, and healthy dependence. That is to say that healthy dependence, where you're working through issues where there isn't enabling going on and so on, that those are actually instrumental and vital to recovery, but that's to be discerned or distinguished from unhealthy dependence or codependence for sure. And I think that's implied in your question is how do you sort that out and invoke the very best that a relationship has to offer? You know, in our book, one of the things that we've been working on is developing measures to measure what's going on for the addicts, but also for the loved ones. And in many ways, that's looking at forms of unhealthy dependence that need to be identified so that you can work on those. We don't want to miss that piece of it because if that's still in the field, then that's going to really hamstrung whatever recovery you're aiming for. What seems to be one really common behavior along the lines of codependency, where it looks like it's caring, but yet it's on that fine line, you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that it's important to always identify is where is it coming from? So a behavior can look pesky or problematic or unhealthy, but I always try and look at where is it coming from? And I think that's a really important thing to consider when you're looking at a relationship, because it's a relationship that's not just about the person, it's about the person, and it's about the person, and it's about the person, and it's about where is it coming from? And usually there's a lot of anxiety on the behalf of the loved one of an addict, and of course, understandably so. So if you can address that anxiety, get to the heart of it, that can often help matter. So I would say one behavior would be constant questioning, you know, contact, you know, where are you? What are you doing? Where were you last night? And, you know, on the one hand, you could say they're trying to reestablish some kind of trust in safety. And on the other hand, you could say they're trying to reestablish some kind of trust in safety. So that's not bad. But on the other hand, it can become counterproductive, to say the least. It's even inflammatory sometimes, right? Right. Especially if it looks like there may be cheating going on. Then you add another factor of, I don't trust you. What are you doing with this time? You know, you're hiding things from me. Yes, yes. I like a distinction that Colleen's helped me to understand between primary emotion and secondary emotion. An example in this case would be my secondary emotion, if I'm the loved one, might be frustration or intrusiveness, you know, bossy questions and so on. And I think it's implied what Colleen was saying is that underneath that, this primary emotion might be, I'm scared to death that I'm going to lose you. And to get down, to soften down into that, the tasks of effective therapy to move from that abrasive, this level down to a deeper level, which is typically more vulnerable and is easier to connect with. Right. Then you also have to be aware of, was there any domestic violence going on in the home? That makes it more inflammatory. And then you really, you have to separate the people out and they have to do their own therapy at that point. So how many couples have you worked with approximately percentage wise that that is what happens? That's where they're coming in with, and you have to separate them out and say, hey, you need to go get your own therapist. Meaning like a domestic violence situation? Right. Because it seems to be common with people who use substances that seems to come along with everything else, the intensity of the relationship. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think just owing to the population that I tend to see, it hasn't been really high. I would say maybe 10% of the people that I see. I see a lot of high functioning people. So they actually look really good. People who are holding down jobs that look really good from the outside, but inside they're lower functioning owing to the addiction. But yes, that certainly would be a part of the assessment that needs to take place at the very outset of, any kind of work that you're going to do. I'll tell you where your question goes, goes to for me, Julianne. And we can talk more into this if we'd like to is, is as you and I've talked about before in the context of a treatment center, the brain of the addict, both the active addict and the addict in early recovery is so the technical term is disinhibited, but there are no breaks on, on emotional outbursts. And so when you talk about domestic violence, I see it on a continuum, but you're going to have angry rage and reactivity going on very typically, including in an early recovery. And part of that part of the brain that inhibits those angry emotions being expressed is the same part that inhibits aggressive behavior. And so I think there's, I think it's implied in what you're saying. There's a kind of exponentially higher risk for acting out aggressive impulses because the breaks are really, they're really impaired, not only in active addiction, for sure in active addiction, but also in early recovery. And so I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to think about. The The effect of gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas something to be alerted for. I want you to know that that's part of what we'll be including in our assessment measures in the book is assessing for just exactly that kind of thing. Because if that's, if that's going on and not being discussed, then it's the elephant in the room that's going to affect their early recovery for sure. So that's a big piece of it. And that also goes back to your thing that you said, Julianne, about if someone's cheating. So if they're disinhibited, they're much more likely to be more susceptible to doing, acting out in that way, you know. And so that's another piece of the assessment as well, you know. Because if there's a, if there's an affair going on or if the person's cheating, that's a different kind of work that you'd be doing with a couple. Very complex. It is. One of the things I'm thinking of as we're talking, Julianne, is that a huge piece of what Colleen and I are trying to contribute here is really education. You know, education about what goes on in a relationship in and around addiction and early recovery. You know from meeting with me that a lot of my focus is what does the brain of the active addict look like? What's going on in the brain? And how do, how does what's going on in the brain affect relationship? But not just an active addiction, but when you move into recovery, the early weeks and months of recovery, what does that brain look like? And what systems are affected? And how does that affect the brain? And how does that affect the brain? And how does those reflect themselves? I mean, immediately, concretely into relationship. And our sense is, is that, you know, you yourself are a therapist. I've been involved for years in training therapists. Colleen's a therapist. Is that it's really on us to educate those of us in the field so that we can educate our clients into some of these realities. Because frankly, I've talked to a lot of professionals in the field. There's been a lot of ignorance and or naivete, even at the level of the professional in terms of really giving solid information that's useful to couples that are dealing with this. And so our book has a lot of different intentions. But I think a primary one is education about the process of addiction and early recovery, particularly how that impacts the relationship. We feel like that's a real contribution that we feel like there's a lot more that needs to be done, but we want to be a part of that. Well, this is a good start to it. So and I'm looking forward to your book coming out. And I think you did a really nice setup, Bob, for our next segment after our commercial break. So we're gonna take a commercial break. We'll be right back. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous psychology, behavioral and health related science graduate degrees at three campuses, Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, DC, and online. Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever changing mental health needs of society through classroom education, classroom experience and real world training. Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit chicagoschool.edu. Thank you to the Chicago School of Professional Psychology for sponsoring Psych One on One. This is Julianne Good. And my special guests this evening are Colleen Kelly and Dr. Bob Weathers. We are continuing our discussion about couple and family dynamics in addiction and their upcoming book, Plural Recovery. Now, as we were going before break, you were talking about the early process of recovery within couplehoods and also just for the recovering addict. What does that look like? I wonder if I can lay a foundation, Julie, to talk just a little bit about the brain, what's going on in the brain. Sure. Oh, definitely. And then Colleen and I've talked about this. She's going to help me to apply this directly to what's going on with couples. You've heard me speak about this, Julianne, is that everything that we know about the brain in addiction applies to all addictions. So that really opens up this conversation beyond just talking about drugs and alcohol. But we'll be talking about addiction and addiction in a little bit. We'll be focusing, as we do in our book, on drugs and alcohol. There are basically four different systems in the brain, all of which are really radically affected by addiction. And as we've been talking about in the earlier segment, not only in addiction, but in early recovery, the brain is still trying to reset these systems. I think I'd like to give at least one example, maybe a couple of examples of those systems. This would be the spirit of what we're trying to convey in the book in terms of solid information that's applicable. Dr. Julianne So one of those systems is referred to as the dopamine system. There are brain chemicals in the brain that give messages from one neuron, one nerve cell to the next. And dopamine is one of those chemicals. Dopamine is very much connected with our motivation to move towards things that have survival value for us. So dopamine keeps us alive, literally. So to give you an example of it, we have dopamine release in and around being in the presence of food. Dr. Julianne Obviously need food to survive. Dopamine makes not only consuming food, but also even seeking food pleasurable. It's a good thing. Dopamine is also connected with normal sexual response. Were it not for sexuality, we wouldn't perpetuate the species and so on it goes. And so what we experience is pleasure. Brain scientists say that's a dopamine response. This is the pleasure system. Now, part of the problem that arises around addiction to drugs and alcohol is that drugs and alcohol are not the same as the drugs and alcohol that we're using to survive. And so we're not getting the same results. So we're getting the same results. So we're getting the same results. So we're getting the same results. So we're getting the same results. So we're getting the same results. Basically, common deer or hijack that dopamine system. And to give you an example of that, our normal response to our normal baseline is, let's say, a baseline of one of dopamine. And in the presence of food, our dopamine level might go up to 1.5. In a normal sexual response, it doubles up to two. That would be kind of a normal range. What happens when you introduce a drug, let's say like cocaine? Dr. Julianne Well, cocaine quadruples our normal dopamine level, which is to say it's twice as powerful a dopamine release agent as is normal sex. You say it's twice as powerful as sex in terms of the pleasure that's evoked. What about methamphetamine? Methamphetamine is 12 times the normal level. So what happens when we turn this into looking at relationship? How can normal relationship compete with these substances? And so in active addiction, you can see why people aren't motivated to work on relationship or even to seek addiction. Dr. Julianne Yeah. Dr. Julianne Yeah. Dr. Julianne Yeah. Dr. Julianne Yeah. Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne Dr. Julianne The dopamine gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas gas at you with love in their eyes. There's a flatness. And in fact, their survival system is on the red alert for what can I do to get the next fix? So this has been an example in early recovery of what the brain has gotten used to has to gradually reset. And it will in most cases reset, but it can take months to reset to where normal reinforcers like food, like emotional intimacy, like sexual intimacy, where those can begin to actually feel pleasurable again. So that's just one example. Yeah. And I see that a lot with the clients that I work with. It's just, you know, they're bored. I mean, anything that you put in front of them, they're like, whatever. And, you know, they may used to have loved doing something. Like a lot of them were into sports before they became addicted. And that's really difficult. It's like, and they look at it and they'll go, I don't care. I just don't get the rush that I used to get off of that. And after that explanation, that is a huge issue. Yeah. that makes sense, right? Especially with meth. I mean, that is just so prevalent right now that, you know, 12 times the normal baseline, you know, what do you do when you're done with that? I mean, you're gonna explain the next, you know, a system and stuff, but I mean, that makes complete sense though. I'm glad you mentioned boredom because in recent presentations, I'll ask clients that I present this material to, what represents a stressor in your life? And almost always the first response is what? It's boredom. Oh, totally. Boredom is stressful. Boredom is stressful. I just read this last week. There's a book out on boredom that I wanna read. I hope it's not boring. Hopefully puts you to sleep. There's a whole treatment of boredom. We live in a society that's very fast paced, constant stimulation. Imagine amping that times 12 and then taking that all away. How do you find your moorings? How do you navigate through that? It's very challenging. Yeah. And I wanted to say something too for the loved ones. So if you kind of put this back in the context of relationship, think about the addict comes back, let's say from a rehab, right? And the loved one is so happy. They think they're gonna get their loved one back. You know, they're gonna be, they're finally gonna get, you know, it's gonna finally be okay. And what they get back often is someone that's oscillating, you know, up and down, you know what I mean? Kind of on a roller coaster, sometimes irritable, angry. And some days they're fine, other days they're not. And then there's this kind of flatness and kind of like, you know, do you want to take the kids out to the park? They don't really want to do anything, you know? And so the loved one looks at the person who's come back and they think, is that really who they are? And so that's another reason we want to kind of get this information out is so the loved one can understand and help, hopefully help them to have a little more bandwidth for the way they're responding in early recovery. Because there's this assumption, I think, that now they're clean and sober. Now things are okay and we can get back to normal. But in fact, what Bob's saying right now is, you know, he's talking about a phenomenon called post-acute withdrawal syndrome, which is really very, a central issue if you're dealing with a relationship in early recovery. Yeah, it's interesting. In my early studies in addiction, this wasn't in the literature, the post-acute withdrawal syndrome, there's different terms for it. It's easy to remember the acronym is PAWS, P-A-W-S, but it's been a major contribution in the last number of years is that the brain inactive addiction looks in many ways to the brain, looks like the brain in early recovery. And it's affected across all these brain systems and that translates directly into relationship. May I give you one more example, Julie? Oh, of course, please do. We mentioned the dopamine system. There's also what's referred to as the opioid system. Not to be confused with opiates, our brain produces natural opiates, which are referred to as endorphins, which literally, I think most of us know that term, but literally means endogenous morphine, is that you hear about the runner's high. That's an example of endorphins being naturally produced. Endorphins are there to help us manage pain, whether it's physical or emotional pain. And thank goodness for that in terms of the soothing they provide. Something that I didn't know about till more recently is that the endorphins, the opioids, are actually a part of our body's opioid system. Our natural body's opioid system is connected directly to relationship and attachment. And so a mother's love for the infant, a father's love for the infant, because I can bespeak this, a grandfather's love for his grandson, in my case, the endorphins flow naturally. Well, just as we were talking about dopamine, what happens if I flooded myself, not with endogenous morphine, but exogenous morphine, or in the case of exogenous opiates, like heroin, Oxycontin, and so on? They amplify so much the effects of the opiate, because it's actually, you're adding to it from the outside, is that the natural opiates, the endorphins going through my system, very similarly, they can't possibly compete. So if we talk about attachment or connection, the love that a mother would have naturally for her child or a father for his child, it's supplanted by that which comes in from the outside. And this is where you hear these horrible stories about those that are addicted, abandoning their children, nicotine, and so on. Neglecting their children, et cetera, because that natural instinct is completely hijacked or overwritten by the morphine, the heroin, the opiates coming from the outside. Very sad reality. It's another example of how the brain is hijacked by addiction, but not just in addiction, because those same symptoms continue through pause, through early recovery. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And approximately how long does it take a brain to recover from being an addict? I know. There's variations because there's different time spans for each addict. And sometimes it's polysubstance, sometimes it's just heroin or alcohol or something like that. But kind of on average, do you have a number? I'll start with an extreme answer and then I'll have Colleen soften it down. We have a colleague in the field who is addicted, had a very serious addiction to opiate painkillers. He's been addicted to opiates for a number of years. He said that it took him two years after stopping the use of the opiates. It was a very high dosage level for a very long time. It took him two years to even be able to sleep through a single night without some kind of help with that. And I state that as an example. If you have a serious addiction in terms of long-term, high dosage type of addiction, it can literally take years for the brain to readjust itself. Having said that, I think the reality is, It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. It's not the case. The reality is that there's a lot of change along the way that you can measure. We're attempting to measure that in the, we have questionnaires in the book where you can literally track yourself across month by month by month to be able to actually track the decrease in the symptoms of pause. But that would be an extreme example. And I think it's important to take very seriously how long-term this can be. Are you gonna modify that or? Well, just that, you know, it's so different. It really depends on how long was the person addicted? What were they addicted to? What time in their life were they addicted? Was their brain still developing when they? And then in terms of the relationship, was the relationship good when there wasn't a substance use? Like, did they have a solid foundation before the substance use, misuse came into play? And so I think there's a number of assessing measures that you need to look at to kind of get a sense of, is it three months? Is it three months? Is it six months? Is it a year? Is it two years? And then they have to, everybody has to remember to be patient with the process because, you know, there's such a push to get well. I wanna be well now. I want to be a different person because there's so much shame and guilt attached to having been addicted. And the behavior, many times it's criminal behavior because they had to get money to keep supplying their addiction. So it's a very tangled web, it seems. I'm glad for you to mention that, Julie. And I was thinking of it as Colleen was answering, is that in addition to the factors that you were talking about that contribute to the length or how long it's gonna take to recover, I was thinking of the resources in a relationship makes such a difference. Some of my early work over the last many years has been looking at shame and stigma. And I think that's a big part of the reason that I'm so passionate about this, Julie, is that there's a lot of stigma in and around recovery. And you just pointed to it, Julianne, is that personal shame towards oneself or stigma coming from others really can add fuel to the fire for sure. And that's a very active agent in terms of opposing healthy recovery. To the extent that I feel shamed is to the extent to which I may very well be paralyzed by the fact that I'm not doing the right thing. And I think that's a really, you know, self messages of shame and or stigmatizing messages, certainly from your culture, maybe from your family. And God forbid that it be in your most intimate relationships, but oftentimes that's the case. It's really, it's a killing energy that directly opposes healthy recovery. And I think this is one of the areas where we were talking about how the community that really centers with, that works mostly with a couple, the addiction community. Well, in the couple kind of community, their sort of mantra is be able to turn to your partner, be able to, you know, repair and, you know, look to your partner for support. But the problem is that's directly opposed when an addict is early in recovery and is facing all of this shame and stigma, like just being able to kind of start to look at themself and it can be so painful. Imagine that their most significant other, the most important person in the world has this reservoir of anger and resentment, right? That they've been harboring and they haven't been able to talk to them really because the person's been so hijacked and addicted. Their brain hasn't, they haven't really been present. So now they're present and they wanna be able to repair. So can you see the collision right now that we're sort of held by? Yeah, it's horrible sometimes. Yes, and so this is exactly what we were speaking to in the book, is this being very done, being very done, being very done, being very done, being very done, and then the other thing is that we're talking about the addiction, and I think that's a very delicate about when to do what and what to focus on in early recovery as opposed to later recovery, and really to have realistic expectations so they can feel successful. So both the loved one can feel successful and the addict in recovery can feel successful because you really want to support their process, not only individually, but together. And I think the way you do it is not to suddenly put them face to face when the addict is just starting to come out. Mm-hmm. And kind of work out all the kinks and feeling so awful, and the loved one's got all this stuff that they're holding, you know? So it's very tricky in those early stages. Yeah, it is, and it's, I mean, first of all, would you be taking it from a base of, let's go through what you're anguished about, or where would you start? For me, I think, you know, I've done some couples therapy, and it seems like, you know, you have to kind of let them air out their grievances first to a certain extent, you know, while supporting them. So where do you start? Yeah, it's a great question. I think first you really have to see where are they in terms of how, this is, dysregulated they are. And what I mean by dysregulated is, are they super amped up and furious and angry? Are they flat and not able to move? Are they flat and not able to be in touch at all with what they're feeling? Because there's a kind of a window of responsiveness that needs to be in place in order to have a very effective conversation or working through. So first I've got to assess, where are they both at? Are they too amped up and angry? Like, let's say the loved one is just brimming up to here with all of this anger and resentment, and they're spilling out all over. Is the addict flat and non-responsive? You know, where are they both? So you've got to kind of see where they're both at. And if it's too amped up, it's usually not effective. You know, if there's just this kind of torrent of outbursts, I don't usually find that that's too effective. It may be cathartic in the moment, but I think there's a lot of damage that can be done. And so really kind of working with containing that, really understanding it, kind of normalizing it. So you've got to see where they are in their window of responsiveness. And then the other piece that's super important, is can we just look at what they're doing right now? In other words, there's usually a common argument or difficulty, like a common fight they have over and over, you know, like same argument, different day, you know? And so kind of letting them, kind of unpacking that, I think can be very helpful. Like, what do you do? And what do you say? And what are you feeling inside? And having them both name that and kind of own their stance, own what they're doing. And then kind of seeing, hey, where does that leave you? Does that leave you feeling better and more connected? Or does that leave you feeling ticked off and angry or feeling unheard? And if they're really realizing that this isn't good for them, say, okay, well, you guys don't like it. You don't like it, you don't like it. All right, can we name this so you don't get stuck in that place? So in the beginning, it's kind of just sort of some really basic kind of behavioral, just being able to name where they're at and kind of externalizing the problem. So it's not the addict that's wrong. It's not the loved one that's, you know, the person who's just haranguing all the time. It's the interaction, yeah? So. Yeah, I mean, that's a good place to start because it's that couples therapy is one of the most volatile situations to be in. I mean, when we were going through our schooling, we were always told this is, you know, this is a therapy, and you're gonna have to make her break you as a therapist, basically. I mean, it's really difficult work, because they're just, you know, you're having two people with two different histories and then one history together, and especially if they have children or they have outside forces in their families, you're bringing in multiple people with two people in the room. Yes. One of my respected, there's a, that's great. Yeah, she's wonderful. And she has a little anecdote that she shared that I heard once that I thought was really, that kinda names what you're talking about, Julie-Ann. And that is, she said when she, you know, initially did individual therapy, she said it was, you know, she really enjoyed it. It was almost like sort of sitting down and having a cup of tea and talking. She said when she first started couples therapy, it was like being in the middle of a superhighway with two semis coming from either end. And that's that. That's a great analogy, yes. Yeah, it's funny. Over the years teaching students in graduate programs who are assigned to become marriage and family therapists, many, sometimes I felt like most of them, really featured finishing graduate school and getting out and doing individual therapy for that very reason. So these would be people with marriage and family therapy degrees who really want to stick with just individuals. Thank you very much. Yes, it is a gift to be able to do couples therapy well. So it's wonderful that you're both doing that. So when we come back from the break, let's talk a little bit more, finish it up, see where we're going, okay? Sure. Therapy Cable is the missing piece in the puzzling question, what is the role of the cyber world in healthcare? Therapy Cable has created a marketplace where healthcare finally meets technology in a consumer-friendly way. We use online technology to bring together various entities of healthcare in one central place. It's easy to access from any internet platform. We provide educational videos on topics like acupressure, medicine, psychotherapy, and yoga. You can confidentially use this information in the privacy of your home. You can stay connected to the provider of your choice or even see your provider in person. Get started today at therapycable.com. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. about one piece. I loved your word for it earlier, Julianne. Patience. Really, really advocating patience with the process. I think this is part of the value of good information is that with more information, understanding kind of the nature of recovery and what's going on for both individuals, let's say in a couple's relationship, is to be patient with themselves and with one another. I think information in this sense is power, and I think it can really be in service of patience. It is a process. It will take time, but there can be hope. I think one of the things that Colleen and I were talking about during the break is this work is so meaningful to us. My work is in recovery coaching with individuals. Colleen's work is working with couples. I'm involved in writing curriculum for training of therapists who are working themselves with couples, but it really is so important to me that we have this kind of understanding of what's going on in our lives. It's so satisfying to realize this information lands, when it lands on fertile ground, people, couples, families can take this home and they can apply it. Part of it is just to extend grace and patience to one another. I think for an addict in early recovery to be able to begin to experience empathy for what his or her loved one has gone through and is going through is a huge stride forward. It's very meaningful to do that and vice versa. It's so meaningful to me to be able to train people and orient them towards helping couples where the loved one can begin to understand what's happening in the brain of the addict hijacks anybody's brain. It's not to excuse it, but it is to begin to move towards, ideally towards forgiveness, but also towards a more compassionate understanding is that it's going to be a long road to hope, but that there will be progress week by week, month by month. Hang in there. I think patience is a good watchword here. And I appreciate you naming that. Yeah. And the mindfulness component is really important. And just to have them slow down, do some deep breathing, feel exactly what's going on with their bodies, because sometimes they're so detached from it, from having used, especially if they've used for a significant amount of time, that's really difficult to just have them slow down because we've been working with them with meditation and some of them really have difficulty going. And I think that's a really important part of it. And I think that's a really important part of it. And I think that's a really important part of it. And I think that's a really important that just slowing down. A lot of times they'll walk out, they'll become anxious and agitated. So yeah, it's watching the process though, as, as they stay longer within rehabilitation is a beautiful thing because I start seeing better, more healed people. And just to see these nuances of their personalities shine through is phenomenal. It really is. really is. I love doing that part of the work. If they stay in their hang and, and trust in the process and trust in themselves, build their self-esteem, build their self-love. So what else would you like to add to the, the show that, that you thought, well, we didn't really touch on that and just a quick wrap up on it. Sure. Yeah. I think, I think two things. One, I would want to say more to the addiction community and one, I would want to say more to the couple of specialists and that is to the, to the addiction community. I'd want to say to please understand more about the attachment realm and why relationships have survival value. And this idea that we talked about earlier, of interdependence as opposed to codependence. I think we're so used to looking with an eagle eye for codependence. We forget about the importance and the vicissitudes of interdependence. And so just to, to realize that there's reasons why the loved one is so freaked out and they're, they're very valid reasons. And I want to say to the couple specialists out there to really, we've, we've talked about this before, but I think it's very helpful to understand and educate yourself more about pause and really understand how the addict who is in recovery is really struggling in those early months. And even though they may look really good on the outside, you know, they're clean, they're sober, they look healthier. They look like they're with it. There's still so much going on inside. That's not, you can't always see, but the person, the relationship sees it. And so to really have some understanding and bandwidth, so that you're not going to be doing really intense in-depth work in those early stages, you want to kind of go slow. You really want to assess for pause, listen to what the person who's living with them is, is witnessing. So I would, I think those two pieces are something I'd really want to put out there to those two communities. Yeah. Yeah. That's a perfect marriage because I tell you during my training and probably during most MFT training, they teach you either couples therapy or they have substance abuse classes. They don't talk about both. So this is wonderful that you're integrating this. This information is really needed now. When is your book Plural Recovery coming out? We're hoping, we're hoping by the end of the spring, that's our aim. We're, we're, we're on the down, down home stretch here. And when it is finished up and published and ready for public, the public, I'd love for both of you to come back on. And talk more in depth about that because I know we had a really good response when you came out to the rehabilitation center in Santa Ana. So I really appreciate that you're on. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. And if anybody would like to contact you, how can they do so? You can go to my website, which is my name, Colleen and the initial M and then Kelly and then MFT.com. Okay. And that's K-E-L-L-Y for your life? Last name? Right. Yeah. Okay. And you, Bob? Mine's pretty simple. You can email me at Bob at Dr. Bob Weathers. Just one word, D-R-B-O-B Weathers, like the weather outside with an S on the end, dot com. And I'm happy to respond to any questions you have. I'd be happy to hear from you. Love to hear from you. Wonderful. And we loved having you on and looking forward to having you on again this year. So thank you very much. Thanks so much. Real pleasure. A real honor. Thank you, Julianne. Thanks. Thank you. Have a great evening. Bye-bye. And if anybody would like to contact me, my phone number is 562-209-1837. You can email me at J-G-O-O-D-E-8 at verizon.net. You can friend me at Psych1on1 or at Julie Ann Good. I would love to contact you. Let me know what you would like to hear in the future. Always love to hear from you. And it's been a great show. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Dr. Weathers and Colleen Kelly. And thank you so much for listening in again. I really appreciate your outstanding fellowship here. So keep it going. Thank you so much. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye now.