Interview with Dr. Deborah Warner on refugee trauma and prison psychology

Thank you. And this is Psych One-on-One. Welcome. We are here to make psychology more understandable and accessible for you, your family, and your friends with tips to help you in your everyday life. Tonight, I am having on as my special guest, Dr. Deborah Warner by Skype. She was on my show about a year and a half ago, and we were talking about violence in general. She is a forensic psychologist and very knowledgeable in what we are going to be talking about this evening, which is refugees seeking safety. Hi, Dr. Warner. How are you? Good. How are you, Julianne? Wonderful. I'm glad we could finally connect. It's been quite the journey. Can you tell the listening audience a little bit about your background? Sure. I am a licensed forensic psychologist, and I've been doing this work for about 21 years. And one of the things that I do is I only work with males, and I only work with incarcerated males or males that are leaving or part of the legal system. And I also work for ICE, which is the military force of Homeland Security through a private contracting company. And so I know a lot about what you're talking about today. And one of the things that I also do, which is going to be happening July 6th and 7th, is I do a conference for people. I'm a public health attorney for male survivors of trauma and violence at the California Endowment Center. And you can go to thescriptconference.com and look at that or contact me if there's more information that you want to know about this topic. All the information is there. But I do specialize in only working with males of survivor trauma because there are unique issues that go with that, especially people who have PTSD or have been traumatized in the past and are seeking safety. That's wonderful. That sounds like it. That's intense work. So what made you decide to go into doing that specialty? You know, it's interesting. There's a lot of reasons, but, you know, a lot of times populations pick you. And I remember I was at my first facility, and I didn't know what forensic patients were. And I remember this particular patient tore a payphone off the wall, and he did that to his girlfriend. And I was there talking to police, and I was just an intern. And I remembered that I really wanted to do that. Like, I wasn't afraid of it. I knew what to do. It was like second nature. And then I realized there was something about working with males that I was pretty good at. And then there was something about working with males who were violent and had trauma. And so I haven't met many females who do the work that I do. I mean, at the prison that I currently am at, I was the only girl for a very long time. And they had never seen another female psychologist to do that. And so I really like the people who, you know, really have a different take on how to. But I really like the people who people don't like to reach out to and really have those traumatized issues and, you know, helping other people understand it in a different way. So it's kind of like I don't know what other population to work with rather than how did I pick it. I don't know if I do anything else. Does that make sense? It does. And I agree with you with what your work kind of picks you sometimes. That's what happened to me also. And I also work with male population who's been in and out of prison. And I've worked with a lot of people who've been in prison and jail. And they're fascinating. And their stories can be so dense sometimes that it's hard to find out where did everything start from? Where did the trauma start from? So how do you work with these male clients who are often violent? I mean, when you went into it, were you really concerned about your safety? People ask me that all the time. And I always say. No. Why would I be? I mean, you know, it's funny because my guys will say stuff to me. And I mean, they'll tell me like some of the most horrific things. And I thought, yeah, but I'd never hurt you. I said, well, yeah, I know that. They go, you know why? And I say, why? And they go, because you'd never set off a time bomb. And I'm like, nope. They go, you would never do anything that would really set me off. I said, no, why would I do that? Why would you put meat in front of a lion? Like, it doesn't make sense to me. I know the things not to do. And also, it's a respect thing. You know, why would you do that to somebody you respect? And so I always treat them with respect and humanity. And so that goes a long way. And one of the things I've learned in those settings is that they all protect me. And I am so well protected in there more than anything. And it's because I treat them with humanity and respect. And, you know, it's funny because I've done groups. I've done individual. And, you know, one of the little things I do is I always wear Hello Kitty stuff. You know, and then I always give them stickers, you know, in Hello Kitty. And these are like hardcore guys. And I want my sticker. I'm like, you want the Hello Kitty? Yes, I want my sticker. And it's because it's so normal and humane to me to do this. They love it because I'm treating them like normal people. Right. And that's what really goes far with me. And then I get into a lot of the stuff that's caused the trauma and the violence and why they're fleeing and running. And I get to know all that because I'm human. And so being human is the thing that I would say goes further than anything you can do with this population. So you're just basically being down to earth and being nonjudgmental and coming in. And as you said, you're respecting them. You're respecting them as human beings and a very deep story to tell you. So how long does it usually take for a prisoner to start opening up and telling you his real story? You know. In all the years that I've done this, I can never give you a pinpoint. Like, you know, they always say eight sessions is the magic session, you know, and it's not. I've had people come in the first day and for some reason they feel comfortable and they start crying. I had this one person come in and seriously, for like 20, 30 minutes, he just sat there and wept. And I'm not talking like just tears. I'm talking like, you know, mucus coming out the nose and on his shirt and where, you know, and I knew not to move. Like I knew if I moved, it would break the moment. And so I just sat there, you know, and there's some people who just want to know, dude, she's kind of odd or is this for real? That's a lot of times they're like, am I for real? Because they can't believe I just be a nice person. Right. And that takes a long time. I remember I worked with someone at least who got to be had to be six months and I sat in silence with them because they just but they came every week. You know, I'm like, all right. So I have my cashews. I'd have my little Hello Kitty cup. I would sit there and eat my cashews and drink. My soda. You know, and then he'd say, I'll come back next week. I'm like, OK. I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew that I sat there. So it really depended on who it was. And then all of a sudden I heard this story about how he ran and how he got here and and how he's scared. And and I'm just going, oh, my God, that was that was bottled up in you for that long, you know, and. And what country was he from originally? Um. Where was he? Where was he from? One of the African countries. Yeah. And I and, you know, it was just I was just like, oh, my God, you know, I you know, and I you know, you hear hearing that stuff firsthand is what is amazing, you know, and and hearing that stuff and sitting there with someone who they wouldn't believe anyone would listen to them is what's really neat, you know. And he was a client, you know, that I had like years ago, but I never forgot that, you know. I never forgot how it took that long, you know. Well, I would imagine, too, that, you know, refugees coming from other countries coming to this country illegally or maybe even by by status that, you know, they were able to get asylum or whatever you want to call it. They come to this country and they have the expectations that they're going to be. Safe here. It's going to be paradise here because they hear all the stories or they've seen the Hollywood movies and they get here and it's tough. They have barriers that they have to get through. And sometimes they do have to commit crimes to just get through, like maybe like stealing something to be able to eat or what was your experience with working with refugees from other countries as to some of the. Crimes that they committed. Well, you know, I think back when I was in New York, I had, you know, when you work with refugees, the one thing you have to do is be available. Does that make sense? Because they're yeah, they're fleeing and they're and they're not used to having people around. They're always testing it and they're so anxious. The anxiety is so high and the PTSD is so high and you have to be available. And and, you know, a lot of times that anxiety plays into the types of crimes that they commit. Right. So if they're trying to. To just be warm, you know, their instinct is there's their coat that I could steal, you know, and things like that. And so a lot of times you're trying to change their thinking to where they trust you. And so a lot of times they have gotten here and gotten delusioned. Right. And thought once I get to America, it's the land of opportunity. And yet there's no one helping. You know, they don't know what program they don't speak the language. Right. They don't know where to go. And then they hear if I just get to Skid Row, everything will be OK. Because there's so many programs. Right. But they get to Skid Row and there's thousands of people fighting for what they want. And these people have lived on the streets here and they know the ins and outs. And so things happen to them and they get re-traumatized. Right. Or they trust someone in the bus station, you know, and they don't realize just because it's America doesn't mean that everybody's good. You know, and then you get the ones that nothing can be worse than where they came from. They're like, I'm in America. It doesn't matter. I'm in America. They think Skid Row is paradise. It is better than what they had. So it's really a range. Yeah. So how often then I would imagine that you're working with interpreters most of the times with the refugees. So how does that work? Because you have another person in the room. There's, you know, there's always that sacred space of confidentiality that no matter who you have in front of you as a client or a patient, they have that right for confidentiality. How do you work it with an interpreter? Well, they sign something saying they want an interpreter. If they don't sign anything, then the interpreter is not there. And part of it is that you have to get the right language for them to sign for the interpreter. Right. So doing it kind of retroactively. But a lot of times you have to do that. And then, you know, I'm very clear. I want everything verbatim. And sometimes they'll censor it. You know, I'm like, no, no, no. I need it verbatim. Even if it's something that doesn't translate to my language. You know, please. Please say it in their language. So I know it's not a word that translates, you know, and then describe it to me. You know, and so a lot of times that helps. But what I've learned to do, it is so weird. But I've learned to speak to them in kind of a sign language sometimes. Like, so when I really get to know them and I may not know their language, I can, since I've heard so many dialects, I can kind of pick up on certain things. So sometimes it's a matter of me miming what they're talking about. And then I can kind of get what's going on. Because. They feel uncomfortable with an interpreter, to be honest, a lot of times. And so a lot of times they've picked up enough English or I've picked up enough of their language that we can communicate. And so it works out, you know, sometimes. I have. But I have people that we don't even talk. We draw together. And so I. Yeah, I'm very creative in how I go about working with people. And so sometimes I use art and getting them to talk to me. Or sometimes some of them write me stories. Right. And then I can get it translated or Google Translate is a wonderful tool, by the way. And so it's completely accurate, but it's enough that I know what's going on, you know. And so a lot of times that helps. But then sometimes a lot of the people speak more than one language. And so sometimes I'll say, how many languages do you speak? OK, which ones do you speak? Because I can speak a lot of broken French. So sometimes just having that much and a little bit of Spanish, I can talk to them. So, you know, it's really about the creativity of it. You know, I do a lot of board games. You get a lot of information from board games. People don't think that. Right. Like if you have like I don't know, like if you're playing Battleship. Right. It tells you memory. It tells you processing. It tells you your ability to think like the other person and problem solving. You see that? Oh, yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. And how you have to do a strategy. You have to be able to put pieces together of a strategy to get the other person. And how do you react to that? Do you cheat? Like, see how many things I learned? Just by playing Battleship. So tell you go about it. That's great. I like that. I think I'm going to use that. Thank you. Because I've done that with child therapy, but not so much with adult therapy. But really, I mean, when you're going into doing trauma work, sometimes it's just so beneficial to sit there and get down to almost a childlike level and let them re-explore those feelings that they felt. Especially, you know. In war zones, when there's such helplessness and hopelessness going on. Yeah. I can't imagine the stories that you have heard over the years. What is one of the stories that comes to your mind that was just relatively shocking to you when you heard it? You know, I don't get shocked all that much anymore. I used to. A lot. But when you hear the same type of stuff over and over, you know they can't be making it up. So the things that shock me are when it's the same theme. And I say, man, you know, I heard that 10 years ago and people are still doing that? Like, it blows my mind that there's still, that's still happening in this world and we're supposed to have become a better place and we're supposed to be helping other people and taking other people in and, you know, and having more humanity. Because we've grown. We want to bring back the indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring back indigenous peoples and we want to bring speaker event a couple of weekends ago for an anthropology conference. And it was Dr. Laura Nader, Ralph Nader's sister, who's a famous anthropologist. She just came out in a book how the rest of the world views the West. And it was the same sort of theme. It's like, well, we accuse certain countries of doing atrocities and we're doing the same thing here. But it's in a different form. But we're pointing the figure out that, well, look what they're doing. They're beasts and they're savages and monsters and everything else. But you're right. We're committing the same sort of thing in this country. It's just not that publicized. It's a little more covert. Yeah, it's a different flavor, right? And there's a book that I read in college called American Coalition. And it's called American Coalition. And it's a book that I read in college called American Coalition. And it's a book that I read in college called American Coalition. And it's a book that is the most amazing book because it talks about how we're ethnocentric. Like we see everything through our own lens and we never take on someone else's lens. And one of the examples is like if you go to like an Asian country, I think it was either Japan or China, but the street signs show up right when you're getting off the freeway. Right. But if you go to us, we have signs like all the way down. OK, seven miles, 10 miles. We talk to the the. The observer that may never be there. Right. And so we assume that's how it's going to be in another country. And then we get mad because we miss our exit. What about taking out a map? Right. What's that? So we see the world as it should be just like us. But the problem is it's not. There's so many other patterns in there. And then we do those things. But we put we point the finger at other cultures and we're not fixing every single one of them. Right. And so we assume that's how it's going to be in another country. And then we get mad because we miss our exit. What about taking out a map? Right. What's that? Yeah. 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We use online technology to bring together various entities of healthcare in one central place. It's easy to access from any internet platform. We provide educational videos on topics like acupressure, medicine, psychotherapy, and yoga. You can confidentially use this information in the privacy of your home. You can stay connected to the provider of your choice or even see your provider in person. Get started today at therapycable.com. And welcome back to Psych One-on-One with Julianne Good and Dr. Deborah Warner. We are talking about working with refugee population in the prison system and the difficulties that they go through. So Dr. Warner, what seems to be the most prevalent problems that the refugee population has to deal with? What do refugees come in with when they enter the prison system? Well, even beyond the prison system, just getting here, but one of the things that I have learned is there's a lot of PTSD. And there's a lot of trauma, and there's a lot of anxiety, and there's a lot of distrust. And depending on the person, a lot of times they could have a lot of mental illnesses like hallucinating and things like that. But also there's a lot of substance abuse, you know, because they're trying to cope. And because they haven't, probably been properly medicated. And so one of the things I look at is that I try to assess their substance abuse. And I try to assess when they let me in, you know, what traumas they've experienced, because that will tell me a lot about the path that I'm working with, how they got here, but also what things I need to piece together to help them deal with everything that they've gone through. Because a lot of times they don't even connect, like, what happened to them. They don't even know how they're feeling right now. You know, all of it's connected, like your mind, your body, all of that, how you feel is connected to what you've experienced. You know, there's this great study called the ACEs study by Dr. Valetti. And he's at Kaiser Permanente Scripps Hospital. And he did this study about people who've had childhood trauma, and how that connects to your illnesses, like your cancer and heart disease and things like that. And believe it or not, I mean, I've seen with this population, how ill they are. And it's a lot of times it's connected to the traumas that they've experienced, you know, like, and, you know, how they, they may walk with a limp or something. And I find out that, you know, that leg was broken when they when they were fleeing or by someone who was abusing them before they left, you know, and it's like, they don't even see the connection. You know, they can't even put it together. It's probably too hard to put it together for them. But also, they don't realize that's something they should talk about. And so a lot of times I'm trying to put the story together together. And I'm trying to put the story together together. And I'm trying to get them to talk about it. And they get them to talk about what's what, you know, where they want to be, you know, in the future. And a lot of times they don't have any future thinking. It's like right here, right now, I'm a surviving, I'm alive, you know, and I learned if you don't get them to think about a future, a lot of times they can't move forward and put things behind them. So, yeah. Yeah, especially, you know, if you think about a person fleeing, and I did some refugee, you know, I did some research for one of my papers. Fascinating, because when I was over in Vienna, in Salzburg, three weeks ago, I could not believe how many refugees were on the streets and begging. It was, it was shocking. So here they, here they're shipped from their home country, if they can get out to begin with, because I had read that it was women, children, and the ill that they were trying to get out first. So a lot of times, they were leaving behind them, and they were being picked up by these, these terrorist groups, just for sheer survival. Yeah. So they, they, you know, get shipped around from camp to camp, or they get to country borders, and they're saying, no, we're not going to accept any more refugees, or you don't have any identification, we're not going to let you in. So they're shut down, and, and they have to turn around and be shipped back to their home country. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I mean, it's just appalling that, that people are being shipped around like this. Like cargo. Like cargo, yes, or like cattle. And so they, they need basic water and food, they need clothing, they need medical attention and shelter, and all of these things that a lot of us here take for granted. And I, I can't fathom how difficult that must be, so, you know, and then whatever they went through in their home countries on top of it, you know, being grilled by the government, or grilled by the terrorist groups, or maybe held captive. So all of this plays out into what's called complex PTSD, as trauma on top of trauma, on top of trauma. So where do you go when you have to start with a person that's in front of you, that has such a complex history like that? Sometimes I just sit, I don't even go anywhere. I just sit there and wait and see what they start with. And then when they open up, a lot of times, a lot of times I've cut to the chase and said, what's the worst thing? What's the worst thing that ever happened to you? Or what's the worst thing you saw? Right? And then I usually ask, what's the best thing that's ever happened to you? Because what I'm doing is I'm shifting the thought, right? Yes. And so I asked those two questions. And usually I, if they're the same thing, then I really have a lot of work to do, right? But if they can have something different, then that's helpful. One of the things that I've done, and it's really helps me like uncover the complex trauma, is I do a lot, like I said, I do drawing, but I have them draw the best day of their life, and I have them draw the worst day of their life. And that is so telling. That makes sense. Because as you said, that cuts straight to the chase. This is where it's at. So what was one of the worst war crimes that you had heard of? Oh, goodness. You know, anytime I hear about children, that's the ones that get me, you know, and the abandonment. Like you talked about people being moved around like cattle, and having to leave behind their small children, not even knowing where they're at. They've just been moved. You know what I mean? Or they've taken them. They just come to the village and taken them. And you don't know where your child is, and you'll never know, because they just come and taken them. And then those kids have abandonment, because they think the parents may have abandoned them, or just let them be taken. And so whenever I hear those types of things, like I can, I've dealt, I've dealt with the hanging, I dealt with the bag being put up, the plastic bag being put over your head, and being taken away. Like I heard like all of that. Whenever I hear the crime, I think, wow, what kind of person is that? You know, and how, and then I think, how desperate was that person to have to go to that? Then I think about it from the other perspective of who taught you that that was okay, because you don't just learn to do those things to children, right? So I mean, yeah, there are people who are just evil, but the pattern that happens with it is because of the circumstances around you. And so I think about it as a way of like, wow, like, what kind of terror were you living to now think that that's okay? And that always gets me when I think about the layers, you talk about complex trauma. I'm thinking about the layers of social learning. And that's what scares me. Yeah, definitely. It's like, as you said, who taught you this? Why, why would that start? But you know, it all comes down to basic survival. If it's, you know, I'm going to stay alive, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do this, atrocious act, which one are you going to choose? A lot of people can't, can't think of that, if they would be in that kind of situation. A lot of the refugees go through that. On a daily basis. Yes. You know, and I think about, you know, like, the abandonment issues they all have, you know, and I always look at Freudian theory, but all your stuff comes from your first attachment. Imagine that that's your first attachment. That's your first sense of love and care and respect. So your whole world is skewed for the rest of your life, right? And see, people don't want to think about it that way, you know, and I work a lot with people who are gang invested or involved, right? And, you know, I was just talking to someone today, and I'm like, everybody says gangs are bad, but you know what, there could be some good things to it. You know, there could be something like you, you know, if you don't, if your parents have all abandoned you, and no one takes care of you, because your mother's a drug addict, your grandma's a drug addict, and, and your dad's a drug addict, and you're a drug addict, and you're a drug addict, and your dad's abandoned you, and your sisters don't care about you, and you're the last one, and, but, you know, the ice cream man comes, and you don't have any money, but the, the guy who's in a gang always gives you money for the ice cream man. You're going to think that's okay, right? And you stay out of trouble, and you go, you do good, and then, you know, when you're old enough, you get put in the gang. You don't think anything's wrong with that, you know? It's a substitute family, basically. Yeah, yeah, and so, but there, there is something to that. What's wrong is a lot of the behaviors that come from it, right? But that doesn't mean that there isn't something someone got out of that, you know? So, sometimes I try to get people to look at it a different way, you know? They're just people just like us, and now maybe they make decisions that we wouldn't make, but that, that doesn't mean that they're bad, you know? It means that let's figure out what, what happened there, or let's see what, what can be changed so that, you know, they can, they can make strides, too. Not everybody starts the same starting line. Some people start, like, 30 paces back. So, you got to think about that. Right, and one of the things that I read, too, from the American Psychological Association, and I thought that was really good. We have a tendency in Western psychology to pathologize everything. We want to diagnose. We want to put a label on somebody, but when you are put through extraordinary conditions, such as the refugees have gone through, then I think you need to put on a different lens, and what the, one of the recommendations was, was when you are dealing with anybody that has been a refugee, think about what that person has been through. Think about the strength that he or she possesses, and the resiliency, and the tenacity to just get through and survive, and then start changing. Your viewpoint into that, and try helping the person. Yeah, and that's one of the things I do. I always say, God, because they cry, and they say, I'm nothing. I haven't moved forward, and, you know, the anxiety, and I say, I think you're brilliant. I said, you know, I don't know if I could have been smuggled here in a crate, and still be able to call my family, and make jokes with my kids, because you don't want them to be scared for you. That's a resilience. You know what that word means? And I explain. I explain that, you know, because a lot of times, they don't even see where that's a positive. They don't even, they don't even put it together, the strength that they have, you know. So, I, sometimes, I think my job is just to get them to recognize something positive about themselves, you know, and something positive about who they are, you know. One of the other things I do, and people laugh at me, but it works for me. Sometimes, I give my clients nicknames that, that are about them. So, and they're always positive things I like. Oh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow They get really into that. And, you know, people like look at me like, what is she doing? And what I'm doing is I'm changing how other people see them, too, because since I'm so happy to see them, maybe other people will be. But maybe they'll be happy to see themselves because of how I see them. You know, so I'm giving them that strength that I see in them. And that hope. Yeah. They need to have hope reinstilled. Yeah. It's been stripped from them multiple times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they've never, you know, they're just they think they're the bottom of the rung. And they think that this is the way they're going to live the rest of their lives. And they have to be able to see a future. It comes back to that. Can I help them see an out to this? You know. So do you actually get those eight sessions you were talking about before? Sometimes. You know, if they're outpatient, which I don't really see many people outpatient anymore. But one. And I do. A lot of times I get them inside. It depends. It depends on how long they're going to be there. It depends on their sentencing. It depends on, you know, if they're just being detained versus that they're in prison or they're going to prison. It really depends on the person because I've worked in multiple settings. So I've worked from the incarcerated to the detainment to the they're just there for one day so they can figure out what to do with them. So they're just there for travel, you know. And so I have to figure out if they're OK to travel. Like, so it really depends. It really depends on what my question is and why I'm seeing them, you know. So do you work if you are allowed to see them for more than a handful of sessions? Do you get in there and teach them coping skills? Do you teach him like cognitive behavioral therapy types of of methods? Yeah, I have done CBT with a lot of people. I am really. I really match myself to fit the client. So there are some people that I'm purely just gestalt. I'm right here right now. What are we doing? And then there's other people where I'm very like, you need to change your thinking. And I'm really honest with them. I said, is that really is that thinking really good for you? Or is it kind of flawed? Like, how is that going to benefit you? You know, or there's people I'm talking about their origin issues of their parents and their family and how they got in this mess. And OK, so your mom wasn't. The best thing. So is that why you're here for domestic violence? Like, you know, and so I'm trying to connect those dots. It really depends. But the thing that I always do is I try to create a safe space, whatever that is. I try to make sure that they feel comfortable with me. And that could be sitting in silence. I could be playing battleship for hours on end. You know, poker is another one. They like poker, you know, and it could it could be whatever that is. I have to make a safe space because I'm not going to get anywhere. Unless I do. You know, so and, you know, some of them, it's about having humor. And some some people, they don't like humor because they can't trust it. So I'm just there and I'm very stoic, you know, and it's very hard because it's not my personality. But that's who I need to be for that person. You know, so I really try to match whatever that is so I can create a safe space and lessen the anxiety, you know. So you had to be a psychological comedian, chameleon, chameleon. Hey, Freudian slip comedian and chameleon. Right. Sometimes that's kind of how it is. And I know that there's other psychologists out there who say do this and do it this way when you're working with people like this. But, you know, I've learned over the years, it's just there is no reason or rhyme or reason to it. You have to make sure they're safe and available. And, you know, and the anxiety is is the thing that you have to look at because the PTSD goes with that. And it's compound. It's complex. Like you have to you have to hear the whole story. And you're not going to get the whole story all at once. No. And sometimes depending on who the client is, you're going to get it in bits and pieces. Yeah. And then sometimes it's going to be embroiled in fibbing and lying. And so you have to, you know, deconstruct that and get to where is their truth? Where are they at the moment? You're right. I mean, it's just getting that anxiety level to get calmed down and trying to see where you're going. Yeah. And then you're going to have to start to see where that core human being is and working with that core. And you said something that hit it right on the head. One of the things I see is a lot of lying or confabulation, however you want to say it, you know, but it's not that they're lying. See, and that's what I try to get people to understand sometimes. I'm like, maybe in that moment that was their reality. And that's how they saw it, you know, and then how they're explaining it to you may seem like a change from week to week. But that's really how they're explaining it to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the pieces themselves. When you're traumatized, you're piecing it together, right? You're not seeing it in a clear picture in your head, you know, and you may not have all the pieces. Someone else who was there might hold another piece and you just talk to them and you're like, oh my gosh, that did happen because they didn't have the whole piece. Right. Especially sexually abused kids. They have siblings with a piece of the memory and sometimes they get together and they get the whole memory. That happens a lot, you know, and so you can't blame the survivor. You have to, you have to realize where they're coming from, you know? Yes, I agree with that. And we're going to take another break and let's come back in from that angle and then we're going to finish up and see what else we forgot to talk about on this. This is really deep. I really appreciate you being on, Dr. Warner. Not a problem. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous psychology, behavioral, and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses, Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, D.C., and online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health needs of society through classroom experience and real-world training. The Chicago School Counseling Center is an urban-based school that offers a variety of courses, including the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology and Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit thechicagoschool.edu. I picked up the rose you left me All its petals fluttered to the ground They slip right through I picked up the rose you left me They slip right through My outreach fingers A thousand memories crashing down I press it up to my face Oh, I inhale that need Now it only hurts I feel like I'm in a dream When I breathe The sweet scent of your cologne lingers On your favorite shirt, baby And welcome back to Psych 101 with Julianne Good and Dr. Deborah Warner. We are finishing our conversation about working with the refugee population in prison and just the refugee crisis. We had a few questions we had had So as we were cutting to a commercial, we were talking about the background of a lot of the prisoners that you're working with, the abuse history that they came in with. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more? Well, it really depends on the person. I mean, some of them have sexual abuse history. Some of them have physical abuse history. Some of them have, you know, some have been human trafficked, you know. And so they come in. I mean, why would they trust anybody? And a lot of them have a lot of fear of police because the police in their country were corrupt. So you expect them to follow law and order here? I mean, they couldn't trust that. They couldn't trust, oh, they're just going to sleep it off in the police station, you know. So creating, you know, creating a safe space is important. But you have to realize how distrustful they are depending on what happened, especially if it was definitely a sexual thing that happened to them. There's the whole violation of their body that goes into that. You know, and so you have to look at that differently, especially a male survivor of sexual trauma. One of the things people understand is that they can't tell anybody. Our society does not allow that. And so when I have someone who I suspect because it's one of the things I specialize in, I really try to make sure they feel comfortable and safe because until they get that out, I can't get anywhere with them, you know. And so a man who's been sexually violated. There is so much. That's there and they don't like being touched. They don't like confiding in anybody. They they go to different extremes. There's so much substance abuse that goes into that. And that's secret. They feel dirty. They feel they feel like no one cares about them and that they're less of a man, you know. And so I do a lot of support, supportive therapy, but a lot of role playing with them, just how to interact with their spouses and with their, you know, their significant others, because they they have a hard time even revealing that, you know. And then especially and then if there's violence that goes with it or they've seen violence or they watch someone die and they say this is because of you, this is happening and they they kill their mother or their parent or their loved one or their children in front of them. You have something that's added and then they were sexually violated. On top of that, you have shame, you have guilt, you have. I mean, so it really, really depends on who that person is, which way you go. But you definitely have to see what the trauma is before you can. A lot of times. Move forward with it, you know. Mm hmm. Yeah. And how many times have you sat with a prisoner and thought. I'm maybe hopefully planting some seeds, but you just had this feeling like, you know, what's going to happen with you when you're released? What's going to happen with you when you're out in the general public again? Oh, man. You know, I've had that. I've had that happen just about every time, you know, because they have a they have a goal when they're with me. You know, I get them. I get to get them out of their cell for a while that, you know, come do something else, you know. But, you know, I've seen ones like I was working in a juvenile facility one time and I and I mean, I really worked with this kid for a year, a year. And when he was on heroin is when he would completely get violent. Right. And he had major abandonment, major trauma issues going on. And I said, you know, if you stay away from the heroin, you're OK. And a lot of times medication will help change them and stabilize them. I've seen that happen. Well, he went out and he got angry and he tried to use his coping skills. And one of his friends had heroin and he used and he threw his father through a window. And then when I came to see him, I said, what happened? And and he and he just looked at me and I saw what happened. And then. And then I said, wait, I realized something. He was 18 in a few days. He would get released anyways. And then his brother was very stable. He went to go live with his brother that he used that violence so that he could get away from his family and then disappear. And he disappeared. And I never saw him again. So there is always a goal. And I'm thinking I could sit there and think, oh, my God, I was a failure. Oh, my God. But then I said, no, think about it a different way. He knew he couldn't. He didn't stay in that environment. He didn't kill his father. He just used that to get away from him so that he could escape because he knew at 18 they would they would send him wherever he wanted to go. But his father wouldn't. See. Yeah. Wow. Right. Wow is right. Yeah. What do you do? I mean, some some of the stories are just you can't piece them together logically. No. But for the reality that the client was in. It makes sense. It makes sense. But could I have put that together? No. Right. I'm dealing with a different lifestyle, a different way of looking at things. So it's amazing to me. It is with the facility that you work with. Do they have trainings and support systems that you as a therapist and also the other facility employees? Can tap into? Oh, there's always support. I have not been in a facility that didn't have something for the employees, you know, because you have to, you know, so there's always someone to talk to. But one of the things I encourage people who want to do this work is to create your own support network because you're going to have to talk to people about things that you may not want to talk about. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying break confidentiality or tell names. I'm saying that APA guidelines is you seek consultation. Correct? Mm-hmm. So always have those people that you talk to because it may be something that you want to navigate through the system with that you need someone to vent at and look at from a different perspective. So, yeah, there's always training. There's always support. They have to do that by accreditation standards. But I always tell people to please seek out your own, you know, support network. And that's what's going to be helpful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And not talk about work. With some of the network, right? I have to do that. There's a lot of times I have to go out with friends who are non-therapists. Yeah. Because it's just I don't want to talk about work. I have to set it aside. We're not supposed to do that. When we're done with our therapy day, we are supposed to set it aside and go and live our own lives. Yeah. That's what is healthy. It is healthy. You have to have a balance. One of my good friends is a rocket scientist. I can't believe that it's so vastly different from what I do. But to sit here and hear him talk about jet propulsion or whatever, it's like, oh, okay. I don't have to think about anything for this hour. Oh, okay. And I'll try and listen to all of you, but don't ask me to repeat back the details, right? I know. Yeah, that is true. So as we are starting to wrap this up, is there anything else you want to talk about about the work that you're doing? Or about your teaching over at Chicago School? Well, one of the things I want to say is also get people in group therapy. Because the more they have people to talk to that's about them, the more helpful that is for the refugee or any kind of survivor of trauma. Because they need someone to relate to. Especially, you know, you can't tell them about you. You can empathize. But they may not even, if you are a survivor, it may not be best for you to tell them. But if you're not, they're going to know. Because you're going to have different behaviors likely. So one of the things you should do is get them to talk. Get them a support group. You know? And also, medication. I'm not saying I'm pro-medication or not. But I'm saying for a lot of people, it's very helpful. And getting them with a good psychiatrist that understands their special needs that they have is very helpful. I watched someone who was completely psychotic. And now they are so lucid and with me and sharp because they got the right combination of medication. And they're able to talk about the trauma. I've seen it just change. And there's other people that may not work so well. But doing that and working with a good team of people treating someone, that is helpful. So I would say make sure you seek out medication consultation and get them in group treatment. Yeah. And hopefully they can get that as soon as possible. Yeah. Yeah. And without bailing out or being shipped someplace else. Or like you said before, you know, there's sentences reduced and they're released. And there's only. So much help. So hopefully there are agencies that you can connect them up with. Correct? Yes. Yeah. There are agencies or, you know, there's a lot of government stuff or depends on depending on what prison you're in. You know, they have different officers or they have case managers that know that stuff. So definitely. Yeah, we had Officer D.N. Joseph in here a couple of weeks ago. And he was talking about all the agencies. in the Skid Row area and talking about working with the refugee population also. So, and I know that Chicago School is affiliated with quite a few of those agencies. Can you name like one of them off the top of your head? Oh, I would, you know, think about the Midnight Mission. We have our own counseling center there in Westwood also, and in Irvine that could be helping the Chicago School. You can always go on the Chicago School website and look this stuff up and look up our counseling centers, but you also, oh my goodness, you know, there are so many and now I'm blanking out on them. But you know, if you go into the resource guide, you can actually download it. And some people call it the Rainbow Book and some people call it the resource guide. And you can actually look at all the different treatment facilities and look at them by specialization and it will definitely give you names, phone numbers, contact information. You can definitely do that. And that, that has always been my little go-to for who I'm working with, you know? And then, you know, you can always call an organization. Even if you just have their number and ask them, what do they recommend? The Downtown Women's Center is one. And if they can't treat them, they always give a referral. So just try and reach out with people is always, always helpful. And what would you recommend to the listening audience if they have somebody in their life that is a refugee and they're having difficulties? And they don't quite know how to support that person? I would tell them to reach out and try to get help. Even if it's just calling the first name in the phone book, at least they called someone and then that person can give them a resource, you know? And so never think that you're alone. I mean, there's so many mental health professionals out there that just want to help. I mean, you know, I get emails all the time. Can you help me with this? Or, or do you know where to navigate? I will always take time out and send you to, if I can't help you, someone who can. So that goes for a lot of people in this field, you know? And again, our counseling center at the Chicago School definitely has resources available. If you called, we would give you a resource. That is just what we do because we're part of the community. One of the nation's leading, you know, organizations in psychology. We've been around for over 35 years. And what we do is community service. And we give away, oh, at least two to five, you know, at least two to five, you know, at least two to five, you know, at least two to five, you know, at least two to five, you know, $4 million of free service every year to the community. So anyone who calls, we try and help. And so just go to the website, you know, the Chicago School website and type it in, Google it. It will come right up. www.thechicagoschool.edu comes right up. Yeah. And they're doing some fabulous work in the Skid Row area, definitely. Yes. When I was going there for my master's, I, quite a few of my colleagues and classmates were working for the mission downtown. And I would have done that too, if I would have lived downtown, but I'm too far away. But yeah, definitely. And go ahead. No, and you know, the Chicago School's helping with the conference I talked about earlier. Yes, please, please come back to that. Yeah, we have students presenting and we have people from the community and just go to the website, you know, www.thescriptconference.com. And we have one of the chiefs of police talking. We have USC coming and Dr. Robert Hernandez, Akil Brasher. We have all of these people that are coming, male survivor from New York. We're talking to Matt Sandusky. They're all coming and talking and we don't pay presenters. They're doing this free of charge to the community. Last year, we had over 400 people come. We had like 70 presentations. You know, we're having film people from the entertainment business coming and reviewing films about male survivor trauma. But it's not, you know, one of the things we learn there is we talk about families. We talk about kids. We talk about women. We talk about the interaction because it's a community effort. And community together needs to come and do this. And it's free to anyone who wants to come. There is no charge. And if you're a professional, you can get CEs. So just come out. If you can't come both days, come one day, come an hour. But come and celebrate, you know, talking about trauma and survival. And we have people who take, you know, they're like, oh, I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor. Talking about trauma and survival. And we have people who take services, consumers of services, who come and present on what services they'd like to have. What better for a professional to know from the people that they're serving what's not working what is. It is a very unique perspective in conference. And it's July 6th and 7th at the California Endowment Center. You know, you can go to the website and www.thescriptconference.com or you, you know, and you will be amazed about what you can find there. And, and that this is completely free to the community. That is just what is so awesome. Yeah. And get appropriate support if you are a male survivor. That's so important. Yeah. That's not talked about enough. And, and it's, you know, as men in this society, they need to be supported too. I, we're human. Everybody who has been traumatized needs to go and get support. And some safety. Yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Deborah Warner. I really appreciate you being on and I love your energy. So keep up the good work. Thank you so much. And anytime. Thank you. And thank you for listening to Psych One-on-One. If you would like to contact me, my email is jgoode8 at verizon.net. My office number is 562-209-1837. Thank you. My profile is on Psychology Today website and Julie Ann Goode for Southern California. And my office is in Santa Ana, California. Please reach out and contact me. Or if you need any available services, please reach out, get them, get support. Okay. And thank you so much. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye