Philip Seymour Hoffman's death and heroin addiction with Doug Cain

I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair quest, quest, quest. Hello, this is Vic Cohen and it is a fair question. It is always a fair question. You're listening to us live from beautiful, stunning downtown Los Angeles This is Skid Row Studios. We are right by the corner of 7th and Olive. If you want to come by and say hi or look us up on the GPS. The reason I call the show It's a Fair Question is because on this show, there is no question that is ever too personal or ever off limits. That's right. Any question is a fair question. And tonight we are talking about something that is really serious and I find very disturbing. It's something that the hyperbole, the Hollywood or the press hyperbole, it's rocked Hollywood or all of America is talking. I hate when people say that. How do we know what all of America is talking about? But I can tell you this. I, Vic Cohen, am very upset and saddened by what happened with the very surprising death of Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I know a lot of my friends and people who loved his work and just people in general, who saw a young, relative young guy still in the prime of his career, a father of three, get cut down by addiction, heroin addiction. Now, just a reminder, it was about four days ago, Sunday morning, that Philip Seymour Hoffman was discovered on his Greenwich Village bathroom floor lying on his side, boxers and T-shirt, the needle stuck in his left arm, reading glasses still on his head. It's like shock. Got up and just dropped. Subsequently, police have found nearly 70 baggies of heroin. That's what's been reported. Of course, that number constantly is changing. But at this very moment, as I am broadcasting, it's 70 baggies. There are reported to have been 50 of them that were still full. And clearly, what was happening seemingly with all those bags of heroin, this wasn't going to be just one shot. Now, just to remind you a little bit about Philip Seymour Hoffman, not only is he a great actor, and as I mentioned, he has three kids. He has a 10-year-old son, Cooper. He has two daughters, a 7-year-old and a 5-year-old. And you got to ask yourself, or I'll say I've got to ask myself, and maybe you have, I'm not sure. But I certainly have, is why? I mean, this guy had everything. I mean, if you've seen these kids, go Google them online. Look up Philip Seymour Hoffman and look up children, and you're going to see these kids. He was taking them everywhere in New York. I mean, really cute kids. Had a partner, 14 years, a woman who clearly loved him. And there were reports they were having troubles. But this guy had a life that, you know, if you were to sit down and write down, what do I want in life? You know, everyone, most people, done an Oscar speech in front of the mirror or imagine themselves winning some kind of award, kind of fame he had, A-list celebrity friends, money, tons of money. And just from observing him, not having met him myself, he certainly seemed to be a guy who didn't revel in celebrity and seemed kind of to be a guy who, who wasn't bowled over by it, who didn't define himself by it, certainly. Although, of course, that's just speculation. I was never obviously in his head and never spoke with him. But it's a real tragedy, obviously. And it's upset me because, not only because he's a really talented guy, but, you know, I think that most of us, whether we realize it or not, or I'll say for myself, I mean, I've had some issues around addiction. At times I would say around sex or love or food, those kinds of things, but I've never stuck a needle in my arm. I was, I never thought you could, you know, I never thought like, like jerking off, you can't die from, you know. I'm a neurotic Jew. I'm afraid of death. You never found a guy dead in his bathroom floor, on his floor with his dick in his hand. I've never seen that. But maybe, maybe there's someone out there that's a little bit more, you know, that has happened to. But, you know, it's really amazing. I want, the hour we're gonna talk, over this hour, we're gonna talk about heroin addiction in particular. And I found a guy who we are really lucky to have. And, you know, sometimes things happen and I don't understand why they happen or how they happen, but they just happen. And you realize, I realize, that's exactly how they were supposed to happen. Now I'm talking, you know, Wednesday night, I did not have a guest for this show yesterday, probably at this time. No one. I knew what I wanted to talk about. I put out calls. So what I did is I knew I wanted to talk about Philip Seymour Hoffman's death, because I was upset about it. And I think it needs to be talked about in a new different kind of way than I'm seeing the way it's being talked about. So I wanted to learn about narcotics and where best to go than a place where I went to, a place that supports narcotic addicts. And I listened to their stories and I was moved. And I was also impressed by the gratitude that many of these people had and how their lives have changed. But also I saw how quickly things can change and shift from sobriety and gratitude to losing everything, just from being in a room for an hour and a half. And I came across, I talked to a fellow in this room, and I told him I was looking for someone for my show. And through a conversation, I ended up talking to our guest. Never met this guy sitting across from me till last night on a phone call. And he was amazingly just so open to coming out here. And he is a world expert in when it comes to addiction. He helps people deal with heroin addiction in their own personal battles, running his own business, and he's also recovered heroin addict. And his name is Doug Cain. Hello, Doug. Hi, Vic. Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Now, as I shared at the beginning of this show, I'm petrified of needles. How could you stick a needle in your arm? That's a good question. My answer is how could you not? How could you not stick a needle in your arm? Seriously? Yeah. Well, I mean, we all are scared of needles, aren't we? I was. Weren't you scared of dying? When I was a little kid. It's a really good question. And actually, to answer your question, I gotta refer to something you said when you were talking about Philip Hoffman. Yes. You said, this guy has a life, right? This guy has a life that anybody would want. Right. But, what we see is that, this guy has a life that anybody would want. Right. This guy has a life that anybody would want. Right. But, what we see is that, this guy has a life that anybody would want. Right. But, what we see is that, this guy has a life that anybody would want. Right. But, what we saw is not his life. So, what we saw, children? Well, we saw pictures of kids, and here's an incredible, brilliant, talented actor, Academy Award winner, Academy, right? Right. But, we didn't see his life. We saw his performance and a portrayal of his life that's presented to us. So, you tell me, what was his life? Because I'm curious, maybe you know. You would probably have a better idea, wouldn't you? In a general way, yeah, I do. In a general way, yeah, I do. His life consisted, sadly, in part, of hiding, of fear, and of shame. Of? Look, I don't know I didn't know, Philip. I know some guys who knew him. So, I'm not here to tell you what he was afraid of. I don't know what happened to him. I don't know if he was made an addict or born an addict. But, he was a heroin addict. And, until four days ago, were you aware of that? We knew that I had heard he'd gone into rehab. I didn't know the extent of what was going on with him. Right. So, what everybody knows about Philip Seymour Hoffman is talented, brilliant, loving children, right? Yes. Success. Yes. We didn't know, right? We didn't know. And, that's the thing about addiction in general, heroin addiction in particular, is, that, you know, you're not going to be able to get out of it. You're not going to be able to get out of it. You're not going to be able to get out of it. You're not going to be able to get out of it. You're not going to be able to get out of it. And, that's the hiding. You didn't know, and I didn't know, that he was sitting in the village, shooting dope in his arm. Someone knew. Yeah, the guys who were dealing dope knew. Probably some people close to him knew. Sure. His friends. Right. How about people he's going to meetings with, if he were going to meetings? If he was going to meetings, then, if he was being honest and not hiding it from those people, then they knew it too. Well, he's reportedly told someone, recently, that, who said, hey, you look familiar, and this was at Sundance. And, he said, oh, are you, whoever he goes, I'm a heroin addict. That's what he said. I guess that's different than saying, I'm shooting heroin right now. Right, I'm a heroin addict too, and I haven't put a needle in my neck for a number of years. Okay, let's stop right there. You didn't say arm, you said neck. Neck, arm, yeah. You stuck a needle in your neck? When the arms give way, you find veins wherever you can. Some people shoot dope into the large vein in the penis. If they're lucky and blessed enough to have a large vein in their penis. Or if they're lucky. I would say mine's not quite as, I'd be tapping hard to find it. Magnifying glass and tweezers, you can get it anywhere. You can find it anywhere. When you heard about Phillips passing, what were your first thoughts as a recovering heroin addict? Thoughts, I, so, first experience was sadness, that I wouldn't get to see him anymore. He wouldn't gift me anymore with those performances. As a recovered addict, as somebody who's been freed, my thoughts were, here's somebody who returned to slavery, not on the strength of a 12 years of slave story, but on the strength of a chronic progressive and fatal illness whose ends are always the same, jails, institutions. And death. And sadly for Mr. Hoffman, his was death. How long have you been sober from heroin? I stopped shooting dope for real in 99. I had a little relapse in 08. So whatever that makes me off of dope, four years, five years. That's not a long time ago. Pardon me? Four or five years ago is not a lot of time. It's an interesting question. If you walk down to 7th Street and talk to the guys who are pregnant, who are currently strung out or currently kicking or currently trying desperately to get into a detox for which there's no state or county money, five years seems like forever. Did that feel bad when I said that? Cause I wasn't trying to minimize it. No, it just is what it is. In the same way that we perceive Philip Seymour Hoffman as an actor, I loved him in Truman, I loved him in everything. And now I perceive him as a grown man lying on the floor in a bathroom in the village, in boxers with a needle in his arm. That'll never change. And what's your point in that? My point is that I see him now differently than I've ever seen him. I'll always carry with me the knowledge of his brilliant performances. I now add to that the knowledge of the depth of his despair. There's a deeper level there. And when you talk about five years isn't a long time or 14 years isn't a long time, or whatever, that's really a question of perspective. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I got a little more hair than you. Yeah? Yeah. Is that about perspective? It's about perspective. Well, and I know that a big slogan in recovery is one day at a time. So whether one has five years or 50 years, it's still one day at a time. It is always. Now, being that you had, would you say, you had a relapse then? Oh yeah. That qualifies as a relapse. If you don't shoot heroin and then you shoot heroin, that qualifies. Okay. So, you know, what happened? How long were you sober between the... Oh, I had just around nine years, just breathing around the corner of nine years. From shooting heroin? Right. Did you think you had it licked? I did think I had it licked. And sad to say, as an addiction treatment professional, as someone who had for a number of years been freed of, of possession and compulsion, it's a very dangerous place to be. It's a very arrogant place for me to find myself. So what happened that led you to the relapse? Um, wow. That's a great question. I'd love to get into the specifics of it, but I don't want to disperch, to besmirch an ex's name. So what I'll say is there was a traumatizing event in my life. Okay. So you had an event in a relationship of some sort. Oh yeah. That spun you out. It spun me out. Okay. Yeah. And it's funny. I don't know how addiction works. And I don't know what happened with Philip Seymour Hoffman, but I know in my case, the traumatizing event happened. And then it wasn't for another five or six months that I relapsed. I was still running around, doing my job, making money, being a daddy to my son, you know, doing what I needed to do. The disease they say is cunning, baffling, and powerful. If you want to attribute human attributes to a disease, we call it cunning, baffling, and powerful. So you are a professional sobriety person. Right. You know, you had a number of years. Was it nine, did you say? I'm sorry, I keep getting a block. And how many you had? It was just nine. Okay. Just before nine years. So then you end up in a relationship and that seemed to be the, what launched you into a relapse. It's interesting. It's a good way to phrase the question because that's the pashat. That's how it seems at the top level. The truth is, I could have lived through anything had I been living the right way and I knew how to live the right way. Had I been doing my regular meetings, going to some therapy, been involved in a relationship with God, which I knew how to do and had done. Any traumatizing event is something you can stay sober through, but I'd gotten so busy with my fancy little life that I was letting pieces of the program go. It may be the case that that's what happened with Mr. Hoffman. It may be something different. I don't know. Yeah. It's an interesting parallel. I mean, you know, the sense that you had some time from this addiction and then here, and then next thing you know, you're looking for a vein. Is that right? Yes, exactly right. That's right. How many times would you say you shot up in your life? I can't count that high. Would you say over 10,000? Yes. Really? Yeah. How old were you when you started? Young. I don't remember. 10? No, no, no, no, no. I wasn't 10. I was at least 11. Were you bar mitzvahed? Was it after your bar mitzvah? It was definitely, I was a bar mitzvah buche and I remember my parsha and all that stuff. It was later in life. I was well into my late teens, 20 years old maybe. Okay. Wasn't there something in you that said, if I put this needle in my arm, I could die? Yes, that was fine. Because you were unhappy with life? Great question. Yes, unhappy with life. And again, unhappy with life is a real simple way to describe it. I know, I know. I understand. And I get that we have a few minutes to talk. So yes, unhappy, sad, depressed, traumatized, you name it. Were you abused as a child? I was in fact. Sexually? Yes, that's right. Physically, emotionally? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, if you're sexually abused, then you would be physically and you'd be emotionally. I think they would all bundle into one. Agreed. So you had no, did you have any therapy as a child? No, no. This was back in the day, you know what I mean? You didn't talk about anything. Nobody talked to you about anything. Okay. So you're walking around as a young man. So you're walking around carrying that stuff and whatever I could find, weed, booze, it didn't matter. Is this San Francisco? Yes, San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Cruz. Where you were raised? Right. Okay. So one day I'm in Haight Street in San Francisco and I remember like it was yesterday, 150 Haight Street, apartment 507. Really? I was facing north. It was about 4.30 in the afternoon. I've been trying to get some heroin. What day of the week was that? That's a fine question. I have no idea. We'll have to look later. We'll have to. After the show. Definitely, definitely. So with my buddy and we both grew up reading Jim Carroll and William Burroughs and we, you know what I mean? We listened to Coltrane and Davis and all the junkie jazz musicians. We had a very romantic image about what heroin was. Were you a musician? I was. Yeah, bass player. Okay. So we finally figured out this is how we're gonna get a little dope and we got a little dope. And I remember staring out the window, watching the fog come in. I don't remember it was 4.15, something in the afternoon. While looking north at Cathedral Hill, here comes the fog. Now I feel the dope. And I knew immediately I will go to jail for this. I will suck dicks for this. I will take beatings for this. I will be homeless for this. That's fine. I knew it. I knew it like that. And were you right? Yes, yes, yes and yes. Okay. Question is, were there more dicks sucked than jails visited? It's funny because I wasn't quite as pretty by my mid twenties as I was when I was a teenager. You are a handsome man. I will say that. You're sweet and thank you very much, but it's not happening tonight, princess. Oh, it's still early. People are like, is this real or not? Oh, it's real. It's real. So, so you're, do you say you're 19? 19. No, no, I was in my twenties. Sorry, okay. Yeah. And let me go into that moment you're putting the needle in your arm. Who's, are you administering it yourself? Yeah, actually on that one, we- The very first. The first time we did it, we snorted it. Okay. And I mean, it sounds a little theatrical, but I really want to know the truth in this. Okay. You really take one sniff and you were that intuitive to know, to think to yourself, I am willing to suck dicks. I'm willing to go to jail. I want this and I will do whatever I get. Like you really went through a laundry list of, or are you now looking back and kind of summarizing? In that, no, in that moment, I remember having read, one of my favorite books is the basketball diaries. Not that horrid movie they made of it, but the book itself. Okay. By Jim Carroll, fascinating read. And I went through this litany of, well, these are the things Jim Carroll described in his book that he as a young man had to do as a result of being on heroin. And here's the thing, man. There are some people who can take any drug or any kind of booze or whatever, and it works for them like magic. I'm one of those who is genetically predisposed to love opiates. Some people, I call them wimps, take an opiate and feel nauseous. That's me. That's you, I know. I feel so bad. We talked about that earlier. I feel so bad. Yeah, I can't even drink a teaspoon of, take a teaspoon of codeine and I get so nauseous. A teaspoon of codeine for me is a lot. For me, it's an aperitif. I'm ready to rock after that. So it felt like I was a 1964 and a half Mustang that the engine just got turned over for the first time in 1980 something. But don't you- It felt that good. So do you think perhaps had you not read that novel, you went to found it so romantic? No. Wouldn't have mattered. The novel, growing up as a jazz bow, listening to those horn players, all the rock musicians, being a musician myself, it seemed almost like a natural progression. In fact, it seemed like it was just going to happen and the question was when. It was kind of part of the job. Yeah, but there's no benefits and no pension for that part of the job. Right. Especially now. Well, now there's Obamacare, that helps, but a little different. Little different. Yeah, what about the first time you shot up? When was that and how? Same as that. Explain that. Take us through that. Ugh, first time I shot up, I was in, I was in, I was in, I was in the I was in the I was in the I was in the I was in the I was in Big Sur. Oy, that's a story. We'll have to talk about that off radio sometime. Okay. Yeah. That was his name? No, sir. Back to the sucky tits. His name was Arnie. He was an interior designer and I was a very young man at the time. And he shot me up with some cocaine and I loved it. Is that true? Yes, that's the first. I was on Pfeiffer Ridge in Big Sur. And you met a man? Yeah, and I was living in this guy's house. Look, the bottom line is we all have very funny, circuitous stories that bring us to surrender. inches okay just so happened this guy was uh wealthy with a big beamer seven before everybody had them you know right drove me up to big sir and says we're gonna shoot some cocaine dog i said okay great you shot cocaine yeah that was the first time that was the first time i didn't know people shot cocaine oh how do you know is that called a highball or is that when you mix it with heroin a highball is something on the madman episode you might want to look at obama's recent no didn't belushi die from a ball oh sorry okay that's how i little i know okay you know i know i sound like a geek in the drug language world i may sound like a drug fetishist who knows no but you know i'm scared of drugs i understand that and you're really smart to be scared so speedball is a combination of uh heroin and cocaine injected intravenously okay got it yeah so uh this man uh injected you with cocaine right and it was brilliant loved it and then after a few more injections the cocaine was all gone and i was kind of whiny we drank our way out of it that was it and then what was the first heroin injection of like um back in san francisco once i had snorted it and figured out how to do that i could not wait to do an iv injection of heroin so i did a little bit because i wanted to be safe you weren't scared of dying i mean the truth is i was more scared of ending up in a wheelchair so i didn't want to be one of these over-the-counter people who were like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die who falls out of a window. So I just shot a little bit. And again, I had that same experience. The rush, the warmth, the absolute absence of neurosis, the absence of fear, the absence of self-obsession, concern, anything. Everything was whitewashed from me. Early 20s, this is going on. And how quickly was, how soon after the snorting was the shooting of the heroin? Within a year? No, a couple of days. Oh, this all happened within a couple of days? Oh, yeah. When was the coke shooting? A few years before that. Oh, okay. Yeah. I see. So the heroin snorting went to the heroin injection. Right, immediately. Okay. Did you share needles? Over the course of my career, I did. Did you catch anything? No, I did not. You're not HIV positive? I'm not. What about hepatitis? Got hepatitis C many years later as a result of a tattoo. But how do you know it was from a tattoo? Because I've been tested for hep C a million times over the years and always negative. You know, that's really scary too. That's another episode. So when you think back at Philip and his death, do you think ever like, not to make yourself seem too self-important, but had I just had an hour with him, I could have helped him. Or if someone like myself had an hour with him or a minute with him. I think that would be a pretty haughty, arrogant statement for me to make. And maybe if I had 10 days, couple of weeks with him, it's possible that I could have allowed him to see something he couldn't see at that time. But then I'm not the only man who might've done that. Any number of recovered addicts could have done that for that man. There are a couple of specifics about the story that I don't understand because I don't know that world. And I would love it if you could help clarify that for us, okay? I'll give it a shot. 70 baggies, they say were found, 50 unopened. Is that a lot? The answer is it depends upon the level of your habit at the time. If he's doing three to four bags of dope in every shot and that's what he needs to get well, and he's doing that three or four times a day, then that's not a lot. How many baggies did you go through in a day? So in New York, they call them papers. It's a little glassine envelope, a bindle, they call it. Okay. A bindle is the same as a glassine envelope. Okay. So it could be a folded up piece of paper and there's a little bit of heroin in there. You know what the funny thing about, and what they do in Los Angeles, they sell them balloons, those teeny tiny little balloons. What kind of, I don't know those balloons. Like animal, balloon animals? No, no. You're a funny guy. I'm serious. You're like Joe Pesci, a good fellow. I don't know, I don't know. You know what a big balloon looks like? Yeah, like a birthday balloon? Imagine a teeny tiny balloon about the size of the tip of your pinky. There are such balloons. Okay. You might've seen them. For little people. For little people. Little people birthday parties. For little children, let's say. Okay, I got it. Okay, the small little balloon. Right. So what'll happen is, a guy will spit a piece of heroin into a balloon. Why is he spitting it? Because a lot of times he'll chop it in his teeth and- The dealer you're talking about? Right. Okay. Or he'll chop it with a knife and place it in the balloon. Okay. And they wrap a little knot in the end of the balloon. Okay. And that balloon of heroin, it's what we call a bag, that goes for somewhere between 15 and $20. And that's the LA West Coast way of doing it? That's the West Coast way, homie. East Coast is in a glassine they called envelope, which is that waxy-ish transparent looking envelope. Like the post office gives stamps and are used to. Right. That would be, okay. Right, right. They call that a paper of dope. That's a paper. In the East Coast. And a bundle is a certain number of papers of dope bundled together with a rubber band. So a bundle of dope might be five papers. Anyway, look, man, it doesn't matter. The truth is the guy had a lot of heroin in his apartment and he was injecting it and he had a habit, right? So was he doing a lot of dope? Yeah, he was doing a lot of dope. When you're in your mid forties and you're addicted to opiates and you've been addicted for some time, you can no longer get by with, I'll just do a little bit. You don't even feel it. You got to pick up where you left off or even go bigger. Right, always go bigger. Always. Is that what you did in your relapse? Always, yes. Okay. Did you come close to dying? I did. I was hospitalized a number of times. EMTs picked me up. Yeah, I was blue. Yeah, it was bad. In the relapse? Yeah, and it took no time for that to start happening. No time. Did it happen more than once in the relapse? Yes, it did. Yeah. Were you trying to kill yourself? It's a good question. I don't know. I would say yes. Does that make you a better sober coach for the experience? Or would you say it makes you not a better one? Like, you know what I mean? Like, could it go both ways? I would think it would make you better because you've been on both sides. Right, yes. I'd say it makes me a better sober coach. All of my clients are people with multiple relapses. And now I get to say, yeah, me too. And I get it. And I found a way to pull my head out of my ass. And I found a way to keep it out of my ass for a little while. So I'm gonna show you how. So that's great. The other thing it did for me, because I don't care about the sober coaching career, maybe I'll end up as a writer or a fluffer or whatever it is that you do. Both. A rougher. So what it made me is it made me less arrogant. And it made me more of a real person. It made me a better dad. It made me a better friend. It made me a better human being overall. And it's sad that such a violent, pathetic way of harming yourself is what it took for me to become a better person. But I guess I had to go to hell and back and then go to hell and back. That's what it took. Yeah. I think that a lot of people will look at an addict, particularly when it comes to heroin, and say things like, why would you even start? You know, you're not stupid. You were reading all these novels, bright guy. You know that if you put a needle in your arm, you could get addicted and maybe die. So some people would say, shame on you, your fault. Why should I feel bad for you? You knew better, stupid. It's not my feeling. Right. Some people will say that. A number of the members of House of Representatives would say that. I know, but are they wrong? Yes. In fact, they're wrong most of the time. And there are some dilettante, bourgeois, bored with life types who will decide to play with heroin because now it's the thing about that very, very small subset of a subset of people. I would say the same thing. What the fuck is wrong with you? Right. But for most people to take up a drug that has the reputation heroin has, there must be something acting inside your psyche and your brain that's driving you to need release. And whatever you're doing, sex, gambling, hookers, money, whatever, isn't working. Yeah, you know, this is a great, I'm having like, I hate to be so corny with like an aha moment, but this is an aha moment for me. Not because I ascribe to what I was describing as an attitude, but because of the very nature of someone who is bright sticking a needle in their arm, knowing that they could die. That's a sign of someone who's really sick. There you go. Not someone who's just trying to get a thrill and knows better. Right. The ultimate in evidence of, wow, what a sad mental state this person is. So you hit the nail on the head and that's the real deal with most addiction is that while there is certainly a small percentage of humans who are genetically predisposed toward a particular substance or another, the vast majority of people I know from a personal experience in my recovery, going to 12 step meetings and as a professional for years and years, there is at least one co-occurring disorder in just about every addict I've ever met. It could be depression, mania, bipolar. It could be some personality disorder. It can be trauma. It can be multiple traumas. There are a number of physical conditions. Look, untreated diabetes can put you into such a foul mood as can untreated hypertension, can actually change your personality, can, you know, can actually change your personality, can actually change your personality, can actually create depression and physical pain. I always love the saying that, the idea that it's not, the addiction isn't the addiction. It's not about what it's about. It's not about wanting to get the high, stick in the needle in the arm or about getting loaded with alcohol or whatever it is. That's the symptom of something that's going on deep inside. And that's the opportunity to get curious. So when someone like Philip Seymour Hoffman or anyone goes to such lengths to numb out, it's really an opportunity, in his case, a very sad one and a late one, to really ask the questions and to get very curious as to what was going on inside. Because it wasn't that Philip Seymour Hoffman, like you said, was like, you know, he was either doing polo, playing polo or shooting heroin because he needed, he was bored. It wasn't like that. Right, it didn't seem like that. Clearly. So, and perhaps to back up where we focus, I, of course, I'm a natural human. I have some curiosity. I wonder what was driving Mr. Hoffman. I wonder what his drivers were. Was there a co-occurring disorder, whatever that was? I'm curious about it. For me, the curiosity is how do we take somebody, whether he's an actor or a street sweeper, how do we take somebody who's identified and acknowledged a problem with substance use? And then how do we foster an environment where that person, that person feels safe continuing to maintain abstinence? Because that's the key. Whatever troubled him, whatever bothered him, whatever thing or things they were, probably never stopped bothering him. But he did find a way to get release. In those periods of release- 23 years you're talking about? The sobriety? Of Philip Seymour Hoffman? Yeah. I don't know the number of years he had. Well, that's what it was, reported to be. 22, 23. The other thing that's really interesting, which I think is important to bring up, is that there's this number of, like I said, 22, 23 years of sobriety. But I think what people forget when they throw that number around is sobriety's different than not using. Oh yeah. So someone can go 23 years without shooting up heroin and be just as much an addict as when they were shooting up. They're just not shooting up. Completely. And if you don't get your co-occurring disorder- Explain that. I think you need to explain that. Okay. Because I think that's important. So here's my experience. When I finally stopped, after years of trying to stop, 99, I'm facing eight and a half years in prison. I went to a halfway- You are facing eight and a half years of prison. Right. For your drug use. For a number of things related to the drug use. We'll get back to that in a minute. Okay, go ahead. So I had an opportunity to stop and I found a pathway out. I found a way to become a healthier, more healed, healing person. And I stayed on that path for a long time. I became seduced, and perhaps Mr. Hoffman became seduced, by bright, sparkly things, whatever those were in my case, in his case, I don't know. And I began to focus less and less attention on those safe, healing, intimate places where I could be a real person. And I started to spend a little more focus every week, month, or year on the bright, sparkly things. And there is no way I could stop. And I realized that there is a tipping point. At some point in 2007 or 2000, whenever, I went over the edge. I paid not enough attention to what worked to keep me abstinent. And I paid too much attention to the added data. What was it that worked that kept you sober that you were no longer paying attention to as much? Hmm, a couple of things. Loving service. spiritual practice that I had begun a certain amount of religious practice I experimented with regular meeting attendance at some of those 12-step meetings and taking the 12 steps working the 12 steps in your daily life right and so when I was doing that he whether I was doing a bunch of meetings every week or a few meetings every week at least I was doing that the more I started to focus on external things not staying a healed loving Doug but getting another money piece of money or a car or up whatever right all that stuff doesn't have to exist to the exclusion of the healing but in my case it began to do so what about the trauma were you ever treating the trauma I'm not effectively enough and they needed to treat that and it was a lot of work but I was able to do it and I was able to do it and I was able to do it and I was able to do it and I was able to do it and I was able to do it after I started coming back that I found an effective method to treat the trauma okay and just to get hit this right on on the nose so to speak on the head the idea is there are people that are called they're called they're sober drunks in the sense of isn't I think that's the term where the idea is that they're white knuckle drunks like they're not drinking but they're they're still in the they have the persona or the let's say the spiritual challenges as someone drinking but they're just not drinking so that's why you know what I said if you can be real clear on is that your explanation then of someone can be not using but not be sober in the sense that the sparkly things maybe it's money or women or something outside is it's not I have some good language for you okay in in some of the 12-step programs they use this phrase clean and sober right and so clean means I am abstinent from substances of abuse and thank God I'm abstinent sober means not only am i abstinent but I am actively engaged in serving other people I'm actively engaged whether it's in a 12-step program or in a church mosque or synagogue or social service whatever actively engaged in healing and caring and being an intimate person an authentic person some people can maintain being clean for years just abstinent and it's enough for them and they don't really feel the need to change and God bless them I wish I was one of those guys I tried that it didn't work for me I needed the full boat you know what I mean so there's clean and there's clean and sober it sounds to me like if Hoffman had 23 years off of all mood and mind altering substances it sounds like he was doing some real work inside work to be to be a free man and it sounds to me like as if I knew him but it sounds to me like the sparkly stuff got the better of them and again that's just speculation that's what we don't know well we do know that from what's been reported that his his partner they had broken up or were in a moment of separation and because she wanted him away supposedly from the family while he was dealing with his addiction. That's all rumor and what's been reported. Certainly that would be traumatic for anyone. We don't know if that's what pushed him over the edge, contributed to it. We don't know. No, there's no, there's no no. And you know what? There's a little piece here about, and this is on the heroin piece specifically. Once you're in your mid forties, once you've been a dopamine for a long time, you may think you know how much you need. And the trick bag is you don't. You may know how much you need just to get well so that you're not feeling dope sick that morning, but you don't always know exactly how much you need in order to try to get high. And it sounds like he was doing a little more than just staying well. It sounds like he was trying to get high. We run after that. That initial imprint of the high, that what I described to you a million years ago in San Francisco on hate street, that high ran and chased after that experience of heroin for a few decades, never really finding it again. Same thing with the shooting cocaine like that. For those first imprints first, whatever year or two I was doing that great. The remainder of the next 20 years trying to recover that, trying to refine that again, couldn't do it. Isn't it important for addicts to know that it probably can't be replicated before the chase? So yes, it's important and it's theoretical because for some people it can be replicated. Some people's bodies and brain. We don't need to tell them. We can just lie. Look, we can do a Nancy Reagan thing if you want and we could ring around a posy and where's your balloons? I mean, you know. That's a reference I don't know, but I don't think. Nancy Reagan? I know Nancy Reagan, but I don't know. Nancy Reagan? I don't know. Right, just say no. Okay. I forgot that was her whole. And ring around the posies is don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about, you and me later, right? I don't know that. Vic, okay. Sorry, I've let you down. I know. Again. Again. So how big a problem is heroin really in this country? Because I did some research and health officials say that there are 666,000 Americans who were using heroin in 2012. And that was double one. And that was double one. So what was used in 2007? Now, when I heard that number, I didn't even think that was a lot. 660,000. That seemed like nothing. I haven't the faintest idea how many people are doing dope. I do know that it's a problem in every state in the country. And I do know that from where I live in Santa Monica to where we happen to be sitting right now, downtown Los Angeles, some people are dying tonight from heroin. A lot of people, I'll speak for myself. I think that's a good idea. I know me pretty well. I don't want to speak for you, all you guys listening, but I always feel like I don't really know anyone who's doing heroin. Like I always feel like, you know, those people just, I just don't, I don't hang out with them. I don't hang out with that crowd because I don't do drugs like that or really any drugs. So what do you think the likelihood is that every day I run into someone, talk to someone, or I'm in the same room with someone either who's high on heroin or is recovering from a heroin addiction? Chances are extremely high. I mean, you live, what part of town do you live in? I live near Hollywood. Live near Hollywood. Yeah. Okay, so Van Nuys, okay. No, no, no, I live on the other side. Okay, got it. Near West Hollywood-ish, that kind of part of town. Understood. Hollywood, West Hollywood, there. I cannot guarantee it, and there's no way you can quantify or qualify this, but you run into people every day who are recovering from addictions of one form or another. And you may not know it, if you saw me walking down the street wearing a nice tie from Savile Row, you might not think, oh, that guy was shooting heroin in his neck a few years ago. Right. Right, because we clean up pretty good, right? You look great. Right, so do you. But you haven't done it in a long time either. Right, it's been a few minutes, but the thing is- A few minutes. A few minutes. Might feel like it. Right. So the thing is, the goal of recovery, the real goal of recovery is not just freedom from obsession and compulsion. The goal is to integrate, to become a responsible, productive member of society. So you shouldn't know that I was a dope fiend. And these people you meet selling you coffee at Starbucks or shining your shoes or wherever, what do you care if they used to be on dope or if they're doing dope right now? Right? Why do I care? Right, does it matter? It doesn't matter. I'm just saying that I don't, I think if I knew if there was a little red light, I would probably see more what the problem, that how big the problem is. The problem is so largely and so well hidden. Because you don't know if the Starbucks girl is, had shot some heroin before her shift. I mean, not that it matters either way, as long as she can make the coffee. I mean, not to be rude, I'm just saying like, I don't have a, I don't discriminate. I'm not like, it's more like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not like, tonight. I smelled some weed. I don't know if somebody was smoking weed or had a big sack of weed. Jeremy. So, if you walk in some place, because you've smoked a little weed maybe, or smelled somebody who smoked some weed. That might have been the president. I don't know. But you might know what weed smells like. And you might smell some weed. But you don't know what heroin smells like. And it's in a little envelope or a little balloon, so you'd never know it was in the room. It's hidden. It's secret. It's like jazz, man. Jazz music. Yeah, there's notes, and that's great. But the beauty, the secret, the code, is in the space between the notes. And that's where heroin lives. And the space is in between. And you don't see it right in your face. You'll see it if you walk down 5th and San Julian. Here in downtown LA. Right in downtown Los Angeles. Is that the sexiness of the drug in a way for the addict? You mean the hidden, cool feature? No one really knows what I'm up to. Yeah, I think that can be a part of the sexiness. Like, I got something going on that you squares don't get. For a little neurotic Jewish boy who grew up in Northern California, that can definitely be part of the puzzle. Now, you mentioned you were facing prison for 8 and a half years? Yeah. Tell me about that. So, heroin's a big felony, which makes heroin expensive. And if you don't have a bunch of money and you've pawned all your musical equipment and you can't really get a job, you're going to need to do some things in order to get your heroin. Some of us steal candy bars. Some of us steal a pallet of laptop computers from the gas company in downtown Los Angeles. Would that someone be making this? I'm just saying that things happen, and who knows what a person might get up to. How many computers are in a pallet? 44? I'm just saying. Right. So, you'd made the move down from San Francisco. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there was a bunch of dope cases like, Mr. Kane, we found you with heroin and you have to go to jail. And then there were these other things about burglaries and crimes and... So, you had multiple counts against you with a bunch of crimes. Right, right, right. And so, the city wanted or state wanted to put you in... Oh, the state. The state wanted to put you in prison for 8 and a half years. They wanted to, and they were willing to, roll the dice and say, well, you know, you don't seem like a gangster. You don't seem like a die-hard criminal. You seem like an idiot who's got a dope habit. We will give you one more, one more second, second, second, second chance. You can go to this halfway house in downtown, and maybe they could do something for you. How old were you? I was 34. That's like a man. I was kind of grown up, yeah. You're getting to be close to... I mean, you know, you're not a child. Here's the gross thing, right? I'm smart. I have some talents, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. When I was released from jail the last time, here's what I brought to the world. A pair of shorts with no boxers. A cigarette. Honestly, I had one cigarette in my bag. What was the brand? It was a Marlboro Red. But it was bought from the $2 place downtown. It was a Mexican Marlboro. A t-shirt in these 99-cent store plastic sandals that were held together with electrical tape. That's what I brought to the table. That's all you had to your name? Right. With all the brains and all the personality. You were a Grouse grad? I was not. You did go to class, right? I did, but they invited me to leave fairly quickly. Okay. Because you were partying too much? I mean, you know, I was non-compliant. They wanted you to, you know, go to class. Right. What did your t-shirt say when you met? Do you remember? Did it have a saying or anything? It didn't have a saying. It had several stains and a cigarette burn. From when you had been arrested? Um, no. It was just a dirty-ass t-shirt and I didn't have anything else to wear. You were homeless? It was really bad. Yeah, it was gross. So you were taken out of the jail and brought right to this rehab home? Yeah. Yeah, it was downtown Los Angeles on Lake Street. Right near where I used to score dope all the time. How long were you in jail? The last time it was only like two months. How many times have you been in jail? I don't remember. More than ten? Yeah, up and down the state, more than ten. More than twenty? No. What's the worst crime you've been committed to get your drugs? Oh, God. You know... That you've been convicted of. Let's say, I don't want you to incriminate yourself. So, here's the great thing about being a responsible, productive member of. You can go get your records expunged if you've been clean a long time and done everything right. Okay. All of my records have been expunged. Okay. Well, if you don't want to revisit that, it's understandable. I mean, it's kind of funny. We talked about some of the gross stuff, and the grosser the better, but most of them, you know, there's no romantic drama. They're property crimes and burglaries and stuff, and that's all that is. And you attribute it to the pain you were suffering from due to the trauma of your childhood? I attribute the crimes to being addicted to heroin and being a very antisocial person. Perhaps being a very antisocial person may be in part attributed to post-traumatic stress disorder. You come from a Jewish family? Oy, look at this snot. But Jews aren't supposed to be addicts, right? That's the stereotype. The Jewish community. That's the stereotype that the Jews would like to have you. The Chinese and the Koreans would also like to have you believe the same thing. That it's only... That this is a problem for people like George W. Bush. You know what I mean? Yeah. Now, you're a... We've talked about you being a sober coach, and I never really got into that. So, can you give us like, you know, the one minute kind of... I know what you do deserves a lot more than a minute. But just the headlines of what you're doing. So, simply, my little team and I bring treatment home. Instead of sending you again to rehab, we bring rehab to your house and your family for an extended period of time. We live with you, or live adjacent to you. We model recovery-oriented behavior. We broker recovery resources for you. And we show you, instead of teaching you in a rehab where you're surrounded by 50 or 60 other dope fiends with less than 30 days, we surround you with healing, healed people who actually show you how to be clean out in the world on your terms. Are you talking about the actual person you provide? Yes. That they kind of create that example of what a sober life looks like? Yes, that's right. And these are recovered addicts themselves? Every one of them. And every one of them has experienced relapse. And when I say recovered, am I misspeaking? Should it be recovering? Nope. They've recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. This is a bit controversial in the addiction world. Some would call themselves a recovering addict, while others would, and they would shun someone saying, I'm a recovered because of the idea that's not taking it one day at a time. I understand and I agree. So, it's interesting. The guys who invented Alcoholics Anonymous, they called themselves recovered alcoholics, and the guy who invented Narcotics Anonymous called himself a recovered addict. So, I don't have any problems saying I'm a recovered addict. Right. You know what I mean? And recovered addicts can still become unrecovered. Absolutely. Look, you cover your head with a hat. If you take off the hat, your head is uncovered. Right. I know, and that's the truth. I know it sounds like a silly joke, but you're right. I mean, by the use of, we're talking semantics and that kind of thing. We're almost out of time. There's something that we haven't covered in this story about Philip that you think is important for us to discuss? That's a fine question. There are probably several things. The one that jumps to mind is this. It's heartbreaking that the notion of addiction as anything other than a disease still exists in our culture. The reason for the hiding and the reason for the shame is a puritanical vision of what it means to be an addict or an alcoholic. People on the outside look at an addict and assume he is no only a pleasure seeker because that's all they understand. Anybody who knows addicts, who comprehends what's happening inside the mind, heart and soul of an addict understands you're dealing with a tortured soul who needs help. Relapse oughtn't be a shame place. Relapse ought to be a sign that there's a reservation in somebody's recovery program. If you're diabetic and your blood sugar goes high, you don't try to hide it from everybody. You go get it treated so that it comes down. That's how this needs to be treated. And it was not and it still is not. Wow. That was really a great point you made. I'm glad. Yeah. Anything else you'd like to share? You know what? If you're an addict, if you're listening to this show, if you're struggling, this is not a sales pitch. There are all kinds of people, all kinds of places all over the world who are only waiting to help. Some are going to charge you money. Some are going to do it for fun and for free. Don't stop looking. Do you do counseling on the side? When I say on the side, I know you're mostly spending a sober coaching thing where you might go to a doctor. You might actually literally live with someone or have your coworkers. I do some non-traditional therapy work. So if people wanted to learn more about you, they would go to SoberChampions.com. Is that correct? SoberChampion.com. Okay, great. And there's a way to email you there and get a hold of you. Okay. Well, first of all, I want to thank all of you for listening and I hope that this helped in some way. It definitely helped me. I mean, your insights are just incredible. And it's just been such a great conversation. I've learned so much where I just it's an odd thing I told you off mic prior to the show. I came into the studio very uncomfortable and a little bit angry and agitated, irritable after doing all this research on Philip Seymour Hoffman's death. And I'm leaving our conversation now lighter with more hope. Yeah. There's hope inside the room right now. Yeah. And that's, I guess that's what happens in some of these meetings, correct? Well, sure. It happens in churches, mosques and synagogues. It happens in therapy. It happens in meetings. It happens wherever human beings disclose to one another and become intimate with one another. Then there can be hope. And I want to thank you for your openness, sharing your story. I mean, it really was special. Thank you. I'm so grateful that we've had a chance to meet and I look forward to keeping in touch. Thank you. Well, thank you all again for listening. And again, this has been Vic Cohen's It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair quest. Quest quest question. How everything everything everything everything everything Thank you.