I'm going to poke you. And now, ladies and gentlemen, for the handful in attendance and the millions listening on the web on skidroad.la, this is Madtime Radio. All right, everybody. Welcome back to another installment of Madtime Radio. We are your hosts. I'm Rich. We got Kale here. Yes, sir. Coming to you from Skid Row Studios, downtown Los Angeles. Don't forget to check us out. We are on Facebook, and you can catch us on Stitcher, or you can call the show. We are live. 1-800-893-9562. And, Kale, who do we have in the studio today? Hey, before we get real quick in the studio, I want to thank you for having me on the show. I know if you're on Facebook, I think you can listen live. We got an app right on Facebook. You can click on the Facebook app and hear the show live. Oh, all right. So just go to the Skid Row Studios fan page, and you can stream it live from there. There you go. There you go. Now, who's in studio with us today? All right, man. We got a little history lesson for all you guys out there in the BJJ world. We got one of the original 12 BJJ Dirty Dozen in the house, Chris Hodder. Hey, Chris. Say hi. What's happening, bros? Oh, wow. Our live studio audience chiming in. Oh, yeah. My live studio audience. Let's get you the other one. Where they are? They're always a little late. You got to excuse that. There we go. Better late than never. That's about as live as we get here. That's good. Well, thanks for coming in and taking some time to talk to us. We just really like to dive right in and like to hear a little bit about your background in the sport. No problem, guys. The short version or the long one or the middle one? We got 58 minutes, so however long you want. You know, I was involved in martial arts pretty much my whole life. You know, like a lot of guys, my age, I'm 47. I grew up watching, you know, kung fu and Chinese kung fu movies. I did karate a long time, community rec center. But kung fu always just loved martial arts. And high school did wrestling. Did very well. My last year I was injured, so I didn't wrestle. Went in the Marine Corps Reserves. Dibble dabbled with some boxing after that. And then I got really involved in the Jeet Kune Do world. And couldn't believe that Dan Inosano taught in L.A. in my backyard. You know, he's the heir of the Jeet Kune Do throne. And I quickly got really involved in that. And through that I found Muay Thai and had one pro fight. My Muay Thai coach, his name was Lot. I can't remember his whole name. He had an aneurysm in his sleep and died when he was like 34. And I remember like after I had one fight, I won the fight, but it hurt so bad. My shins hurt. I bent. I had a lot of pain. I broke my shin in round one. And it went on, you know, four more rounds. And I outboxed the guy. He was a Cambodian guy. But I remember thinking had he hit me with half of what I hit him with, I would have been down. That he was tougher. You know, I was just faster and my boxing was better. So, you know, I always loved grappling arts. I always knew in my heart of hearts that the grappling arts, meaning wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, greco, were, I'll use the term, the easier, softer way. You know, I don't have to get punched and punched. Because real martial arts, reality arts, unlike the arts that are more for fantasy and stuff, the real arts are the art of an exchange. You know, in, but jiu-jitsu, we're exchanging attacks of arm bars and attacks of locks and sweeps and chokes. And in boxing, we're exchanging strikes. And I wanted to minimize the impact of that exchange after that. And so I went to El Camino College to my, the old wrestling room. And I saw Mits Yamashita on the mat. Showing a guy how to escape out of a mount. And this was late 87. And as a wrestler, I'm looking at this. And this is long before UFC or any of this stuff. And I'm watching, I'm thinking a mount, nobody mounts anymore. That's like sixth grade brawls at school and stuff like that. And I went, Mits, I don't think that'll work. And then I watched a guard. And I'm like, a guard? You know, that looks even weirder. And so he goes, hop on the mat and try it. And he ended up arm locking me, choking me out on my back and all that stuff. And I went, okay, I want to learn Aikido. Because he was the Aikido guy. And he said, well, this isn't Aikido, it's the jiu-jitsu. And I'm not really allowed to actually instruct it. But the guy who is, here's his number. And he scratched out Horion. And his number. And so as soon as I got home, I actually called up. And Horion answered the phone. And I scheduled a private. And that was how my jiu-jitsu started. Wow. Were this the garage days or were they already? The garage days, yep. This was the garage days. It was 20 private for Higan Machado. Then he was named Higan Gracie back then. It was Higan, Hoist, and Higgins. And Hoist, and Higgins, and Horion, all in Horion's garage. A couple interesting, I didn't know his name was Higan Gracie though. That was how he was introduced back then. So why did he change his name? You know, it's one of those family things they do. If you're a guy who's one of their guys who's top, you get the last name. It's like Hodger Gracie over in England. He's actually Hodger Gomez. But he's Hodger Gracie when he fights. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess you're, it looks like you got your black belt in 96, right? 96. From Machado. Yep. Oh, okay. From Higan Gracie. From Higan, yeah. Okay. I'm still just, I can't stop thinking about that $20 of private. Yeah, that sounds like. Yeah, yeah. And that's an all-star. I don't remember, when was this, 88 you said? In 88. Was 20 bucks a lot of money? For me at the time, it actually was. That's a good deal. But it was, I scratched up everything I could. And I was like, because I'd done wrestling, Muay Thai, as soon as I experienced with jiu-jitsu, I knew I'd found the gold mine. I knew I found the martial art that I had in essence been after my whole life. It was, especially back then, it was the ultimate equalizer. It was the thinking man's martial art that was real. Not, okay, you block like this and then you punch and you pull your hand back. It's stuff that you knew worked right away. You felt dominated right away. It's like my first. My first up private was with Hoist. And it was when they were making the inaction tapes. So they were also looking for guys to challenge them. Oh, so you're talking about those open door videos that you see all over. Yeah, and in my application I'd written, I'd done wrestling, boxing, all this stuff. So at first, Hoist is like, are you here to fight? And I'm scared. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm here to learn. I mean, I had to like, oh, like, I assure you, I'm here to learn the jujitsu. I'm not here to challenge you. Right, I'm not here to challenge you. And, you know, but times have changed a lot since the old days, the old challenge days. And it was a little different back in the olden days. Do you think now it's more because there's money? Back then it was more pride? I don't know if it's money or pride. But, you know, this the way it is. This the way I look at it. Like any art, let's say music. Let's just say rock and roll. Who invented rock and roll? You can't really say. I mean, some will say it was Elvis. But then people will go, well, Elvis ripped it off from the black guys who had no money and Elvis had the money. Some say, no, it's not really Elvis. You know, who invented jujitsu? It's there is no invention. It's I personally believe if you went back into ancient Rome or Sparta, there were guys arm locking you in the guard. It was just lost. Right. Like the old pancreation. Yes, I'm sure. Very. But and of course, now, now we're in this age of instant info. You just know. Right now, who won Abu Dhabi right on the Internet? Oh, yeah. Within four hours, you'll see what move won Abu Dhabi right in the open class or in about 15 YouTube videos on how to do it. Right. Exactly. And and for and that's really only in the last like 12 years, really. I don't know how long YouTube is, but been around. But pre YouTube. You know, if you had a. If you had a VHS of a move, it was probably already old, but it was really cool. And martial arts were much more regional and each school much more had its own style because each school could actually keep a move sort of a secret move until it was used. And so when I began the jujitsu. Gracie, but you Jitsu. What I believe happened and I'm no like expert historian is sometime after World War Two. The Maeda who taught Haleo and Carlos was basically showing what would be called then judo. And then there was the judo split from the jujitsu, which is really all terms. It was a grappling art wearing a gi emphasized mostly on a throw with a grappling afterwards. And as judo began to evolve in Japan, Europe and the United States in order to make it a spectator sport and a sport allowed for a lot of people to do it. And then the other thing that happened was that the spectator sport and a sport allowing kids, they began adding more and more rules. Like you can't cross the face. You can't do this stuff. Whereas in Brazil, they added no rules and even removed rules. So there's the big split. And I don't know what years and all that happened. But what kind of it turned into Valley Tuto? Yeah, but not even yet. It was still. The jujitsu I learned in 1988 as an example is nothing like what we now from myths. You're saying the game is from no, but from the Gracie's and Machado's. The sport has evolved and it keeps evolving. And, you know, I'm just talking and talking. But it's and again, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not an expert on the actual history of martial arts and all that. I only have my experience and stuff. But but I remember Higgins showing me the black and white tapes of him as a kid and others. And he would even say that it was basically a judo without the rules. A lot of it was. And Haleo and Carlos. The thing that they really brought is the guard. The guard was what was so unique from all other grappling arts. But the judo kind of had it a little bit. Wrestling has no guard because if you're on your back, you're you're done. Yeah. And but the guard was what was magic. Yeah. Because judo, essentially, if you throw somebody or show controlling, you're in the game. Yeah. And you're in, let's say, side control or knee on belly position. You only have like so many seconds before they stand you right. Exactly. Exactly. Even if you I guess I mean, I did judo for a while, too. But if you throw your opponent and you show control, they just, you know, call you bone rate. You win the fight. You win. Right. It seems like it's more kind of looked at as like a more of an acrobatic type of thing where it looks flashy and, you know, they just get past that one part. I think that happened as a result of the rules. And we're watching that happen now in sport with jujitsu. People will fight to win within the rules of the game. And the modern sport, the jujitsu open guard isn't a great guard in MMA or in the street. You know what I'm saying? Right. Your groins exposed and all that stuff. And the original judo was based on if you can throw a guy. And lay him down, then if you wanted, you could spike him on his head. Therefore, that match would be over in the street. Right. But once it gets so involved in a sport, you start losing reality. You know what I'm saying? Right. As applied in a quote unquote self defense thing. You say it's practicality on the. Yeah. And that's one of those areas in. See, I call them. There's martial arts. There's martial arts. There's martial arts. There's martial arts. There's martial arts. There's martial arts. There's martial arts and martial sports. And they aren't the same goal in those things. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's how they talk about, you know, people that stall or people that just use like, you know, like leg locks and things like that. A lot of people kind of look down on that type of thing and, you know, they want to end the matches early. Advantage hunting. Right. Or what's your. What's your feeling now on some tournaments that now they want to talk about going submission only? You know, I think it's a great idea, but what inevitably will happen is really long matches. And in a perfect world, I think it ought to be no points, no time limit until one guy acquits or taps. And that would be the ultimate reality of it, which was the original way of the Gracies. Right. You know, it's can you do an hour-long fight? I think, too, it's going to bring in more factors, like more factors than winning, as opposed to just technique is going to be conditioning and, you know, endurance. And so guys are going to have to bring a lot more to the table. Yes, yes. I just think if you look at something like the Pan Ams, if that was submission only, boy, that'd be like a, it would be a week-long tournament, right? It would be a month-long tournament. Right. I know, like, Goker got a tournament that's kind of a hybrid of both where it's, let's say it's a six-minute match, and the first three minutes is no points, all submission. Right. And then the next, maybe the next two, maybe it's a five-minute match, but the next two minutes, they add points, and if there's a tie after five minutes, then first takedown wins. Yep. I mean, but it's like you said, you can't have the best of both worlds, but it's... It seems like, to me, it seemed like a pretty, when I read the rules and I was looking through, I was like, ah, it's a pretty good compromise, but... It's a good compromise, and, you know, I think, like, everything in life, you know, whether it's religion or politics, it's going to piss somebody off. You're a compromise in the rules are always going to piss somebody off. And you're always going to find somebody to disagree with you, regardless of what it is. And, yeah, and there really is no way to have the ideal, perfect competition. Yeah. So back, like, how long did it take you to get a black belt? I mean, you got it in 96. How long did it take you? Was that seven or eight years, something like that? So, like, in that time span of seven, eight years, like, how is the jiu-jitsu different from it is now? Obviously, it's more of a sport now, but, I mean, it's probably really tough. Oh, it's completely changed. You know what? I like to say that the... The jiu-jitsu that I learned in 1988 and 89 looks nothing like what now we're doing, or I even teach. And the sport has evolved. And there's been what I call three big explosions in its evolution. And one of them was the Rio explosion, when there was enough black belts who, began to open up their own academies in Rio and Sao Paulo, and made other moves and other styles. And in that Rio explosion came the X-Guard, a La Hiva guard, the Spider guard. The entire open guard game happened while I was a late blue belt, and I was a late purple belt. When that game just really began, like, wow, what is this cool new game? And I remember it was really cool. Like, Higgins Hole in the Wall School, I would be so excited, but because I'd like, but come in in the morning and there would be four purple belts sleeping on the mat, two brown belts, didn't speak any English, and I knew I would get whatever was the newest thing. And I knew I would get whatever was the newest thing. And I knew I would get whatever was the newest game out of Rio. Right. And that was when the Machado school was pretty new, and it was really blowing up. And we got a lot of great new fresh with jiu-jitsu. But was that looked, I know you were saying it was a different, it was a part of the evolution of the sport, but was it looked down upon where like the old school guys were like, that's not going to work, just smash and pass? Or was it like, hey, let's incorporate that into our style and see if it works? You know, the Machado's, one of the things that I always liked about them, and you know, there was a point where, where there was a big split at Horryan's Academy, just as he opened up. And I knew I could go, I could remain at Horryan's Academy, go with Higin or Hickson. And I went with Higin, mostly because he was close and he was really open-minded. Like he would ask me about wrestling moves and how it works. He was hungry to learn more about other grappling styles. Hickson was up in Malibu, was just getting involved in Pride and was kind of an absentee coach there a while. So it was like, it was like, I'm going with Higin. And... I got to get Higin's number from you and see if you'll charge me 20 bucks a private. Yeah. And then it was really cool. It's like, but because now as a coach, I understand that one-on-ones are kind of a pain in the ass, but like Higin would call me up and say, Chris, come over, help me on a private. And I'd be sure. And I would be over in his garage all the time, helping him, with a private, which is a lot of way how I learned from blue to a purple belt. I spent a lot of time helping Higin as his dummy. Well, that's a good way to absorb stuff too, right? It was a great way. And you were talking, we were talking off the air about too, how it's evolving. You were saying about other sports getting in the mix with, with Jiu Jitsu now. Yup. That was the Western wrestling also. I'll say, and that includes American and Eastern European and Iranian who are the big wrestling countries really changed it. And that change started happening probably in the mid nineties. I, that, that was this other huge change where it wasn't about holding on the guard anymore. It was about be the guy on top. And when you're in guard, you don't have to necessarily use, you don't necessarily use your legs as a sweep. It's flip back on your knees, pop up and shoot. And it was like, and I love that game now that a game when I was brand new, wouldn't work until, you know, enough, but Jiu Jitsu, then you can start adding in your wrestling. And it was like, wow, this is like an awesome blend. And who are some of the characters that you, you know, that you can remember that really kind of contributed or, you know, that, that made them feel around around around around around around around I hate naming names because what will inevitably happen is I'll be halfway home and I'll feel like the biggest asshole that I miss. Like a guy who absolutely changed my game and everything, I'll have missed his name. You get that text message. Thanks, Chris, for remembering me those 20 hours. You chucked me under the bus. I'm the guy who showed you that bitch in Lowe's ankle pick and you threw me under the bus. I guess since you've been around so many people in this sport. Me, being a student and also just a fan of watching these matches and everything, guys to me that stand out like Coprinha that brought his capoeira style. I guess there's some people that are really exciting to watch. Very much so. He's an awesome guy. Last year, I met him within 15 minutes. Him and I rolled for 45. Minutes straight. The first 10, he dominated me. Then the next 10, he more dominated me. And then in the end, he was playing. Just playing with me, sweeping me all over the place. And it was that smooth game. That very smooth game that you often don't find with Americans. Or even big Brazilians. But it was that smooth. Effortless, flowing game. Reminded me of John Jack Machado back in the olden days. It felt like you're grappling a ghost. Mendez brothers, last month, they both cleaned me up a half an hour each of them. It was that same smoothness. Plus, I'm older. There's my excuse in there. That's what I use all the time. Yeah. Age is a factor. I don't bend the way I used to. But you said you did a bunch of different martial arts. I did. So how about injury-wise? You felt you got less injured doing jiu-jitsu than Muay Thai and everything else? Absolutely. If you do the art, and by the art, I mean you try to control and submit your opponent using the least amount of strength, explosion, speed, and effort. That is the art. That is the art. How can I smoothly trap my opponent? In that approach, you get injured way less than, say, wrestling, which is very much about speed and explosion, which works really well, too. But the art of the jiu-jitsu, the art, not a sport athletic of it, but the actual art of it is that goal of trying to not use that stuff. Mm-hmm. Whereas the goal of... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The goal of Western wrestling is you use whatever it takes, speed, strength, explosion, boom, and go. And that's also an effective game. But there's something magic about that art of the jiu-jitsu that you feel when you grapple a really good jiu-jitsu guy. I like to think I have that. Sometimes I do. But I do have an American... I do have a lot of American wrestling bend in there, too. Right. And that's the athletic aspect of it. So based on that response, are you a big proponent of competitions? Or do you think competition... Because obviously the game, you're not going to be free-flowing and easygoing on a competition. You're going to smash and control and use muscle and strength and everything else you got to try to win, right? Yeah. And this is just my opinion. Humans compete. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. do. And sports without a competing, they lose reality. They, within about four years, it becomes eye gouging, groin grabs, street self defense. It gets weird. Sports keep the art honest. You don't have to not practice the art, nor do you have to compete in every competition. But sport will keep your art honest. It lets you know what really works against an unfamiliar opponent who really wants to win. And as long as you know that here's the sport and here's the art, you're okay. Would you agree too that it helps gauge, you know, your own growth and your own your own performance and stuff when you get outside the gym? Absolutely. And what I've learned is that it's not just about the sport. It's about the art. It's about the What I have found, you know, humans compete. And the guys that don't compete on the mat compete in other ways. Who's the better instructor? Who's the bigger school? Who has the biggest name? Who has the best videotape? Whereas the guys who are on the mat, it's cut and dry. The honesty is in competition. It keeps the art honest. I just found the people that aren't out there competing, they start competing in every other area. I laugh because that's actually the most honest comment I've gotten. But it's almost like the people that don't compete are too busy marketing themselves saying they are the best, but they're not competing to be the best. You see that a lot now with all these, you know, marketing employees out there. Everyone wants to be, you know, a millionaire. Everybody wants to be a millionaire. Yes. And, you know, the other thing that I think can really spoil any art, whether it's music, painting, martial arts, is greed. Because art comes from your soul. And once your goal now is money, you're kind of lost the source. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, I feel that way, too. When I started jiu-jitsu, it was like, you show up on the mat and it was kind of sink or swim, right? But I understand a lot of people that don't compete, it's not very good for the longevity of certain individuals to stay in the sport when it's sink or swim, right? But it seems you go places now and it's just like, hey, let's get a billion people in here and make money. I think, too, Carl, you and I are on the same page about that because we're students. We're not running a school. And, you know, when we get in the door to our gym, our passion really is to get on the mat. And I think that's a big part of it. I think that's a big part of it. We're not worried about who shows up today, who paid their bill, or any of those other things. We don't have that burden. Our burden, well, not even a burden, just our focus is just, you know, when are we going to get on the mat? Absolutely. And, you know, you see, I was lucky because when I worked my way up from white into brown belt, I was relatively poor. And Machado's were so cool that I barely paid anything. I helped out at the school and stuff. And I didn't realize that how many people they'd, in essence, scholarshiped until I was a black belt, started to instruct. And then I'm picking up their habits. And I'm like, oh, this dude's poor. He's really good. He can help me. You can train for free. And then I'm doing the same thing. And I'm like, wow, I just... I taught 15 guys and I made $18. And I think, you know, that kind of sucks. I got to make money at this thing. $300 in bills, right? Yeah. And so, you know, I think everything has a balance. And I understand if you have a school, you got a lease, you got rent, you got to make money and stuff. And I guess I'm lucky in the fact that I don't have a school. I have a garage. And I've got, I think I have 17, um, black belts that probably out of them, I think six have schools. Um, and I see that they go through money headaches a lot of times. And inevitably, that means the kids programs, which I have no interest in running a kids program. I love kids, but I want to teach people that have passion, who want to learn the art, not people, I have to say, pay attention. Now it's important that you learn. No, stop, stop, stop. Hey, stop screwing around over there. We're trying to learn an arm bar here. You know, I have no interest in that. I'm spoiled. Have you tried that before and just didn't work? I have. I have. And I do not like being the kids instructor. I love kids, but I don't want to run the kids program. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Takes a, I'm going to say, you know, like anything, it takes a special breed of runs with kids. Yeah. A special kind of patience. Yeah. You taught kid classes for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It's just different. Kids are different. But I, you know, we also did an interview with, uh, with Carlson Gracie Jr. a while back and he was just talking about how, like, when you have kids that, it's almost like they just got to play. You can't be that strict at about 14 or 15, kind of with what you're saying, where they're old enough to comprehend. I like teens. Yeah. I like teens. Yeah. But he was saying the same thing where like when they're kids, you just, you know, you get them involved so they can quote unquote like jujitsu, but you, you know, it's mostly for playing and stuff. And he said, he was saying that he didn't like teaching to them. They were like 14 or 15 and then they can comprehend what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Cause even, you know, uh, my own daughter, you know, I took her to class and, and, uh, was ready for her to, you know, to get out there and do her thing. And she did a couple classes and, uh, unfortunately, you know, uh, she just, just got spooked by one of the coaches, you know, she wanted, he wanted her to do the technique properly and, and, uh, she kind of got turned off to the sport because she just, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think it can. And a lot, you know, kids are, uh, can change so much. Like you can be six years old and have no interest in sports and be eight years old and that's all you want to do. Yeah. You know, so it's, it, it is a hit and miss and there's no, you know, I actually, I, uh, began what I believe was the first woman's class in the West coast back when I was a brown belt. And that was an awesome experience. Because I taught a lot of girls, you know, who didn't have a lot of strength and all that stuff and were smaller and I'm a lightweight, but they were smaller than me. And so it is like, that really helped me to explain the art of, um, but jujitsu, which is leverage and not speed and strength. And, you know, in my class was, you know, a, a, a lot of the girls who ended up being first American women, black belts were in that group. And, um, yeah, it was a great class and a really, but a good experience in how to instruct this as an art and not just an athletic. Or really get the true meaning of the art, the way that Gracie's wanted to teach it, which was the premise, big guy, you know, little guy takes on the big guy. Exactly. So you're saying it's the hormones that make men crazy. Probably. That's true. So what, what about, what about all this stuff going on with like juicing in this board? What's your take on that? Oh boy. Um, hot seat time, right? This is just my personal opinion. Again, humans compete and the goal is win. And the goal is win within the rules of the game. And if you cheat on the rules of the game, do it without being caught. And if juicing is going to help you win, I am never shocked that in all sports people are juicing because people want to win. It gives you that edge. Yup. Right. If it's out there, someone's going to, someone's going to use it. There are infantry units overseas who are juicing because it's going to keep them alive. Yup. Yup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Uh, I, I know that, you know, it's been a big subject, I guess more maybe because they're talking about testing for it and, um, maybe because they're, you know, the sport is looking to, I guess, um, become an Olympic sport, you know, I guess they're trying to, you know, Yep. Yep. I guess that's why it's such an issue. And then too, you know, everyone's seen it in MMA, you know, people like Cyborg, which, well, that was an obvious one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's one of those things. The only, the guys who get caught are abusers. The users never get caught. And I'm not going to say what percentage I think it is out there, but. Right. There's arguments either way. Arguments to say that it's perfectly safe. You're not going to get a minimal side effect. And then there's other arguments to say it's the worst thing for you. There are just so many opinions out there, you know. You know, it's like a pot and drugs. You know, there's people who think marijuana is the most coolest, naturalest thing in the world. Uranium is natural. Hurricanes are natural. It'll kill you. You know, I'm not for or against pot. But, you know, I don't think because. Because something's natural means it's healthy. Right. And I don't think that because it's man-made, it means it's unhealthy either. And I think all drugs can be a good thing. All things in moderation, including moderation. Sometimes you've got to just fucking go off. Yeah. Or you can drink too much water and you can die, you know. Right. I always tell people too much of anything is poison. Yeah. Like religion, alcohol, anything. Like money. Yeah. I always tell people too much. Much of anything is poison, regardless of what it is. Right. I think so. Or you let it control you. You let it take over your life. Just like, you know, any vice is going to catch up with you. I do like that comment, though. So when people say I only smoke marijuana because it's natural, I'm going to go smoke some uranium. Yeah. And smoke it every day. Yeah. Right. But kind of to go back a little bit, you talked about the first. Let's keep talking about drugs. No, I'm kidding. We talked about the first evolution. With Rio. What was the next part to that? There was what I call the Rio explosion. And then there was the outsiders game explosion. The wrestling influence, the Sambo affluence, and other cultures that had other grappling styles. That was one of the next big evolutions that I observed within the sport and in the game. And now getting to the latest explosion. The latest explosion. Now, here's what happens when you're my age. I don't even know what music's cool anymore. Right? All the stuff you listen to is coming back. Probably is, yeah. Well, you know, I hear the same. I hear stuff on the radio and, like, the young kids are like, that's cool. I'm like, dude, that's like Madonna's song from, like, 1985. Yeah, yeah. The guy just put new lyrics to it. And old Jits comes back. You know, old moves. That we weren't using for a while because everyone had them down. Now they're kind of coming back in with kind of a little bit new of a twist. But what's also really changed, what I observed, is, and this started happening, and it might be a result of MMA as well, is it became a lot more acrobatic. It was, like, about the most acrobatic move back in, like, 88. Would you? Yeah. I mean, it was, like, the most acrobatic move back in, like, 88. I mean, it was, like, the most acrobatic move back in, like, 88. Jitsu was the handstand pass or a cartwheel pass. Right. Now it's become a lot more acrobatic and agile. And that I have noticed as well, too. Or things like, you know, like the deep half guard and other things. Yep, yep. Or the triple salchow knee on belly. No, I'm just kidding. I just made that up, dude. Don't forget the San Paolo approach to passing the guard, neither. Yeah. There's so many different things. And, you know, too, the MMA thing, you know, I always say MMA has been the best thing and the worst thing that ever happened for the art of jiu-jitsu. It's been the best thing and the worst thing. It's kept it honest, which is a good thing. It's blown it up. Everybody goes, oh, but jiu-jitsu. But it's like, still, if you say, oh, I do jiu-jitsu, most people in their minds imagine you with no shirt, veins popping out of your neck, ground and pounding a guy. And that's not but jiu-jitsu. That's MMA. You know what I'm saying? There's a couple photos. I think you've seen those, too, Krell. Yeah, I think I have. It says, like, what my mom... Yeah. Yeah, that is hilarious, isn't it? And it's so true, though. It is so true. Yeah, the jiu-jitsu one is pretty funny, actually. Or people, when they ask, oh, so you're still training UFC? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Or as my brother would say, do you still train tap-out? You know, because, you know, years ago, he'd see me wearing a tap-out shirt, and he just picked up. And now you never wear a tap-out shirt, huh? Not anymore. See, not anymore either. Because now it's the MMA fan gear. Yeah. Wow. But back, like, I remember back in the olden days, like, Charles handed me, like, 20 shirts. I was heading over to Europe, and they went like hotcakes because I could only pack them and stuff. And it was like the only other grapplers knew what that meant. And then, you know, it blew up, which is cool that it blew up. Or even before that, if you had a pair of the bad boy, like a bad boy logo. Oh, the bad boy phase. Yep, I remember that. That's cool. So you're saying they should bring back old-school jiu-jitsu and bring back those thick Krugans, too, huh? I remember the old Krugans. And the Howard Combat kimonos. And the big, thick Howard armor. I remember. Armor. Yeah. How thick was that lapel? Oh, it was huge. I think it was the 95 Pan Ams, 94 maybe, in Hawaii. A guy started. I'm watching a match, a black belt. They stopped the match. One guy's yelling, complaining. I'm squinting a lot. Like, what's going on over there? They opened the guy's collar, and he'd sewn in there a steel cable in his collar. It was unchokeable. I mean, the absolute unchokeable gi. Wow. And I'm really glad that IBJ, but JF, as I believe, who said, you know what, guys, enough of this armor gis. Gis with the choke-proof collar. Because it ruins the actual art. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And if the art is supposed to mimic the reality of a one-on-one brawl in the street, people don't wear jackets that thick. They don't wear choke-proof hoodies. So it becomes an unrealistic thing having these jackets that are choke-proof. I hate them. I hated it back then. Yeah. I actually never heard of that, really. That's kind of crazy. Oh, yeah. God, it was. I've heard, like, one of my instructors, John, always tell me, like, people wouldn't wash their gis, and they'd spit in them and, like, blow their nose in their gis. They would do some of that stuff, too. You know, in the early days, and I'm not sure if it's because there just weren't washing machines in Brazil, but we would hang them up and hose them down and dry them. And out here, we have such hard water, the gis would be so stiff. And, God, you'd get some razor burns with those things going across your neck and face. You can still do that now if you hang dry your gis. At least I feel it. Like, when I dry with a softener sheet, you know, like, it feels all good. Yeah. I haven't been trained enough to remember one of those really heavy, heavy gis, you know. We were lucky. We had gotten a gift of a new Howard kimono from Howard Liu. And, you know, it's a light, really light, beautiful gi, just like, you know, all the others that I own, you know, for training. But, yeah. Next month, I'm mailing you guys a magic kimono. It's invisible? It's magic. It is the magic kimono. Okay. You'll get one. Cool. I love that instructor parody or that parody that Ken Promola does where the guy's showing off his new gi, and he's like, oh, dude, this is just an old hand-me-down. And I don't, you know, this is all I got. And he just continues to choke the guy with his brand new gi. He's like, oh, yeah, that's a great gi. You know, he's just choking him with it. You know Ken Promola? I don't know him, but I know him. He called me a douche one time. Did he? Yeah. In jest. He called me a douche and then deleted me from his Facebook. Hmm. Because he... What were you probably trolling? No, no, no. He had posted something on his Facebook, and I said, hey, why don't you just go to your doctor and tell him you're... You're having a hard time sleeping and your testosterone's low. Ah. And he didn't like it. He didn't like it. So he called me a douche. Well, but Ken actually does a lot for the sport. I mean, with his videos and everything. I love his write-ups. I'm, you know, hooked on all of the stuff that he puts out and everything. And he actually trained with one of our instructors, you know, through our team, the head of our team, Rodrigo Maduro. He spent a little time with him. Yeah. Yeah. And he's been on Pacific Beach and, you know, we've communicated a couple times back and forth. So, yeah, how many of these... Well, I always... Two things I want to ask you about the BJJ Dirty Dozen. Okay. Okay. I'm all ears. Okay, so... I love these. How come they didn't do a Baker Dozen and include number 13 and 14? Because those guys are probably pissed. Oh, yeah. You know, this is my honest opinion on that whole thing. The reason why... And I believe I was the... Fifth American, a black belt. Now, there's some people who I've noticed who I remember when I was a black belt. They were brown belts still, but somehow they've kind of switched their numbers around. But I'm not going to say anything who... But... You sure? No. I think because it's one of those things where, you know, the honest... Honestly, I was in the right place at the right time. I happened to... A start... A start... In 88 in Horian's Garage when it was 20 bucks a private. So I was in the right place at the right time. And there was a lot of other guys who began and quit. And there were guys who didn't get black belts because of politics and personalities. And so, you know, it's... So I think it's really cool that I'm in that group. But I don't want to say there weren't other guys who I wish were in there as well. Who are just as good or maybe better. But they just didn't play the politics right at that time. You know? And it was some politics back then. It was... You know, there weren't a lot of schools. And there weren't a lot of organizations yet. And it was... I don't... I don't think that the people like my coaches were necessarily trying to produce the first American black belts. But after a couple were made, it was like all of a sudden I think people realized that it would be valuable to have been whoever made these black belts. So... And it's like I remember I didn't even really feel like a black belt until my first black belt match. Right. Right. Right. I won that match. And historically, I am the first American to have beaten a Brazilian black belt in a competition. And when they announced that match, you could hear a pin drop. And Hickson was the ref. And it was back when black belts had a match. No one yelled. It was quiet. It was like golf. Yeah. It was kind of cool. And I was scared shitless. And I won that fight. I think maybe they were thinking... Let's see if this American is really legit. Yes. And I couldn't have been more proud when Hickson raised my hand. You went by points, advantage. What was it? I was up by nine points and nine minutes in the fight I arm barred. So what was it? Ten-minute match, unlimited? Yep. Which one? Unlimited? No, ten-minute match. Oh, ten-minute match. Okay. Yep. And that was like everybody has their 15 minutes of fame. That was mine. I mean, that's a pretty good accomplishment though, right? Yeah. It's an amazing accomplishment. All the time you put in, right? It's a game. That was mine. Yep. And especially being your first match as a black belt. That was my first match as a black belt. And I didn't... And again, it's like I knew I was a blue belt. I knew I was a purple belt. I'd won some purple belt matches. I'd lost a few. I'd won some purple belt super fights. I knew I was a brown belt. Like, I really knew I was a brown belt. It was like when I was a purple belt for five years. I phenomed through white belt. Phenomed through blue belt. Purple belt and could not improve. Because that's the belt that is the, as I was explaining earlier off air, that's the man belt or the adult belt where it's like nothing gets handed anymore. It's not like, wow, this is a cool new move. Now it's going to change my whole game. It's like now it's hard work. It's like, how do I improve? The moves I know and stuff. But by the time I was a salty purple belt, that thing was falling apart. It was like, give me the brown belt. Fuck you very much. I'm a brown belt. But how did you know skill wise? Like, I know you know yourself better, but like, how did you know you went from purple to brown? What was the difference in your skill set? You know, I... Besides the five years, obviously. Let me use the analogy of water sports or swimming in the water. I don't know. Your white belt, you can't swim. I chuck you in a pool and you are struggling. Your extremities are flip-flopping around. You sink. I got to yank you out. A blue belt, you can swim, but now I put you in where it's nine feet. You can't touch. You're a little spooked. You'll still swim. I pull your head under on water. You resort back to white belt spaz out, right? Purple belt is when you're learning all the strokes. Bring you out in the ocean, big waves. You're awesome on the waves. You're held under. You start to resort back to a panic movement. You panic. The brown belt is the maturity belt. That's kind of that belt where you go from win, lose, or draw. You are always mature. You're always in the game. You're always in the fight. And it's like I think of how Hickson embodies that. I personally believe that if Hickson were ever in a match or a fight, if he were losing, in his mind, he would never be losing because mentally he knows he'll find a way out of this, will come back and win. And that's like my ideal. That's my ideal of a black belt. And that's what we all strive after in the black belt. And a brown belt's almost like a holding pattern, is can you stay mature enough and you get your black belt. That opens up a whole other thing where new black belts, I think every belt you go back over, kind of the same thing, like feeling a little bit unsure. You get unsure of yourself while you're in that belt. Then you learn, oh, I really am this belt. And now I got to own it and I got to improve it. I mature in it and I grow in it. And I have all my guys, including me, that whenever I give out a new belt or a black belt, a new stripe, I go back over as if I'm a white belt. Fundamentals. Act like I know nothing and relearn. Everything all over again. Right. And look, I'm sorry to interrupt. It looks like we have a call for you on the line. Okay. Hello, caller. Hello. Hey, what's up? This is Roy. Topia. I went in a few, I think last month I went in. Oh, what's going on, Roy? Thanks for calling. Hey, what's up? How are you guys doing? Good. How are you doing? Good. Good. I was just letting you guys know, reminding you guys I'm fighting next week at the Morongo Casino on Friday. Oh, okay. This is going to be a boxing event? Yeah, I believe it's going to be Friday Night Fights. Oh, okay. And you're going to be out there. Anyone else from your team or is it just going to be you? No, I think it's just me. I think one more guy. I think his name is, dang, I can't remember his name right now. Cool. Hey, be careful. That sport hurts. Yeah, hit that. Put that stuff up on our fan page, man, and we'll get it out there for you. Real quick, where can we get tickets? I think online at the Morongo web page or I believe there, too. Every time I go to fight at the Morongo, I always buy them there. All right. Well, boxing fans that are listening, make sure to, if you're going to want to take a trip or go out to Morongo, make sure we check out our boy. All right, bro. Definitely, definitely. All right, man. Thank you, guys. All right, man. Take it easy, buddy. All right. Bye. All right. Boxing guy. Boxing guy. I love boxers. Yeah. He's listening in, man, so that's good. Yeah. One of the guys that are sponsored by one of our friends on the show, Decomp Clothing. That's cool. Yeah. Right on. Well, it looks like we're coming close to the end. Wow. I wish we can go longer. Three minutes. But, yeah, go ahead. I just had a quick question. I didn't even have my whole philosophy out to you. I'm kidding. Can you do it in about a minute? No. Okay. So how many of these other 11 guys do you keep in contact with? You know, I would say out of them, there's probably three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three. Three or four that occasionally I'll talk to or run into. And, you know, again, that list of 12, I don't even know who's all exactly on that list. I know people who I consider to be my direct peers of that time. And, again, I really want to emphasize that there's guys that didn't get their belts out of personality and politics from the various schools at the time. And, but I think... And now... Oh, sorry. What happened? What happened? Oh, it looks like, I think we were... I don't know. What is that? Did we close the show already? No, I'm sorry. We got a couple minutes left. A couple minutes left. Live radio. That's how we do it. Yeah. All right. I mean, I got the list here for... Oh, we got a minute and a half. But, well, before we go, anyone out there that, you know, wants to get in touch with you, where can they find you? You know, I have a website, but I didn't make that website. And there's a couple things on there that drive me nuts. Like it says, Chris Howder invented the move, combat the base. I didn't invent that move. I coined that term because I didn't know how to speak Portuguese. So I called it a combat base. But combat base... But... But... But... Is my website. And it's got my email on there and all that stuff. And I will say that I made a goal years ago that when I'm 60 years old, I want to be grappling still, like Helio did and Carlos. Yeah. And I'm still on the mat. You know, I love grappling. And it's not who's good, it's who's left. Yeah. So anyone who's new, don't get hurt. Because injury is the plague of athletics. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Learn how to tap. Yeah. Learn how to tap. You think that's the biggest thing? Ego, right? Ego is the killer in all sports. And most of the guys I know who are like winning Abu Dhabi with golds and all that, they're humble guys. Yeah. You know? But the guys who win a lot usually are pretty humble guys. And again, you know, it's the guys who don't compete, I notice, are the ones who will hurt you. Yeah. I can agree with that. Yeah. You know? Well, you know, at some point you lose the finesse of the sport if you're just busy trying to win, right? Like. And, you know, I don't know if I believe in a karma in a scientific provable way, but there is something out there. And it's the guys who are always hurting guys are always the guys who are hurt, too.