Polyamory vs monogamy discussion with lifetime poly guest Tom

Hi, good evening. How are you, dear? I am very good. How are you? Terrific, terrific. I'm Dr. Limor Blockman. This is SexandDipity and I have my wonderful Luanne with me. Yes, I am Luanne Hernandez. Thank you for joining. Yes, thank you. And tonight we have a special guest. I'm very, very happy to have him here with us and I'll let him introduce himself. Oh, thank you very much. I'm really excited to be here as well. Thank you. Yeah, I'm a lifetime poly person. So I guess that's kind of unusual. It is, it is. And fascinating. We're going to start talking about it. Just tell us who you are and whatever you want to say to begin with and then we'll take it from there. Yeah. Oh, my name is Tom and I've been poly all my life. I live here in Los Angeles. I'm a businessman. I'm a member of the community. I have three kids, two grandsons. And yeah, I mean, I have practiced a relationship style, which is basically an MFM triad style, which is two guys and a girl. I've been doing that since I was 16. And... I'm so happy to have you. Oh, thank you. So let me just start. Obviously, our topic today is relationships and different forms of relationships. And everybody knows my, everybody that knows me knows my opinion of monogamy. But I'm going to, of course, start with it and say, how do you feel about monogamy, my dear Luanne? Well, I think, I think it's a choice. And I think it's a choice that requires a lot of conversation. Yeah. And it's a very concentrated effort. Because, you know, I mean, I've been in monogamous relationships, I've been in open relationships. And the reason I think that if you're going to choose to be with one person, there's a lot of people that you, I think that we have a free flowing sexual, like energy, and they're limiting that as a very conscious effort that you have to take. But I think it can work. And I think it's, I think it does take a lot of work on both people. Yeah, it can work on both people's parts, though, to make it work, if that's the way you want to live. Yeah, if that's the way you choose to live. Okay, so Yeah, um, okay, so I believe that it doesn't really matter how romanticizing it is, you know, or how Hollywood chooses to put, you know, to position relationships to me, it's still kind of, you know, a monogamous marriage is, is kind of, you know, a reproductive contract. uterus yeah in a manner and if you look at other societies you can see that in tribal societies for instance I don't know the Herrera people of Namibia for instance women that come from families where the father has money refused to get married because honestly they don't need it and so it is it is very interesting the same goes for other locations like Tonga and other areas where arranged marriages are kind of you know are oppressive and make women feel bad and so the the engagement of elopement is very common because we don't want to do whatever the fuck they want and they don't want to be forced into a marriage just for you know financial reasons or any you know social reasons whatever it is and to me monogamy is kind of you know I don't know if I'm gonna be able to explain that to you but I think that's I just find that the whole theory you know since from starting from Darwin until today sexual selection kind of puts us in this position where what society sees is this you know overly excited male that is you know healthy warrior and then the damsel in distress that is saving and that you know so I just want to stress and say that men are not universally passionate and women are not universally coy no which is really a very strong argument for me and I think it's very remarkable to hear that because it has to do with the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality of the reality good love connection although you know alas lust is not a part of it lust is not going to be a big part of that equation of monogamous relationship mostly people tend to lose interest and then they go on these workshops of how to get it back and you need to use that toy you need to use that thing you need to cheat you need to do other things uh and i'm gonna go into um we're gonna go into um the community that you represent and i adore but i want to just say that in mammals and in general monogamy is rare i mean people assume that everybody is monogamous but in general it's just like three percent of mammals are monogamous and in human societies only 20 percent are monogamous the rest are um uh polygamous and then we're gonna go over what is polygamy what is polygamy what is polyandry and all of the rest of it and then we're gonna go over what is polygamy but i just want to say that in general in human societies it's just uncommon to be monogamous and then you know why are we so stressing over it what do you think why are people stressing first of all i also want to encourage if anybody wants to call in yeah you can call 1-800-893-9562 and we'll be glad to take your your calls at any point of course um but my opinion on why do we focus so much on monogamy is i think you're right like we have these values about our families and what that and that they should belong they should be a certain way we've talked about this a lot about the way our society views that it should be especially in america uh man a woman 2.5 kids white picket fence you know that's what we think a dog right a dog and and a very like very no very much no sex like only for procreation help manual yes exactly yeah so i think that's why monogamy has been um part of it that the church you know you get into all of this stuff religious uh-huh you get into all of that okay yeah um i want to ask both of you uh of course i know your uh opinion but i want to know from from a male perspective is monogamy worse for women or for men i mean who's suffering more from it i think monogamy is by far worse for women actually because i think women are sexually inexhaustible i mean men are exhaustible i mean i'm 45 you know they shouldn't call it coming they should call it going you know what i mean you know my wife can just get warmed up by the time i'm you know i've you know i like i like calling it going yes it is nice yes and going and going but it's amazing the variety i mean i think if you look at any system in nature any system in the universe when you close it off from outside influences it stagnates whether it's the financial system of cuba or uh you know water that's cut off from a stream and so it becomes stagnant by its very nature and i think human relationships are like that so i think it's wonderful to have fresh energy coming and have the availability of it is is an amazing invigorating thing that people deny themselves just because they don't know any alternatives and so do you honestly believe that women suffer from it much more absolutely i mean how many women fake orgasms how many women have never had an orgasm everybody yeah i'm sorry yeah i don't laugh at jokes i don't think are funny and i don't fake orgasms those are two things you know and it's very repressive fake orgasms ever oh oh once i remember but that's because he wouldn't stop i was like oh my god dear lord please just stop i would like to think i've never been on the receiving end of one of those but maybe i have chances are yes i know yeah chances are very slim to none that any man uh you know never came across a woman that fakes an orgasm but in general what has been very remarkable has been the retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention retention going to still do it. Like a lot of people are still going to be attracted to maybe engage in sexual encounters with people outside of the relationship. Exactly. Okay. Or pretend, which isn't that the enemy of intimacy? Exactly. Is to pretend. I'm going to pretend I'm only attracted to you and have only ever been attracted to you. I have only ever had eyes for you. Yeah. Exactly. And the truth is that's, you know, maybe that happens for the first like month or two. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, I know. But I mean, it doesn't last forever if it ever existed. Okay. So I think having, I think it's bad for the connection between both partners in general and it kills it because if you can't openly discuss it, then it's a problem. And you think about it, our recorded history only started with the pushing of the plow, which men did. Prior to that, calories were gathered by women. And so women had a balance of power in relationships prior to our recorded history. And I think it's a very male dominant system to have this going on. Patriarchal society. I agree that capitalism and patriarchal society is actually what pushes women into monogamy and what makes them also very suffering over it. Oh, yeah. Vulnerable. Yeah, vulnerable. And feminists are very critique of the whole idea of monogamy, actually. You know, a lot of them really feel that it's the worst thing that can happen to women. Yeah. And because... That's the worst thing? Yes. Well, it's a form of enslavement. It is a form of enslavement. It really is. It is a form of enslavement. It is a form of enslavement. And that jealousy actually kind of captures women and make them into the slaves they are to men and to society and to this whole system. And on top of it, a lot of feminists claim that being monogamous kind of puts the woman in a position where she can't have a relationship with her own peers. Like, because it kind of separates her from her own crowd and her activities and even though, you know, in modern life you can have your own life and you're, you know, a woman of her own and whatever, you still kind of, in a way, a property of your husband. And that's how I started the whole thing that the show itself that you kind of exchange your uterus, your body, your whole entity for that marriage. For that last name. For that last name on the mailbox. You lose your identity in every way. Yes. On the mailbox. On the mailbox. On the mailbox. On the mailbox. On the mailbox. And I think it's fascinating that divorce statistics the world over show that when women are economically empowered they leave. That's very correct. We discussed it. So if you give women the choice, many of them will leave. I mean, maybe half because what, 80% of divorces are filed by women. Just don't let them climax because then they'll leave. Yes. It's very true. I so agree. And, but you know, there are anthropologists that see that equation a little differently. Not necessarily that, that monogamy is good for women. But Sarah Hardy, for instance, claims that monogamy is a choice that women make because they are, and they give you the example of chimps, for instance, if you watch a cage of monkeys, you see that the females are interested, you know, it kind of varies from a few months to a few years where the males have to be replaced because the females are exhausted with them. They have no interest in fucking them anymore. You get away from me or I will. You get away from me or I will tear you. You get the fuck away from here. I will tear you. So, yeah, that's it. I'm not spreading my legs for you anymore. That kind of thing. So the males have to be replaced every now and then. And as I said, it could be from a few months to a few years, but they are replaceable. Yeah. But, and you know, they're very judgmental when it comes to... Wait, the chimps or the anthropologists? No, no, no. Well, both. But we'll get to the anthropologists. They're getting this conclusion from the chimps from watching other species or mammals. And they came to the conclusion because the female monkeys were very accepting of new partners, of new males coming in. But as soon as a new female came in, they were up for the kill. They were ready to get rid of her because there's no, they had no interest in sharing these testicles with the chimps. Right. Another one. This one's mine. Yes. Don't touch it. They were absolutely... We will slut shame you. Yes. They were just attacking her to death. Really. Like the new coming female, it was literally impossible to bring in a new female. Only new males. So, and that was the conclusion that for instance, Sarah Hardy decided on or argued that women want to have the dominance. They want to have their territory and they don't want to be part of the same group of people that they don't want to be part of. So, they don't want to be part of the same group of people that they don't want So, monogamy is in a way, that's what she argues, a feminine choice. What do you think? I mean, does that sound like it makes sense? You know, I disagree with it. I think that the reason that most people are monogamous is because they've never tried the alternative and I think many forays into the alternative such as the flower children of the 60s was very ungrounded. I mean, it was drugs. There wasn't communication. Yeah, it had to do with just losing your mind. It had to do with losing your mind and so people go, they've seen couples try it or they remember that era of our history and then they say, well, it didn't work and I'm like, well, okay, did you really try it? Did you really try to communicate? Did you really try to commit in a relationship with more than one person instead of just swinging or having an open relationship? No, they didn't and so I don't think, I really don't think almost anyone has really given this a shot. Okay, so, the idea that they relate this all, this relationship this form of relationship to something that was, you know, kind of hippie and that's what, that's the turn off. Yeah, or they see, or they've seen maybe a couple in LA in an urban area, you might have an experience of that couple that you sort of knew or maybe you were friends with them and they tried an open relationship and their relationship blew up in six months which their relationship might have blown up anyway but I think a lot of people have that association. Very likely. Yeah, that it doesn't work. I'm like, I'm like, well, how can you say that it doesn't work because to me, it's something that requires a great deal of consciousness, a great deal of intentionality, a great deal of communication. Free love is not free. We're fond of saying around my house. Oh, definitely. I want to, and I want to hear a lot more about it. I was going to say, I think also my understanding is that it requires a lot of self-awareness, a lot of communication, open communication and a lot of intimacy to be able to share those deep thoughts in general. Well, my wife, I recall, you know, maybe this second wife five years ago or so we'd had sex and she rolled over and nonchalantly said, I need a bigger dick. And I felt like, wow, I didn't, I didn't feel it. I didn't take that personally at all. I more felt. Which is very admirable. Well, you know, but for me, it was more like, wow, our intimacy has reached a level where without even thinking about it, she could say something like that to me. I was like, wow, we have really achieved a level of intimacy that almost no couple does. I was very proud of us. But you see, your reaction was secure, amazing and unbelievable and very untypical. Yeah. Of what a male, you know, how a male would react. In general, you know, men are very protective of their penises. Yeah. And anything that has to do with it. But I really, yeah, I really want to hear more about, I just want to, I just want to bring a quote before we kind of analyze the whole idea of polyamory from Anais Nin, one of my beloved writers. And she said, you know, I reserve the right to love many different people at once and to change my prints often. And I think it's one of her and she actually, you know, she probably practiced it. And I want to hear from you, Tom, because I can go on and on scientifically about the polyamorous concept. But let me hear from you. How did you get into that lifestyle that is fascinating? You know, for me, it was, it always felt very natural. I lost my virginity when I was 16 and three and a half weeks later, I was sharing my girlfriend with my best friend. And, you know, it was funny. It was like part of this thing. I mean, I remember one afternoon she wanted to have sex. She had been a virgin too. And I was just tired. And I said, you know, Charles, why don't you go upstairs and surprise her? And he did. And she was really surprised. But, you know, it's sort of like at 16, 17, you know, the boundaries, it's not, you don't have this hard shell like you do when you're talking to somebody who's 30 or 40 years old. Right. You still, the plasticity is there. Exactly. You know, and I think I found that the dynamic is really amazing because a woman, I believe, is wired for two men. I actually believe that. And I believe that my role in the relationships in the last, you know, many years has been, I'm the provider. I'm sort of like daddy. And then, you know, the girls. I was all, hold on, wait a lot. I provide security and I have great sex and whatever. But she then has the comfort to go to a much lower age. So she would go for someone who's, let's say, much younger than her or much more, maybe more, you know, sexier, more vital than I can be at this age or, you know, with my lifestyle and everything like that. So I think it's almost like they have this room to create this incredible romance because I'm the one kind of holding the space for it. So you, the idea that you allow it and feel comfortable with it and, you know, just play very comfortably in the sandbox. I love it. That's what, you know, allows it. That's what enables it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, totally. And I think it's like everyone that I've ever brought into this lifestyle, which in the last, which basically in the last 20 years, no one's come into this, into my relationship having had an, any firsthand experience of this lifestyle. It's been like a workshop. I mean, it's been six months of, okay, this is how you do it. Here, let's look at all the ideas you have about sex, about yourself, about sexuality and let's take those and let's really hold those up to a microscope and see if they're really true. Yeah. You know, and let's see how we can connect. I mean, what is this about? What is the purpose of a relationship? Is it security? Is it so what the outside society can see? Or is it to have this experience of intimacy, this experience of having one soul touched, you know, having two souls touch in this incredible, intimate, accepting energy, which to me is vitalizing and incredibly powerful. And by far more important. I think. But the question is, how do people really accept it? I mean, most people will prefer the non-judgment from society, which is playing along with what is supposed to be. Yes. Rather than finding their happiness. Absolutely. And that, I believe that that's the main reason why, as you said, more people would have tried it and experimented and even, you know, just live their life this way if there wasn't, if it wasn't for the social judgment that is inflicted. I think so. And I think there's also a very real fear. I mean, most relationships, there's so much illusion going on and so much pretending going on that we're fond of saying amongst the people that I know that practice this, that if a person starts a relationship poly, it really has a great chance to be an amazing relationship. Yeah. If a relationship goes for a long period of time being a closed relationship and then opens, it usually fails. Yes. Yes, definitely. Because if you start off with a certain idea of the relationship, and I want to go into the differences between polyamory and swinging or philandering or whatever. Yeah, because people have the wrong idea. I mean, when I talk, especially when a woman presents this idea, and this is from my own experience, most men will look at it as, oh, she's a slut. She just wants to have many, she's one, you know, she wants to have more dick. Different variety of dick. A different flavor for every day of the week. Yes, you know, every day, you know, daily panties. Yes. So... Daily penises. They don't make Sunday because of God. But, honestly... Because of... Sorry. You just got it. Yeah. Well, I didn't hear what you said at first and I was like, what is she... Yeah, there's no Sunday because of God. Yeah, because of God. I thought you said guys. I was like, what? No, guys, yeah. Yes, guys would enjoy Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. But the idea is really that people see it as some sexual, you know, perversion. That someone wants to experiment with so many people and why, how come you're not satisfied with one person? Why can't it be, you know, just... Because monogamy is so enshrined in our, you know, existence. We just can't look at anything else. So, I want you, Tom, to try and tell me how is it really different, you know, being polyamorous than being a swinger or just a cheater? Well, I mean, as poly people, I mean, we value connection and honesty, even honesty that might hurt our feelings in a moment more than anything else. And the truth is that's where the amazing sexual connections come in is when there's that kind of intimacy going on. And the reality is I always tell people, I say, whatever is real for you right now, it's not the absolute, whatever is real for me right now, I should say, isn't absolutely what's real. It's not objectively real. And the truth is when I express it, it actually has a chance to change. So, there in life, if I can recognize the intimacy, if I can keep that, keep that refreshed, that space between us constantly refreshed, then wow, then you have an experience of actual intimacy, which is almost unknown in our whole society in reality. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, situations between parents and kids, between husbands and wives, work relationships, even friendships, you know, it's, there's always this facade. There's never this willingness to like, okay, I'm going to throw it all down and I'm going to be real, I'm going to be completely real. And how empowering is that? If you can really do that, it's an amazing practice. So, that's to me what poly is, what poly is really about. About the realness of it. It's the... About being open and honest. Keeping it real every moment. Keeping it real. Yeah, because, yeah, it's very true and I tend to agree a lot because most relationships are so intertwined with lying and not being honest about things. Yeah. Even basic things that we are uncomfortable with. And I go back to what you said, what you shared that your partner asked for. Yeah. Which, you know, most men will just be so, so insulted by such a proposition. Yeah. You know, honestly, you're not happy with my dick. You know, it's like most of us cannot really admit to anything that is going on in our relationships. Most of us cannot even admit that we find someone else attractive while we're in a relationship. Well, you know, it's ridiculous because we're in a relationship but we're not dead. Yes. Right, exactly. We're still functional humans. Yeah. And, you know, I want to throw out another idea which is that I believe that sexuality, a sexual experience is an amazing modality for healing. Yes. And that to be a healer of a person, if I'm having a sexual, a wholesome, whole sexual experience with a person, that experience can be a healing for that person. It can be a healing for me. And the truth is is that having that, having another person be able to heal me in a way that a current person can't, it's an amazing thing and it's just in our society completely denies it with the exception of sex surrogates of which I have known, you know, a few. And I actually have had sessions with Mare Simone who's one of the most famous sex surrogates in the world. Yes. And she's amazing and whatever but it's just like, wow, you look at it, it's like, it's a modality for healing that people, if a therapist even crosses that line, he can be or she can be, you know, put in jail, I think. I mean, it's incredible. Yeah, you can be fined. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, yes, I do know this because you can be fined or imprisoned because. I know, yeah. Yeah. No, but no, I mean, that touch, like power of the human touch is very healing. Regardless of whether it's just sexual or just a gentle, kind touch. Yes. You know, that people need and so I. I agree, I agree. I want to just say that about the, again, the difference between polyamory and swinging because people, I think people are very confused by it. You know, when you say open relationship to them, it's sexual. And I want to be very specific and say that, and again, there's no judgment in terms of what people practice. They can do whatever they want and whatever makes them happy is, is what should go. As long as you're not hurting anyone. Without their consent. And especially without their consent, very true. And then as long as you're enjoying yourself and both, both partners are happy with the situation, which is crucial. Or all partners. All partners, correct. But it's very true. But the swinging, I want to compare the two because I think there's a very big misconception about what swinging is, what polyamory is. And polyamory is really very small, a very small practice still. And yeah, people are not really aware of what it is. Rarely do I mention that term and people know what it is. I mean, unless they're a part of that community. Most of them are like, they have no idea what it is. So, and I'm going to go into the polygamy part and everything. But I want to say that swinging, the main difference between polyamory and swinging is that swinging is basically sexual and you go into the situation to indulge in any aspect of sexual activity. And then you might become, you know, good friends at the end. Polyamory is the other way around. You are friends and connecting and healing and, you know, caring. And of course, you know, the sexual part might be a very big part of it later. But you go into the situation and correct me if I'm wrong, you go into the situation with caring towards each other, not necessarily the sexual part. And commitment. And commitment. Yeah. Which is a big, big part. I mean, for people, being possessive of the other is the main problem. I mean, because sexuality is something that we like to like keep for ourselves. We don't want to release it. We don't want to give it away. And if you do give it away, it creates the nature of swinging, for instance. And then it becomes like, you know, oh, it's going to ruin our relationship. Then jealousy will emerge. And I want to put things in perspective and say that being polyamorous or being in an open relationship or any way you want to look at it doesn't exclude jealousy, does it? No, it doesn't. Of course not. I mean, that's always the bugaboo in the room, you know, for anyone, especially when a new relationship, because new relationships are exciting. I mean, I can be with my wife for 10 years and love her to death and never want to leave her. And like, yeah, but a new girl comes along and there's something very fresh and exciting about that. It only lasts for like six months. So you have to get through that. And that's it. Well, it's about the same as the chimps. We are, you know, we are them. So we're just dressed better. But yeah, so I agree. And I fully agree with what you said that a new sense of something is exciting. And that's, you know, what creates the interest in even porn sites. You know, the novelty and the variety is what makes things happen and going. But yeah, so yeah, we need to understand that jealousy is a big aspect of relationships, no matter what form they have and that it doesn't really cancel it. So the choice is really, do you want to be possessive of someone's vagina or dick? What did I tell you? What did I say about that? What is it? Legislating my vagina? Yeah, yeah. Sort of like, yeah, making laws for your vagina or your penis is kind of how we live our lives, because this is how things are set in society. This is what we're told that we should be doing. We don't like to share. We don't like to share. No, we don't. We don't like to share. We forgot that thing in kindergarten. Yes. Oh, way before. Way before. And so, and I want to I want to specify also the difference between polyamory and philandering. Just, you know, looking for other partners because it's very different, you know, and I want to go over the forms of polyamory. Which you probably know much better about. So, yeah, so just feel free to tell me. I mean, there's, for instance, open, I don't know, open relationship or an open marriage. I think open relationships are actually the hardest way to go. The reason they're the hardest to go is because I can, I would feel disconnected from my lover's lover. I actually, the instinct is, yeah, push that person away. I never want to see him or her. And the truth is, to do the exact opposite is the most skillful way to actually have, to enhance the relationship, which is to pull that person closer. Yeah, whether I'm in a sexual relationship with him or her or not, to have to feel that connectedness, it's an incredible amplifier. I mean, the sexual connection that they have is incredible. Of the relationship. Absolutely. I mean, it's something palpable that I felt with men. I mean, I can remember in my- Did you try both? Oh, I've tried it all. I mean, in this area, I've tried it all. I mean, my last wife, for the last five and a half years of our marriage, she basically took license and had three different boyfriends. And I was basically at home, you know, raising small kids and like that. And I always made a point of really trying to bring them close. They weren't interested in getting to know me. They didn't want to get to know me, but I still made a point of it. It's like, I have to see you. I have to, I try to go and jump in bed with them. I'd say, you know, I'd really, I'd make it a request. I'd be like, listen, if nothing else, I want to see you guys in bed because then I can feel it and it's different. I can feel somehow connected to it rather than- How did they feel about it, the men? You know, the men were just confounded. They thought I'd want to kill them and I didn't. I wanted to be friends. Yeah, because that's what we expect. Right. You're having sex with my wife. How do you allow this to happen? I am going to kill you. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah, but I could see that he, that these guys were healing my first wife and they actually were. They were giving her healings that I couldn't give. They had qualities of energy that I don't have. They had an entire personality that I don't have. And so I could see that she really needed that because we'd been together since she was 19. And so I was really very happy about it. I mean, ultimately we didn't stay together, but it wasn't because of that. So in a way, the polyamorous way is very altruistic. You kind of care for the other. I think it's selfish. You think it's selfish? I think it's selfish. Meaning I think that it's, I believe it's the most skillful way to live for happiness to be whole myself. Think about it. How can I be whole if my partner isn't? If my partner's limited in any way to really reach her fullest effulgence as a human being. That's very altruistic. Is it? But to me it's selfish because I think I benefit. Yeah, you do benefit, but I'm sorry, you do benefit. Yeah. But I think that you see the interest of the other and kind of care about how they feel and how whole they are. That's rare in human society, unfortunately. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, I think it's an interesting concept too, that maybe we could explore is this concept that you have a partner because you've mentioned it a few times that you have a partner yet. You know, I think it may be a hard concept maybe for our listeners to also to understand that the relationship of polyamory and having a partner and how that all works. So perhaps you could explain it a little bit more because you've talked about wanting to help your partner be open and- Well, I'm a big believer in marriage. And by marriage, I mean a committed relationship that lasts as long as it's supposed to, you know? Yeah. But having a commitment and, you know, commingling money, commingling a life, having a life together, I feel that I'm better that way. But the definition of marriage in almost every society on earth is- Monogamy. Well, yeah, that's the cornerstone of it. You can do anything you want. You can do anything you want in a marriage. You can beat the crap out of your wife every day. As long as you're together. As long as you're pretending to be monogamous, you're married. Yeah, that's okay. I want to just specify and tell our listeners that if there was a question about it, that polyamory doesn't necessarily involve marriage. Yeah, no, it does not. I want just people to understand the difference between that and polygamy that we're going to go into and how that one is legal and that one isn't and the whole thing. But I do think that it's a very, very altruistic way of looking at your partner. And you think it's selfish. I don't. I mean, I think it's admirable. Enlightened self-interest. How's that? Yeah. Yeah, it's very nice. But I want you to kind of tell me a little more, if you can, about poly fidelity and intimate network or- I think the key coming in, when we're in a relationship with a new person or what I have learned, the most important thing above all else is honesty and communication. Yes. It's like, okay, I tell my lovers, I say, I love you even when I don't. Like, Tom, what do you feel about me? Right now, I feel nothing. It's just the truth. Like right now, I feel nothing. That is so honest, yes. In five minutes, I'm like, oh my God, I'm in the rapture of love with you. But in that moment, I didn't feel anything. It's like, who feels something all the time? And why create this false front of always loving you, always being attracted to you? And the truth is we go through phases. As them flows. Yeah, and poly fidelity, I think, it's something, the fidelity part is honesty. I mean, I've never required monogamy of any kind or any kind of don't be with other people of anyone that I've ever been with. So I really, I can't imagine, because to me, it's such a repressive energy. It's such an energy of kind of ownership and such an energy of like, well, that means you have to be with me. I've got a monopoly. You know, it's like the post office. It's like, you want to mail a letter, you gotta use the post office. Definitely. It has to be with me. Isn't that sad? It is very sad. To enforce something like that is sad. It is, but society does that all the time. It's, yeah. It is. And the question is, from your experience, did you ever come across someone that came into this relationship, believing that they can be polyamorous and live this lifestyle, and then, you know, wake up one day and say, no, fuck it, I can't. No. Did you come across it? I've only come across one case, and this was a man who absolutely loved me, absolutely loved my wife at the time, who was afraid of what his son would think. And it's so ironic because his son is now, probably emerging as a gay person, which is just incredibly ironic because he was afraid to. It is, it is. Yeah, he was afraid to come out to him, and the son is coming out. It's actually the opposite. I mean, I've often felt kind of guilt or this kind of a sense of responsibility because once I've initiated someone into this way of a relationship, I've never seen anyone go back. Okay. In particular, the women, because once the women are that empowered and they realize like, wow, I can have- That they can live this life. Exactly. They would never settle for that other life again. To be closed in and to... To be the property of a man, essentially. Yeah, it's very true. It's very true. I want you to tell me a little about triad, you know, a mono, poly, there's all sorts of different varieties of options. Well, I mean, I think, you know, the type of relationships that I have is, I'm basically straight, but I'm an open person. So I am capable and enjoy intimacy with men as well. But, you know, I think most of the triads that I've seen have involved obviously two women and a man, which is often, to me, worse than a marriage. So bisexuality is usually a part of a triad. It is for me. You know, it is for me. And, but I think that, you know, for most people, there's a primary relationship. So there's a relationship that started out that probably maybe has a legal basis. You know, like I'm married to my wife without a prenup. So it's like, you know, it's going to be ugly if she leaves. Especially without a prenup. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But I think like, it's that kind of thing. But most of them are, you know, unfortunately the people that walk through the door of my parties, I mean, my last party I had, I don't know, at least 350 people come to my house and, you know, amazing, great open people. I want you to tell us a little about that group. Yeah. Well, you know, I took it over like five years ago and there was about 180 members at the time. It's called Loving More. It's on Meetup. And there were about 180 members at the time. Now I have, I think 920 or something like that. So it's grown greatly. I've thrown open my house. I've provided dinners. I've provided a completely free environment for people to come and commingle. We have discussion groups beforehand. So the different types of people that come and meet, different types of interests can be addressed in a group. And so they're really great parties. But I mean, it's really something that almost all of the people that come to my parties, it's basically a version of a man with a slew of women. Interesting. Yeah. A harem. So wait a minute, you're getting even less than, unless you really are into women, which maybe they are, but you're getting even less than you were when you, if you just took a straight marriage. You know what I mean? Because you have a divided attention of, you know. Yeah, I know. What are you going to do with all that pussy? Yeah. I'm probably not entirely sure all the time. I know, I know. So yeah, so, but there are legal issues when it comes to being polyamorous. Yes. Aren't they? Yes, well, I mean, fortunately in the state of California, it's obviously not legal to marry more than one person, but it is now specifically in the statutes that you cannot get your kids taken away, for example, because you have more than one partner. That's good. So in a manner of custody, it's not a risk. Exactly. But the unfortunate thing is it always would provide an imbalance in a relationship. So it's like, if you have two people that are legally married with all that stuff, they're always going to be the primary relationship as opposed to people that have no legal standing whatsoever. Right. So I want to talk about polygamy, which is very different. And of course it's illegal in every state, in the states. And there are certain societies worldwide where it's acceptable, but mostly it's not. And you can, you know, it's illegal. You can just, you can be charged for it and then trialed and everything. And the thing is, how is that really different from polyamory? I mean, to me, it's the subjugation of women. Okay. I mean, I just say it straight out. It just, that's how I see it. I mean, if I talk to the women and they're like, yeah, I really wanted this, that's really great. But if it's basically, I'll abandon you if you don't let this other woman come into our relationship and you just basically have to deal with it. It's just like, wow, it seems even worse than a regular marriage to me. So it's worse than monogamy. Because then you have a few women fighting for your attention. Oh, and it's ugly. Yeah. It's really, I mean, when you see people doing it and practicing it in reality, it's- And it should be said that it is practiced in the United States in certain areas and it's overlooked, but it's illegal. And the most familiar form of it is polygamy, which is one man married to a few women. And the reason, this is completely off, I mean, to me, because it's worse, it has to be in a form of marriage and the choice is completely by the man and women have less say in this. So to me, it kind of limits the rights of the woman even more. I mean, because it puts you in a position where he can marry, I don't know, five, six women and you have to share all these- And resources. And resources. And you have to be like a servant to more kids, to more women, to more family. You know, bigger families, bigger situation. How do you, what do you feel? I mean, what do you think about it? I mean, is that like people confuse these two aspects of because of the poly factor. Yeah. Well, I think any situation where a person is restricted or freedom is restricted or where they will be, have a hard time leaving, whether it's, you know, the Church of Scientology or that kind of a community where you're like, okay, you know, a woman, her entire life is this family. She, they have blended families, blended kids, her best friends are her sister wives. She can't leave. I mean, in her mind, I mean, she could leave, but in practicality, it's very difficult to leave a situation like that. And mostly she'll be harmed. I think she's emotionally harmed or probably came in damaged. Yeah. That's what I suspect. Yeah. Well, you know, studies show that the wealthy today, unlike, you know, in other times, are having, of course, less children than the poor, which is an interesting thing. And Richard Dawkins pointed out that if religion really kind of limits, you know, the polygamous species, then there's no wonder that, you know, wealth is in contradiction of reproduction. How do you feel about it? I mean, if we have more resources, we have less kids. Well, I mean, I think it's what people value. I mean, I think we live in a very narcissistic society. Yeah. And I think we have, we live in a society where the wealthy people are having kids much, much later. So a lot of times I know a lot of people that would rather like to have more kids, but simply couldn't. I mean, they had their first kid when they were 39 or 40. So, you know, there you go. But I think when you get to the, you know, the upper echelon of wealth, I think then all the rules are off. I mean, how many kids does Brad Pitt have? How many kids does Steven Spielberg? I mean, they have, I think, 15 kids between them. That's a lot of kids. Yeah, and a lot of responsibility for the women. Yeah. I mean, you know. Well, in their households, it's probably, you know, they have, you know, back-to-back staff and whatnot to take care of kids. Right. But women invest much more in having and caring. Oh, yeah. And just, you know, carrying these children through pregnancy. Yes. I see your point. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to try and examine, are there, if you are familiar or if you experimented with other forms of non-monogamy, I mean, or were you always sure that this is how you wanted to conduct your life? This is always how I've wanted to live. If anything, the experiments that I've had have been in what you would call generally open relationships. And open relationships are a rough road. Why? Because you, one, if I'm connected, I mean, to me, I feel like there's an energetic connection with my wife, for example, or with my lover. It's like, if she's going to have a relationship outside of our relationship that's ongoing for, let's say, years, it's just rough road. And it's very hard to find balance in those kinds of situations. I personally far prefer bringing everybody in, having a committed- Everybody knowing each other. Yeah. Relationships. And being really connected. Yeah. And being really connected. Relationships. And being really connected. And being really connected. We have sex together. I mean, we do it all together. It's like, it's an amazing connecting thing, rather than like, okay, we're going to go off and I'm going to have- I don't want to know. Yeah. Please keep that from me. I can't handle it, my fragile ego. Yeah. I know. Those are very rough road. And that's what most people associate with any kind of openness in their relationship. And they might experiment with it for 90 days. And that would bring anyone to tears if they love the person that they're with. It's a very rough road. And it's a transition, you can get used to it. But it's not something that I ever found comfortable or that it really fostered intimacy, which is what I want in my relationships. It's like, you know what? If our goal is intimacy, then let's at least kind of have our base be together. Even if we go off on random forays possibly. Right. Let's at least talk about it. Yeah, exactly. And I want to know, I want to meet who you're with, or I want to, you know, try to make an effort to be connected to this people, which we always are able to do if we try. I have a question. Do you think it's harder for men or for women to be in these polyamorous relationships? Have you noticed a difference? I think it's really a question of emotional maturity. I think most of the time, most men are not- So not gender wise. Yeah, I think so. And I think most men naturally, according to the culture, you know, especially men from cultures in Latin America, for example, very possessive of women. Machismo. Absolutely. I mean, they're justified, absolutely feel justified in hitting their wife if she even talks back. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of in the culture. What are you doing talking back? Yeah, I mean, can you imagine? Yeah. Fucking somebody else? Are you kidding? You'd kill them. You're dead. Kill her. Yeah. I come from a Latin American background. I'm Mexican American. And it is, I'm very outspoken, very loud woman. First of all, very independent thinker. And it is- God bless you. Yeah. And it does, it does pose problems culturally for me. And I have to agree with you. I think the machismo is a difficult part of certain cultures in general. And that's one of the reasons I was asking that question, because I think for a society where we teach men to be possessive of women, to have this kind of dominance where we have this patriarchal society, Yeah. it's a very difficult part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, I think it would be a lot more difficult for men to be okay and comfortable with their female partner, for instance. Well, women, I think women are more, I mean, I hate to generalize, but I do think that the women I've encountered, I should say, are more comfortable with their feelings, more able to express their feelings, more able to sit with a feeling. Yeah. Less emotionally violent. I mean, that certainly doesn't apply to every, you know- No, it doesn't apply at all, because I want to say that women in general are much more possessive. Yeah. And generally, they're more jealous. Yeah. And I want to get to it. I mean, really, I want to ask, how do women in this society, in this, you know, practice of polyamory, really come to the conclusion that they can tolerate the fact that they're sharing their men? Because a lot of women will tell me when I talk about it, why would you want him, and I'm quoting, why would you ever want him to say, I love you to someone else? Yeah. So how do you explain it? No, no, but seriously, because of that fear, of sharing your man and whatever he brings with him. Well, I guess part of, what is, I guess, really have to ask ourselves, what is the goal of a relationship? Is it something that provides economic security? Well, one would hope, I guess, to some degree that, but is that the actual goal of it? Or is the goal intimacy? To have this experience of this incredible vitality that can happen between two people, which is enhanced by a sexual connection. Is that the goal of a relationship? If it is, then I think that's what I would tell a woman who said that to me, I would say, well, look at that woman. Can you make love to her? Can you feel connected to her? Your man is, isn't it? Try, see what the possibilities are. Don't close yourself off from that possibility. Yeah, well, you know that our society is very restrictive and we see infidelity as something that, you know, is a main reason to just break everything off. And, you know, anything sexual that is taking place. I was gonna say, I think that's the, when we're saying infidelity, I think that's the opposite. I think that's the opposite of polyamory. Yeah, of course. Because there's not, there's not that type of, what infidelity is, is it's betrayal. And it's not being honest. Right, the lie. Yeah, the lie. It's dishonesty. Yes. Yeah. So I think that's why, I think it's that dishonesty that actually breaks the relationship, not necessarily the sexual part. Well, you know, yeah, the sexual part has an aspect, definitely. But I think that people need to understand that it's not free for all as well. I mean, there are rules in any relationship. Yes. Correct? And responsibilities. I think there's a responsibility that I care for your feelings. Right, that you're not, I'm not gonna put you in a position where you feel hurt. Exactly, exactly. And I mean, I think it's a responsibility that, yeah, I have to be aware of everyone, especially when you're talking about groups of people. It's like, okay, if I'm gonna stay connected to three or four people, it actually takes some intentionality. It can't just be whatever I want, whenever I want. It's like, okay. And you have to like be aware of everyone in a group like that in order to really take, to really care and have a wonderful experience. And see, that's where I kind of go with Lamor and the altruistic nature of polyamory. Because if you're being conscientious of all these other people's feelings, it doesn't seem very self-involved or self-interested. Yeah, also, yeah, I agree that they reciprocate. But also, what Tom is referring to, I believe, is that it fills you with joy and happiness to see your partner happy. And that's the selfish part that you referred to. But I do feel that in society, we care for ourselves first. Unfortunately, in this society, we care for ourselves first, and then we don't really care. You know, if my wife is unhappy, because I'm not, our sexual relationships are, you know, are, whatever we're doing. Because she's yearning for somebody else. She's yearning for someone else. It's not satisfactory. We're not really communicating on the same level. We have different expectations from our relationship. You know, whatever it is. Or just the fact that if you come across men and women that are the same, you know, age range, then the lust factor is gonna be very different. I mean, because female sexuality is so different in terms of age-wise. I love that part of this thing. Yeah. Isn't it? I mean, I always say, you know, that every, you know, 40-year-old will be happy with a college girl thrusting college boy, thrusting from the back. You know, she's like the best there. But it's really like impossible to conduct a life this way. And so we put two people that are at the same age range into a relationship. And then by the time she starts flourishing at the age of like 35, 40 to 50, he's like done. The guy's like done. And so nothing is really happening and she's miserable or not mentioning that. Do you find that? Absolutely. And I mean, most of my friends needless to say are doing the traditional monogamy thing. So it's very interesting to discuss their relationships with them. And I'm non-judgmental about what they say. How do they feel about your practice? Well, I mean, first of all, I think they are all incredibly curious. The question that I get most often. And jealous. Oh yeah, they're definitely jealous. And how, you know, basically the question is, how does it work? How can I get in? Explain to me that situation. How can I be a part of it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you know, it's, I mean, the thing that I can't convey in words, it can only be felt, is what it actually feels like to be in a poly family. How? Try to explain to us. Well, you get this, I mean, there's this feeling of sharing. There's this feeling of, wow, this is how we're supposed to live. I mean, before the plow, I'm convinced this is how we did live. I mean, we lived in little villages of 30 to 50. Before the industrial, you know. Yeah, of course. You know, that's what pushes us to the Darwinian, you know, view of things. But. Yeah. But I think, yeah, the way it feels is it feels like, oh, it's like relaxing into something that. You're relieved. Yeah, and you see the other people, and you're like, wow, they're so lonely. That's my feeling is like, wow, they're so lonely. And it's like people, yeah, they live with their parents, or they live with their siblings or like that. But it's like, that's not the same as living with your lovers. I mean, we have one big bed in my house. We're four of us. How big is your bed? That's a good question. Two kings next to each other. Oh, that's nice. With one big thing, mattress top or whatever. But it's a big bed. That must be a lot of fun. Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. I love it. It does sound like a lot of fun. That sounds like a lot of fun. No, but I find it very interesting that your monogamous friends are like so curious about it, but they won't, you know, make the leap. Their whole lives would explode and they know it. You know, and the loneliest thing I ever encounter in life is a married woman who's been in a long marriage who just had the end of an affair. And sometimes they'll confide in that in me and maybe me alone because they know that. Yeah, because they trust you. Because they trust me. And you're not going to judge them. Oh. That's the other thing. I mean, judge them. Oh, my gosh, no. But the thing is, that's a loneliness that cannot even be described. I mean, she's mourning the loss of a lover and she has to pretend to be committed in a marriage. Because she cannot, you know, yeah, she can't, you know, she's brokenhearted. She can't come to her husband and tell him, you know, I'm brokenhearted over someone else. She can't tell her best friend. Yeah, it's a sad thing to see. And I see it, you know, a fair amount. It's really something. It happens a lot. I think that's a misconception, too, that somebody told me, do you think women cheat as much as men? And I was like, yes. Who do these men cheat with? Yes. I mean, the numbers are the same. But the thing is, really, women are so in a monogamous relationship, are so turned off, you know, so often. Yes. That they don't know, you know, how to explain it even to themselves. And if you're going to dare speak about it with someone else or, you know, just explain how you feel, you might be, you know, labeled as this or that or a slut or just someone that is, you know, disgusting in a way of the way society looks at you. There's nothing more beautiful than seeing a woman have that spot touched by a young guy, honestly. That is very true. No. I was like, yes, that is very true. I find that women, it's very true. I know. Speaking of which. Yes, I'm like getting a little. But I find, look, the thing is, here's what I think. And scientifically, it's very, it's very, very, very definite in this position. But the thing is, women that suffer from any form of dysfunction, it usually has to do with the fact that they're just unhappy in their relationship, because the fact is most women that come out of a monogamous relationship and divorce or separate from their spouse or partner after a long time, find that their sexuality is in perfect shape. All of a sudden they can function and be orgasmic and they don't suffer from vaginal dryness. Yes. It's not organic. It's your husband. Yes, it's your husband. No, it's not necessarily your husband, but the fact that you are in a relationship that is, you know, oppressive. Yes. And kind of restrictive. Yep. So when it comes to that, you know, what you are, the formula that you're telling us about is the perfect solution. Yes. But people are afraid of being judged. Yes. And they're terrified when they, I mean, you know, girl, women are afraid for me to get close to their husbands, afraid that I'll influence them. That you're going to turn their husbands into... Yeah. Let me tell you about a gentleman they know. More open people. Or that if I get close to their wives, God, I'm going to give their wives idea. That's actually the biggest one is the idea that I would give their wives ideas about, oh, wow, there is actually an alternative way to live here. You can actually enjoy your sex life. Yeah, you can. Oh, and I can have a young lover now? Yes. I mean, but it is true. And I find how often do you come across that reaction? All the time. I mean, all the time. I mean, I... From people that don't know... Well, I mean, the truth is, is that if I make a new friend of any kind and I... And you're open about it because I want to talk about how it is to come. You mentioned that the friend with a gay son, which is funny because being polyamorous is kind of like coming out, right? Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, I make the choice. It's like in any relationship that I'm going to have, it's there's eventually the point where, because it's not a five minute talk. It's not like sitting here and saying, I'm gay. Okay, everybody gets what that is. Yeah, okay, we're done. No, it's a workshop. It's a, you know, the first discussion might last an hour and a half while they're like, what about your kids? And what about your wife? And won't she leave you? And you know, haven't you? And I'm like, you know... How is she not jealous? Yeah, so I usually avoid it. I mean, the truth is I really wait until a relationship I feel is worth making the commitment before I'm going to sit there and go through... Start explaining. Weeks, honestly, weeks of just trying to like help them understand me, how I live. And you're not always successful, I guess. No, I'm not. I mean, I get judged all the time. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm entrenched in a lot of conservative stuff here in Los Angeles. And, you know, I know I get talked about by people who don't even know me. I'm certain. And I hear of it all, I hear about it all the time. Well, I think all of us here do. Yeah, I'm sure. Oh, no. Maybe it's a sign of our success, right? Exactly. Hey, as long as they're talking. With that original, right? Yeah, exactly. It is very true. And I think we can talk about it for hours. I mean, hours on end. I'm so happy. I'm so happy that you came. Thank you so much for being with us and would love to have you again. Oh, thank you. It's really been a pleasure. Explain to us how everything works. And of course, again, give us the number if anybody wants to call us or connect them. Oh, yes, it's 1-800-893-9562. You could also reach, Lamor, do you want to give your email address? Yeah, well, they can just go to my site, drlimor.com, which is D-R-L-I-M-O-R.com, and that will be easy. Just hit contact and send us an email if you want to talk to us, if you want to call us, if you want to leave a message and, you know, with a question, whatever you want. Next time we'll attend to it. And this has been a blast. I'm so glad you came. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm Dr. Limor Blockman. And I'm Luanne Hernandez. Bye. Bye-bye.!