good afternoon welcome to the love i stop touching me all right no i will not i will not stop touching me uh welcome to the love bite um i'm insidious muse i'm service slut and we have uh people in studio and they're awesome they're awesome and they brought us gifts uh they brought well let's start with they brought cake which is not even interested not just any cake i'm not allowed to just say cake i mean we we we like to buy people's love i mean it's it's very effective currency for currency although i want to let you know that that my love was bought with the conversation we were having earlier i did not need any of this because uh my love can be bought with words it's very easy i'm so cheap yeah that's really inexpensive currency i'm a cheap bitch anyway um so we have uh andrew that'd be me who is a rope guy uh and then tiffany who's a who's a rope gal and uh one of the reasons we met andrew at the group which we haven't done a group show yet but whatever um and he was talking about japanese rope bondage and like all of this stuff and i was like jumping on this and said do you want to come on the show because we don't know shit about rope i mean i have like a ton of rope that i do one thing with so it would be nice to have somebody on that knows more about rope does it take all of that rope to do that one thing no and that's the point i have a lot of rope and it's really heavy but then i feel like i should really just what if i need my rope and so i put it it's pretty because it's all purple but that's not the point the point is let's have somebody on that knows about rope it's important it's important to have pretty rope well it's all relative yeah if you don't like it then what are you doing with it i know especially when people are doing really beautiful things with rope sure but um and he brought us gifts and they're all you look at this piece of rope that's that and then there's this one those are not necessarily gifts those are those are things that may have to come back to me those are more visual aids that you can interact with and we can discuss there are more discussion points in case we got lost within the hour for what we were talking about so let's start with kind of before we get into the the philosophy of japanese rope which is going to be pretty in-depth talk about just these types of ropes that are before us that nobody can see because it's not television but that's not the point so we um and we'd sort of preface the show with you wanting to talk to somebody specifically about rope so my my idea in coming in was not to talk specifically about japanese rope bondage although that is the aesthetic that i'm most typically leaned towards so i didn't know how in-depth your experience with rope was so i brought you some things so you can understand the different tactile feelings of the different types of ropes that were sort of most frequently used so uh the black rope that you have uh directly in front of you nancy that's nylon rope uh that's pretty readily available you can find that at most hardware stores um all the way to your right my left uh the white rope uh that's cotton rope um that is also usually uh pretty easy to run down um the rope next to that going from your right to your left uh that is uh romanian hemp rope um that uh is actually rope that i treated and processed myself um thank you well it's it's it's gotten it's gotten some good use out of it are we smelling now are we smelling rope is it yeah the actual texture of the rope changes. Next to that, there's some American made sheet rope that that rope actually comes from a gentleman called a Mega Man. That rope actually was used to tie me. Interesting story. I purchased that rope after I was tied for a book buy and I don't know if you're familiar with a gentleman by the name of David Lawrence. He's a photographer and bondage artist. He's released some very well done black and white bondage books. He was in the process of putting together a project that was going to be all men tied. Nice. He was in Los Angeles. He was looking for models. I thought that would be an awesome thing to do. Yeah, you don't see a lot of that. So there's some- Everybody likes boobs. Yeah, no, there's some great photos of me tied that he did. And after we were done, he offered me the option of purchasing the rope and I thought it would be in. Some of it was used for CBT. I don't know if David really wanted that rope back afterward. Yeah, it's called fluid bonding. And then the last rope that you guys have in front of you, is a Japanese jute. So that came from Japan. There's a significant difference between the American and the Japanese jute. Yeah, it's got a little bit of a different quality from it. And I don't know what a Mega Man's process is. So I can't speak to exactly how and why that fact is. But the last rope that you have in front of you is what's commonly known as a Steve rope. He's a Japanese come European rope artist. So he's... Performing in Japan, has performed in Japan for many, many years, is extremely well regarded. But is one of the few performers in Japan that's actually an English speaking performer. So tends to be very popular in the United States because obviously easily understood. And then there's a scarf. Those actually aren't scarves. Those are Japanese dish towels. Yes. And those are Japanese dish towels are traditionally used... To keep the wife in line? Among other things, yes. So they're used as blindfolds and gags. So you'll sort of traditionally see them. And the two that I've given you are sort of the traditional spotted patterns that you would see associated with Japanese rope bondage. One in red, one in blue. They seem terribly, like they wouldn't be very absorbent. So really crappy dish towels, I just wanna say. I know. And that's what's funny about them. Hey, you're the domestic one, you should care. And that's what's funny. They are very good at absorbing spit. They have to be knotted up into multiple layers for that to work. But... You sort of... There's this interesting process where there's sort of the decorated version that you have and then there's a plain version. And you take the plain version, it's usually about twice the length of that, and you put a knot in it. You drop the knot in the submissive's mouth. You take it all the way behind their head, all the way in front of their mouth, knot it in the back again. And you put the pretty one over it. Oh. So that's more of the gag feature. You pretty them up afterwards. Yeah. They all like that. Yeah. So there's some controversy with rope people. There's always controversy with rope people. And that is that there is a right rope to use. No. Okay. No. There's... Let me... Let me... A, let me apologize to everyone that is about to hear this podcast with. These are my opinions. They're the opinions I hold. They're based on the research that I've done and the people that I've interacted with. They aren't necessarily right. They are my way. They aren't the right way. And the reason that I bring that up is because my opinion is one that there is not... I don't know. I don't know. I don't think that there is not the right way. There is a more safe and a less safe way. Just as with any sort of BDSM play, there is a more safe and less safe way. The more safe or less safe route are certainly your and the dominant and the submissives' responsibility to negotiate equally and have an understanding of what is more and less safe. That said, I don't believe that there is a right way to perform any of the actions that that you would assume. associated with rope. There is what you consider an appropriate amount of risk and what you consider an inappropriate amount of risk. There's what you consider aesthetically enjoyable and what you don't consider aesthetically enjoyable. Or tactilely. Or tactilely enjoyable. But that said, there isn't a right rope. There isn't a right tie. There is the right tie for your bottom in the moment when she needs rope in the way that you want to apply it. Or he. Or he. Thank you very much. Gender neutral here. I tie men too. You guys, if you were at the group, I suspended a guy at the group. I saw that, yes. We had a great time. His first suspension. It was his first suspension. And in that moment, it sort of doesn't matter. And you can go back to, there are people that look at Japanese rope now and Shibari or Kenbaku is, you need Japanese chute rope and it needs to come with a certain pedigree. And it needs to be six meters. Or, yeah, well, it needs to be six meters. If you're in Japan, but if you're in the US, our body styles tend to be bigger. So you need to go with seven meters or eight meters. And there will continually be arguments about this. But if you look back in the more research that I've done with both my mentor that I've learned from and the small group that we have that are sort of going through the history and the nature of Japanese bondage, the more we discover that those rules tend to be broken. So if you look really, to post-World War II Japan, when people started doing these ties, they were using cotton rope. I mean, there are modern bondage artists that use cotton rope now. They might not necessarily use them in performance, but they will use them aesthetically to execute ties that they're looking to use that look of rope, that feel of rope, that color of rope for that particular photo. Is there a history, a historic significance to it happening post-World War II in Japan? I mean, it was kind of a- No, I think, and there's research being done to show that it extends farther back beyond that. I think a lot of the published materials that are more readily available come from sort of post-World War II Japan. It goes back farther than that. I mean, there are arguments, and some of these arguments both exist and some of them are being disproven, that it goes back to Japanese martial art called Hojima. It goes back to Japanese martial art called Hojima. It goes back to Japanese martial art called Hojima. Which Hojima was, in feudal Japan, there was an inability to mine and process metals there was an inability to mine and process metals in the same way that we do in the West. So it was a lot less of a shackle-based culture, a lot less of a cuff-based culture, and a lot more of a rope-based culture. So when you were arrested by a constable, the constable would use rope to tie you. So in the same way, if someone here were videotaped being let out in handcuffs, for a Japanese person, being tied carries that same shame association of being arrested. In a lot of instances, basic patterns that Kimbaku or shibari are built up on have a basis in some of the original Hojujutsu patterns. So the general idea being, if you look at some of the museums that exist in Japan that sort of go over this specific martial art, there are patterns that are associated with what the level in society, the societal level of the person being tied was. So the way you were tied when you were arrested had to do with what you did and where you came from within society. And your status in class, basically. That seems to make sense, taking into consideration the society. And in a lot of instances, I mean, sort of the modern father, in a lot of ways of Japanese bondage, a gentleman by the name of Itoseyu talked about going to the theater. And as part of these theatrical productions that were sort of reenacting, you know, a lot of the things that were happening in Japan, he was referencing these older tales from feudal Japan. There were these loosely done Hojujutsu ties that would have similar patterns. And he very much eroticized that and brought that to a place where it became an erotic and sadomasochistic practice. God, she's fucking smart. I know, right? Told you it'd be great. No, it's a... Why do you think I'm with him? You need to understand that, like for me, you're like my knowledge. I feel very comfortable with you using the term rope guy. Yeah, that's okay. Because I would not be preferred to be called an expert or a master or any of those things in the sense that the knowledge that's associated with this goes back years and years and years, and it can take decades and decades and decades to learn properly. And to learn, not properly, to learn all of the different aspects of the aesthetic. So for me, I've collected the knowledge that I've collected really in the course of maybe, you know, a year and a half, two years, which makes me, by my consideration, really a novice. But on an amateur level, you were doing this for years before you pursued the current path that you're on. Sure, no. And I very much believe that, I mean, I've got very strong mentors that have a very extensive background in this and have an interest in their continued learning and which includes my continued learning, which has been really a benefit. And I've been exposed to so much that most people don't have access to because the mentors that I work with, one of them is a Japanese speaker and can write in Japanese. So she translates, they collect a lot of these books. They collect a lot of books going as far back as to the late 50s, early 60s. I mean, books that aren't available for sale or publication in the United States that takes an extensive amount of effort for them to have shipped over here. Oh, wonderful. Because Japan has specific rules about pornography and shipping pornography out. So there's this whole, you know, this whole complicated process by which they procure these books. They have to come across through United States customs. And then it really becomes a process of taking a look at what was being done in the 50s, 60s and 70s, translating what is done and then using that to apply what we know about what's being done currently. And it's what prevents so much of it from being more pervasive in the West is that language barrier, that specific ability to read and understand Japanese. And not just books, but videos as well. Yeah, yeah. And it's hard because you'll watch a video and there is yet to be a video or a videographer that I've seen that can effectively capture the complexity of a lot of the ties that are done. So at some point you have to make an intuitive leap between, okay, here's what I think I see him doing. And here's how I think this works. But if you don't have a basis in what the theoretical principles are of how and why they're tying what they're tying, you can make that leap incorrectly. Mm-hmm. And if you make that leap, incorrectly, that can be when you get in trouble with either hurting somebody or having something happen that you don't anticipate. So it helps to have, because in a lot of instances, they'll be speaking while they'll be tying and it helps to have somebody who speaks Japanese to go, okay, this is what they're saying. They're saying that this is happening and this is why. Oh, great. So, I mean, I don't wanna dominate. No, no, no, please. So in, I mean, there's a lot of rope. You got a lot of knowledge. Yes. And you were doing it before you got into the Japanese rope. Yes. So what do you, I'm going to assume you're the bottom and you're the top. I said you to Tiffany is the bottom. Yes. And you to Andrew is the top. What do each of you individually get out of the experience? For me, I would akin it to any other type of BDSM play that you have. I sort of see BDSM interaction in a lot of ways as a conversation. It's an analogy that my mentors use that I've very much picked up on. It's a conversation. You're having a conversation from the top to the bottom or from the dominant to the submissive or from the master to the slave. That's about communicating something in a way that's not with words. So whether you're using a single tail or whether you're using a flogger, whether you're using a blade or whether you're using needles or whether you're using fire, whether you're using rope, you're having a conversation with that person. The more I know how to tie in, the better I am with it, the broader my vocabulary becomes. So if there's something that I specifically want to communicate to Tiffany or to anyone who is functioning as a bottom for me in a scene, and obviously knowing her, knowing the other partners that I tie, helps out a lot because I know what they like and they don't like. And their reactions. Exactly. I can communicate to them while I'm tying them. And it's a nonverbal, almost dance-like, the two best comparisons that I've come up with is it's like dance or it's like jazz. It's like a mix of jazz and pop. There's improv. Freeform jazz. It developed, but it developed, the art itself developed in a lot of the same ways that jazz developed. There are, if you watch, I mean like the Ken Burns documentary on jazz, and you take that in the context of the history of what is Japanese bonding, there are a lot of similarities between different cities in Japan tying in different ways, just like different cities in the United States play different jazz. Yeah. How specific artists, bounced off of multiple mentors and multiple instructors and how that formed new aesthetic approaches and new aesthetic abilities. Tiff? Sure. I mean, for me personally, I love the experience of bottoming. And especially when I'm with Andrew, I get to be this canvas and I get to be an expressive art form that he gets to utilize. And the different range of sensations that I can experience as a bottom by being tied based off of, it's hard to describe just the different types of ties that you can do and whether we're talking any kind of floor work or suspension, it's all so profoundly different. And frankly, I mean, people talk about subspace and getting high from a kind of BDSM experience. I've had some experience with impact play, but I would say that certain types of suspension are more intense than the kind of impact play that I've experienced. And it's a really gratifying, connective moment to be able to share with somebody. And it can be a profoundly intimate experience. And the other thing too is you can incorporate different kinds of sexual activity. Like it's not just, I tie you and we're done. I mean, it can be. I tie you, take a picture and we're done. Right, no, and it can be if that's what you're into. And depending on the space that you're in and the audience or no audience as it were, that's certainly possible. But it can also be a part of your greater sexual experience, other dynamics with BDSM. I mean, I've seen people use other sorts of things, like you can use needles and they're not my favorite, but I'm just saying like, this isn't, this can just be the foundation or the packaging that you get started with to do something. Right, it can be part of kinky CrossFit. And one of the most interesting rope scenes that, one of the most novel rope scenes that I've seen that I really sort of like, of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of the design of design of the design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design of design Conversation and everything. Yep. Completely not paying attention to her where she hung upside down and did an entire boot blocking on him while hanging upside down. And I thought it was brilliant. It was combining two types of play that you would never think of putting together. Yeah. And I don't know who it was. I should have introduced myself to him. But if he's listening and he knows who he is, kudos, because it was really smartly done. I was like, that's really interesting. That's cool. And that's after the person's been tied and suspended. So I think what a lot of people, when they look at rope, they love the after. You know, you've got this great harness, you got this whatever. But I think a lot of people have concerns about, sometimes you see a bottom that looks terribly bored and a top that looks terribly focused, but not on the bottom, but on the rope. So the moment, that's a very long process sometimes. I mean, what I can say to that is, I feel like Andrew and I have had experiences like this in the past. And what's worked well with us is, we separate time between we're playing versus we're practicing. So if we're in practice mode, I mean, I'll just probably daydream or maybe the TV will be on and I'll just sit there and watch, I don't know, Bill Maher or whatever. And he'll be practicing and he can really focus on it. And it's not to say that I'm distracted either, because he does very much rely on my feedback and how things feel and what input I can give back to him. So I don't mean to say that I'm not that distracted, but there isn't that whole scene aspect to it versus when we're doing this for play. I think both of us really switch headspace and we have a completely different experience where it isn't just about him fixating on getting this one part of this tie right and not paying attention to anything else that's going on. Because it's really easy to get into that. And it shouldn't be, we kind of had this conversation before and there's this ideal sort of level of, I think, mastery where you're talking about the interaction that happens between the dominant and the submissive or the top and the bottom. And that should be, to me in my mind, philosophically, that should be the primary. The primary needs to be the interaction. So that's thing one. I'm interacting with her, we're both enjoying ourselves. So that's sort of thing one. Thing two ends up becoming, am I using the right tie for her? And not that there's gonna be one- On the right day at the right moment. For her right emotional state. Yeah. For her right emotional state. There are times when she just needs to be held and there are ties that can do that. There are times when she needs to feel like she's flying and there are times ties that can do that. And it's knowing her well enough to be able to execute that tie when that tie is needed. And then you couple that in with the aesthetic beauty of what you're putting on top of her. So it ends up being, if you can get all of those things to work together, that's sort of the kind of level of mastery that you're shooting for. But it's really a marriage of all of those things at once. And you sort of have to build on those. And I mean, at least for me, it's A, it's understanding how that interaction happens and making sure that that interaction is the primary thing that you're doing. I mean, even if you're not an expert at Florentine flogging and you can just flog- Which by the way, I just got. Nice. Good for you. Just got it this week. Sorry. But even if you're not an expert at that, you can enjoy a scene in which you flog. And if you're flogging for your enjoyment or the enjoyment of the scene, the enjoyment of your bottoms, depending on what your interaction is, it's more about that enjoyment and less about how good you are at it. And if you become so concerned with how good you are at it, you're not concerned with your enjoyment and your bottoms enjoyment. Let me tell you, Florentine flogging, great example, is a bottom. A lot of times if you're getting hit on the backside, you don't even see what they're doing anyway. You can have this just amazing look to your Florentining. And I don't know. I don't see that you miss a beat. I mean, I'll feel it. It's a great show for everybody else. Right, no, I'll feel it if you are in a, you skip a pattern or something like that. But other than that, like you say, a lot of it, that is for show, frankly. That's true. So, I mean, when we're playing, it becomes, and it's funny because I sort of anticipated the idea of you asking the question of like, what is it that you enjoy about it? Or how I could talk someone into it. Into what is enjoyable about rope bondage. And the idea that occurred to me, because I gave a couple of days of thought to it, was the idea that as a dominant, you would, and this may or may not be your thing, you probably would enjoy picking an outfit or picking clothing for your submissive. Yeah. Picking something that you enjoy seeing them in and that you think is aesthetically pleasing. As bottom, Nancy, you like, probably like the feeling of physical contact and being held. Totally. And being held. So, And pleasing to your mistress. So I just described rope bondage. You're putting an outfit on her that you find aesthetically pleasing. That's restricting her movement in a way that you choose. And I mean, my, it's funny because we sort of talked about exes. My ex-wife summed up bondage as, it feels like a really great, very strong hug. And like, if I can tie rope that makes my bottom feel like I'm hugging them, I am loving them, and that makes them feel better and that makes them feel better and that makes them feel better. And that makes them feel better and that makes them feel better. And that makes them feel better and that makes them feel better No, but also on the bottom side, because you're like, wow, look at all that rope she has on her. How does she, how is she? Stay patient for all of that. That. So what's most intimidating about it for you? There's complete, the ignorance, my ignorance, lack of knowledge. Okay. There are, I mean, especially in Los Angeles, there are plenty of resources for places that you can go to learn. There are, I mean, if you wanted to fill up every weekend with going to a class and learning something, there are plenty of opportunities to do that. And there are places where you can make a decision of, okay, this is the best way that I learned. This is not the best way that I learned. This is something that I want to keep. This is something I want to discard. Like any other type of play, you can choose the mentor or the instructor that fits well with you. There are a lot of people that give private lessons. There are some amazing rope artists in Los Angeles that if you have the coin, because mastery doesn't usually come cheap. In anything. And are willing to pay for a lesson from you, you can get really, really intense, very well done instruction, especially in the city. But to be fair though, we've talked so much about developing mastery and going on this path and making it a lifetime experience. It doesn't have to be that way. I mean, this really can be whatever you make out of it. If what you want to do is learn how to, do a single wrist cuff and just tie somebody down spread eagle and be done with it. And that's the way you want to learn. And that's the depth or however you want to describe it. There's nothing wrong with that. And I hope that something like that shouldn't be intimidating to anybody. I mean, that's something you can pick up in a half an hour class and make sure that you're doing it safely. And that's that. And that's, and that's the thing. There are people who don't want to learn the Florentine Fog, or there are people who don't need to learn how to singletail. Or there are people who, the level of involvement that you want to get it, give it as your main thing. I mean, it doesn't have to be something that is so complex. It doesn't have to be something that is so complicated. It can be extremely simple, but you need to know the problem you want to solve with it. Any of these tools are about solving a problem. I think that like for rope specifically, it's the pretty. For a lot of people it very much is. Well, look, why can't, why can't I have the pretty? And then I go to whatever, like three things that I can do with rope. And I was like, okay, well that's pretty for that. You know, it's pretty for that. So my response to you is this, and I know that you have a little of a background in art. And I don't know if you have a background in art at all. If you look at Picasso or if you look at a Rembrandt, or if you look at, or if you listen to a very beautiful piece of music or a very beautiful piece of jazz, you can't pick up a canvas and do that. You can't just, you just can't pick up an instrument and do that. Right. That takes commitment and practice and time and talent, all of those things to do. And it's an art just like any other. It's going, it's going, you're going to get out of it what you put into it. And if you want the pretty, the pretty is out there and you can find it and you can get it. And there are, in a lot of instances, very simple ways to get to the pretty, but you have to invest time to find it. Yeah. Well, and it seems to me like, of all the different types of play out there, it seems to me like rope is one of those things where the result is equal to the amount of time and practice that you put into it. You know, it just seems to me like, you know, you can't like wake up one day and be like, and all of this awesome, ta-da. I mean, that can be said for any play though. I mean, that's the truth. And that's the thing about it. I think it's because. I have floggers on my belt. Look, I'm a dominant. I know. Don't trip on your falls. Nice, nice, well played, well played. And to be truthful, it's probably one way that I air in the same direction as a lot of the Japanese do, is I'm not terribly good with the rest of BDS and play. Like I'm gonna throw, I'm serviceable with a flogger. I can make caning happen if need be. I'll attest to that. I can do some other stuff that's not, but that's the thing that I'm good at, but that's also what draws my eye. Mm-hmm. Tips for, you know, the, just let, let's say, you know, I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. I'm a good flogger. We're just, we're gonna do this basic stuff, and then we're gonna get into philosophy. So tips for people that are like interested in rope, and should they go to FetLife and find classes, or should they, you know, because everybody I know is like, I wanna do, I wanna do rope. I'm gonna buy $500 worth of rope. And it's like, why would you do that? I wouldn't have rope if it weren't, was not given to me. I will say that flat out. Well, and also tips for bottoming, for not having that experience. I mean, I- How do you know if it's wrong? Yeah, how do you know? Well, it's hard. The easiest way to, well, there's nothing really wrong. I don't wanna say it that way. I don't think that's a good characterization. How do you know that this isn't going to work out for you physically, or can injure you, or doesn't feel well? In short, the quickest way I figured that out was, I have been very fortunate to have been tied by a handful of people who are, I would consider penultimate experts. And to have somebody do that and go, oh, so that's how it can really feel like. And then from there you can kind of back off. But then again, that's something that's lucky. The problem is- Yeah, that's just sheer dumb luck on my part. The problem is how do you find somebody who's gonna do that? I mean- Right, and honestly, I think if you're a novice and you're being tied by somebody who's a novice, if you communicate, if you're patient, that in and of itself, there's no real wrong way. I mean, the only thing you really need to be careful about, is loss of feeling, pins and needles, nerve compression. I mean, that's really the, I mean, Andrew is probably itching to do a safety talk here in a second. But I mean, that's really as a bottom, the one thing I would say you really do have to be mindful of. And yes, you may be a slave or submissive, but if you're learning together, this is something you really do need to speak up about, because how are they supposed to know? No, I agree. Hey, it's not apparent. No, and especially when you're dealing with somebody with like, let's say, bilateral carpal tunnel, which is incredibly common in females in the world today. So exactly. And they should feel free to communicate that. And I guess my response to you of like, how do you know? How do you know with any other play that you're about to engage in with a stranger? Right. You know, because you talk to them, you know, because you negotiate with them, you know, because you ask them questions and you have them ask you questions. The questions that you ask are very important. References from other people. References from other people. How do you make any decision to go into any type of play with anyone that you would in any sort of BDSM scenario? It's the same process. Anyone who is, by my experience, an expert at what they do, or is at least good or serviceable at what they do, is entirely comfortable and used to those questions. They're entirely comfortable with the idea of you asking, what's this for? How does this work? What are we planning on doing? Let's negotiate this out. It should be a real warning sign if somebody is getting squeamish about you asking questions. Or defensive. If you say that, well, I feel uncomfortable with this. And their reaction is something along the lines of, well, you're not doing it right. You're a terrible bottom. And I am Lord Sir Tobly Dom, and I've been doing this for 55 years. You will do what I say. You're just a terrible submissive. I equate that argument to the idea of me shooting you with a gun and going, oh, I'm going to shoot you. And you're going, well, you just don't catch a bullet right, do you? I mean, you're terrible at catching bullets. Why didn't you dodge? A couple of the basic things that I would throw out. First and foremost, I would ask to see that person's kit, what they're bringing with them. How organized is it? How clean is it? An organized kit is indicative of an organized mind. I would ask them about safety and what their preparation for safety is for the scene. And then I would say to who's reputable person who interacts with rope should have either a pair of safety shears, medical safety shears have blunted ends so they won't cut skin when they're used next to skin, or they should have some sort of climbing cutting device, which is sort of the focus of the fantasy. Which is Andrew's, yeah, waving around in this. But I have in front of me. And you should ask them if they've ever cut rope with it. That's a good question. I think it's a super important question, because what you do, because what you don't want to put yourself in the hands of is a dominant who thinks that the rope that they have is more important than your safety. Any one of us should be prepared to cut any rope at any time if that's what needs to happen in order to protect the safety of our bottom. And they should have practiced. Like I know how this rope, I know how this particular shear cuts. I know how it cuts every single type of rope that you have in front of you. I know what it's gonna take to cut that rope as quickly as it needs to be cut in order to bring someone to safety. Well, you know, and we're talking about safety. And I think that's something quite sad. A friend of mine is a bondage model. Well, not bondage, I should say spanking mostly. But she started branching out into doing bondage. And she just very recently had a quite miserable experience with somebody who had professed to be an experienced rope top. And she called me practically crying, saying that I lost all feeling in my arms and I have bruises. And I'm sitting here, I'm thinking bruises. Well, I mean, a lot of times, you'll get these very fine, striated red marks. They're called patechia. Exactly. That from just pressure of the rope, they're extremely superficial and they go away quite easily. They kind of look cool, I think. But I mean, but when I saw her arm the next day, I just shook my head and I said, you know, girl, this is not right. I don't know what this person said to you. And the thing that was really telling is that his response to her was, oh, well, you're just not hardcore enough of a bottom to tolerate this kind of tie. And I'm just thinking, this is a guy who's just making excuses for being inept. And frankly, the response is for somebody who doesn't get tied a lot or someone who hasn't been tied, if it's your first time being tied or if it's your first time tying, know what your limits are. Know what's gonna work for you and what isn't. And discuss that out ahead of time. I mean... Yeah, and I told her I was proud of her that she ended the scene and was like, look, I can't do this anymore. We need to stop. This is not right. Absolutely. And at first, she kind of felt guilty about it. Like, she asked me, am I being ridiculous? Am I being hyperbolic here? And especially, especially upon physically seeing her afterwards? No, I mean, there's... I think a lot of bottoms have issues with coloring out. And to do so, I think, takes a great deal of strength. Yes, absolutely. And I think it's, funnily enough, I think it's one of the, there's sort of this experience that I've had in the BDSM community in general, with people saying, oh, you're a rope person. And rope people are different than other people. And part of one of those demarcations that I think exists, they're rope people. And rope people are different in the fact that, in a lot of instances, we crave that verbal feedback from the person who is our bottom. Like, it's okay for Tiffany to criticize me. I have another partner that I tie with on a regular basis, and she also ties. And it's okay for her to tell me, you know, this thing that you did didn't quite work. The way, there's this whole feedback loop that creates a situation that makes me a better top, in learning, okay, for this bottom, this is what she enjoys, this is what she's capable of, and this is really the approach that I need to have with her. And that sort of feedback is kind of essential, not only for my learning, but for my relationships and with the people that I play with. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great, it's a great approach to anything. I mean, especially as a top, to be able to be open to feedback is the only way you're really gonna learn. And I think a lot of people are terrified of that. I mean, it's difficult because, especially, you know, it's a lot of people who are like, I'm not gonna do this. Especially if, you know, from- It's an ego-driven sexuality. It's a sexuality that's, primary principle is that one person is better than another for a certain amount of time. Right. And that's inherently about feeding someone's ego or subduing someone's ego. Yeah. So if you're feeding your own ego, and if you're in that top space, you know, I wanna be Lord, Sir Domley Dom of the SS Toppington. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. specifically. Sure. You had said, I don't know if it was on the air, but earlier you definitely had said that it come from the idea of that it is about public shaming. There's a big piece of it that has to do with public shaming. There's in sort of, we had alluded to the fact that in a lot of ways, being tied in Japanese culture is akin to what a Westerner would experience in being arrested. There's a lot of humiliation and shame play that goes into the way that the Japanese play, specifically with the male-female dynamic. It is considered by a lot of people, and there are obviously always exceptions to the rule. There are certain considerations and broad statements we can make about Western culture, Eastern culture, whatever. In general, the reaction to it is one that is shameful. And it's a lot of people who are in the same situation. I think that's a lot of people who are in the same situation. It's weird because it's a different dynamic than what you experience in the West because most of the bottoms that I tie aren't terribly ashamed of being tied. Raise his hand. They're not. It's a different environment. But if you watch a lot, if you watch Japanese interactions, if you watch Japanese performance, if you watch videos that come from Japan, there's sort of this seductive, like, you're fully clothed. And then I tie you. And then I start to reveal things about you. Like, physical things about you that you would consider shameful. That's when I start. I tie you and then I start taking your clothes off. Then I open your kimono to expose your breasts. Or I slowly slide your skirt up to expose your underwear. And then I force you to orgasm. And that's just unbelievably shameful. Yeah. And I'm being tied in this very shameful position and I'm being forced to orgasm. And how horrible is that for me? And it's a very... It was funny when I first started learning and I first started interacting with Japanese books. It's one of the things that I noted. I'm like starting to open up things and looking at them like, why do the girls always look so sad? Absolutely just downcast faces. Like, they're about to cry. And especially the schoolgirl aesthetic. Let's not forget that that's also... We make stereotypes about that, but it is somewhat popular. And so you see, it looks like a girl who's basically been sent to her room who's pouting and looking quite depressed. Chastised. Pretty much. Very much so. And the Japanese actually have a word for it. It's called suchinawa. It's sort of this shame that's associated with being tied. And it's a big portion of their playing. It's something that's really been difficult for me as a Westerner to wrap my head around. Because I'm not someone who uses rope to shame. It's not part of my intent when I play. So to see how specific acts are sort of acted out. It becomes difficult to sort of rationalize the two against each other. Versus I think in Western culture, especially in pornography, from being friends with and just sort of watching and understanding how a lot of the business works. There is a good degree of female empowerment that a lot of times it's women who command the higher pay, women who call the shots on what can and can't be done. They're generally the focus of a lot of shots. Now I'm speaking specifically heterosexual, porn. But there is that empowerment. And then you don't, but you don't see that in a lot of stuff coming out of Japan. So then, I mean, because I see the American shibari and all the pretty. Sure. And to me, I see very much so a component of objectification, where you almost don't see the person, you see the rope. See, and that sort of becomes this tendency to, you know, photograph or video the process of being tied or the end result of being tied and not the process, or I'm sorry, the end result of what's happening and not the process of having it happen. Right. It's like fetishizing the image versus experiencing a process. Sure. Or it's like the fetishization. I would almost make it a comparison to people who are into rubber or latex. That enclosure and that tactile sensation is never something that you're going to be able to do. Yeah. You're not going to be able to experience from a video or from a photo. Right. But there's very much a specific aesthetic look that goes along with it that is in a lot of ways objectifying. But for a lot of people, if you talk to them who are into that sort of fetish, it's about the tactile sensation. It's about the sound. It's about the smell. It's about the feel. Yes, it's about the look, but you can only sort of get one flavor of that through the type of media that would exist in pornography, the type of media that would exist in the media that would exist in a place like Fat Life, from photos, from videos, from anything like that. If you watch a lot of the scenes or performances that come out of Japan, I think a lot of us forget that rope can be used in a very sadistic manner. Rope, and especially for their culture, is a very sadomasochistic activity that is used to hurt people. And I've seen scenes that have been done by folks in Japan. You've experienced that. You've experienced scenes yourself. I've experienced scenes. Andrew got suspended pretty sadistically at Folsom last year. Yeah, and had the person that I was working with was a top that I was experienced with. For those of you who know him, his name's Max BLC. He's out of Seattle. He was somebody that I knew and trusted, and he said, hey, do you want... I believe his quote was, I haven't tied up a boy. I'm looking to tie up a boy today. And I'm like, I'm a boy. And I just start clapping my hands, and I go, yes, you have to do this. And the first thing that he did... The first thing that he did after he laid me on the ground was he did a simple partial suspension on my left leg that was sort of right below the knee and above the calf. And he pulled it at such an angle where nothing on the rest of me, everything on the rest of me was fine. That one point, the longer it stayed there, the more it hurt. And he did it because he knew that it was going to start bothering me. And he wanted to see how long I would stay there. And he did it because of the way of the Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam Styrofoam other girlfriend and this was her first time actually being completely suspended and he was so loving and caring and just right up until the part where he had her up on her toes tied by her hair that wasn't so loving and caring but you know what i'm getting at though it wasn't nearly it was not nearly it was well and you know you make a crack about loving hair pull actually um a lot of times in suspension um your neck gets very tired because your head gets very heavy and as somebody who has ridiculously long hair it's actually helpful to have the entirety of your hair tied into a tie because then you can kind of lean back and relax your neck finally it looks sometimes a lot worse than it actually is in practice and you think oh thank god now i can the other way to solve that problem if they have short hair is just run the rope through their mouth no whatever it both keeps them quiet and helps us! win-win indeed indeed so then would you both categorize rope in general as a far more of a mental component of bdsm it can be or not it can be it can and that's the thing that attracts me to it it can be what you want it to be it can be functional it can be pretty it can be sadistic it can be um mental it can be it's it's how much rope you use and what tie you choose depends on how your bottom line is and how you're going to tie it to your neck so it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it rope, it's just a pile of fiber laying in a heap. It has no form. It has no intention. You as the human being have to give it all of that life. So whatever you make out of it is what it becomes. And you should... I know, doesn't it smell amazing? That was beautifully said. Thank you, thank you. But it's... She keeps smelling the rope. It's like a freshly mown field. It's not going to help the folks at home but I'm happy to put some of that on you if you're interested. I don't even know what to say to this. What? Wow, somebody's having an experience here. And I've confused her. Some things are easier to do than others. So... What's... You're going to continue on this Japanese journey. What's your big next plateau that you want to hit? There isn't a big... Okay, so for me the idea in my processes is this idea of helping to continue to keep the art alive. And one of the things that's very important in any art as a whole is that it continues to reinvent itself. It continues to blow itself up and remake itself. It continues to... to not sort of become... It's not a historical piece. It's a living, breathing thing. So to continue to do that you need to have a, obviously, a grounding in the historical basis of where the art comes from. You need to have an understanding of what's happening now. And through the understanding of those two things you can create your own aesthetic. You can create the thing that's sort of yours. So for me in my process I'm still going through the understanding of the... the historical context and the current development of the art as I watch it. For me the ultimate goal is to be in a place where my experience is such where I can help contribute to the growing of the art as a whole. And Shibari Khan's in May. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We are going to Shibari Khan in May. That is the thing that we're doing. And are you going to learn or to display or to... We don't really know. This is the first time either one of us... I'm going to go to Chicago. I'm going to go to Chicago and eat awesome food which they have in Chicago. Yes they do. Don't forget the museum. I'm also going to hang out with some awesome friends that I've already made in the rope community. And an awesome high school friend of mine that I adore. And awesome roller derby friends of mine that I've known for forever. So it's going to be... There are a bunch of... Zamil who's a European performer is teaching there. I had the ability to meet that guy, house him in my house, talk with him about theory. He's super cool. He's one of Osada Steve's former protégés. He's an amazing performer. I get to see him. Great answer who hosted the group. He's going to be there and he's going to be teaching. Michael Saul, one of the instructors from Los Angeles is going to be there. They're going to be instructors that have seen their work that I'm really interested in talking to. People like Dr. Phil. Wait, like the Dr. Phil? No, no, no. Different Dr. Phil. He's a little off. So far he's fallen after that whole scam. Different Dr. Phil. I think he would say that it was bad. You people are sick. There's something wrong with you. I think that Dr. Phil would say as long as you're not hurting someone and as long as you're both enjoying it and as long as it's consensual, you two just go ahead and have fun. Or three. Or seven. Or 14. But that's it. I want to know about an experience that went bad. An experience that went bad. Remember when we did the photo shoot for the book and I was kind of freaking out? Okay, so Tiffany is married to someone who's not me. Thank you. Everyone be shocked. My wonderful, wonderful husband. At the time she was engaged. They were engaged when Tiffany and I first started dating. And as a wedding gift to the two of them, I decided, to make him a photography book of bondage photos that I thought that he would enjoy. I flew in a friend of mine who is a photographer from Portland. We hired a professional makeup artist. I rented a photo space. We got all the equipment that he needed. I did the tying. He did the shooting. We did a whole sort of eight hour day of it. There was easily a good seven hours of shoots and poses before then we decided, hey, let's do a suspension. And here's the real error that I made. And this is the thing that I learned. Work backwards from the most strenuous tie to the least strenuous tie. Don't start and have an entire day of her sitting, having makeup put on, all the stuff being set up, us posing her, her being in these various different ties that not all of them were terribly strenuous. But let me tell you, what looks good for the camera does not necessarily feel good for you. And there's definitely, there's, understand there's definitely a difference between, between tying for a camera and tying for a photo shoot and necessarily tying for your enjoyment, like making sure that something is perfect and every little knot is in place and every little rope is in place and all of that stuff looks great. That's something that is not sexy. That is not sexy. There was no eroticism at all on the set. And the mistake, the literal mistake that I made was that I did the most strenuous tie last and I should have done the most strenuous tie first. And she experienced a drop that was, it wasn't a nerve compression. Nothing sort of went numb. There was no circulation issues. There was no sort of physical injury that happened to her. But what happened was simply a sudden exhaustion. Like she was done. The day was done. Like I was pretty much just shaking on the couch. It was like, you need to. So nauseous I couldn't move. Like you need to pick me up and carry me home. Profoundly ill. I'm exhausted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't like made sure that there was food there, made sure that there was plenty of liquid there, like sort of did all of those things. And it was just the stress of sort of doing that for seven or eight hours straight completely wiped her out. So, you know, big lesson learned from that is, is if you're going to do something for eight, A, I wouldn't recommend doing something for eight hours. It was a novice stupid thing that I did. And this is, we can't say that we're stupid and we make mistakes. No, I say it all the time. Yeah. I was. I write about it all the time. I was dumb. I was dumb. The book looks awesome though. I'm not going to lie. I was, I was dumb and did a dumb thing. Oh no, understand the book looks beautiful. The photos were amazing. I cannot give enough credit to the friend of mine who shot it. But in retrospect, A, I bit off more than I could chew. I was going into an area that I didn't know enough about. I planned things that I thought would work without the knowledge to plan those. I overestimated my capability. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. And as a bottom, I was pushing him because I wanted to have it done. And I'm like, I'm not walking out of here until I get the suspension photo. Like that's what I want to have done on this too. And I was very much a part of it. I mean, it wasn't just him pressuring me. I was the, he almost called quits and I said, no, let's do this. And I wasn't even thinking about, hey, maybe I've been sitting here for almost seven hours and I'm exhausted. No, I just, this is what I wanted to do and I'm very goal oriented and I'm extremely stubborn and yeah. We are way out of time. This was fantastic. I mean, I would love to have you guys on again to get more into the deeper philosophies, but Andrew and Tiffany, fantastic. Do you want to pimp your fat lives or anything? Man, I'm... Okay, well. I was about to say, I'm epipelagic on fat life. I'm Charlie underscore frown. I love that so much. And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The love bite. I'm Insidious Muse and... And this is Service Lab. Bye. Sorry, we went over.