Hello, this is Julianne Good and this is Psych One-on-One. Welcome. We are here to make psychology more understandable with tips for you and your family and friends to make your lives easier. So how are you doing tonight? I'm doing pretty good except we're freezing in the studio this evening. If I knew how to sing the words to Popsicle Toes, I'd be singing that right now. But anyways, I'm going to be doing a segment on business this evening and the psychology of business. I'm part leadership and I'm going to put my glasses on so I can read. They're always, always helpful. Tonight, my special guest is Stephanie Ardrey of Ardrey Group LLC from Newport Beach, California. Hi, Stephanie. How are you doing? I'm good, Julia. How are you tonight? I'm doing pretty decent other than freezing. Weather changing on all of us. Yes. Yeah. And the weather in the studio is particularly cold. Absolutely. Absolutely. So can you tell the listening audience a little bit about your background? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm lucky, I say, to wear a number of hats. Not only am I an entrepreneur running an early stage company again, I fall in that bucket of what they call serial entrepreneurs in that I've created multiple organizations over the last three decades in business. So either I created it and ran it or I stepped in to try to save another troubled organization or something along those lines. And a few years ago, I was asked to try my hand at teaching. So I'm also now an adjunct part-time professor at a couple of universities, which I tell you is a lesson in learning within itself. I bet. You learn so much from that. I'm a student. And then I think the other major leadership role in life is that of being a parent. So I'm the proud mom of a teenager. So, you know, again, another example of places where you exist. And the momager, if you will, of my son's acting career, he's been a SAG actor since he was four. Oh. So in that case, we have a dual relationship, a business relationship, as well as a parent and child. And so we have a child relationship. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. You've never told me about that. We'll have to talk about that more off the air. But yeah, that's incredible. You definitely wear multiple hats. Yes. Yes. Sometimes I think I wear them better than others. You know, there's oftentimes where you have these little crunch times. That's what I've been feeling of late, a little bit of a crunch time. But usually it works really well to have a number of things going on to feed off of one another. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In your opinion, are leaders born or are they developed? Great question. I actually think it's a little bit of both. I think that some people are born with natural leadership tendencies. And so you'll see that if you look at if you ever have an opportunity to observe little preschoolers, for instance, there'll be someone who's ready to take the lead of the class, the assignment, or even on the playground. You know, there's one little kid that tries to assert themselves, and then you may find some kids who are a little naturally a little more reserved. So that's part of that, you know, natural, those natural tendencies. But then also I think you really develop your leadership skills, one, through education and the process of evolving, by having experiences where you, you know, oftentimes I'll talk about leadership in the context of leadership. It's not. It's not just about so-called leadership, but do you understand followership? So, you know, what does that mean in terms of being able to be on a team where you are not so-called positional leadership? You're not in the role of the leader because of your position, but you're on the team and you need to follow the leader. So there are opportunities, you know, lessons learned in those roles as well. Yeah, and you're right about teamwork. You really have to be able to take on both roles. So you have to vacillate in between being a leader and a follower and knowing when to switch gears. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think of times where sometimes in an organization there might be a conflict or a situation, and, you know, sometimes you have to sit back and let the situation evolve or sort of settle before you decide to make a particular move. You know, I think of this in the context of... I was in a political organization where I was on staff. I was in a senior-level position, but I wasn't the leader of the department. And the leader of the department was demonstrating some difficulty with completing a huge project. And I realized that, you know, the politically correct thing to do, you know, perhaps may have been to kind of sit on the sideline because it was not going to affect me per se. Okay. But I felt that I could make a difference. So I did a sidebar, and I sort of did something that, you know, they say, be careful if you do this because it could come back and bite you in the butt. But I basically went over, you know, the directors of this department, he was the VP, over his head to the president and said, listen, it looks like this problem is not going to go away unless somebody steps up and resolves, you know, takes charge of the problem. And I believe that I can, but I need you to give me the authority to do so. And I said, but what I'll do... I will do it in such a way that this, you know, VP will not feel like I've, you know, basically, you know, land blasted or run past him in order to make something happen. And then if I need support, there's an outside consultant that I'd like to be able to use for that support. And I was granted that authority. Ultimately, it wasn't significant for the organization because I was able to save a million-dollar cost overrun. That's great. By doing so. But, you know, it was a risky proposition to say, you know, the person that should be in charge is really not capable of leading or, you know, making the difference in this case. And I'm going to step out here on behalf of the team, believing that if the organization won, that we all won, rather than being willing to take a loss just because the wrong person was in position. Right. And that's a really delicate balance. When you're in situations like that, to say, okay, do I just go with the status quo and not say anything and just wait for somebody else possibly to stand up and say something? Or do I go in there because I know if my suggestion is going to be correct, it's going to be incorporated and it is the way that you approach that situation. You can't just go in there and go, okay, you're wrong. I'm right. I know. That is not. Not going to work. Believe me, I've learned that mistake several times in my life. So. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a delicate dance. Yeah, it absolutely is. It absolutely is. Yeah. So then, you know, how do you approach a situation like that when you are presented a corporate problem and you need to be the leader of sorts and go up to the power? Yeah. And then you take those roles that be and say, okay, you know, can I have a minute of your time? I mean, how did you do that? Yeah. So what I did was we sat through a few meetings and it seemed that, you know, each week, one, we were losing time. So if there was going to be an opportunity to address the problem, time was critical. We needed any, you know, all the time that we had because there was a firm deadline that if the issues were not resolved by this. state, that was it. It was going to cost another million dollars, no ifs, ands, and buts about it. And so what I realized was a real, there was a heated environment. I would describe the environment as, you know, in a male-dominated industry where I felt like the guys would have gone to, come to blows if I were not in the room. So they were behaving in gentlemanly ways because you were present. That's nice. Exactly, exactly. But, you know, this beating the table or yelling, you know, sometimes I said it sounded like somebody was being slammed up against the wall in the boardroom. So, you know, all of those emotions were very strong and present in the space. And after about two of those meetings, I just, I had enough. And I just said, you know, you're my man. It's really opportunities like this. I pride myself in being able to have a level head in chaos. So I just felt like this was going to be that opportunity that I came forward and, you know, grabbed the bull by the horn and just took a chance to make something happen. And I felt like I didn't have anything to lose on one hand. Or I could sit there and just watch this, you know, scene replay every week. Every week as we had these department meetings. And it just didn't seem like we were going in the right direction. So it was risky. But I think what I did is now once I had the ear of the president, I could have easily had an attitude about that. And I could have behaved. I could have behaved in such a way to the VP where he felt threatened because now I had the ear of, you know, the division leader. But I chose not to, you know, behave in such a manner. Really it was about the team. And so it wasn't, I didn't act as if there was any sort of ego involved. Because it wasn't. It really was about we had a problem. And I felt that I was really skilled. And capable of solving the problem. So in other words, you took it from the arena of looking at the problem and dissecting it from that point. And taking the emotionality of it. Is that correct? Yes. That would be a great summary. Yes. It's absolutely. Removed all of the emotions and really focused on what should we accomplish in this limited amount of time. And let's focus on accomplishing that goal. That's a great way of looking at it, Stephanie. Because I think a lot of times when people look at a problem, somehow they make it an emotional investment. And some part of them is like, you know, I've got to win at this because I really believe in this issue or this problem that has to be solved. And they attach themselves to this. You know, and I think that's where it starts getting really muddy and murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. Murky. And solving that problem. You know, you're right, Julianne. It's true because that happens, I think, oftentimes. You know, think of going into a brainstorming session. So it's always important, I say, with leading any team to set up the ground rules and then also establish the criteria. And once you establish the ground rules and the criteria for the project or the problem at hand, then creating, if you will, a conversation, a safe space where people are able to contribute their thoughts, then at the end, we're able to evaluate those possible recommendations against the criteria. And so, you know, constantly guiding the conversation with, listen, it's not personal. It's not your idea or her idea or his idea. It is. And so, you know, we have to have these possible solutions evaluated now against this particular criteria. And now that we look at all of the ideas, which of these solutions are going to work best with addressing this particular set of problems against this criteria? So it's not personal. It's all about what it is, you know, what's the best solution. And then even having that conversation with people in conflict management. You know, you have to. And so, you know, you have to allow people to make sure that they correct their vocabulary because at the time you might feel very emotionally, you know, angry at the person, but you need to separate their behavior from them as an individual so that hopefully you can work on, I do not like this behavior. Right. And not, you know, that I want to throw you out the window, but I don't like this behavior. I do not appreciate it in this circumstance. So let's work on this behavior. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. but the behavior is not acceptable. Right. So deconstructing it in that manner, it sounds like you're really trying to pull people's egos aside. Is that right? Yes, you hit it right on the head. So I used to tell people, I said, imagine this. You go into an organization. You're put in a leadership position. The team that you're leading has been working together for about 20 years. They look at you like you're not even old enough to be in the room. You're the only woman ever on the deal team. Everybody at the table is either a multimillionaire or a billionaire. Oh, a little intimidating. And it's the boys club. Oh, yeah, that's just a little intimidating, Stephanie. And you need to come in and whip them all into shape, right? Wow. That takes some ballsiness, honestly. I can't think of any other. By the way, guys, I'm not here. Yeah, and by the way, guys, I'm not here to take your notes or get your coffee. Or clean your toilets. Thank you. You know, you figure those things out on your own. You're not here for any of those things. Exactly. Secretarial work is out. Yes, yeah. So what factors do you think contribute to the development of leadership? So some of it is, again, gaining that. So I like to, it's interesting because I've learned over the years of using, so many different tools. So when I did my graduate studies, I went off, I guess, what would say the traditional path of doing a traditional MBA for business and said, huh, I really want to add some additional tools to my toolbox. So I focused on organizational development with an emphasis on leadership. And the leadership piece was really critical because I recognized a couple of trends, and that being that women were going to continue to enter the workforce. And the roles were going to ultimately begin to change because women have, you know, gained advanced education. So it's going to be impossible to keep them in, you know, administrative roles indefinitely. They've got to advance up, you know, the corporate food chain. And so when you look at some of the wonderful work that's been done, some of the things that I think of are the initially being exposed to, like Myers-Briggs and kind of, understanding how that gives a perspective on maybe some of your leadership style. And can you explain to the audience what Myers-Briggs is? Yeah, so it's one of the popular personality assessments. Humantrix administers the assessment, and what's allowed is you're able to get your type, your preferences, or your leanings, and it gives you a few different qualifications in terms of those leanings. And what's valuable is if you're working in a team and you're understanding maybe the differences. I'll tell you, something emerged when I redid. The Myers-Briggs, for me, I discovered that my – I decided to do my son and discovered that in his personality and my personalities, I think I'm INTJ and he's ENFJ, and I'll have to circle back to kind of give you the meaning of the types. But in our types, the T for me, the thinking, and the F for him is more of a, and I think that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to do the thinking, and the F for him is more of a, and between those two, when I communicate something to him, if I communicate it from my thinking mode, it would land very harsh for him. So it had a lot to do with not the message, the – not changing the message, but changing the delivery of the message. Right, that's critical. Yeah, and the interesting thing, in Myers-Briggs, I believe you can go to – you can just Google it and take at least an initial test on what your personality type is and what your traits are. And it is very fascinating to find that you lean more towards maybe being an intuit or a thinking type versus a feeling type, and then being able to go with that. And it's also important to learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure that you learn how to make sure can sit there and be a little more flexible and working with the team and say, yeah, okay, well, that's a great idea. And then some people are like going, no, I want to challenge that. Then they always want to rebel against what the team is going against. I think with that Myers Briggs, it brings a little more of what you are naturally to the table because it's a really easy test, which I love. It gets just the basics down. Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just discussing how you focus or how you take on information, how you process the information. Exactly. And Stephanie, we're going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Okay. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerology, psychology, and psychology. We offer numerous psychology, behavioral, and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses, Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, D.C., and online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health needs of society through classroom experience and real-world training. The Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit thechicagoschool.edu. And thank you to the Chicago School of Professional Psychology for sponsoring Psych One-on-One. And this is Julianne Good, and I am back with Stephanie Ardrey, and we are talking about the psychology of business leadership this evening. And Stephanie, what do you think defines great leadership versus mediocre leadership? So, a lot of it has to do with understanding relationships. We talk about, we had a brief conversation the first time we chit-chatted about the value of emotional intelligence and how that would impact an environment, or if you think about what organizations are faced with presently, you have multiple generational cohorts all working together, attempting to coexist in organizations these days. And so, I think that's a really important part of the conversation. And I think that's a really important part of the conversation. And I think that's a really important part of the conversation. And I think it's not unusual to find someone still part of the silent generation. You know, baby boomers are beginning to retire. You have the Gen Xs, Gen Ys, Millennials. And then you have even veterans returning. In some cases, some may even have, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder and having to then have all of these cohorts exist within an organization. Added to the fact that there's a lot of many organizations are also going through the process of globalization. So now, not only are the dynamics looking at the various cohorts, but you need to have teams capable of understanding multiculturalism, you know, multilingual teams, multi-ethnic, multi-racial. And so, all of these factors then are part of what makes up, one, the dynamics of the team, and then how leadership evolves in that space. Because it has different meanings. You know, you can look at where, how socialization in different cultures, you know, determines who should be a leader. You have some cultures that it's male, it's by gender. So the gender determines if it is you're able to assume a leadership role. But then, you're looking to do business with someone else, and it's a different experience. So, you know, all of these things, are going on. And so, in order to be an effective leader, you have to be willing to not only understand who you are in the role of leadership, so that personal self-awareness is critical. And then also, what you're looking to accomplish within that organization or in the relationships, where you are either put in a position of positional leadership, or you're just on the team, and you may have, um, a formal responsibility that is leadership. Right. So you really have to be super flexible in order to be a great leader. And you have to know so many different dynamics, as you stated before. It's, the world is getting more complex, and you're correct on the globalization assessment. It's, you know, it's like having to, keep your education up to a certain degree. You know, do your, your self-learning on the side while you are running a business. It sounds like a 24-7 job, really. Well, you know, what you probably have noticed, you see the growth in the space of coaching, executive coaching, not only for managers, up and coming managers, you know, many of the major organizations will identify their leadership role, but also for the wordsets. Exactly. So it's a metaphor of a coach. Exactly. So it's a metaphor of a coach. Exactly. So it's a metaphor of a coach. Exactly. So it's a metaphor of a coach. So it's a metaphor of a coach. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Strength Finders 2.0, it's one of those that is managed by the Gallup organization. The book was written by Tom Rath. And what I love about Strength Finders was there was research done. You know, people talk about their respective strengths and weaknesses. And so this idea of should I spend time working on building up my weaknesses or would it be better to focus on what's identified as my strengths? Well, the study results determined that it was better to spend time working on the strengths and that if you focused on the strengths, they would develop exponentially as opposed to the time that you would spend. And trying to work on weaknesses and those weaknesses would never gain a similar level of development. And so the Strength Finders has been really great. It's one of those whenever I'm pulling together teams, I'll recommend, listen, buy the books, 20 bucks, invest in yourself, you know, take the assessment and get an understanding of what your core strengths are and then look at how you can further develop those strengths. And then bring those strengths. And then bring those strengths to the table and let's all grow together. It's like brief psychotherapies are trying to do the same goals. Let's look at your strengths because as those grow, your weaknesses will just start dissipating on their own. They'll just go to the background. You don't need to deal with those anymore. I mean, of course, every once in a while things are going to come up and you have to deal with them. But you've got... You have that core to work on and work with and bring and everybody benefits from it. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's interesting because I... There was an article put out by ASTD, the Association of Training and Development, and they just summarize what they identified as frontline leaders. So... So leaders who were in the beginning entering their management career. And what they determined was that there were kind of the key industries that they used this study came from about 13% represented either finance or insurance. 9% represented manufacturing. What they discovered is 49% of these organizations operate nationally. But listen to this. 20% of them are multinational firms. 32%... Of them are now global firms. And what they discovered through this survey was that, unfortunately, 50%, 55% of these organizations are not really conducting organizational-wide talent assessment. And so what they realized is that only 25% of the group are gaining some type of leadership skills specifically. So it's aajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaj push for yourself and push for your own education and learning and training. You have to go beyond the comfort zone. Absolutely. Yeah. So you have to have this hunger, this ongoing desire to want to grow and evolve. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, most definitely. I think that's a good lesson for all of us. We, especially nowadays and with the economy, you know, doing this rollercoastering still. I mean, it's getting a little more stable from what I've heard from the news. And we'll see what happens in 2015. I think we are all crossing our fingers and putting in a lot of prayers that things, the economy starts stabilizing and we can, you know, start getting decent paying jobs again. But it's funny that you mentioned that because I think it'll stable, but it's a new normal. Yes. So sometimes when I hear people, especially when we've talked about the impacts of the Great Recession, it's as if this idea is that, you know, things will go back to how they were before. And unfortunately, that's not really, you know, a realistic expectation. What's going to happen is that there's a new normal. And the new normal is dynamic and, you know, on a path towards continual evolution. Because when you look at all of the different variables that contribute to what creates a dynamic business environment, so it's not only the social impacts and some of the variables that I mentioned from globalization, the technology continues to evolve. Think about that. Think about technology for just a small example, for a small instance. Technology is so beneficial with allowing us to have access and connection with, you know, anyone. We can connect around the planet. But at the same time, technology relied upon an extreme. We see examples of, you know, you go out lately to a restaurant and you notice you have a bunch of teenagers, someone sitting at the table and everybody's on their device. No one's engaged in a conversation. Yes. Or try this. They're texting one another instead of using their voice, you know, around the table. And that's the conversation. I know. That's incredible. For me, that's disturbing, actually. And I think one of the things, too, is people walking around and they're texting and they're walking across streets and they're not really paying attention to what's around them. I think that's a little frightening. But, yeah, the technology, right, I mean, it's here to stay. Absolutely. And it's going to evolve. What is that going to do to our relationships with each other? And we still have to talk. We still have to communicate. That is one of the utmost parts of being. Being a healthy human being is learning how to connect with another person. And, you know, that requires listening skills. It does. And so what we find is it seems both there's a lack of patience and it's a lack of willingness to listen, to be present to someone. Yeah. So what do we do on that? I mean, I find, too, and I have found this in business meetings. When one person is talking, another person is just ready to jump in and state their opinion. Or, you know, and how do you stop that? It's just like all this verbal mush getting into the way. And, you know, how do you pull apart that so that everybody can have their say and feel like they have been heard? And so that's a great example of where so whoever. Yeah. Facilitating that meeting or that gathering. It's really dependent upon that person to have the skills but also to recognize really their role in trying to facilitate some of that communication. So kind of going back to that where we set the ground rules, but then we also attempt to engage all of the participants. You know, one, creating a clearing, you know, a safe space for the communication. And then even, you know, asking someone to pause. Pause for a second. Pause and reflect before you jump in with the answer. Make sure that you've listened to what's being stated before you are all ready to jump in with an answer. Right. And then one of the rules, of course, is turn off your devices and put them out of your outreach. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. But it's so bad. And I don't know if they did this just for TV purposes, but I happened to one day catch. A brief segment of the Steve Harvey show. And there was this couple, relatively newly married within the last couple of years. And their idea was that they had lost the ability to communicate because they were texting one another. They could be at home. He's in one room in the living room. She's in the next room and he's texting her. Could you do this? Could you do that? And so anyway, they did an intervention and took away their technology. I think it was for 24 hours. And it's so amazing because during the first hour, they didn't know what to do. They were literally lost. They didn't know what to say. Like they really had to work to figure out what to do. Well, we want to go here, but if I have my phone, I could figure out what restaurant is around. It's like, no, you have to. How did you figure it out before you had your phone? Exactly. Oh, that's right. You have to open your mouth and make sounds. And you have to walk around. Yeah, exactly. And you have to look. Yeah, so you have to connect. So ultimately, at the end of the segment, they both realized that they had to set some ground rules in their home and that they had to connect with one another and turn off the phone, you know, turn it off. And I'm good for that. You know, people will say, well, I tried to call you, whatever, and I said, my device is not on 24-7. Exactly. You need to shut off. You need to. You need to unwind from that technology addiction. And there's so many people that are, they don't realize that they've got, it is an addiction. They have to feel like they're connected all the time. And then you have to ask the reason why. Why do I need to be connected 24-7 to the outside world? And sometimes it's just maybe a fear of knowing yourself, of just listening to the voice inside of you. And that's so essential. Everybody needs to do that. Yeah. Yeah. We are experiencing that you see the heightened stress. And so people bring that stuff to work as well. Yes. I find it amazing that, you know, there's a lack of immediate correlation to this constant being on and connected to. I've seen an increase of younger folks dying off, you know, folks in their, you know, 40s, 50s. Really. Having a significantly reduced lifespan because they can't manage the stress of it all. Of the all-consuming 24-7 lifestyle, you know, responding to these various demands. No, you need to decompress somehow. Exactly. That's important for all of us. Absolutely. And we are going to decompress with a commercial and a nice music break here. And Stephanie, I'd like to come back. And talk some more about emotional intelligence. Okay. Are you searching for answers and insight to life issues? Is the behavior of family or friends questionable or concerning? Find tips and possible solutions from the convenience of your own PC, cell phone, or tablet at therapycable.com. Therapy Cable has the most comprehensive library of contemporary therapy videos online. Help may be as easy as a few clicks away. Therapy Cable offers comprehensive therapy videos, ranging from addiction to self-care, and contact information for qualified providers. Find the answers to your life challenges at www.therapytable.com. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. more and that's Daniel Goleman's work, correct? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And so he, you know, he talks about some of the situations that people find themselves in and being able to have a well-developed, well-developed emotions. So one, being able to understand that you have emotions and that they show up. As I say, sometimes you attempt to hide your emotions and they emerge at the most inopportune time. So it's, you know, better to understand and deal with them. But, you know, how do you deal with them if it is that you've been hiding what you're feeling? You know, people talk about, well, somebody, you know, you look at people's personalities and, oh, whenever we hear about a tragic occurrence, workforce or something, it's like, well, that person, they seem to be so, so nice, so quiet. Um, they didn't seem to have any problem with anyone. You know, the neighbors, oh, yeah, they look like such a quiet person. Um, but clearly there's something going on, right? Something brewing underneath, yes. Something brewing underneath. And for whatever reason, the person didn't have or didn't feel that they had an opportunity to bring voice to whatever it was that was concerning them until they couldn't manage it any longer. And so it's at that point that then... And, you know, you see these extremes. So how do we, uh, embrace our understanding in, in a work environment? Um, for instance, uh, I think of not only the emotional and intelligence work, but also, um, Ronald, uh, Heifetz, uh, authored a book, Leadership Without Easy Answers. And he talks about in this book about creating what's called, uh, a holding environment. And it's taken from psychology in a sense of that you create this safe space, but then applied in work or business settings where there has been some type of significant, uh, trauma or that has contributed to stress. And he, uh, uses the example of just even how this was applied following the Great Depression, uh, in that, how President Roosevelt used the programs of the New Deal to kind of create this social holding environment so that the nation could recover from the impacts of the Great, um, Depression. I guess if we were to take that analogy forward, I would say that some of the major bailouts that were announced and used, um, by President Obama, uh, during this most recent Great Recession were designed to, you know, create that space. And so I think that's a great, uh, way to go about it. I think that, you know, we all have that sense of, uh, holding pattern because without some type of intervention, governmental intervention, the financial markets were, were on the verge of collapse. And we couldn't have that type of emotional, uh, wound, you know, and, and allow people to, you know, believe that the possibility of rebound could happen. You know, it was just so devastating. You know, I think of those of us that know, um, great grandparents or grandparents that may have lived through the Great Depression. It's informed how they behaved. They had very little trust of banks, of financial institutions. So imagine kind of going through your life and then you were forced to interact with organizations. So say, you know, that generation, maybe the silent generation that lived through the Great Depression, they don't like, and they don't trust banks. But then today, because of technology, we really are, society using, you know, electronic banking. And let's not talk about digital currency, right? This would bring just all kinds of additional stress to their psyche because they can't reconcile, you know, the concerns that they may have about these changes. And so when you think about that as it relates to work environment, it's really, you know, the same thing. Whenever there is a, you know, people don't make a difference. They don't make a difference. They don't make a difference. People come to work and people bring their stress with them. And so the benefit of creating this safe space is that it doesn't eliminate the stress, but it allows, you know, the stress can sometimes be the precursor to beginning that adaptive type of work that needs to take hold, take shape. A lot of times it's an indication that there is something going on that needs to be addressed, but we need to put it in a safe space. We need to stop, you know, create a holding space so that we can properly address the matters at hand and engage everyone. People can't make meaningful decisions when they're operating from fear. Exactly. Or the stress is too intense. Right. And you're right. I mean, and there's more sound judgment. There's more sound judgments that are made if a person is honest with themselves. If they get to that point where they feel like they're going to explode or, and hopefully people don't get to that point where it's like they're up against a wall and they don't feel like they have too many choices. At least nowadays, I think there are more employee assistance programs in place, at least with the major corporations that the employees can call up anonymously. And say, hey, you know what? I'm having problems at work and I'm having problems at home and these are, this is how it's intersecting and I need to have somebody to talk to. Yeah. It's, it's, it's helpful. Many of the organizations have definitely recognized the need to step up and provide those types of solutions. I think where we see it probably, again, it's a little bit more pronounced because, again, we've been in war and so when you think of, you know, our veterans coming home and needing to engage and I remember being a part of the university and we were looking at ways to empower these veterans and basically created a special support, you know, location and space, even space, because we realized a couple things that there was this need to be in sort of a shared conversation and that, you know, as a veteran having had whatever, you know, experience, there was some healing that could begin if you could have that conversation with someone else who really understood what you'd experienced. And then from there beginning to bridge that gap of conversation to maybe other civilians. But initially having that space to be fully self-expressed to try to process, reconcile what, what you, you may have experienced while away at war. Mm-hmm. You know, or the fact that you managed to survive and maybe, you know, members of your platoon did not. Right. And then, you know, bringing that back too into the business world and taking into consideration how many micro traumas people go through that they don't even register as that. They just, you know, they know it bothers them somewhat, but they don't really process it. And then it's, and then the mountain starts building from there. You know, I think I see that happening more often nowadays. Would you agree? I agree. And I think it's a combination of if, if we're spending more time on the gadgets, think of the loss of communication, right? Someone sends you an email and you don't have the opportunity to see their non-verbal. You're just looking at the text. And that's an easy way to miscommunicate. But if that continues and you never bring voice to that conversation, you know, if you've had the opportunity to engage in a personal conversation and you kind of got established some type of understanding of this person, you know, their mannerisms and so on and so forth, then they send you an email and you go, hmm, that seemed a little bit, you know, strong or, you know, maybe that's not the case. Maybe that landed wrong for me. Because you have the prior relationship, you're willing to kind of check in with the person and go, hey, you know, it looks like that email came across a little strong. I mean, what were you, what's going on? But if you don't have that relationship, then it's, you know, how dare this person send this, you know, take this tone with me. Or if you've ever received an email where someone's typing in all capital, you know, why are you yelling at me in an email? Oh, yeah. In a threatening manner. Yes. In a threatening manner. Exactly. So I'm going to get you. Exactly. I know. So misperceptions happen via texting and email, everybody. And you can put your own spin on it, but you're right, Stephanie. You have to go and clarify that eventually with another person. Talk to them, hopefully in person, and get the nonverbals down also, because nonverbals can communicate so much more than words can sometimes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. experience. So Stephanie, as we are winding down, is there anything else that you would like to add? I think you've taken us on a nice little conversational journey. As have you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. And can you tell the listening audience a little bit about your business before we close? Oh, sure. Yeah. So I have two companies and one focus is to really help to put companies on the path to hyper growth. And so within that emphasis on hyper growth, it's one in helping companies that are small to medium-sized organizations that in some cases are really teeing up for an exit. So if the organization is led by boomers and they're planning their retirement, our goal is to get in early enough and start addressing what opportunities are necessary. So that that business is able to trade at a certain value. But layer two of that is, what about the dynamics within the organization? Meaning, if I'm buying a business, I'm buying the business and it's going to have certain employees. How are those employees experiencing the possible change of leadership of the organization being sold? So really looking at not only just the top and bottom line results of the financial transaction, but the organization. And then the organizational implications to make sure that that business is actually healthy enough to trade and still remain sustainable for the new owners in terms of going forward. And then the second company has really been in the space of working with early stage companies, helping them get to market, to capitalize and build their appropriate leadership teams. And so again, recognizing the importance of the right team players on your bench and how you cultivate that team. And take a business that's really uncertain because it's new, it doesn't have all the infrastructure that an existing organization might. So how do you build upon that organization and pull together the right teams, realizing that some folks may have to be moved out of their position? And in some case, it might be the president or CEO, the founder may have to be the person that's moved out of position because as business gets traction and attempts to grow, that might not be the right person to lead the organization. So I think that's a really important part of the organization through those next phases of evolution. That sounds quite extensive. And if the listeners would like to contact you, how can they do so? Yes. My website is www.urgerygroupllc.com and I'll spell that. It's A-R-D-R-E-Y group LLC.com or my office, 877-523-2228. Again, that's 877-523-2228. And thank you so much, Stephanie. You're fantastic. That's a lot of information that you shared with everybody. Oh, thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. All right. Have a great night. You too. And thank you so much for tuning into Psych One on 1. For the next few weeks, I will be on every other week. So I will be back on the air in two weeks with another podcast. I'm Stephanie Kuhlman, another psychology guest. We will have a great time. It's going to be right before the holidays. So it's going to be about positive psychology getting through the holidays. If you would like to contact me, my email is jgoode8 at verizon.net. And please put in the bar that you listen to Psych One on 1, P-S-Y-C-H, one on one. My office number is 564-234-4650. And please contact me at psychoneonone.com. And if you have any questions or concerns, I'm here to help you. So thank you so much. And thank you, Jenny Guzman on the board. Did a great job as usual. And thank you so much for listening to Psych One on 1. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye now.