Get the knives out. Dish is about to be served. Outrageous. Are you kidding? I've been inside only one woman after I was born. The Statue of Liberty. Provocative. If it's a pain in the ass, honey, you're not doing it right. Pop culture. Meanwhile, she's on the cover of Us Weekly. Dating. Boyfriends are like jobs. Except he probably stopped sucking after a year. Wicked. What do I look for in a guy? My dick. Smart. Sassy. Contemporary. I mean, I can't. Porn Again, the podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Josh Sabara. Welcome to Porn Again, the podcast. We're having sort of a G-rated edition today because my guest is my dear friend, Danielle Page, who is a New York Times bestselling author. She has cornered the young adult market with her fairy tale reimaginings, including Dorothy Must Die, which is so good, and everybody needs to get that book. The Wicked Will Rise, and hot off the presses, Yellow Brick War. And her next book, Stealing Snow, a retelling of The Snow Queen, will be on shelves in September. Hi, Danielle. Hi, Josh. I'm so excited to be here. I know. It seems like this is such a formal setting for us. It does. I feel like we should be sitting at a bar. We should. That's why we have our Starbucks for now. I'm not even a coffee drinker, but this is basically a milkshake. I'm a big fan of frappuccinos. I'm having a cappuccino right now just to save on the sugar, but that looks amazing. Okay. I'm just going to keep... You keep ingesting. I'm just going to keep eating. Okay, so before... I mean, I know you've heard the podcast before, but before we start talking about your writing career, I usually cover a few hot topics, things that are irritating to me that week or whatever. I love it. Yeah. Do I get to weigh in or am I just... Of course. You know how much I love to bitch and the more someone disagrees with me, the more fun it gets. Let's see if I can disagree with you. So this is just really a little factoid I'm throwing out there. So apparently Transformers and Ninja Turtles actress, Megan Fox, you know, who's so sexy. I mean, I'm not even interested in women and she's sexy. I know. I'm also not interested in women and I think she's gorgeous. Yeah. Well, she's pregnant again for the third time and she has filed for divorce from her husband, Brian Austin Green of 90210. I was going to say of 90210. Right. So word on the street is that they've stayed close since filing for divorce. I'm wondering how close you think... How close they may have stayed. I think very close. It sounds that way. Yeah, are they still divorcing? Apparently they're going ahead with the divorce is what I hear. Okay. She hasn't rescinded the paperwork. Okay. Well, maybe. So I don't know. Maybe there's hope. Or not. Or not. But don't you think that's such an interesting thing? Like you're still, you're getting divorced, but you're having a third child together. Yeah. I don't, I feel like you maybe you should put the paperwork on hold and just make sure. But I guess. I don't know. So yeah. I don't know. What can I say? Did she like do a press release? Like, how do we know this? I don't know. It's just sort of word on the street, Danielle. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. You forget what town you're in. Yes, I'm from New York. The streets here breathe different things. Yeah. Another thing is, and I know people are going to come after me because every single episode I wind up talking about Rita Wilson, Tom Hanks' wife. Yes, what about her? Because she has a second album out. I never heard the first album. I missed it. Well, nor should anyone. Okay. Okay. But okay. But then I found out today. So it goes further. Like she's been on every talk show. She's been in People Magazine, whatever. And now she's going to be opening for Chicago. The band Chicago on tour. I really didn't know she sang. Well, and I think it's really smart on Chicago's part because at least you know people are going to love what they're hearing once you hit the stage. Yeah. You kind of warm them up with something that's not great. So you've actually heard her sing. So she's not great. I have heard it. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. Basically, she's Tom Hanks' wife. Wow. So she never like started out in music or anything? I have no idea. Okay. I have no idea. It just makes me laugh. For some reason, like the latest Rita Wilson album. I mean, really? Yes. Like I didn't know there was a first one. I'm so totally catching up here. Yeah. Okay. So then another thing that's funny today. So, and this is, there's a reason that I want you to weigh in on this. Because you work in the young adult space and you are in sort of the teen market. So One Directioner, former One Directioner, Zayn Malik. Which one? Which one? Zayn. Okay. Who has a new album out. He's supposedly engaged. To Gigi Hadid. She's so pretty. Right? Yeah. So he's 23. She's 20. And apparently they've been dating for four months. Wow. Yes. So what I want to know is, are young people moving too fast? I mean, Lindsay Lohan is apparently engaged after dating a 22-year-old for five months. I think it's a little. So what is it with these young people? What is it that's, I mean, why the speed? Do you think it's a Hollywood thing? Or do you think it's a. I'm asking you. I'm asking you. You know that you're in these people's heads more than I am. I don't know. I think that if for everyone, there's like that wave of people that get married early. So maybe this is just the same thing. Like when I first graduated high school, I had a couple of friends that got married. I want to. Are they still married? Not the high school ones, but the college. College. Actually, one couple is. And then right after college, there's always like at least two weddings, maybe. So maybe they're just part of that wave. And sometimes those couples stick and sometimes they don't. There is such thing as childhood sweethearts that work. I wouldn't. I believe in getting out there and experimenting a little bit more. Before. Before you choose somebody for life. I think it's good to experiment till at least 45. I'm thinking I'm going to. I'm on that plan myself. So maybe the wrong girl to talk to. But I. But doesn't it seem quick? I mean, to be with somebody for three or four months. I mean, I don't even know if I want somebody, you know, folding my T-shirts after that long. I know. I need more time. Yeah. I feel like I'd need at least a year before I could consider that and probably longer. But I mean, they are younger and your brain's not completely developed. Maybe that's it. I don't know. I mean, that's a good theory. Yeah. So. Now on another just switching courses a little bit. So a number of musicians, authors and celebrities are staying out of North Carolina because of their recent transgender unfriendly law. So not to mention Mississippi's religious liberty law. And then there are some similar happenings in Tennessee. So Bruce Springsteen canceled the show. Brian Adams canceled the show. Now Miley Cyrus is in the mix. Jimmy Buffett sort of came down hard on North Carolina. I don't think he canceled the show. He hasn't canceled the shows yet, but he was very stern in his statement. And then a bunch of authors who are Mississippi or from Mississippi, John Grisham, Catherine Stockett, who wrote The Help and Donna Tartt, among others, have signed a letter demanding that the law be repealed. Do you think that things like this and I know that you were involved in a letter from Publishers Weekly last week about North Carolina. Yeah. A bunch of YA authors. We signed a letter and we put an ad. Publishers Weekly last week. And it was spearheaded by Margie Stoll, who wrote Beautiful Creatures. And there are, I think, about 200 of us that signed. And so I obviously am on board with signing anything that would help get us out of this mess. I think it helps to put our money where our mouth is. Like for people to cancel concerts, it hurts the economy. It tells them that this is not OK. In Georgia, where I'm from, a bunch of companies said that they. They would pull out of their business there. Film companies did that. And like The Walking Dead. Yeah, I saw that. Right. And the governor vetoed the law. So it didn't happen in Georgia because people spoke with their backs. So you're seeing results from that. Yeah. So I think it worked in Georgia. I feel like I can't remember what company in North Carolina just pulled out of putting jobs there. Well, PayPal was involved. Yeah. So I feel like if it has an economic consequence or even then maybe lawmakers will listen. Well, let me ask you this. And I'm on the side of the artists. I agree with what the artists are doing to make the statement because I think it's necessary. Whatever we need to do to fix this. But there's also the other side that says, look, not everybody in these states feels that way. And we've been loyal fans and we've been buying your books and we've been buying your albums and we pay to see you. And we don't agree with, you know, this decision, this legal decision. And now we don't have the opportunity to see you. And so there. They're upset as fans. So do you think there's any way to. I know an author who chose to who had an event in North Carolina who decided he would go there and actually speak about it at his event. But I also know that people feel that that if there's no consequence for if nothing actually happens and you're just talking about it, then probably the lawmakers aren't going to listen. I think that. So it's like the good have to suffer with the bad, unfortunately, to. Yeah, I think so. And I think that. If I were a kid in North Carolina and I agreed with the artists and I would feel like, well, maybe I need to travel to a different place to actually see them. I think it's it's really hard if maybe you just bought tickets to your favorite artist and you're going to miss them. But hopefully this will get resolved or hopefully you can go see them somewhere else. But I mean, I would even skip seeing Dolly Parton in North Carolina if I had to. Yeah. Like I feel I feel that strongly about it. And I think that kids when they really kids are very progressive. I think that if they really think about. And what what this what is happening, then they would support their artists and like, wait, this is wrong. We kind of agree with you. And and if I were a gay kid living in North Carolina and I see that that someone cares enough to pull out, then I think that that it's making a statement for all those kids and those places. Like, I know that one of one of the people that signed the list actually has a kid who who really needs needs this to be done. So I feel like that it matters to see. And I think that if you're a gay kid living in North Carolina and you're going to be that because if I lived in North Carolina and I I was I was a kid who who had one of who was in that space, I would like to have someone send this message. Right. And know that you have the support. Yes. Right. Because it's a big deal to cancel a concert. It's money. It's. Yeah. So I'm all on the side of that. But I you know, I hear rumblings on both. So I was just curious as to your your take on it. I'm with you. That's good. Okay. So since we're going to talk about. Writing, the first thing I wanted to mention to you is I'm sure you saw that Beverly Cleary's just turned 100. Yeah. Did you see that? Is it yesterday that I think it's yesterday. I just retweeted like a quote of hers. What were your favorites of her books? Oh, my God. You go first. What's your favorite? Ralph S. Mouse. Dear Mr. Henshaw. The mouse one was my favorite. And then there was the mouse in the motorcycle. But I have to tell you the funniest thing. I, you know, obviously now as an author, I like I love to read for pleasure. Have you gone back? And read those? Yes, I have. I actually have read them to friends. Yeah. But as a youngster, I did not like to read. And so whenever I had to do a book report, I can't tell you how many book reports I wrote on the mouse in the motorcycle. I love it. And then I recycled. Oh, my God. Over and over and over. And I, of course, was like super nerd who loved to read and wanted to do the book report, whatever it was. Yes. I didn't get I found the pleasures of reading later. Because you're such a big reader now. Now. Yes. Yeah. But for some reason, I think it's because when it was assigned to me. Yeah. I think I don't like authority. I can see. No. And when it was assigned. Surprising. So shocking. And when it was assigned to me, it just felt like a chore as opposed to pleasure. Whereas now I, you know, actually like it. So I'm sorry. So which. So what are we calling your favorite for Beverly Cleary? The mouse, the motorcycle one. Mouse, motorcycle as well. Yeah. Okay. Those two. Okay. So you were born in Ohio, but raised in Georgia. Yes. Okay. So what was your growing? Up. Okay. What was your dream? I'm going to be what when I grow up? Oh, a writer. Like from the second I was like the second I was born, I think I knew I wanted to be a writer. Apparently once I said I wanted to be a lawyer when I was about four and my parents clung to that hope and it never happened for them. But in first grade, I don't know if you had to do this, but we every kid got to make a story and they would put it in a little wallpaper covered like they'd publish it. Like, did you ever get to do that? That's a story that looked like is I don't remember. I mean, I remember. I remember so many things that used to happen. Like, I mean, the things that you used to do in school, the dioramas, the whatever. Yeah. So it was one of those things. Making things out of cereal boxes. Yeah. I mean, the dumb ass things that your parents wind up having to do for you. Yeah. But this one, like the school would actually bind your little book and like every kid got a book. So I got to write a story and it was like a unicorn and a princess and like I was in love and it's like, this is what I want to do. Sounds like the same book cover I'd have. Yeah. And I'm still writing that book now. So I'm doing Snow Queen. Finally, I got there. So yeah. So I wrote that. I feel like if I wrote Snow Queen. Snow Queen, it would be a whole different story. I think you would. I would love to see that version. My version of Snow Queen and yours. Yes. I'd like to see like a side by side comparison of those. I'd like to see the movie actually of yours. But yeah, so I wrote that and I was, I was like smitten with, with writing and, but it did not seem like, like a feasible path or maybe my, I don't know who told me that like it was really hard to be a writer. So I decided I still wanted to write, but I'd be a journalist. So I made the decision and I like worked for my school paper. I was the editor of my journal. My junior high paper, my senior high paper. I went to Columbia and I thought I was going to go to get my master's in journalism. I was so sure. Well, it's so funny because I had a similar path in that way because I thought I was going to do journalism. Yeah. And I went to Syracuse because of the new house school. That's why I picked it. And then I abandoned that. Me too. When I saw how jaded and dark most journalists are. Oh, my story is not, I didn't even get there. Like senior year, I know when I, my freshman year, I decided that maybe I didn't want to do hardcore journalism. Maybe I do broadcast journalism. And then I decided, oh, maybe I want to do magazines. And I ran the magazine. I was at our school and we had, we went to fashion shows. It was so much fun. And then my senior year, I took two internships, one at paper magazine, very hip and cool. Hip is not a cool word though. I've got to find a better word. But we know what you mean. You know what I mean. And Guiding Light, which is a soap opera. Which we're going to get to. Yes. And so I took both internships and I was taking a dramatic writing class and I was like, wait, this is fun. I get to hang out with cute actors and I get to like watch. Guiding Light, I'm sorry, was the ugliest of the soaps. I know, but still better, better than, better than paper magazine. But I used to look, I'm like, we had some good actors. I'm like, but this is the least attractive of soap operas. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, but at least there were some cute boys. Not really. They could have done better. Right. There were some. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I immediately changed my mind and decided I wanted to work there. And I got a job right out of college. And I worked my way up and started writing soap operas. And I was like, okay, I'm going to slow down. Okay, you're getting way too ahead. Okay. I'm going to slow down. We're going to get in. We're going to get into some of this. So I changed my mind. Okay. But when did you actually know, like wanting to be a writer, but when did you actually know that you had a talent for it? Oh, I was in fourth grade and we got to do that wallpaper thing again with books. And I wrote this. You just love being published, don't you? I did. I really had the bug at nine. And so this time it was like, right, a nonfiction thing. And you had, each person had a topic. And my topic was like, what is the secret to success? And I wrote this thing. And my teacher called my parents in and said that Danielle plagiarized this because it was too good. And I had not plagiarized it. My parents stood up for me. And then it's like, if I'm good enough for people to think I faked it, then I'm good. So conversely, have you, did you ever have any school teachers during your either, you know, elementary education or high school education who criticized your writing? No, never. Did you ever get a grade, you know, a lower grade? Once I got a C on a spelling test and I cried. And I got to retake it. Do you want to show up at that teacher's house with a copy of like with this stack? No, I still can't. Bitch, please. No, I can't. Look how many New York Times bestsellers. Okay. No, I can't spell still. So she was right about that. I have an editor. What about the person who thought you plagiarized? Do you want to bring this stack to her house? Oh, yeah. No, I thought it was, I took it as a compliment though. I genuinely thought like, yay me. I'm good enough to be thought of as a fake. But don't you love that whole thing when you get to like show somebody? Yeah. Somebody that. Yeah. No, I, yeah. I have other examples of people I would like to come and do the bitch, please moment with. Who are those people? Just anybody who did not, did not love my writing like later in life. Like, you know, because you audition for stuff and you don't get every single thing. I got a lot of things, but yeah. All right. Well, hopefully they're watching. And this is a big bitch, please for those people. Okay. So you and I met working on the now defunct soap opera. Yeah. Yes. Lighting light. How did that job and internship come about for you? Because you started as an intern and then assistant to the writers and then you became an actual writer for the show. So how did that sort of happen? The internship came from Columbia had a binder. They didn't even have, it wasn't even in the computer for entertainment jobs because they did not, everything was focused on business and, and, and law and stuff. So I found it in a binder. I thought about my grandmother who watched it. My mom watched it. I used to watch it. So I. Well, we watched, I mean, in our house, our cleaning lady, she watched the whole CBS lineup. So it was like from 1230 to 130. She did the living room watching the young and the restless. And then from 1230 to one, it was the bold and the beautiful in my parents' bedroom. Then she moved to our bedrooms for as the world turns and she left right after guiding light. So she had like the three hour schedule. I mean, she was literally, I don't know what she really cleaned. She stood there literally holding them up and watching. I said to my mom, she could be dead. And we wouldn't know unless the mop fell. I love it. Yeah. But my mom watched the lineup. My grandmother did. And I, so that was, that was why I picked, why I picked it. It was like, this will be fun. Not that I wanted to work there. And I just kind of felt like I liked the idea of writing scripts. I thought it was fun. And I worked my way up just like, like any, I did the internship thing. I did the production office thing. And at every turn, I always told people I wanted to write. And eventually I got a head writer, Claire Labine, who created Ryan Tope. Who was like, I think you've been right. She met me. Not like we're dating ourselves or anything. Ryan Tope. I, no, she, yeah. She, well, that was on a very long time ago. But she had a very. Back when Danielle and I used to watch our stories. Yes. Hey, there's a few left. They can't necessarily figure this out. Literally they are hanging on by a thread. But which makes me. They are like a loose tooth. Which makes me sad. I know. We're going to get there. I'm getting there. But so, yeah. So she let me. For example, I used to write the little. Like, you know, if a show was too short, I would write a scene to fill in. And then, like, literally after I did that for a couple months. She's like, let's write an episode together. And we did. My first scene was Alan and Claire in a hot tub. It was like an old guy and a young woman in a hot tub. And that was my very first scene on TV. I invited all my friends over to watch my magic. Your words. Yes. And everyone else was like, they were not as excited as I was. But it was awesome. So what are the challenges of writing for TV? Daytime TV? Because that pace has to be intimidating. I think it's the pace. That is the challenge. And also. Because you're turning out something every day. I mean, literally, you're shooting an hour of TV a day. Yeah. But you write a script a week. So, but you have an outline. So you have something to hold on to. And I say there's like two challenges. There's the speed and like making stuff that's not believable believable. Like, you could have a clone story or a ghost story or whatever. And we did have all of those. And at the time. We had a clone. We had a spirit travel from the Amish country. Yeah. I don't know if you remember. That was hard. The spirit from the Amish country was like hard for me. I mean, honestly. Yeah. Now I think I would kill to write a clone story. I think it fits into my YA world perfectly. But at the time I balked at that stuff. And I was like, I just want to write scenes where people are like talking about their feelings and like their romantic stuff. And like, yeah. So, but now I'm like, well, this is a fantasy is what I do. So it was a good training ground. Yeah. And who knew? Yeah. I had no idea. So as we were saying, unfortunately, daytime drama is sort of going. The way the dinosaur. So when Guiding Light was canceled, what did you do immediately next? Because did you know you wanted to write books or were you looking for other TV jobs right away? I was just looking for any job. And I like, I think the thing about soaps is like, it's such a niche thing and you don't, it's not necessarily respected outside of the genre except for the speed. So like it was. And that's a shame because people do work so hard. If people knew what it took to create an hour of TV a day. Yeah. And I think it just depended on who you talk to, like what, you know, what they felt like. I felt about the genre, but in terms of the actual scripts I produced and some of them, I think I love my dialogue and I was very proud of it, but you can't use that as a writing sample because no one cares. Right. So it's like starting from scratch. I might've written a hundred scripts and none of them mattered. So it was like, I needed to write a spec script. I needed to start over. Do I go to LA? What do I do? And I just, I, I literally like talk to anybody in the world who would have me. And I went on an interview for. MTV made, it was like that show where kids get made over. And this guy who was a lovely producer was like, I don't think you're right for this, but I think I want to do a pilot, like a soap opera. I want to do a teenage soap opera. And he let me write something. So I got to write this, this Ivy league soap opera thing. And Al Roker was a producer on it. It was like so random and fun and it didn't get made, but it did get, they paid me for it. And it went pretty far. So it gave me a taste of like, oh wait, now I have a sample that is not a soap sample and it kind of opened other doors for me. So it gave you a credibility in that space. And I, and through that, I met actually the editor for Dorothy. I was at the writer's guild, like for a party or for something. And I ran into this girl who was at the punch bowl and I talked to anybody about what I'm doing. And you're talking about your, your first bestselling novel, Dorothy Must Die, which is now on paperback. Yeah. And we just, we hit it off. And she, she said that they were looking for stuff and, and, and Dorothy kind of came out of that. So I, I really, I kind of lucked out. It was, but I'll do, I think the other work counts, but it was, but just, it was about talking to people about what you want. And that's how I got here. Funny. It's funny to the soaps for one second. I actually read somewhere that there's a group that advocates it's called like SOS, Save Our Soaps. What is that? Oh. I mean, I just have to laugh. I mean, I appreciate the jobs that daytime provides. They're people. But it just makes me laugh when there's so much going on in the world. Yes. Yes. And people are organizing and making an effort to save soap operas. And I honestly think that. I mean, forget the water in Flint. Who needs that? You need to save our soap operas. Keep General Hospital going. That is, General Hospital is water to some people. I mean. You know, it's, it's, it's, yeah. But I do think there's a place for soaps. And I do think that serialized storytelling, like that's what, what Grey's Anatomy is, you know, is a place for soaps. They're doing what Scandal's doing, what all these primetime shows are doing. They've borrowed from the soaps. Like, yeah. Well, I mean, look, here's the thing. I believe that the OJ trial marked the end of daytime TV for the most part. Because people shifted their attention, first of all. And then it was sort of an economic turning point as well. Just things were different economically in the world, not necessarily related to OJ, but in general. And people weren't home anymore to watch. Yeah. I think it's both women, not women going to the workplace. And then to like the realization from the producers, that, oh, wait, we can make something that costs nothing and, and, and not have to pay all the unions and we could do the Kardashians and, and we can actually like save money. Right. Well, and so now how do you feel about that? The fact that so such a large percentage of what's on TV now is unscripted or quote unscripted. I mean, we both know that that's loose. Well, I think there's a lot on TV, but then there's been kind of a, an answer to that. There's so much drama too. Like there's not, there's so many. There's so many other options. But a lot of that's not on network. Right. But there, so if you don't have, if you don't have cable, then you're losing out. If you do have, if you do have these other options, there's a lot of drama still out there. So it's just, if you economically cannot afford all the cable stuff, then that sucks. Yeah. Because a lot of what's on, I mean, and I'm not saying there aren't some great shows on network. I mean, there are, but it's just become, TV has become, I mean, this whole binge watching mentality and all that, it's just become a different landscape. It has. But as a writer, there's a lot more. Opportunity. Again, I feel like there was a moment where I thought it was, everything was going to go to reality. But I think the advent of like networks, Netflix and Amazon has really, there's like, it's open doors. There's a lot of drama. So I want to talk to you a little more. You touched a little bit about how the Dorothy series came about. So the first book in the series, which was a wildly successful bestseller, which is Dorothy Must Die, which is the first in the series. So how exactly did that come about? So you're at a party and you're networking. And you tell somebody I'm interested in, I mean, how, I mean. It was just, it literally ended up having a meeting with, with, with the, the editor. And, and that was, and it just kind of came from there. It was like one of those, like, like, like, like things that don't happen, but happen for me. Like you were like, that was your Lana Turner at Schwab's moment. Yeah, it really was. So clearly the publisher believed it enough because you were signed for two sequels right away. The Wicked Will Rise and Yellow Brick War. Yeah. And now we're going to four. So it's going to be. Oh, it is going to be four now? Yeah. So if you, when you finish this last one, you're going to notice there's a cliffhanger. So it has to go. There's one more. Oh, I haven't finished this one. Okay. Okay. So did their, but did their confidence scare you? Like, I would imagine that that's a lot of pressure that you finished the one and then they, you're, they're already wanting your, your next. It's the way the YA world works. There's a lot of series. Like, and you're actually, it's kind of, it's kind of, as a writer, you're relieved to have the work lined up. It's like, I knew. I knew for the first time in a long time that I had two years of work, like even in soaps, every six months I can can you. Instead, I knew that I had, I had three years of work, like solidly there. And that is actually kind of a relief and a comfort. The books could not do well. And that would be, that would suck, but I would have that time to figure out my next move. So in a way it was like kind of like the, like a best case scenario. But how much, but, but was there a pressure then once Dorothy must die was such a success? Was there a pressure? Did you feel a pressure? Did you feel a pressure like, oh shit, I need to deliver on The Wicked Will Rise? Yeah, I want the, I want the fans to be happy. I want it to be as good. And you have a little bit less time because of touring and scheduling and stuff. So yeah, there's like, there's definitely a pressure, but I did feel like a comfort level at the same time. And like, you have the joy of, since the book did do well, it's like, oh my God, like kids actually like this. So you have this kind of validation going into the next one. It's a little of both. And is there also a pressure to sort of, duplicate your success? Like, did you put that pressure on yourself? Like, okay, is Wicked Will Rise going to hit the same part, point on the New York Times bestseller list? I freaked out like right before it came out. It's like, is it going to do well? Did I push it enough? Is there anything I can do? And you just, you know, it's like, are kids still interested in it? Like there, you can, kids can age out of a series. Kids can get tired of it. They might want, Dorothy might not be their thing this year. So there's always that. So yeah. And like even this, you know, the next one came out last month. And I was just, you feel it all over again. You feel the terror of like, is any, does anybody like me? Is anyone going to come to my party? You know? Right. Right. So how did it feel when Yellow Brick War debuted on the bestseller list? Oh, it's really exciting because, because it's the series list, which is the combined middle grade and, and YA. So it's like the, it's the, it's the Harry Potter list. So it was a big deal for me. And so. And your parents who, who were hoping that you might go into law, do they still hope that you'll wind up in a courtroom or are they good with this now? You know, I think if I have a bad ear down the road, they could still say like law school's there for you, honey, but they're very proud. And the New York Times thing, I think kind of meant more to them than like getting nominated for Emmys and stuff. Like they're book people. Because you have been nominated for Emmys. Yeah. I don't have one. No, but you've been nominated. And didn't you win a writer's award? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did win a writer's award. Yeah. Which I was thrilled for. But my, but yeah, but for my parents, I think the New York Times thing, like there's some sort of like, my parents watch like book TV and they're like, have you seen the latest book TV where this author's talking about this and they call me. So they are really excited about books. So this really makes them happy too. And then what will happen when you wind up producing a, a, a film based on something that you write and you wind up having to get an Oscar? What, what will their reaction be? You know, I think then, I think if I have the Oscar, maybe I don't have to go back to law school, but you never know. And then you'll have to. We have to do, we have to figure out a way for you to be an EGOT because we'll have to figure out how to get you your Emmy, your Oscar. We can get you a Golden Globe. But the Tony, you might have to write a book of a musical. I think that's the only way because I could not perform. So that would be. You could write the book or you're going to need to learn to write music. I would have to write the book then. I, not musical at all. Are you musical? And does a Golden Globe, is the G a Golden Globe or is it a Grammy? Grammy. Okay. Well, if it's a Grammy, then we could also get you, you could do this, a spoken word. You could. I could do. I could do the audio. I could do the audio. I have a voice for it. I could do it. Okay. All right. So that's my plan for you. Thank you. This is good. This is good. But we have to start with the Oscar, obviously. Wait, what did you ask me? Did I what? I can't even remember what I asked you. I don't know. It wasn't a good question, clearly. Clearly I'm on the right side of the table. It would have stuck. Yeah. I did not end up being a journalist. So. So the series, which is a retelling basically of The Wizard of Oz. Yes. Yes. Has sort of struck, has really struck a chord with young readers. So you've had interim novellas published to keep rapid fans happy. Yes. In between actual full length novels. Have you had any particularly fun fan experiences? My very, very first tour, there was a girl dressed like Dorothy and I was like sold. It's like, that's amazing. I didn't know the kids dressed up. I mean, it's an easy costume to get, but it was just a regular library visit. And there she was. And that was so amazing. And once I did a Skype visit with a class and the entire class was dressed as my characters. So that was good. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And what about gifts? Like, do people bring you things? I get a lot of fan art. I get a lot of fan art. Like people draw stuff. It's amazing. And there's so many talented little kid artists. I love it. So do you, and the books sort of speak to a pretty wide, I mean, they're considered young adult. Yes. But they kind of speak to, I mean, like I could see a more advanced, younger person. I think. And I could also see it appealing to adults. It actually. Like it's not really straddles that line. I think because Oz is so universal. Like I think we all grew up reading it. So there's like, it already has this like home base for everybody. And I think it really, there's a lot of eighth graders that love my book. And then there's a lot of moms that come to my line. And there's like a lot of just like people who love Oz. So it's kind of like, like it's like, like typo blood. Like it's kind of everybody likes it, which is great. That's a good analogy. Thank you. No, to self. So your Oz character is a Kansas teenager named Amy Gum. Yes. So how much of Danielle would you say did you inject into this person? Well, I did not grow up in a trailer park. But, you know, but I get that question a lot. I do think that I have a lot of sarcasm. You know me. Yes. And I don't always say it out loud. She says it out loud. So there's like, I think it's like a little internal Danielle voice. And yeah, she's more of a blurter than I am. But I do think that that I relate to her. I relate to her struggle and that I socially pretty. I'm good at being social. She's not as good as that. But but I think the struggle of being a writer, I kind of relate to the struggle of being a teenager. Like there's something about you have to keep striving and the journey thing. I totally feel up. I feel that. Did you feel did you make a conscious choice to give her certain attributes to make her better? At certain things that you are not good at and vice versa? Like, did you? Was that a thing or did it just sort of come out that way? No, I think it's kind of fun writing someone who's tougher than you like in that way. Like I like that she's a girl that could actually throw a punch if she had to. Like there's like that is not an experience that I've had, but it's fun to play with. Not with your nails. No, I would just not happen. So like she can do those things that I can do. And I kind of think that's that there's something so cool about that. Now, do you have if you could. Pick somebody to play her. When you write, do you have somebody in mind? No. Or you've totally. OK. Yeah, I think I'm just I'm she's somebody that does not that I've not seen before. Like she doesn't relate to a friend of mine. She's a little bit of me and something else. I can't say that when I was writing Dorothy, though, I saw Lindsay Lohan. So it's kind of like the train wreck kind of character, like at least externally. But that's like maybe the only person in the universe. Everything else was just in my head. That might be a long. Shot the Lindsay Lohan. You might have a protection, might have a hard time insuring her. I feel like. Yes, but I think. And plus now we said she's getting married anyway. She's busy with her 22 year old. She's planning her wedding. But maybe he grounds her. Maybe he'll make her more solid and she could be in my movie. No, you don't think so. I just think it's a liability. But, you know, there you go. Yeah. You do what you need to. Yeah. Don't mind me. We'll see. But her early work was I love mean girls forever. Well, on Freaky Friday. She was great. The remake of Freaky Friday. And she was great in Parent Trap. It's like someone that has so much potential. I loved her. Well, and it is a shame that she sort of went down the stony end to some degree. Because she really is a good little actress. Yeah. And I thought that she was going to be our. Like I said, good little actress. Yes. Like a little diminutive. Good little actress. But she really. I thought she had real talent and like would be like. I thought she'd be a star that like lasted. I was so surprised by her spiral. And I'm glad that she's at least in a stable place. Even if she's not acting yet. But maybe she'll have a second. I mean, like look at Robert Downey Jr. Like. Right. He's brilliant. And he had a spiral. And he came back. And he's like bigger than ever. Right. And I was about to say, yeah, but he didn't try to do albums. But he did. He did. He did. So it's all the same. He's just like. It's the same story. Everybody thinks that he or she can sing. Yeah. Except for me. I know I cannot. Same here. I will not be singing publicly. Although sometimes what I hear nowadays that gets released. I feel like if I had the right producer. If you. If we were. And I was auto-tuned. Auto-tuned. Like I think I might be passable. And with the right dance number, Josh. Right. Yeah. The right sequence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could do it. Yeah. So you don't have to say which. Okay. But do you have a favorite book in your series? Or I assume they're all like children. Like loved it differently. But equally. No. I love the first one. You do. I do. I love how I wasn't trying to nail you to something. And you're just like. Yeah. First one. I love the other. Why is that? Because it's. It's when you build the world. And it's like. It's like your first. You know. First kiss. First. You know what. Like it's just. It's that. That first blush of something. I loved being able to create this world. And that's where it came together for me. So I love still being in the world. But like. I think there's something about the first. Can you explain the term. Which is so often used now. With particularly fantasy fiction. Is the term world building. For people who are writing. And they call it world building. It's everything. Everything from like. What the place. Looks like. To what the currency. What the money. Currency is. To what the belief system is. To like. What the themes are. Like it's. It's kind of like. Like. Like. Starting from scratch. I am starting from Oz. But like. For me. It was like. Circumventing everything. And okay. This is what. What the world's going to look like. And this is what. The problems are in that world. So. In my world. Dorothy has taken. Made a happiness decree. That says. Everyone has to be happy. But really. It's only her. That has to be happy. And. She's draining the magic. Out of the world. And the world. Looks to. The Oz. That you know. Is not technicolor anymore. Because she's drained it out of it. Like that's. It's the bad stuff. It's the details. Of the world. So when you create that. When you create this backstory. And you. You know. Sort of who your characters are. And what the world is. Do you necessarily. Include all of those details. In the book. Or. Is some of it. Just really there for you. So that it's a consistent world. Yeah. You have to answer the questions. For yourself. But like. Every detail. To. Every detail. Is not going to come up. In the first book. It might not come up. Until the last book. It might never actually come out. But I like. That you know. I know. That the uniforms. Look like XYZ. Or. Even though that may not actually. Appear in the story. Because it just makes it. More real for you. And. And. It. It. It makes it. Like. Then you can tell your story. Because you're really there. So. Your next book. Which comes out in September. Is a retelling. Of the Snow Queen. Called Stealing Snow. Yes. How did you decide. To tackle that story next? I wanted to do. Another retelling. Because I. I had such luck. With the first one. And I actually went out. With a Peter Pan story. First. And then ended up. Doing something different. And I might have dodged a bullet. Because Peter Pan. Didn't have the best year. In other avenues. But I still love. That Peter Pan one. By that you're referring to Pan. Yes. With Hugh Jackman. Yes. I wanted him to be good. Who I love. I mean. And I love Peter Pan. Yeah. I mean. I wanted to be Peter Pan. I used to run around the house. Singing. And pretending. Like I was Peter Pan. You would be so cute as Peter Pan. Not that I was gay or anything. No. No. Just really cute. But. I couldn't believe that. It just. That movie had all the trappings. Yeah. Of success. But then just. Yeah. So I kind of like. I switched gears. And. Tried Snow Queen. And I love it. It's so much fun. So how do you feel. Because Frozen. Which is sort of. Also part of that genre. And that. I'm so going to have a panic attack. The day before this book. Comes out. Because like. Who wants. Does anyone want. Grown up Frozen. I'm hoping. That it works in that way. I think. But don't you think people who were. I mean. Frozen is. What? Two years ago now. I think it might be like. Four maybe. I don't. I can't even do the math anymore. But I. I. I think the. The original story. The. The original fairy tale. Is so different than what Frozen is. Frozen is. Right. Then I got to. Like delve into that. And I like a good dark story. And that's what I'm doing. So it's. It's very different. But it's still. If you like. If you like princessy stuff. But dark. It's. It's. Well I've read. I've read most of it. Yes. So. I'm a fan already. So. There you go. Not to tease everyone. To say I've read it. And you haven't. But. Yeah. But we can talk. We can say what. Like it starts out in a mental hospital. And there's a girl who does not realize she's the snow queen. And a hot orderly tells her to. To cross a tree and run away. And. And you know how much I love a hot orderly. I do too. In your books though. Clearly. They end up differently than they do in my stories. I know. I like your stories though. You know. Plumbers. Pizza delivery men. It all turns out differently in my mind. Than it does in yours. Yeah. Completely. I didn't say that. Well in my mind it could be different than on the page. Right. But in this case. Yeah. So it's just the hot orderly tells her this. She crosses this tree. And she ends up in another land. And people kneel for her. Like. Like. That's. That's the thing. So it's really. And she finds out that her father. The snow king. Wants to have her killed. So it's dark and fun. There you go. There you go. So. So. With. So. Do you have any interest in trying your hand in a novel for adults? And when I say that. I don't mean erotic. I mean just a more. That's geared towards a. I would love to do that. Yeah. I would love to do that. I don't know what it is. Because I think I'm really in the YA space right now in my head. But. I spent a long time writing for grownups. And I love doing that too. So yeah. I would love to. I'd love to tackle something grown up. With kids growing up so fast these days. Which was sort of what we were talking about during the hot topics. Yeah. Where they start. And they know so much so soon now. How different is YA material from adult material? Like where is the line? What is it that separates? What separates it is just having the story be told from the point of view of a young adult. Like you cannot have it be about anyone. It can't be about a young adult and their mom. It can't be Gilmore Girls. It has to be focused on the kid. And the kid has to be 18 or younger. And that's like that's really the only dividing line. Like. So it's not about the writing style. Per se. It's not about the content. No. It's really about perspective. It's yeah. And it's. And that. That's it. Like that's how we classify it. And I mean something like Goldfinch is technically a young adult book. Because it's about a. It's about a young. Young. Young teenage girl. So. But it's. And you know how much young adults want to read 900 page books. They do. They love it. There's a few that are in like the five or 600 page. And people love them. We just break the books up. Into three books. And then you don't realize. You're reading 900 pages. Yeah. So. I mean sometimes people think it's like there's just a big difference in the. In the quality. But I don't think so. I think you can. I think that there's like. There's a range. So since you work in the young adult space. Do you feel like you have more of a responsibility in your own personal life. To. Do you have a responsibility like to behave a certain way. And be a certain kind of person. Because you have all of these fans who are so young. I just don't. I would not post anything about my life that I feel. Not that you do anything wrong. I mean you're like. Such a good. You know. Good person. You know. But. I'm just saying like. Do you feel a responsibility to just sort of. Yeah. Well. Yeah. I would. I'd like to. Like. Yeah. I do feel a responsibility. Like for example. With my brand. I say whatever I want. Like I don't feel any responsibility to anyone. Except to be who I am. To be completely genuine. And. If I. If this person's a bitch. I'll say they're a bitch. You probably have to be a little more guarded. Yeah. I don't. I don't put that out there. But I honestly. Before I started writing. Also because you're nicer than I am. Yeah. Which might be a reason. I am. And that's not hard to be. I think that you're. Charles Manson's made the same claim. I think that you're super nice. And just very honest and funny. But yeah. Like I don't put anything out. But I don't. Even before. Before I started writing YA. I didn't put anything out there. On that way. So. I'm actually still kind of. Getting truited up. But also you are now. Much more public. Than you were at that time. Yes. Which is such a weird thing. Because as a writer. You think of your. Like I. Honestly. I had. A good number of years. Where I was writing. Professionally. And no one. No one cared. So. On that way. Right. So it is interesting. Like. The YA community. Has its own little. Like. Like. It's like. We go on tours. And there's like. Hundreds of kids. That come and. See us. And it's like. There's something kind of amazing about it. And you never think about that. When you start writing. Good. So. That there is a responsibility. Yeah. To those people. Yeah. What does it feel like. When you walk into Barnes and Noble. And at the bottom of the escalator. Is a huge display. With. Danielle Page books. That is so. It's just so cool. Because I feel that way for you. Yeah. When I walk into Barnes and Noble. It literally never gets old. It's like. It is just. It's a surprise. Every time. I don't want to sound like Pollyanna. But you just. You do not get tired of that. It's like. It's really. Right. Yeah. And like. When I see your. You know. I'll go in. And whenever. A new novella comes out. They'll have all of your books. In one area. There'll be a table full of Danielle Page books. Yeah. It's just that part. I love it. I love it. And I think when you write. You want people to read you. And you want your words to be out in the world. And to get to have that. And have this response. Has just been like. This big gift. That I didn't think I was going to get. I'm really happy. So. Tell me about. Y'all West. Which is like. This burgeoning young adult convention. It may. Burgeoning might be a little conservative. I think. At this point. It's broken out a little bit more. I don't. Can't even. I don't know the numbers. But it. It is. It's really big now. Compared. Like. This is its second year. It comes out of Y'all Fest. Which is. Was the one in. In South Carolina. And it is. It's getting bigger every year. It's like. So. They ship in like. Kids from others. From schools to come. And it's a real teen book festival. Like. You have like. A hundred. Hundreds of kids in the audience. Like. And it's two days. Of panels. And like. The biggest names in YA. Like. Veronica Roth. Who did Divergent. Victoria Aviard. Who is Red Queen. Just. All these great. Last year. James Dashner. Like. There's like. A bunch of people. That are. Are. Like. It's the top of YA. And if you. Love these books. Then you. You want to be there. So. Sort of like. The place for. Fans to connect. With the authors. And for you to connect. With your fans. Yeah. And they have like. There's so many signings. And fun panels. The panels are actually chosen. By kids. Which is great. Yeah. They didn't ask me for porn again. It's so. It's so weird. I don't know. I don't know. Like this year. There's going to be. Hamilton sing along. There may or may not be. Some Harry Potter cosplay. It's just like. Cosplay. Yeah. I mean honestly. Yeah. Not to judge. Because. It's. You know. You know. I don't. You know. But. Cosplay. But Harry Potter. It's very sweet. In my world. Cosplay. It's very different. In the sex writing world. Cosplay is a whole different thing. Yeah. I know. In our world. It's just. It's just. There's lots of paddling. And spanking. Might as well just be Halloween. Like. But not even like. Grown up Halloween. It's like. Kid Halloween. Got it. So it's just. Just really sweet. And fun. There's like a smackdown. There's a little. Like there's a performance night. Where all the authors get to perform. And like. They do Hollywood squares. And like. Just fun. Just cute stuff. That sounds great. And there's a band. Like there's a. A band of YA authors. Libba Bray. And. Is like the lead singer. She wrote a bunch of amazing books. Like the Diviners. And she's a singer. She's a singer for it. It's just. Just really fun. And they're called Tiger Beat. As it should be. So you'll be. At Y'all West. I'll be doing a bunch of panels on Saturday. And the performance thing at night. It's going to be really fun. So if you. Anyone's in town. So people can come and. They can. People can buy tickets for that. Is that how it works? You buy. Sort of a pass to the festival. I think that. I think it's like. Pretty. It's free for. Some of the things are free. And then there are a few ticketed things. So like. I think that. Like the panels actually. I think are all. Free. But they're. Like. You might have to get the tickets too. For some things. Just because it fills up. Okay. Yeah. Got it. So. Tell me about your. Fellow young adult writers. Because it seems like a very specific. Genre world. It is. It's like this. I think because. And you all seem to know each other. We do. And. And it's like this weird. Also a big surprise. Because coming from Soaps. Which I absolutely loved. It was a. A world that was kind of shrinking. So it's like. Like. Who's going to be left on the ship. Even though it's a wonderful ship. And. Like. I've gotten so much support. Now. From my Soap friends. Like. They've really come out. And helped me. But. The YA world is like. Growing. Like. It's just one of those. So every. There's not. That kind of crazy competition. As in. The other. Like. As in TV. Like. I feel like you're not competing with anyone. It's like. Everyone is. Trying to push everyone else up. There's like. Room for everyone on the ship. You know. So. That sounds. That almost sounds very fairytale-ish. It does. I mean. You mean to tell me. That there's no competitive. Like. There's no death match. Going on between anybody. Nobody's. Secretly. Hoping for the failure of a. Oh. I'm sure. That that happens. It hasn't been my experience. So far. That like. I'm sure. That they're. I want to smack down. Yeah. I want to see red. Yeah. I bet. I kind of want to see the underside of it. But I haven't. I don't want it to be. I think you're better off. Staying where you are. I like my fairytale land. No. But I've made a lot of good friends. And I do. And people like. Like. Your book comes out. Everyone tweets for each other. Everyone. Right. You know. We all go to the same conferences. We all. We go to Comic Con. We do all these things together. And it. So it's just. I mean. It's nicer to be nice. And enjoy the company. Than like. It's a lot of time. With a lot of people. Like. You don't. I think it'd be harder. If you're. No. I agree. And I like nice people. Because they're easier to make fun of. Yeah. And I think that just the culture. You're dealing with like. How hard can it be. To be. Like. Everyone's writing for kids. It's not like. It's not like. It's not like. You know. Bitch sloppy. Kind of place. You know. Well. I may join the ranks. And I'll turn it into. Yeah. You just. You can bring. Bring some drama. We need some drama. Just kidding. Okay. So. I'm going to shift now. At the end of each show. I always talk about. A dating or sex question. That comes into my. For either. My gay times column. In London. Or from some of the Huffington Post. Pieces I write. So today. We have a dating question. Cool. I need to start dating again. So if you know anybody. You know. Listen. I'm just throwing it in the air. We need somebody really in New York. For you. Oh yeah. Because for the most part. You're in New York. I mean. I'm out here for a month. But yeah. So everybody. You see how lovely. And pretty. And smart. And talented. Danielle is. I love you. Josh. If. Somebody is interested. You see her. You know where to tweet me. At Josh Sabara. I will gladly. Go through applications. I will vet you. And then I will determine. Whether or not. You make it in front of Danielle. Oh. You are so cute. What's going on with my hair. By the way. Okay. So. I received a direct message. On Twitter. From somebody named Lydia. A 20 year old woman. In Seattle. Okay. So she's been active. On various dating sites. And she finds that the back. And forth messaging. Always gets her hopes up. So by the time. She actually meets the men. On the other side of the phone. They're inevitably. Disappointing to her. Yes. So she wants to know. If we can suggest. Any ways. That she can better. Manage her expectations. So that there's not. A huge letdown. So often. I think try to meet faster. That's what I was going to say. I agree with you. I don't think it's about. Managing her expectations. I think it's about. Changing. The behavior pattern. Of the dating experience. Because I think. If you meet faster. Then you just say next. If it's not working. If you don't have the chemistry. Like. Don't like. Don't have the build up. And then. Discover in real life. That you don't like the person. So what. To you would be. The right amount of time. Like show. So you meet. How much time. Do you need to know. That there's enough. Of a common interest. Is the profile enough. Or. I think I need a little bit more. Than the profile. But I would like. Like maybe you just. Text a couple of times. And like. If this guy seems like he's. If you feel like it's safe. Then go. Like I feel like. Well and always meet in a public place. Oh yeah. I say the sooner the better. Because. Why waste your time. I really believe in that. So I say if you can meet. I mean I get that sometimes. During the week. It's hard. Yeah. Because you're. You know. People are working. Or they're in traditional jobs. But. I say if you can meet. Within two to three days. Yeah. Don't. Of being in touch. And not to encourage. The constant texting. And don't invest. And also don't always. You know. A lot of times. People will say. You know. Oh. Instead of working through this app. Let me give you my number. And we can text back and forth. And I always think that. First of all. By giving somebody your number. You're really inviting them. Into a really personal place. Yeah. I don't want to do that. And it's inviting them. To be in touch with you. More regularly. So if you keep them. Confined to the app. Yes. And then try to meet them. Within two to three days. I think that sounds like a good plan. I think is the best way. So for Lydia. Our advice to you. Is not to. Change your expectations. Right. But set yourself up better. So you can. Meet your expectations. And then. When something's not working. Don't drag it out. It's. You know. You meet. It doesn't work. You move on. Yes. I think that's good advice. Okay. So. Thank you Danielle Page. For joining us today. You can find Danielle on Facebook. At Danielle Page. P-A-I-G-E-Y-A. As well as on Twitter. And Instagram. At Danielle M. Page. There's a 15 year old. That took my name. Without the. Yeah. Bitch. Yeah. That's. You know. I will. Hunt. Her down. She self published. Before me. She's great. She's lovely. I'm sure she's lovely. I kid you. I wish I could buy my name off of her. I kid you Danielle Page. The other Danielle Page. Who to me. Will forever be the other. Yeah. She's probably like. She'd be 17 now. I think. Right. Well. I'm doing the math. Let her come back to me. With three New York Times bestsellers. And she and I will talk. Yes. Until then. Aw. Danielle M. Page. Yes. Is where you'll find. This. Wonderful writer. On Instagram. And Twitter. And her bestselling. Young adult novels. Which are. Dorothy Must Die. And The Wicked Will Rise. And the new book. Which I should show you. Is called. Yellow Brick War. I can never tell. Where I'm looking. Yellow Brick War. Is just out now. Hot off the presses. And Stealing Snow. Comes out in September. So all her. All of her books. Are available on Amazon. Barnes and Noble. Wherever books are sold. Yes. Also. I just want to remind everybody. That I am going to be. At RuPaul's Drag Race. Yes. Yes. Yes. At the Drag Con. How cool are you? I'm so excited about it. Yeah. I want to go to the Drag Con. You're welcome to come. I'm going to Vegas. For Romantic Times Festival. Yeah. But it's not till May. You'll just come back. Oh. It's worth flying in for. You don't. You can't get me to sign something. For you at any other time. No. No. You'll have to fly to LA. So. I'll be signing. Copies of Porn Again. A memoir. May 7th and 8th. And also. My pal. Jace Peoples. Who is the author. Of an LGBT. Friendly. Children's book. Called. Square Zare Pair. Which is adorable. I want to see that. By the way. I will. I'll get you a copy. It's adorable. He's going to be signing. Books with me there. That's so cool. So. There's something for the kids. And something for the adults. You're the grown up. So. You can get tickets to that. At www.rupaulsdragcon.com. So cool. And thank you. To everybody. For joining us. And. Keep an eye out. For some new episodes. Coming soon. Thank you. Thank you for having me Josh. Thanks Danielle. Thanks for listening. The No Holds Barred. Conversation continues. 24-7. On Facebook. At Josh Sabara Author. At Twitter and Instagram. At Josh Sabara. And then buckle your seatbelts. For some titillating real talk. Porn Again. A memoir. By Josh Sabara. Is available now. As a trade paperback. E-book. And audio book.