Jackie Johnson on building No Subject and her entrepreneurial journey

Hello and welcome to the life of an entrepreneur. I'm Jan McCarthy with Entrepreneurial Voice and we are broadcasting live from skidrowstudios.com, real radio on the internet. And we're here every Tuesday at 11 a.m. Pacific Standard Time or something like that. And we're here to talk about what it's like to be an entrepreneur, share some of the business tips that some of our entrepreneurs that come through these doors have to share with us and just kind of talk about their life in general. And I'd like to let our listeners know that if you want to call in and talk to myself or our guest, the number is 1-800-893-9597. And today I'm really, really, really excited. I am interviewing Jackie Johnson and she's with No Subject and she is just an entrepreneur extraordinaire. So welcome, Jackie. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah, no. Rule number one, don't be late. You know what? It's okay. And we're in Los Angeles. So, you know, you're either 30 minutes early or you're 30 minutes late. Almost always. Yeah. And neither way you're on time, right? Exactly. You know, so that's just the way it is. And it's just great to have you here. So what I really like to do is just kind of start out with, let's kind of go on your journey with you and how you got started. So like talking about when you were a little girl, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? Yeah, no. So I grew up in Florida, in a suburb in Florida. And I, you know, my parents always joke that you were a little girl. And I was like, I'm not a little girl. I'm a little girl. I was always, I'm going to live in the big city. I'm going to live in the city. I can't wait to, you know, be in the big city and have like a career. What city in Florida? Because I grew up in Florida and Georgia too. I don't think we knew that, did we? West Palm Beach, South Florida. Okay. Nice. So yeah, so I, you know, I always had this vision in my head that I would be living in New York City, you know. And, you know, I watched a lot of movies growing up and I was like, I'm going to be a magazine editor. Well, you know, most people from New York City come to Florida. Most people from Florida don't go to New York City. Exactly. So you knew you wanted to go there, magazine editor. Yeah, I was going to be a reverse snowbird, essentially. The glamorous life. Yeah, exactly. So I was very focused on being a magazine editor, knowing very little about that whole industry. And I went to school at NYU and, you know, the beauty of a school like NYU is that you can specialize, you know, in terms of a major. I was a magazine production major. So, you know, it was very, very limiting at the same time. I was very focused and I was kind of I was kind of I was kind of I was kind of I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind I was kind Nest, did the whole circuit, and learned a lot about the industry that I didn't love. And, you know, I learned a lot about advertising and how that plays into editorial. And, you know, I always thought it was very interesting, the balance of like how this all works and, you know, what they're putting out. I always just assumed that editors went out and went shopping and, you know, found cool stuff and then told the world about it. But little did I know, it's all sort of run by this bigger system of advertising and all of that. So I also was offered a job at Condé Nast right out of school, which is a, you know, a huge honor and thousands of thousands of girls want those editor or editorial assistant jobs. I was a little disheartened by the salary. You know, living in New York City and going to NYU and having, you know, student loans and needing to eat and things like that. You know, it just... It just kind of hit me. I was like, I don't think I can... I can't take this job. And, you know, my career is definitely one of like happenstance and opportunity and luck, I think, in a lot of ways. Because I... One of my professors worked at Time Inc. at the time, and I had talked to him about that. I turned down the job. And he had said that there was this opportunity at Time Inc. And he's like, it's a six-month sort of paid internship slash apprenticeship or whatever in the interactive. And I was like, well, I don't know anything about the internet. So I took it. I was like, you know, this could be fun. And it was literally a six-month crash course in a really interesting field where Time Inc. was trying to figure out how to use the internet. So they basically pulled in me, a couple people in suits, you know, and everyone kind of got in a room and we're like, how do we operate on the internet in the world of media? So it was a really good introduction into the career I ended up having. It was sort of transitional from being on the media side to being on the marketing side. And shortly after I took a job off a Craigslist ad. It was a Craigslist ad that said, it was one sentence and it said, seeking female who loves fashion and is interested in internet marketing. Like the creepiest Craigslist ad ever. And I was like, whatever, you know, like at that point, you're like just like mass sending out your resume. Those at home do not try this, right? Yeah, do not try this. I don't know where you'll end up. But I ended up actually at a really interesting spot. I was the third employee at a marketing agency called, you know, the company called Attention. And it was these two guys and they had this vision, you know, they were, you know, at the time, this is 2006 or seven. And, you know, no one was, no one, I mean, social media didn't exist at the word at the time. And, you know, they were like, we're guerrilla marketing, we're word of mouth marketing, which I was really interested in. And they're like, and we have this client, Bluefly. And we're two dudes. And, you know, as much as we know a lot about marketing and PR, we don't know a lot about like the female psyche and like how shopping online sort of works. And I was like, well, good. So I was like, well, I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to I do. So I kind of got thrown into this whirlwind of social media marketing, you know, quote unquote, before there was social media marketing. And we did a lot of fun campaigns on Facebook and with bloggers on forums back then, you know, and we got to work a lot with like really cool brands like MAC Cosmetics, pretty much all of the Estee Lauder brands. And it was a crash course. And I kind of was able to create this like niche within that industry of being one of the first people to be kind of doing that, particularly in the fashion and beauty space. And, you know, kind of from there, you know, jumped, I got poached by different agencies. I had graduated school early. I'm not really sure why in retrospect, I was so excited to work. I mean, which now I'm like, I should have taken that, should have gone to Europe, should have gone to Europe for that year. And I kind of just dove in and went from agency to agency, eventually went in-house. I'm an interactive corporation, which was one of my former clients. And if anyone doesn't know, is a Barry Dillard's company. It's a large corporation that owns a bunch of sort of dot coms like match.com, citysearch.com, pronto.com, et cetera. And, you know, was on a really fast and furious trajectory of success, which was amazing. You know, I was 23, living in New York, like having this, you know, dream career. And then the recession hit. So I, you know, was pulled into my boss, who is the CEO of Pronto, who's also a mentor of mine. He's amazing and really wonderful to work with and is also an entrepreneur, entrepreneur now is starting his own thing. But he basically was like, so we can lay you off, or you can have the same exact job you have here, but in LA at CitySearch. So I mean, kind of an intense choice. I, was not really familiar with LA. I'd been out there maybe once before. And I was like, I don't know, not LA. And he basically convinced me, you know, he's like, he had, I think he had gone to school out here undergrad. And he's like, no, there's so much more you can do out there. You know, you should check it out. And, you know, it was sort of like one of those perfect storms of like, my lease was up. I was like in a relationship that was ending. And I was like, I think like the universe is somehow like pushing me to LA. So I'm just gonna go. So I came out here and started at CitySearch. And, And CitySearch, that's, tell us more about what that is, because that's not fashion, right? No. So it, and it was a, so now it's something different, but at the time it was a listing of different restaurants and venues and things like that. But what they were really well known for was their editor, editorial voice. So like when you're competing against like a Yelp, for instance, which is a lot of people that you don't know talking about their experience, CitySearch was, had the editor's voice. So I saw a lot of opportunity there from, like a media standpoint where, you know, these editors could be little local celebrities. Like they could go, they could produce interesting content at all these different restaurants. They have all these relationships. We could do fun sort of like CitySearch TV style, like, you know, vignettes of different small business owners and things like that. So I had a really grand vision of what I wanted to do there. And it was not met with open, open arms or, you know, listening ears. So I was really stifled and I was really upset because I had uprooted my whole life, you know, to come here and all my relationships were in New York. And it was a very frustrating experience, but again, like a series of happenstance in a way. So I- And so many things, you know, for entrepreneurs happen that way where it's an upheaval, you get fired from a job or- Totally. Or you get really dissatisfied because if you were just totally happy, you wouldn't have gotten where you are today. Yeah. And I read somewhere, you know, a lot of people, you know, only see the success of an entrepreneur. And the one thing that I've seen is that a lot of people, you know, think that they're successful at, but what they don't see is like the 13 failures before that, you know, which is so true. And I had identified so heavily with my career that getting laid off was a blow for me, you know, after three months. And I definitely had this moment of like, I'm going to be a yoga instructor. You know, I'm going to try all these different things and like, you know, kind of felt like a failure, you know, and felt like maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, which is kind of like always- Yeah. You know, something when you're running your own thing is like, you start to realize like, no one really knows what they're doing and everyone's just kind of doing it. But there is, there are those times where you feel like a fraud and, and you really realize just how little you do know. Yeah, totally. And, you know, and I think I was probably a little overconfident at the time because I had had such successes and it was definitely like an ego blow as much as it was like a financial and life, you know, kind of situation. But it ended up being a really good thing for me, you know, because at that time, I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And so at that time, I, I'd emailed a few people I knew back in New York and kind of explained the situation. And luckily, one of the agencies I had worked for had said that they had some freelance work with Mazda. So I started doing that. And then I just started accruing clients. It just kind of started happening. And, you know, I'm working out of my studio in Koreatown. And, you know, just accruing clients, accruing clients. And I was reading the four-hour work week at the time. And I really, really related to it, particularly certain parts of my life. Where I felt like I had always been punished in my previous jobs for being super efficient because I just got stuff done. Like, that's just the way I operate. It's super fast and furious, my pace. And I'd be like, you know, 1 p.m. and I'd be like, okay, I'm done with that. What's next? And, you know, people would get really frustrated with me because they'd be like, well, did you spend enough time on that? Did you do that? And I was always just trying to move the conversation forward, like move it forward. How can we improve upon this? And corporate culture does not really really, you know, bode well for that kind of person. And so that's the book, you know, if you've read it, it's sort of about that. It's about a lot of other things. But, you know, and he was saying, like, if you feel like you can do that and you can be that efficient, like, why not just do it yourself? You know, why not have a four-hour work week? Or like, in my case, have like a 400-hour work week and just cram as much stuff into it as you can. So you thought you were going to four-hour work week and now you do 400 hours. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it never, it never stops. I always, I always joke to say, like, my work never ends. It just changes venues. Like, it goes from my house to the office to wherever I happen to be. You know, which I think is an interesting plight of like our generation of, you know, work is our life, life is our work. Everything's sort of blurred lines. And, you know, running a business, it's funny because hiring is really interesting. Because a lot of people that, the majority of people that work for me were, like, we joke, but we're fangirls of their subject before they started working for us. And they'd, always been following the company. And, and a lot, some are interns that turned into full-time employees. And some are just people that, like, had always kept in touch and, like, you know, come to all of our events and things like that. And I, and, you know, those are the best employees for us because they kind of live and breathe it. You know, they embody what the company's all about, which is awesome. But yeah, so long, long story long, I started taking on more and more clients. I ended up getting a space downtown, which at first I was like, I can't afford office space. And then you realize you live in Los Angeles, not in New York. And I was like, I can't afford office space. And, and particularly at the time now, downtown's like the coolest place to be, but at the time it wasn't. And we had this beautiful space for extremely low rent and it sort of just took off from there. And, you know, I just kind of built this identity of no subject, not really knowing what it was going to be. I didn't, you know, set out for it to be a marketing agency or an events agency. So I was just going to say, let's talk about what no subject is. So all of, all of these different roads led you to, to say, okay, I'm going to go out on my own because you had been accruing clients and, and it felt like, okay, now's the time. Did, when you started accruing, did you already have your name, no subject, or as you started getting clients, you said, oh my gosh, I need to have a company with a name. Totally. So I had, it's a kind of a combination of things, but I had a Google doc of business names I've always like wanted or like URLs I owned. And I, when we moved into the space downtown, you know, it was this blank canvas. It was beautiful and it was open. And I, in my head at the time, I was like, we should brand the space. So we branded the space, no subject. So I, you know, we had a couple of freelancers in there working as well. And as well as like my employees at the time. And I was like, we'll brand the space. We'll do events here. Well, you know, at the time art walk was huge and a crazy thing. And I was like, we'll do gallery shows. And it was more about the space. And it really evolved from there. After we got our first sort of year long contract with our first client, project, it kind of hit me. I was like, I think, you know, I took a lot of inspiration from companies like Neverstop, which is the Ace Hotels or at the time, I don't know if they're still affiliated, but Neverstop was their creative agency. And they like, you know, had hotels and they owned hotels and they designed things. And they also were a graphic design firm and they did a little bit of marketing and they, it was like a dabbler agency. And I always kind of wanted to be that, you know, cause I never wanted to be pigeonholed into, well, we do community management. Well, we do traditional marketing. Well, we do events. I wanted to be able to do everything. And I wanted it to be with the right kind of brands. So no subject in itself from the beginning, I wanted to treat like a brand so that when people saw what we were doing in our logo, everything from our logos to our business cards to whatever, the right kind of brands would gravitate towards us. And that took a while. And now it's really incredible to see the kind of brands that like come our way. They're exactly what I'd want to be working with. They're your ideal client. They're our ideal clients. And like I said, it was not like that for the first year. The first year I was like, you know, you'll sell anything, anything, like anything you want to sell, like perfect. And, you know, I really set out to make it a brand that would, you know, breed like-minded brands to come, come to the table. And, you know, even in the past, like six months, the clients we've been working with are just so incredible. And, you know, they're brands I've always like dreamed of working with. And I started the company, I had a list of brands I wanted to work with. And two of them, one was Levi's and one was Baxter of California. And they've both been clients, which is incredible. Tashin's on the list too. I'm hoping it'll happen one day. Right, if you're listening, right? Let me just say, if anybody wants to call in and talk to Jackie, the number's 1-800-893-9562. We'd love to hear from you. I'm so fascinated with just a couple of things you said. First of all, I keep going back to your name, but I mean, how do you come up with a name like no subject? That's just so cool. I mean, you have such forward thinking and really obviously outside of the box and very creative. And I just led a list of 10 things about creative people and you certainly fit the bill. And I don't remember what any of them are, except that I bet you never colored inside the lines and you're outside the box. And I love it. I mean, it's such a cool name that everybody, what is it? And so... So how did that, first question, how did that thought process even happen? Yeah. So when I initially thought of this space, I was thinking blank canvas, we don't want to like overly brand it in one direction or another. And so I always was thinking like, what's something that like is everything and nothing at the same time? And I, for whatever reason, had been sent an email with like the no subject subject, right? Oh, cool. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then, you know, it hit me like, it's funny because like you can't send blank emails, but you just can send them with no subject. And it's like, it could be anything you don't really know. So I never wanted to be like pigeonholed in that way of having an agency that was, you know, whatever, you know, like there's so many agency names that are interesting, like mother and whatever. And like, you know, the significance of no subject was so specific to our, you know, time and place, but has really translated over the years into, what we, what we do. And, and yeah, it's, it's, it's been, you know, interesting. And I always look back to those, like our first batch of logos and it's like so embarrassing and awful, but like hilarious at the same time, you know, because I mean, like you said, like I, so I do all, pretty much all the graphic design for no subject and I'm, I'm self-taught. And it's funny, my whole life, I feel like I'd been like pushing up against this wall. Like when I was in, in high school, my style of writing had like, you know, for lack of a better term, always been bloggy, conversational, like really sort of short and quippy and whatever. And obviously when you're writing like an English paper, you know, it doesn't, it's not what they're looking for. Like transitional words, you know, whatever. And I was like, never, and I thought I was such a good writer and always like, you know, B minus, whatever, too conversational, you know? And I look back now and it was like, when I had been in college, I was like, I'm not going to be like, you know, Gawker came in to speak, speak with us. And, you know, they're talking about like headlines quick. We're a headline nation. Like, this is what you need to get good at is just writing really short, quippy things. And I'm like, meanwhile, for the past four years, I've been taught to write these like loquacious, like flowing papers. And now it's like, no one is ever going to read. And now it's all about like the quippy headline sort of society. And same with graphic design. You know, I like never thought I would, um, never, I would love to be a graphic designer. I loved it, but I never pursued it like professionally in terms of like getting an education on it. And, um, I always thought I had a really good vision of stuff. I had a very specific eye, um, whether it was good or not, I didn't really know. Um, and so when I started some notes on napkins, which is my fashion blog, um, it really became like this, um, inspiration board of all these different things. And that was really the platform I used to practice my graphic design. Um, and, you know, it just sort of kept like evolving and evolving. And then finally clients would be like, we just want our brand to look like no subject. And for me, that was like the biggest compliment ever because little do they know, like I, I do all that, but I just like, it's just what I like. That's kind of what I focus on. And to have someone be like, I want what you like, you know, it's, it's, it's a huge compliment. Yeah. Nice stamp of approval. But, um, I imagine that you were always so forward thinking and all of your friends were probably just always fascinated when in high school, like, oh my gosh, where do you come up with these? Yeah. I was just like, I think, you know, I went to private school, we all wore like uniforms and I'd always like find a way to wear, like wear some weird vintage scarf or like, you know, what I always felt like I was trying to be like pushing the limits or be outside the box. Um, which, you know, at the time is like the worst place to be in. Cause you don't feel like you kind of fit in or are getting any sort of approval. But you know, when you like look back in retrospect, you're like, oh, everything was kind of leading up into these moments. Yeah. So I liked what you said, uh, that you made a list of the brands that you wanted to work with. So does that mean you sat down and wrote a entire business plan? Absolutely not. Um, you know, it's, it's funny because I, um, I'm definitely creative, like left brain, like that's just the way I think. Um, so about like the second year of the business, I really, uh, started focusing on business, um, and really getting to know, um, the ins and outs of financial models and scaling and all of that good stuff. And, um, again, like I, you know, I have some really great mentors. I have some really great mentors. I have some really great mentors that have helped me with that, but by no means was there a business plan. I mean, I, my business plan is always like taking more money than you're putting out, you know, it's like, that's how you lose weight. Right. It's like all the same thing. Like it's applied to every like faction of my life. Um, but you know, it's been, um, it's been an interesting, like money for me when I first started the company, I was like, whatever, you know, I'll make it. That's cool. Um, and now, you know, particularly once you start having employees, it becomes a whole other ball game. Um, you know, you have to, I'm very specific with the clients we take on now. Um, and I'm very specific about specific about our pricing, whereas like before, you know, I, you know, it was like, we'll take anything, you know, we just want to like work with cool, cool brands. And there are some strategic moves. I do recommend aligning yourselves with certain brands who say won't pay you a lot, but have a lot of cloud and can build the cloud that you're looking to build. Um, which was something we were very strategic about at the very beginning because we took on some clients that were just sort of these amazing names and, and didn't really charge that much money, but for us built the kind of roster that would bring on the clients who would eventually pay us like a, you know, a fair amount of money. Sure. Um, but yeah, I, I, I sat down and I just wrote a list of everyone I'd want to work with. Um, I rewrite our service line stack every six months cause it's like always iterating, you know, that's the thing about what we do is like, it's always changing. You know, influencer marketing is like a, you know, a new word essentially. Like no one really thought about that, um, in terms of being a full service line. So, you know, um, that's something that, you know, now it's like built, it's like part of the DNA of our company. So you definitely, even though, and, and I'd like to point this out because there, there are, and I've said this before, there are a lot of people who said, well, if I'd ever sat down and written a business plan, I would have never started my business. And yet you did have a vision. You had a vision. You had a vision. You had a vision. You had a vision. You had a vision. You had a vision. You had a really big vision and you knew that there was so much more out there that you could do. And, and, um, and also like making the list of who you wanted to work with. And you were very clear about who you were and what you wanted your brand to look like. And, and I think that's, that's important to know. So it wasn't just sit back and wait for things to happen for you. You definitely, I mean, just, just talking with you, you, you take action. You're, I'm going to get it done. You're going to get it done. You're going to get it done. You're going to get it done. And being able to, um, you know, look, look forward as far as, you know, things that are, um, that you want to bring into your company and bring into your, to your life. Um, and so, and I love that you went through and said, okay, right now this is a real business. So I, one of my questions kind of is like, when did you own it? And, and kind of, where did you get your confidence? But, um, you know, you definitely sat down and, and had some strategies too. So when did you own it? When? Um, I don't even know if I'm still owning it. I mean, it's funny cause I started it when I was 24. Um, and now it's almost been five years. And I think like maybe in the last couple of years, um, I think actually, you know, I, I think when, um, we had an offer to be bought, I think that's when I started being like, this is people, this is real. And people see us as like something of value beyond. Cause like, um, I always think that, but like you kind of need someone to pat you on the back every now and then to make sure that you know what you're doing is worthwhile. Um, and I think for us, that was, um, that was a huge step and it definitely made me take it a bit more seriously. Um, and I think also just signing bigger clients. Um, you know, I, I am the new business department. I am the HR department. I am the finance department. I am everything in a lot of ways. So, you know, you go into a meeting and, um, you just, you know, pour your heart out and you're like, you walk out of the meeting and you're like, I don't know, I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm not going to sign this. I'm like, I don't know. And then you get the phone call that like, yeah, we want to sign you. And, um, it's, it's really exciting to go back and tell the whole team, like, guys, we're working with like Urban Decay who we just signed, which is, I've always been a fan of their stuff. So, you know, it's really, everything just sort of feels like worthwhile, you know, but I do, um, one of the pieces of advice I think that I would have given myself, you know, two years ago is to stop and kind of take it all in. Um, when you're starting the company particularly, and you're like, you have time for happy hour at five and you're like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And then you're like, you know, just kind of kicking it off and in the fun, creative phase, like take advantage of that time. It's, it's kind of the best time of, you know, best and worst time of your business. Cause you're not sure what's going to happen, but, um, you know, now it's like a fully operating functioning machine and we're just nonstop. And I look back at those times and kind of like, you know, smile. Um, we had a call waiting. I'm not sure if we still have a call or not. Um, oh, okay. Well, welcome. Hi. Who is this? Hi, how are you? Welcome. Um, I know I feel like I'm interrupting, but I've been listening. Um, and, uh, Jacqueline mentioned mentors and I wanted to ask you a question about the importance of mentors when you're building up a business. Um, so yeah, I don't know if that's enough of a question, but absolutely. Totally. Um, mentorship is, is huge. And I think the biggest blockade to mentorship is asking for someone to be your mentor. You know, I think, um, it kind of happens naturally for people. Um, but you know, I think I've had about two or three people who have come into my life in various ways. And like I was saying, um, one of my previous bosses, um, and it is really important because being your own business owner, whether you're freelance or have a business or you're independent or whatever, um, you kind of go crazy because you're the only decision maker. Right. And you kind of don't, sometimes you get stuck and you don't know what the right answer is. And it's not that that person might have the right answer, but they have experience that can guide sort of where you are with, with what you're doing. And, um, you know, I think mentorship is one of those things that kind of gets like a, like it kind of feels like stodgy and like, oh, mentorship, it's like part of the job process. And it doesn't need to be that way. I think, um, there's this site called labo league.com, which I don't know if you're familiar. It's a, um, they're a client of a former client of ours, and they are basically, um, a site for Gen Y women, um, building careers and they have a mentorship program and it's so easy and, and you can literally just, it's like all available online. They have office hours where you can talk to different successful women in different, you know, career paths. Um, and I always, I thought that was just a great way to sort of take the mentorship model and like bring it, bring it to the masses. Um, but you know what? I think like, um, I get a lot of emails from young girls, um, from all over that, you know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, it's really, it's just amazing. You know, they've been like following my career, whether it's my blog or no subject or whatever. And, um, you know, they're always like, how did you get there? You know, tell me everything. And, um, I answer every single one of those emails and I've had coffee with some of them. And like, you know, I think it's like, don't be scared to go after a, not like I'm a big fish, but go after a bigger fish and send an email and follow up and, and really like find the person that you really respect and whose career you want to emulate and like reach out. Don't be scared of that. You know, I think that's kind of where I would sit on mentorship. I think it's a great, great resource. Yeah. Great. That's really, really good information. Thank you so much. And thank you, Joe, for calling in. Thank you guys. Bye. Um, I love that you brought that up and yeah, you can't, I have a lot of people as I'm sure you do. Hey, will you just be my mentor or will you, will you promote me or will you do whatever? And, and there's no relationship there. And that, that really is how it comes, comes, develops is having a relationship. And that doesn't mean that people shouldn't reach out and ask someone to, you know, share your story. And that's why I love doing this radio show so that we can share what your life is like and how you, how you took that leap, how you got that confidence to, to be where you are. Um, but I love that website that you shared too. So, um, that's wonderful. Wonderful. Because a lot of times colleges will have that, but not everybody has that opportunity or feels that comfortable. So to go and talk to people that have already started that, how did you get your confidence? You even said you may, may have been a little overly confident. And that's one thing that I see with entrepreneurs. A lot of times they're, they're afraid, especially when they don't have the knowledge. So admittedly, you, you had to go and, and kind of learn about all that financial piece or, or whatever. And at being your, your own, um, business person, your own, having your own business. So where did you get that confidence? Did you grow up with that or? Um, I, I don't know if I, I think I've always been a little, I mean, from the exterior, at least like fearless in a way. I've always moved to cities where I don't know anyone and try and make friends that way. And I've always taken a lot of risks in that way. And not to say that I've always like gone and been like, yeah, I'm going to do this. Like I definitely have nights where I'm like, what am I doing with my life? But, um, you know, I think, I think you have to be your number one fan in the world. In a way, because, um, it was funny. Cause one of my, one of my guy friends who just, he started his own company, uh, recently and it's a totally different, it's like a bar, but, um, you know, he was getting all these phone calls on Saturday and, you know, and he, and he was saying like, Oh God, I just have to handle all this stuff. And, you know, and it's like, I mean, I'm just doing so much and like, you know, and, and it's going so well, but it's just like, and I was like, I'm just going to break this to you, but no one's going to tell you you're doing a good job. Like you have to tell yourself, you know? Because no one, you know, that's one of the things about being an entrepreneur is like, you have to believe in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, like, then you're never going to sell it to someone else. So I think that confidence is also, um, a little bit of a, uh, crutch in a way, like you kind of have to have it. And, um, you know, I'm, I just am a firm believer, particularly in this day and age that anyone can do anything, you know, like you really can be like, you know, don't feel pigeonholed. I think like, the days of like, well, I was a history major, you know, history majors run fashion labels. Like, I think it doesn't, you don't have to pigeonhole yourself. You can reinvent yourself over and over again. Um, and I always like, I have this like weird, like dream fantasy of like, like owning a bakery in a small town one day and like, you know, just- Would it be cupcakes, pies or what? Like croissants, like just croissants and amazing food and all that, because that's so not my life right now. And, um, and I have this like weird fantasy about it. Cause I'm like, I just think like one day I'd love to do something totally different and feel out of my comfort zone because once you get in this routine of like, I am a business owner and the no subject pitch, I can stay in my sleep. And I, you know, I know it's so well in and out and I know this industry so well in and out and I can see something and create like a campaign around it in two seconds. And then there, I go into a different field and I don't know anything about it. It's a really good feeling for me. It makes me, it puts me in check a little bit. Um, so I think confidence is your friend and, and, you know, when you're being an entrepreneur and like, um, at one of our create and cultivate workshops, which is an event series that we do, we had, um, a speaker, um, and she has a brand called show pony brand. And she, she had this, she was saying, you know, when you're starting your own business, you need like three people in your life. You need one person who's like, what the hell are you doing? And kind of puts you in check. You need one person who's like your cheerleader. And it's like, you can do this. And you need one person who's kind of in the same boat as you, so you can commiserate together. And I was like, that's absolutely, that's absolutely true. Like you kind of do need those three people to kind of push you to the next level. That's great advice. And, um, I hopefully we'll have time to get into talking about your event that's coming up, um, uh, at some point in 2014, which, which, um, just as soon as I saw that, that you had that, it's like, oh, I've got to know this girl because we are, I get her and she, she'll get me totally. Um, so when you were doing all this, uh, were there naysayers? Your parents say, what are you thinking about doing this on your own? Or were you already too far gone for people to say, what are you thinking? Because I mean, you really did get out in this space of, of the, the, the social media and, and grabbing those URLs and, and even thinking about the blogging and doing all that, you know, you were really such an innovator. So were there people who said, uh, I don't know if this thing's ever going to take off? Um, honestly, there wasn't in that particular sense of like, no, this thing is going to take off. There are moments of like, when I'm feeling extremely stressed out and like, we're at the crux of like a million different, like, you know, dramatic things happening or whatever, where, um, my mom will be like, wouldn't it just be easier to like, just go into a day job, you know? And I think that's more just like for my own mental health and like sanity. Um, but you know, she even knows like I'd be bored in four seconds and I would, you know, want to come out and do this myself. And, um, I own my own business, my parents own their own business. My sister owns her own business. We kind of have like a family all in different spheres. Um, my parents have no idea what I do. It's, they're always like, um, she's in PR. I'm like, no, I'm not. Um, but you know, and there was a few moments, particularly early in my career where they're like, wait, what do you, what are you doing? Um, but you know, I've, I've been really lucky to have a lot of supportive friends and family and, and, you know, there are moments when, um, you've had clients that, you know, um, are nightmares and don't think you're doing a good job. Um, cause they may not get it or, you know, or maybe you're not doing it. You know, I don't really know, but, and I've, I had moments where I was like, maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought I was. And, and you have to check yourself and understand that like there will be bumps in the road and there will be failures and there will be people who won't pay you. And there will be like dramatic moments within this. And it's, and my dad always told me, he's like, if you don't have a healthy fear every month that this might not work, then you're not owning your own business. Such good advice you've given us so far on this show. And I, I like particularly what you said about, you know, sometimes there are clients because they are, and then it, it, it might put us in that, that space of doubting ourselves, but really understanding that, um, and we've all had it, me too, you know, of, of really going back and, and understanding that that wasn't the right fit. It doesn't, doesn't, um, diminish anything that you're doing or what you've done, but that wasn't the right fit. Um, you weren't able to get them because that's not what your brand is, or they weren't able to get you because they didn't. They didn't understand your brand when they, when they came in, you know, to it. So, um, I love that you pointed that out because we all go through those moments and have that self-doubt and going, oh gosh, am I not doing it right? But really it's, that's not the right person for you. Exactly. Um, or the right company to do business with. Um, what is your greatest strength? Because I, besides risk-taking, because I, I love that and it's, and it's, and, and being adventuresome and taking on new ideas and being creative. But, aside from those, what would you, did you say, I know I have this and this is going to really help me succeed? I think, um, I think I'm really good with people. I think I can kind of walk into a room with anyone and suss out their fears, their needs, their wants pretty much right away. Um, and that's something I've learned about myself over the years. Um, you know, because every time I walk into a room, I'm like, okay, this person's going to pay me $15,000. I'm going to pay them $15,000. $3,000, whatever it might be. And that's for them, that's a lot of money. And they're really worried about like, what's that, what does that mean? Because what we do is very like, um, it isn't tangible in a way. So I think I've gotten really good at understanding how to communicate with people about this industry and their wants and needs and like understanding how to satiate those like fears or, you know, whatever it might be. So I think that, um, you know, that's something that, um, I've gotten really, that has been really helpful with me. Um, and that's something I really love to do. Um, and I think that's something that I've gotten really, really teach my employees is because, um, you know, some of my employees are older, some are, some are newer in the, in the workforce. And, you know, as soon as a client emails with a negative, what's going on with this, you know, which is bound to happen, um, you know, they immediately forward it to me and they're like, what do I do? And I've, you know, normally I'll take that, but I'll, you know, recently I've been like, okay, let's talk about this. How do we turn this into a solution? How do we make them feel better about what just happened or whatever it might be? And I think that's a really important skillset, um, for any, any avenue of a career is really just understanding every, cause work is personal. Work is emotional. Um, money is emotional people. When people spend it, they expect a lot. Um, and I think it's about putting yourselves in someone else's position and putting yourself on the client side, um, and really being able to talk to them as a human and not just, you know, a client. Well, I think the most important advice you just gave there is really how you work with your employees. Was that scary the first time you hired someone? Um, terrifying. It takes a lot of responsibility, right? Yeah, no, it's, it's, um, you know, it is, it's a lot of responsibility. It's also like, you know, and I, I need, I work on myself all the time because, um, you know, our work environment is very specific. And, um, a lot of my employees who've been with me for a while, you know, know me in and out, know exactly how I'm going to react to something, know exactly what I need when I asked for it. And, um, it's extremely fast paced. It's extremely self-motivating. You know, I am very hands-off with stuff and I, I give people a lot of responsibility and kind of from there gauge how much they can take. Um, but you know, I, I, I want to make more time to be able to like teach my employees stuff and, and learn stuff. But, um, it's kind of amazing to see some of your employees that have been with you for so long grow so, so quickly. Um, and, and they themselves understand the nature of, of the business and, and being, they're entrepreneurial in themselves. And I always want to support them having other projects and, you know, freelance writing for other publications. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and things like that, because as much as No Subject is a brand, like they themselves are a personal brand. Um, and I always want to stress that, you know, for them and, you know, because for me, it's interesting because, um, I have like these like weird internet personas kind of for like some notes on napkins, which is like my fashion side, No Subject was my career side. And, um, they all sort of like coexist in this weird, like microcosm of the internet that is all of my social networks and, and, and all the content I'm putting out. And they see like how that has helped us, you know? So notes on napkins drives new business for No Subject. Um, create and cultivate drives new business and just general new friendships and relationships. Um, and, you know, I think for them, it's important to, to kind of propel themselves into that sort of space. Well, one of the things by, by teaching your employees and doing the things that you're doing in delegating and letting them take a responsibility for certain things as an entrepreneur, a lot of times, especially we're so used to wearing all the hats and it's really hard that I would say that that's one of the things that people say is really hard. Being an entrepreneur is to let that control go because this is your baby and you don't want somebody else to raise it and screw up. Um, so to be able to let go, but really, and truly the biggest way to grow your company is to be able to hire employees and you can't do it all. You, you will burn out, you will sizzle and fry and, and everything. So being able to take that time to stop and take that time to train the employee, to help empower them, to do the job the way you want the job done. Is an extremely important piece of advice. Definitely. And, um, my, it's so funny because my first job at attention, um, the CEO of that company was, um, extremely hard on me and extremely hard on everyone. That was his like, uh, managing style, but he, it's funny. And I, I kind of hated him at the time. And then when I started my own company, um, it like hit me, I, you know, I just had a whole different perspective on our relationship because I was like, I totally get him now, you know, because for him, I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And for him, he'd be like, why are you leaving at six? You know, like there's so much that needs to be done. And I, you know, at the time I was like 20 and I was like, I'm going home. Like I'm going out with my friends and being a business owner. Now I'm like, my employees are like wrapping up at six. I'm like, why are you leaving at six? You know? And, and it's one of those things where you're like, um, I really, and I, I reached out to him after when I started my own agency and just kind of said like, you know, I really appreciate you made me such a better worker in a way because you were, you pushed me. And I think a lot of people are trying to be super nice in the work environment and not to say that I'm not nice, but I definitely push people. And I like to, I like to give feedback and, and really like make sure everyone can perform to their, um, you know, maximum potential. And, and obviously in their next job or next iteration of their career, we'll look back and say, like, I learned so much from her. Well, it's hard to imagine you not being nice, but it's very clear that you have expectations. Yeah. And I think, and, and, and there's a framework within, you want them to be able to work within that, not, not being boxed. Not being able to express themselves, but, but certain standards that, that you have for your company. And so that's important to note too. What is the toughest part of having your job, of having this business? I think, I think the toughest part for me is work-life balance. Um, it's something I really put a lot of effort into having. Um, and I think it's something that any entrepreneur needs for me, like my big outlet is working out. Like I like, going for a run or Pilates or whatever. Um, and there was about like four months when we were so busy and I didn't do it. And I was miserable. Like I, I, it literally like bled into every part of my life, you know? And I think whatever it is that you need to like escape, um, hold onto that and make time for it because, um, that will keep you sane. Um, you know, and I think, you know, for me, it's like, I love what I do. And, um, I, you know, the hardest, I think the hardest part for me is like stopping and like smelling the air. Um, and I think, you know, I think the roses and, and things like that. But, um, it's definitely been my goal. Um, for 2014, I had this whole thing about, um, I really just wanted to be uncomfortable and go on like networking trips and not know anyone and put myself in uncomfortable situations. Cause as an entrepreneur, you can get very comfortable in your routine if it's working. Um, and I think for any business, you know, to succeed, you have to keep iterating and learning and meeting and growing. Um, and you can't do that if you're like, you know, working all day and then going home, right at night and, and sort of just living and breathing and not really being out in the world and under and seeing what's going on and meeting interesting people. Um, you know, so I think, I think that's, you know, something I really try to focus on. So I was going to ask how you unwind, but I guess that would be, or do you? Um, yeah, no, um, working out and wine. Those are my two things. That sounds like, that sounds like an event. Work out and wine. I mean, maybe, maybe it can be. Maybe we'll start that. We've created something right now today. Um, I, I, uh, speaking of creation, let's just talk about your, your event that you do. You've, it's called Create Plus Cultivate. I haven't had the opportunity because I didn't know you, um, when you had the last, you've had two, right? We've had actually, God, quite a bit. We've done it twice in Palm Springs at the Ace Hotel. We did it in Los Angeles at the Standard. Um, we've done it in Portland and Brooklyn and Montauk. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm definitely coming to the next one. Yes. Yeah. So tell me how this was created. Yeah. Create Plus Cultivate and what your inspiration was behind it. Totally. So, um, basically it was one of those moments where I, um, and this was about three years ago where I kind of felt like I knew so many interesting and creative people and makers and things like that. And we all spend our days in front of computers and, you know, the DIY movement was, you know, fast and furious at the time. And it's something that I like looked at from afar, but never had time to do. So Create and Cultivate was really spawned out of getting offline, getting your hands a little dirty, you know, bringing these creative people together and doing something where they're not sitting in front of their computer. Um, and, and it has expanded, you know, over, um, the time that we've had it. But our first one that we had, um, you know, we had the Honestly WTF girls who are great bloggers come in and do a Shidori tie dye workshop. We had Kill Spencer who at the time, you know, was just kicking off his business is now like killing it and, um, has a, storefront in Silver Lake and is making amazing product. And he told his story of like, you know, he was an architect major, um, or like on, on par to be an architect. And then he just started looking at applying architecture to, um, men's accessories, like leather goods and how he sort of started his business, which was fascinating. And it's just like, you know, it's, it becomes like a summer camp with cocktails in a way, you know, and it, and everyone kind of gets a little, you know, it's from the first workshop where everyone's sort of like, you know, kind of feeling out the room. And, you know, to the end of the workshop where everyone's like hugging and like crying or whatever it might be, you know, because it really is like, I feel like connection is, is, um, a really difficult thing in, in this, um, day and age. And even I have difficulty being present sometimes because I'm so connected to my iPhone or my computer or my email or whatever it might be. And, you know, there's very few events that feel, um, authentic beyond just like, I'm going to a networking event and I'm going to hand out my business cards and I'm going to, you know, whatever it might be. And there's so many of those, right. And then they're just like nauseating, but. And whoever's listening, don't ever go to another one of those. They're terrible. Um, and what we wanted to do was create a really authentic environment where real friendships and relationships were born out of that and whether it was work or personal and, um, you know, that's really what we wanted to create. And, and, and just, we have now people who attend every single one, they fly out to every single one and, um, people from Tennessee to Texas, to wherever, you know, it's, it's really awesome. And, you know, we have, it's, it's really a privilege for us in a way because it's a good time for our staff to kind of get offline and meet some people and, you know, get creative. Like the stuff that you build, everything, everything that you get out of every workshop is either a tangible good that you've created or a lesson learned. Um, and that's something I really, really love. And, you know, we've been fortunate enough to have some really awesome brands come on board and sponsor like Warby Parker and Levi's and Bucket Feed and really interesting, brands doing cool stuff. And, um, you know, it's something, it's a pet project. So sometimes it gets like a little, you know, on the back burner, but it's something that we're really dedicated to doing. So it's, um, it's always really fun and you have to come. I'm totally there. And I, you're, you're thinking sometime this summer, right? Yeah. This summer we're looking, um, we're definitely doing it downtown too. Um, and we're just in between figuring out what venue is, is right. So we will keep you posted. Well, so you can, you can actually find out more about Create Plus Cultivate by Googling, Create Plus Cultivate. Or is it createpluscultivate.com? It's createcultivate.com. Right. There you go. So, uh, stay, stay tuned, um, for that event coming up this summer. Who inspires you? Um, okay. Who inspires me? Um, I have a lot of girlfriends, um, who've been dear friends of mine who all own their own businesses. And I don't know if that is like what that is all about. You know, if it was like, just cause we all understood each other, but, um, Elisa Leonard, who's one of my dear, dear, dear friends. And we work together on a lot of projects, um, is brilliant in the space. Um, she's always been an amazing motivator for me. And she runs, um, her own shop out of Brooklyn. Um, Jasmine Takanikos, who also, who spoke at Create and Cultivate owns her own branding agency. Janine Pesh owns her own trend forecasting agency. I'm surrounded. I feel like I'm really fortunate in that I'm surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurial women like yourself, like, like everyone, you know? And, um, I think, you know, this group of women, we're always looking out for each other, which is a really, it's like a nice feeling that someone has your back. Um, whether they bring you new business or just support your initiative. Um, my friend, Kristen Vang also has her own agency in Australia. And it's funny, like, I don't even know how it all ended up that we all, all owned our own businesses, but we definitely have a support, support system and, um, not to get too Sheryl Sandberg lean in, but, we definitely all like, you know, can relate and talk about things. We understand the pace of each other's lives. We understand the issues that we face. We talk about dating, we talk about this, you know? And it's like, we all are on the same page and I'm constantly inspired by what they're, what they're doing and how they're growing their businesses. Um, my, so, um, my friend, Kristen, who we, I started in a subject around the same time she started her agency nest in Australia. And I think she has like a hundred employees now. And I'm like, well, you killed it. Um, and you know, and I'm so, and it's just, we all, we were all, just sort of in awe of each other. And we have a shared Dropbox not to like geek out too much, where we all share our decks and proposals and stuff, just to see what we're doing and how we can do it better. Um, which is like unheard of in that industry. Everyone's competing with everyone, you know? And, and we're just not like that. You know, we, we want to constantly be being better. And, um, you know, what tools are you using? What, you know, what's your tactic with that? Um, you know, how can we all just help each other? Um, so I think I'm constantly inspired by those women. Well, I think that's, I love that you brought that up and, and yes, there is totally, it's the buzzword and everybody knows about it. Um, and I think it's more from a corporate kind of place and the, the whole lean in mentality, but yet my experience with the entrepreneurs, and maybe it's just a different breed. Um, I found, especially with the masterminds that I put on and the events that I, I create, uh, where women really are for the most part, really interested in helping you. Yeah. You know, each other, helping each other and being a support system for each other. And that really is how we move forward. And when we get in that space of kind of almost greedy, um, you know, we, with our time, with our idea, we're afraid to share it. Um, sometimes that can really hold us back tremendously. So, so excited that you brought that up as, as who inspires you and also, um, just bringing to light that there really is a lot of support out there and you, you might have to look for it a little bit, but you have to also go out with that open mind and be willing to share as well. And that's how it'll kind of come back to you. Do you have a dream collaborator? Oh man. Um, asking the hard questions. I know a dream collaborator. I, you know, I think it's like, for me, I don't know if it's a dream collaborator so much as like a dream project or something like that. Um, I, I love, I really want to get into the home design space. I love, I love, I love, I love, I love, I love, I love, I love, I love, and, and, and do some more stuff with, you know, a Jonathan Adler would be a dream. A Kelly Wurzler would be a dream and do some really cool and fun projects with them. Um, I think it's, you know, for me, um, I'm fortunate in that, like I get to work with a lot of my dream clients and, and things like that. But, um, you know, I think maybe in a next iteration of whatever it is I end up doing, there'll be more of a collaboration element. Um, but yeah, I, I, that's a tough one. Mm-hmm. I think it's a good, that was a great answer. And so, is that the next direction that you're looking at or, um? Yeah, we, um, I, I'm always looking for something new. I'm in the midst of starting a project, um, with someone else. Um, her name's Eva and we are starting, um, a little boutique blogger management agency. Um, and that's something that, um, was sort of bred out of my experience of being a blogger and my experience with the different management agencies out there. And we're being extremely curated and working with a small group of bloggers that we feel have a really, um, strong aesthetic point. Um, and so, um, I think that's a good, um, a good, um, a good, um, a good, um, point of view and are sort of like-minded in that way. And, um, that's been a really fun and exciting project and has really gotten legs in the last month and we're launching soon. And, and that's been really fun to kind of have that excitement factor. Well, that's again, yeah. You're, you're just, you're just, um, moving and shaking. We have to go here in just one second. You've got, uh, about a minute. Can you tell us your, your, the best advice, the best business lesson, even though you've given us a pleasure today? All my like little sound bites. Yeah. Um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, my best piece of advice is when things feel like they're not going to work out or things are, you know, you're kind of questioning if you want to do whatever it is that you're doing, push ahead, um, give yourself, um, more time because I think everyone's a little quick to jump, jump out of the situation. And I've definitely had my moments where I've questioned like, is this what I want to be doing? Should I shut it down? Should I do this? And, um, I think it's really about committing to the dream, you know, and really, um, really going for it because if, and like I said earlier, and just believing in that dream, um, cause if you believe in it, other people believe in it. And it's something that I've seen across the board with different entrepreneurs that I know, um, they're really passionate about it. And I think like, those are the people that will be successful. Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming today. Love it. Awesome. I got the eye of the tiger, the fire, dancing through the fire. I am the champion. And you're gonna hear me roar.