And I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair, it's a fair quest, quest, question. Hello, this is Vic Cohen broadcasting live from Skid Row Studios from gorgeous. And yes, it is gorgeous. Downtown Los Angeles's Skid Row Studios. the name of the show is it's a fair question because on this show every question is a fair question there's no question that is ever too personal or ever off limits and i have to say tonight's show is unlike any i have ever done before and i'm very excited about it normally on the show i bring in people who i've worked with uh people in my kind of like the inner circle of my life here in los angeles and oftentimes they're people who work in the entertainment business the show isn't limited to entertainment people it's just those are the people i mostly interact with and i find that they often have great stories and really that's what this show is about great stories and finding out the truth behind these people that i find so interesting the stories that that i often and you don't often know about because we don't just share everything we're thinking with everyone correct we kind of keep a lot of that to ourselves and that's what part of it's a fair question is all about asking some fair questions to get to the truth and tonight we're going to find the truth in a story that just really touches me a guest who touches me and i don't mean that in the literal way he's never actually touched me as much as i may like him to his he's a fascinating guy i ran into him i was doing a comedy piece on uh the boardwalk in venice and it was a bit a comedy bit where i was having short bald men hug me i had a big sign begging for this and this guy was a big fan of mine and i was like oh my god i'm gonna find the truth and i'm gonna find the truth and i'm gonna find the truth and i'm gonna find the truth and i'm gonna find the truth and his wife was there and his young son and he gave me a wonderful hug now that is not why i'm talking to him right now but the reason i'm talking to him is because it's kind of we struck up a bit of a friendship and that's kind of the cool thing right don't you think with facebook and with the social media is that it allows us and allows me to become friends with people that otherwise i just wouldn't have the opportunity to develop that kind of relationship because this guest the guest you're about to meet actually doesn't live here in los angeles he was on vacation and he was on vacation from milwaukee wisconsin and not only did i find him fascinating because he looked so much like me being a short bald man but i found his story with his son his family life fascinating and over these three years since i met him and being his facebook friend i would see these gorgeous photos of his family and i have never seen the kind of love that this guy has for his son with any parent i've ever seen and it's really it's beautiful and it's always struck me and i felt like when i was thinking of a guest for tonight thinking this guy would really be special special to introduce to you and special for me to get to know a little better and i have him on the line right now from milwaukee wisconsin scott borken are you there i am here how are you sir i'm here i'm here i'm here i'm here i'm here i'm great how are you i'm well do you like being called sir for sure now it sounds like you're in the ocean with all that background noise is that just mindy i'm talking to mindy our producer is that just what we have to live with that's just the the wonderful telephone microphone that he's talking to you know what i'm gonna take it off and just go with the regular phone hold on a second oh okay oh all right does this sound better oh my god that might be a little better i can work with yeah i was using my wife's phone yeah stay you know what your wife's out of town right she is actually in california okay well stay away from her stuff okay that's for her stay out of her stuff so i was just saying uh before you joined us how we had met at the beach and uh you gave me a big hug for my big bit and how that kind of struck up a friendship and how i was telling everyone uh listening how interesting i have found your relationship with your son in particular you and how old is jacob jacob is seven okay and so when i saw him he was probably four i'm guessing yeah yeah and how would you describe jacob uh probably the most amazing kid you ever could meet got a personality that just would light up a room uh he just just an amazing kid every every day he amazes me and anything in particular that amazes you um i mean he he does have down syndrome right and i just i don't look at him any different than any other father would look at their their son when and that's and that's the part of the story that makes it particularly um i find interesting and I don't think people really, I don't hear a lot of stories about the relationship between parents and a child with Down Syndrome. You know, I don't think that's, it's not considered obviously like sexy and it's not something people really like to talk about. I find. Do you agree with me, Scott? You know, if it was 20, 25, 30 years ago, I'd have to say, yeah, I agree with you. But times have changed. People have become more educated and understand what Down Syndrome is. Well, without getting too scientific, in 30 seconds, tell me what Down Syndrome is. Down Syndrome, Childhood Down Syndrome has an extra chromosome on the 21st chromosome, which they grow, they are predominantly smaller in stature and cognitively they have a delay. They just basically have a double disability on cognitively my words again, don't move up. A cognitive disability that they just learn slower. Right, but they can still. They can still. They can still. They can do anything that they want and they can make a parent very proud. Well, before, I'd like to get a sense of where your life was prior to Jacob being born. Okay, you had done what? 20 years in state prison? That's a joke. 25, actually. Okay, no, that was just a joke. You were working as a manager of a very popular restaurant, custard store in Milwaukee, correct? In the Milwaukee area? Yeah. And I've been, I mean, I started doing that when I was 14 years old. I never left. I did all the way through high school, through college, and just stuck it out. Stuck it out. Now, you're married, correct? Yep. And how long have you been married? We got married in 2004. Now, when you say we, you mean you and your wife, not you and me. Yeah. Because we are not, I'm telling you. My wife and I have been married. You and I, well, that's a different story. That's right. We're still working on it. Yeah. So, did you say 2004? Yeah. Okay, so that's nine years. Mm-hmm. So, how old were you when you got married? I was 39. And first marriage? First marriage. Her first marriage? Her first marriage also. So, it's a big, I'm not to say second marriages are less of a big deal, but you found your partner for the rest of your life. Is that fair to say? Yes, I did. Okay. Okay. And so, you get married. Was the life plan for both of you to have children relatively soon? Yes. And were you working on that when your wife became pregnant with Jacob? Yeah. We had planned to start having children right away. And we tried and tried and tried, and we weren't having the best of luck. And just out of nowhere, she got pregnant. Were you using fertility drugs? Yeah. And the funny thing is, that following week, she was going to start taking the fertility drug, and obviously, we didn't need it. So she got pregnant basically on her own. And so you were 41 when she got pregnant? Is that right? Correct. And is she your same age? She's almost two years younger. Okay. So when she got pregnant, she was 39? Yep. And so being that you're both a little older, you had all the genetic testing done to see whether your pregnancy was going to be healthy? We didn't go for the full genetic testing where they take the fluid and have that- Ambionic fluid, I think it's called. Yes. But we had a 4D ultrasound. Her doctor- Excuse me. Wait, hold back up one second. Did you say a 4D? Is that what you said? 4D ultrasound. What does that mean for those who don't know? That is probably one of the coolest ultrasounds you ever can imagine. GE makes this machine that basically, 3D or 4D? I think it was 4D where you can basically see the face, see the face, see the arm, see the hand. Okay. I've seen those before. It's freaky, isn't it? Yeah. It's wild. So you had- So we had the ultrasound done, and there was absolutely no detection. In fact, this was only the second- Yeah. First that her doctor has delivered that he did not catch that the child had Down syndrome. Now, what was the reason that you chose not to have all of the testing done? Is that because when you do the Ambionic, I don't know if I'm saying that word right, but the Ambionic- I believe so. Fluid, that can cause a problem with the child and you didn't want to risk that? Exactly. Okay. Exactly. So you're really doing it to be conservative for the safety of the child, unborn child? Yeah. So, but you had every other test done that was available to you? Correct. And so what day was Jacob born? He was born February 12th. So he's Aquarius? Pisces. Is he? Well, I'm Aquarius. I'm the 16th. I was in Aquarius. He's close. I know what I am. I don't know what you- We are very good, we Aquarians. I don't know, perhaps he's not an Aquarian, but the 16th is Aquarius, because that's my birthday. He probably is. So what happens that day? Your wife, typical kind of story? Well, she went into labor and- Where were you? She was in labor for 12 hours and was supposed to deliver naturally. Where were you? Well, where were you when she gave birth? Or, not gave birth, but when she started going to labor? I was actually at work. Okay. And she called me and said, I'm in labor. This is it? Well, obviously I started panicking like crazy. She's like, calm down. It's going to be a while. Just get home as soon as you can. And I mean, I actually, I came home and we drove to the hospital. So she was in labor for 12 hours. Okay. And I'm going to hold on one minute, Scott. Okay. For those of, I just want to remind you all that I'm talking to Scott Borkin. He's giving me the play by play of the day his beautiful child, Jacob, was born. And we are going to talk, this is what we call, of course, a little tease. We're going to talk, Scott, to your wife in a little bit. As you know, I spoke to her briefly before the show and she wanted to be a part of this. I wanted her to be a part of it as well. Actually, it was my idea. Yeah. But she was very happy to be a part of it. And actually it was your idea as well when we talked about this earlier. So I just wanted to let you all know that we're going to be talking to Scott's wife a little bit later. So make sure you stick around for that too, because that's going to be an incredible conversation as well. So here we are. You're getting a call from your wife saying, I'm going into labor and get your butt over here, but don't rush too fast because I'm going to be in labor for a little bit longer. And I'm going to be in labor for a little bit longer. So I'm going to be in labor for a little bit longer. So you're going to be in labor for a little bit longer because it's going to be a while. Yeah. So you, you like the guy you see in the sitcoms, uh, tripping over everything and, and going crazy? Um, when I was leaving work, I was, maybe I was that way when I got home also, but okay, so you get to the hospital, what hospital is this? Uh, St. Joe's. Is that the big, big hospital? The hospital were probably 80% of anyone in the Milwaukee area is born. Is that downtown? That's where I was born. That's where you were born. Is that downtown? Yeah. Uh, it's, no, it's on kind of the west side of Milwaukee. Okay. So you rush over there, you're, and now you, your wife embarks on and then you're with her by her side for 12 hours? Yes. And everything's going smoothly? Um, what she was going to deliver naturally and finally at the 12th hour, uh, Jacob's heart rate started dropping. So the doctor came in and said, you know, let's do a C-section. Now that's pretty common, correct? Uh, yeah. I mean, that wouldn't be an attributing factor to the Down syndrome. No, not at all. Not at all. So the doctor doing the delivering says we should move a little faster since the heartbeat's getting a little slower. Let's do a C-section. Correct. Okay. And I assume then that went fine, correct? Yeah, it was just perfect. Um, the doctor delivered him and you know, obviously he starts crying. And then he's like, I'm going to go to the hospital. And now when you say he starts crying, it's not the doctor. It's Jacob. No, no, it was Jacob. Yeah, of course. Okay. Go ahead. Yes. Okay. So, uh, the doctor hands Jacob to me and obviously I'm at the highest high I've ever had in my entire life. It was just, I can't even explain the feeling. It was like a euphoria. I was just, it was the best thing that you ever can imagine. The doctor hands Jacob to me. And he says, I believe your son has Down syndrome. Well, obviously you go from that highest high to the lowest low because you're in shock. And I really didn't know a lot about Down syndrome at that moment. So it was a, it was pretty an emotional, uh, uh, you know, few minutes there. What, what were your thoughts? I didn't know. I, I can't even explain it. Everything went from extremely bright to extremely dark. Um, I just, uh, I guess not knowing what the future was going to be now. Um, you know, what was going to happen to my son? I just, I guess it just, I had just such fear because I didn't know I had the unknown thrown at me. And what would you think? And what would you think being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being being she's sedated correct she would when you have a c-section you're awake that's how much I'm about birth okay clearly not a father or I could be I could be a well yeah I guess I could be a father right but never been around the c-section yeah I always want to go in but they stopped me I guess you have to know someone getting it so anyways so yes so she was awake so she heard this as well right and I see she she broke down because it's such an emotional moment just having a child and unfortunately this doctor that did the delivery her doctor was not on that day so we had another doctor that had zero bedside manner zero personality zero bedside manner so the way he went about telling us and telling me I just I I I!<|en|> c-section me I just you know in the end I think wow you know I think things would have been a little bit different or the emotions would have been a little bit different if he had a little bit more compassion but there was none yeah that's no one wants to hear that and probably no one wants to hear it I would you know in any way yeah correct but there certainly is a problem a more sensitive way of doing it yeah so what happened next um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um um checking him out, and we found out a couple hours later that he had what they call a duodenal, I think that's how it's pronounced, a duodenal artesia, where he actually had a blockage in his intestines. The pancreas grew around his intestines. So when they tried feeding him, everything came back up. So within the 12 hours after he was born, they ended up taking him from St. Joe's to a children's hospital that was not very far away. It's a children's hospital in Milwaukee. They were going to eventually have to do surgery to bypass his intestines. So I have my wife that's still in the hospital because she had to go to the hospital. The C-section. I have Jacob that was taken to the children's hospital, and I was jumping back and forth between the two hospitals and home. And they normally can do surgery like that right away, but kids with Down syndrome usually are born with lower red blood cells. So they had to wait till his blood cells, I believe red or white blood cells, they had to wait till the blood cells the count came up. Well, two weeks later, the count finally came up and they did the surgery and everything went extremely perfect. But the whole time he was, you know, my wife finally got out of the hospital and we were living at home and he was at Children's Hospital recovering. They told us that there's a chance that he might not come home until he's two months old. And let me, um, I want to just interrupt you for a moment. I apologize, but I really want the, it obviously there's a lot of medical stuff going on with him. And I'm curious how you and your wife are handling this emotionally and what you're thinking. You know, you're almost thrown into overdrive when something that is put in front of you, you, you just, you just kind of keep rolling along. Obviously you have moments where you just feel exhaustion and anxiety, but I really don't remember any time that we just had extreme breakdown. We just kept going. The, uh, the doctors at Children's Hospital, just amazing. The, the nurse nursing staff was just amazing. So we had a very positive experience. We had a very, uh, you know, a positive feedback every time we'd go to see Jacob in the hospital. Well, here's what I'm also, I mean, there's a lot I'm curious about. Um, and part of the show, the tone of this show is about honesty. And I try to, as best I can to also live by that. I don't just expect that of my guests. I'd like to as well share my honest thoughts, uh, and feelings. And I want to know, Scott, you know, I, honestly, I feel, I feel sorry for you. And I'm wondering, am I, am I, is there, am I stupid? And that's stupid, but are you happy? I mean, I look at these photos of you and Jacob today at seven years old and I just think, I just see so much love and happiness and yet sometimes I will still feel sadness. And I'm just wondering, can you help me with this? And I'm just wondering, help me with that? Am I, I wouldn't say it's a wrong feeling, but tell me. Yeah. Because you're not in my shoes, you wouldn't understand, but I mean, I can help you understand. I want you to help me because I want to understand. I think what you have with your son, and I'm sure your wife has it. We're going to talk to her shortly, is really special. I don't want you to feel sorry because there is absolutely nothing, nothing at all to feel sorry about. Jacob is the most amazing kid I've ever seen. He is, there's, there's just something about him that he attracts. He just will light up a room like nobody's business. There's absolutely nothing to be sorry about because he's just, it's such a blessing. They have in our lives. Your life has, has, uh, become brighter because of him being in it. Oh, I'd say a hundred percent. Obviously my wife has a little something to do with that too, but Jacob, Jacob definitely, definitely throws sunshine in our faces every day. I read a statistic that I found really disheartening. And by the way, thank you. That does make me feel better. Because also, you know, I think like, what am I some kind of ass I'm feeling sorry for you. And you're running around having a great life with Jacob and your wife and, and living life to its fullest. And, and just in, you've got this brightness from him. What am I, you know, it's like you said, I'm not in your shoes and it's very easy to make, uh, thought decisions and judgments. You know, I'll tell you why also, uh, because you know, when someone's pregnant, they always say, you say, well, what do you want? You want a boy or a girl? And they say, well, as long as it's a boy or a girl, you want a boy or a girl. And they say, well, as long as it's a boy or a girl, that's healthy is, you know, and Jacob wasn't born healthy in the sense of what that usually Cause when people say that they're talking about down syndrome or something like that's really challenging for a kid. And you've, you've had, you've been forced to face that and you do it. So, um, I wouldn't say effortlessly cause I don't see you every day, but seemingly, um, naturally. and it's really fascinating, actually. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people don't realize that. You know, he's a person first. He's a boy. He, fortunately, just like any other child that's born, does not have any physical problems. There's kids that are born every day that don't have a cognitive delay, that do have problems. We're very fortunate that, you know, everything with him is, it's all good to go. You're talking about, like, other medical problems. Yeah, because when you say, you know, as long as the baby's healthy, Jacob is healthy. He's a healthy little 7-year-old boy that has become CEO of the house. He's in control, just like every other 7-year-old. Yeah, go on. When you think about health-wise, I look at it that, you know, if the child's got some type of, I shouldn't say, like, disease or something that is going to prevent them from growing or prevent them from doing certain things, that's getting, you know, the child's going to need medical attention. I think, you know, that's, you know, you want the child to be healthy. Well, Jacob is a healthy. He's a healthy little boy. Well, you know, it's interesting listening to you talk because I believe you. You know, and then there's this, it's kind of, again, I'm being totally honest, and it's embarrassing to share this with you, but to be totally transparent, I'm thinking to myself, well, Scott, just trying to make the best of a bad situation. And I'm wondering, do you ever think that? Or do you not think of it as a bad situation? Because it sounds like you don't. I think of it as an amazing situation. There's nothing bad. There's absolutely nothing bad about my life, about Jacob, about anything that we have right now in front of us. It's just, I mean, it's all good. Is it shocking for you to say that and feel it, as I know you do, when you think of how you felt that day in the delivery room? You know, I shouldn't say, I can't say shocking. I've come into, I guess, into my reality of what life is all about. I guess I visioned because I was not aware about anything with Down syndrome. That night that Jacob was born, I finally made it home about 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning, and I spent three hours in front of my computer on the Internet, searching Down syndrome. It was the biggest mistake, and the biggest mistake I ever could have done, because you read, read, read, and there's negatives thrown at you. But until you live it, you realize that that's just a lot of medical talk that you don't understand. Well, my understanding from our conversations are that Jacob loves movies. He has favorite movies. He's fighting for your iPad. Is that right? Well, it was my iPad. It's his now, essentially? It basically has been his probably three or four months after I got it. So the cognition is developed enough where he knows what he likes, what he wants? Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, he's in first grade, and, you know, there's milestones. That he doesn't meet right away. But eventually, he hits them. You're talking about educational milestones? Education, yeah. And it's just the basic milestones to begin with. But he's in first grade. He's got a lot of friends. When you say friends, you're talking about typical kids who don't have Down syndrome as well, correct? Correct. He's learning right along with them. I mean, our goal for him is to have full inclusion, not separation. So he's with peers every day. Is he getting bullied? No. It's amazing how things are different from when we grew up. I'll take him shopping. And... All of a sudden... A couple kids come out of nowhere. Hey, Jacob. Hey, Jacob. And he goes to school with these kids. And they're all, like, hugging him and saying hi and giving him high fives. And I don't know. You know, the parents come up to me and say, oh, they're in the same class. Because I don't know who the kids are. But that's what Jacob's life's all about. Right. So he's got a typical... In many ways, his life is like any other first grader. Exactly. Now, in a moment, Scott, I want to include your wife in this conversation. And as I had mentioned, because of the way we have things set up here, technically, you two won't be on the line together here on the show for very long. I'm going to bring her in and have her call in a moment. And you guys will be on for a moment. And then she's... You're going to... I'm going to say goodbye for you. But stick around. We might give you a call back. We'll see where we go with your wife. But what would be something that you want me to leave with, as well as all of the... All of the... All of those listening, leave with? I guess when you see somebody that's a little bit different, or somebody that is cognitively behind a little bit, don't second-guess them. Because they have something about them that will amaze you. Their future is as bright as... Anybody else. They're just... I mean, they're a person. They're a woman. They're a man. They're a boy. They're a girl. They are... They're a person first. I want to... I'm thanking... Thank you for sharing that idea. And obviously, I mean, you're sharing... You've shared that with some examples of the personality that obviously Jacob has. And before you go, I want your wife to call. Madeline... Madeline, if you can give us a call. Is she on the line? I'm talking to... Okay, great. Thank you. She's talking to our producer. And yeah, if you could give us a call. Madeline, number is 800-893-9562. If you're available. She's actually in California, correct? Yeah. And I also wanted to clarify... Or not clarify, but just let everyone know that Jacob's your only child, correct? Correct. And was that always the plan to have one child? No, we talked about having two. Obviously, after he was born, they did the genetic testing. And Jacob is a 4% of kids with Down's where one of us carries a dormant gene that the child would have Down syndrome 100%. My wife travels for... Work. She loves her job. She travels. I work six days a week. If we had another child, even if that child did not have Down syndrome, I would be probably running myself more ragged than I already am. Let me go... So we chose just to stick with one. And we give Jacob, obviously, all that attention. Hey, Scott. I apologize. But do you hear your wife on the line? You will not hear her because of the way we have it set up. We have a lot of people up here at the studio. But I am hearing your wife in my head. I'm sure you hear her all the time in your head. Now it's your turn. Exactly. Well, before... Madeline, welcome to the show. Thank you. And I appreciate you calling. And just hang on one second. I'm just going to finish up with your husband here. How snookum do I love him? Your wife says that she's in love with me. And she wants you to know that... Marriage is over. And she's going to be staying here. I'll tell you what her dad said to me on the day we got married. Yeah. Now you get the bill. That's nice. Well, I don't want it. So you can have her. But I just want to clarify one thing because I was a little confused. In a real quick way, in a clear way, explain just real briefly that math you were talking about, that you did some genetic testing, and it showed that if you were to have another child, that what percent... It would basically be close to 100%. That that child would have down. Okay. Okay, good. Okay. Not good, but now I understand. All right, Scott, we're going to run. I'm going to say goodnight to you. And I want to thank you also for staying up so late. I know you have to be up at 4.30 in the morning, and it's quite late there in Milwaukee. And now I'm going to spend some time alone with your wife. Does that make you jealous? Enjoy yourself. Don't get jealous. I'm going to bed. I promise anything that we talk about will be on the air. You can listen. It won't be... I promise. I'll keep it clean. Okay? All right. I'll trust you on that one. Hey, Scott, thank you so much for opening up. Oh, thank you for having me. I mean, it's been a great conversation, and it's really made me feel warm inside. And even though that sounds really corny, maybe, but really, thank you. No, it sounds good. All right, sleep well, and thanks again. All right? All right, Vic. Okay, I'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Scott. And there goes Scott Borkin, and here comes his wife. Madeline, do you call yourself Madeline Borkin? Yes, I do. Okay. Okay. And you are in California on business, is that right? Yes, I am. All right, and you've had a chance to listen to the show, the first half, where I was talking about Jacob with your husband, correct? Yes, I did. Did you have any thoughts on what we talked about? Well, I think he communicated in what actually happened and how it made us feel. I also think that... I think that we were able to overcome everything pretty quickly, and I think that was a result of the people that we were surrounded by. Who were those people? Doctors, nurses, friends that were neonatologists that were able to share. I mean, people literally, while I was in the hospital and Jacob was at NICU, at Children's Hospital, people were coming to my room to... They brought me computers, and literally, we just started... I just learned as much as I possibly could about Down syndrome, because I had no clue. In fact, while I was pregnant, I was trying to think, where could I volunteer my efforts? Like, what are the things that I can stay focused on? And then Jacob was born, and I said, oh, well, there's my answer. Madeline, when you were in the delivery room, you have the C-section, and the first words you hear from the doctor are, your son has Down syndrome. What goes through your head? Well, I screamed at the top of my lungs and said, oh, God, no. And my mother also was in the room, and she said, oh, don't listen to them, don't listen to them. And I just started crying. And then immediately after that, I just realized I was kind of in shock and couldn't talk. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I said that. But I did. Well, you know... Go on, sorry. I was feeling like, oh, my gosh, this child's life is going to be doomed. So here we are seven years later. And it changed back to opposite. What do you say now? Well, now I say I am blessed. He has changed our lives. He's absolutely amazing. We've met people that have showed us that there are so many possibilities and opportunities for individuals with disabilities. And as a result, the possibilities are endless. I mean, kids with disabilities are getting married, and they're driving. And they're going to cars. And they're going to universities. And they're living on their own in a home, in their own homes. And it's not all about, okay, well, after high school, well, he's going to have to live with us. We're going to have to probably put him in a group home. Those thoughts, that's what we thought about right at the beginning, because that's all you heard. That's what happened. So what are the lies? I don't mean lie in the sense of a nasty way, but maybe misconceptions is a correct word. Yeah, I would say myths. Myths, okay. Because the possibilities are truly endless if you present those opportunities to that child. I don't care what the disability is. Well, I mean, now if I, if I were listening at home, I'm listening in the studio, I mean, the skeptic would say, Madeline's in fantasy land. Okay. Because, but are you in fantasy land? No, I'm not because Yes. I was born in the 60s. And when I was born, I was born with a disability or rather deformity on my hands. Both hands? Both hands. And... Madeline, did you say both hands? Both hands, yeah. What is the deformity and what does it look like? Basically like little fingers and it's, you know, some, I, it just, they're just deformed hands. I don't have all five fingers. Okay. They're all different sizes and shapes and things like that. Sounds like my toes. Sounds like my toes. I don't know if my toes are official deformity, but they're not pretty. But go on, sorry. That's how I would describe my toes. So, but interestingly enough, the doctors and I was at, you know, University of Illinois in Chicago and the doctor said, oh God, you know what, you're gonna have to put her in an institution. She's just not gonna be able to survive in the real world. That's what they told my parents. And so my parents decided that that's not what they were going to do. And they chose to treat me just like my sisters. They chose to expect me to get good grades. They expected me to participate in after school activities. They expected me to go to college. So they're all the exact expectations that parents usually have for their children. Okay. And so they never denied me those opportunities. Okay. And so they never denied me those opportunities. Meaning, and when I say that, it's because they never treated me any differently and because they did not label me as being disabled, which that's what we often do to people. Right. And once you start to label people, then that's when some people tend to fall behind and they don't have the aspiration. Well, here's the deal. This is what I was thinking about as you were talking, and I think that it sounds like that would work for you, but there is, obviously, you're quite successful, you're traveling around the country, I don't know, the world, maybe, you've gotten, it sounds like you have a fantastic job, and you really are living life to the fullest, and thank God you- I am? Yeah, and that is an inspiration. However, what would you say to this? It's different to have deformed fingers versus down syndrome, Right. Down syndrome, because the mind, when you have deformed fingers, it's not affected at all, I mean, emotionally, it could be, and socially, there's probably bruises from interactions and that kind of thing with your friends or whatever, but down syndrome's much different, no? Down syndrome is considered a disability, and yes, it is a cognitive disability or intellectual and developmental disability. What it actually means, is that the individual is going to take longer, or perhaps they might need to learn in a different way, the same things that we all learn. So, it's not to say that they can't learn them, but- I did not, this is all new to me, I mean, news to me in the sense that I did not know that. Well, because historically, with individuals, with any type of cognitive disability, and that would include, I mean, I mean, I think that there's a lot of people who are, you know, there's a lot of people who are, you know, there's a lot of people who are, you know, who have children on the autism spectrum and so forth, there were, people had limitations for them, so the expectations were just not, the goal was, let's teach them life skills, and then we'll put them in a group home, or they'll live at home with their parents. So the bar was set very low. It really was, but today, I can share with you stories about self-advocates that are, you know, public speakers, they are in double majors at universities. Yes, it took them a little bit longer to get that degree, but, heck, they did it. And... What would be your aspirations for Jacob, and let's say his education? UCLA. I mean, that's my goal, I guess. Is that you in like a dream world, or is that legit, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I'm just curious, is that attainable? It is completely attainable. And I will tell you why, because of, you know, what I do for a living, I'm right now trying to help corporations identify opportunities for individuals with disabilities, where historically, they were not given the opportunity to have jobs, so you saw them every now and then at a grocery store bagging, or every now and then at, you know, Walmart as a greeter. And I'm not discounting any of those jobs by any means. But what I'm saying is that that's where the bar was set. Well, today you have companies like a Walgreen's building a whole initiative around hiring individuals with disabilities. And that... And you're talking about... But you're talking about, like, management-type positions and higher income-earning-type jobs. All to help them to provide them with the same... the skills to be able to grow within their organization at Walgreens. Now, there's been a lot of talk in our conversation with both you and your husband using the word cognitive and cognition. My understanding is basically we're talking about the ability to learn. Is that right? Right, right. And think. Right. So you're suggesting, and I don't mean to demeanor you by saying suggesting, I'll just say you're saying that one who has Down syndrome, it may take them twice as long to learn because of the cognition challenges, cognitive challenges, however they can get there. Yes. But is that for everyone with Down syndrome or certain cases? Some are more severe than others. It would have to be. It would have to be how they're being raised or what opportunities are being presented to those individuals. Take, for instance, the young lady that's in Glee. She speaks. She's eloquent. She does speaking engagements all over the world. She's a brilliant young lady. And because what I know for a fact is that her parents presented opportunities for her. So hence, she's a celebrity. When you think of Jacob, he's your son. He's someone you've loved for seven years. Could you imagine having someone who, a child without Down syndrome, what that would even be like? Or if it'd be something you'd prefer? Or do you even think like that at all? Where I'm sad or what I have difficulty with. And so, yes, our life is great. And things are amazing. I'm happy to be with Jacob. But the thing that I would struggle the most, and I know Scott does as well, is when he doesn't hit a milestone, like the average milestone. So when he was three and I had a friend whose child was three, and to see the difference in her child that's three that does not have a developmental disability and Jacob, it was pretty significant. And that hurts you to see that. Mm-hmm. Um, or when you go to school and you see him among his peers and he's definitely trying to keep up and his peers are all trying to get his attention. Um, but if they're trying to get his attention, they're giving him sensory overload. And so he might not be able to do the things that they're asking him to do. As they're as easily as they might. And so you see that. And so you worry about that. Um, you know, of course it hurts you when it took them long, longer to walk than other children. That hurts. You know, potty training. It, that's killing us. Um, seven years old and he's still having challenges with that. And, um, but that's, that's. Yeah. That's what happens when you have a developmental disability of some kind. So, and that's when you cry, that's when you're sad. That's because you don't want him to fall behind or to feel, cause that's when you, that's when they actually feel very different is in those instances. Because they know they're, they have the ability to say, see, this is not right or not necessarily right. But. Exactly. Or this is this, I should be doing it this way, but for some reason my body or my head is not signaling me to be aware of the fact that, oh, it's time to go over to the bathroom and go potty. Do you know what I mean? Right. So it's, it's those types of things that, that you struggle with or, um, walking up the steps or running up the steps. And he has to hold on when he walks up the steps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He has to hold on to the steps. When he's coming down the steps, he has to pay attention and hold on. Does that in some... Lots of us can skip steps and jump steps by seven years old. When he does reach those milestones, as long as it does take him, despite that, doesn't it make the milestone even more exciting for you after it's been completed? Oh, it does. Yes, it does. Oh my God, it does. And it's, it's fun to see because I've met so many other parents with children with disabilities and to even hear their stories of success and excitement, the things that they just never would have expected their child to even speak. And then all of a sudden their child is speaking. Madeline. And that's cool. Yeah. That sounds very, uh, I mean, it's, it's a world that I don't know. And, but when you bring me into it in this way, at least, you know, through this conversation, I could see where that would be. I can only imagine how, uh, thrilling it must be. Yeah. How many things that you thought could never be accomplished happening right before your eyes? I never, when I screamed and said, Oh God, I cannot believe this happened. Why did you do this? And literally screamed at the top of my lungs today. It's like, Oh, I didn't need to do that because what exists today in our world, in our society and the, the, the level of acceptance that is happening, especially what the beauty of it is, it's happening at the elementary school level. And being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able to being able in the past, I mean, it's actually changed a bit through talking with your husband. I felt sorry for you and others who have a child with Down syndrome. I've, you know, it's been my gut reaction. It's been even hard for me, honestly, sometimes to look at. I just, it's, it's created an effect in me. And, you know, I feel bad even saying it because it's, but it's honest. And, you know, while feelings are feelings, and I guess there's no sense of wrong or right feeling, am I foolish in having that thought and being not having been in your shoes? Not at all. Not at all. Only because I felt the exact same way. In fact, I was afraid of people that had developmental disabilities or another person with Down syndrome. I was afraid of those people. That's what that was to me. Yeah, that's, I can relate to that. And today that I'm in it, it's a totally different thing. It's a totally different thing because reality is so different than what my perception was. Is it just that you're a strong woman? Or is it just that this is reality? Or maybe that's a, it's a combination of both. That this is how it happens if it's in the real world and not imagined. And one has to experience, you know, be a part of this to deal with a child who's developmentally disabled. Developmentally disabled. Or is it disabled? Developmentally disabled. Am I saying that right? Yeah, you are saying it right. Are you just a strong woman? Or is it really once you're in it, it's a whole different experience? Or maybe both? I think once you're in it, if you have the level of support that we have, and keep in mind that we sought out the support. It wasn't like we just sat around and said, oh, what are we going to do now? It was more like, okay, I mean, within less than 10 hours, like I said, I had my room full of people helping me research this topic. Right, so you were on topics. And let's figure this out. You know, what's happening? And then as the years progressed, and he's only seven, I'm, organizations where I'm trying to figure out if I can make sure that people with disabilities are getting jobs. Well, here, we're almost, seven. Well, we're almost out of time, and there's a couple questions. I want to get in before I have to say goodbye. First question. First of all, I want to briefly mention that there's a group that's nationwide where children with Down syndrome are teaming up with kids who don't have Down syndrome and forming friendships, correct? With all intellectual disabilities. Okay, not just Down syndrome. And what's the name of that? What's the name of that organization? Best Buddies? It's called Best Buddies International. Okay. If anyone wants to check that out, it's been instrumental in Jacob's life, and it's just a great organization. And two quick questions. Did your husband, did I hear this right? And I may have misheard him. If you had done certain genetic testing ahead of time, you would have known 100% that you would have had a child with Down syndrome. Is that true? Or did I mishear him? No. Well, what he was saying was that, so, so, after we had, Jacob had genetic testing done to determine, you know, how did this happen? And one of the things is that they, they do the genetic testing on us too. And oftentimes you could be a carrier and your child may not necessarily, you know, have Down syndrome or whatever the disability might be because there's various forms when it comes to the chromosome. And so, what he was saying is, is that we, after they did the genetic testing for us, it was determined that if we were to get pregnant again, that we had a 100% chance of giving birth to another child with Down syndrome because one of us was a carrier. Now, but had you had that test like before your pregnancy, would you have known ahead of time? Yes, we would have. And does that ever, did that ever, like, you ever kick yourself or you go, no, this is exactly how it's supposed to be? Oh my gosh, no, not at all. Not at all. You know, I don't even think about that at all. Well, that's, that's, no. But what I did do then instead is like, I'm not going to get pregnant again to have another child. So that's, that's the way I'm looking at it versus the other way around. Oh shoot, I should have done that. Well, and also Madeline, how, how has this affected your marriage? I mean, when you found out after you had the baby, was there blame? Was there, were you thinking blaming him or him blaming you or we're not a good match? Was there a lot of that or any of that? No, not with, not with us. Um, as much as I, I, I trust me. There are a lot of families that, that has happened to unfortunately. Um, but we've been able to overcome that. I think you do have to, you're just showing yourself with that the right support. And again, going back to those expectations, setting the expectations and really being fully included into the community as well as in school where you do that, the more it helps with the marriage. Even it really does. It really does. I mean, I mean, people line up outside of our door because they want to watch Jacob. They want to come play with them and they want to hang out with them. Well listen, Your story is even more interesting and fascinating. I didn't know what we were going to get when we spoke. I knew it was going to be inspirational. And I really want to thank you. You know, Jacob's really been a gift here to us, you know, to me and to those listening as well in your story. Thank you. So that's very kind of you that you touched on the subject because it means a lot to all of those parents and all of those kids. And because the percentages are pretty high these days. Of what? Of kids being born with developmental disabilities. Well, Down syndrome, I read the CDC estimates that one out of 691. Babies in the United States has Down syndrome. That sounds like a lot to me. It is. It is. And then there are others similar to like developmental disabilities. Well, thank you. Before I go, is there anything you wanted to add? No, I wanted to say thank you. Great subject. Well, thank you. Because there wouldn't have been this show without you and your husband and Jacob. And I just want to, again, thank you for your openness and just sharing your feelings and making it safe for me to share some of the things that made me uncomfortable to share. You gave me really nice answers that make me feel more comfortable with some of my thoughts. You have to just keep an open mind like we do on everything else in some cases. Well, I look forward to seeing where Jacob is. And being out here in California, if he does choose UCLA, if that works out one day, hopefully, I'll be seeing all of you out here visiting. It would be great. Yes, you will. I would love that. Take care. All right. Have a great evening. Thank you so much. All right. And thank you. Wow. That was really fascinating for me. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. I just thought that everyone's story is so unique. And the day I met Scott and his wife and his little boy, Jacob. Jacob on Venice Beach. I didn't know that I'd be talking to them three years later and that that day would turn into, for me, a better understanding about human nature and Down syndrome. Because it's been a scary thing for me personally. I've always been, like Madeline said, kind of scared about the whole thing. And I really feel much differently from this conversation with this amazing couple. So thanks again for listening. And I look forward to us all getting back together soon again right here on Vic Cohen's It's a Fair Question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm Vic Cohen and it's a fair question. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair. It's a fair question.