Roxanne Dawson and Janice Cook discuss directing careers

Come on people, it's time to live it up! That's right! Live it up! Live it up! Come on people now! Live it up! Go together now! Live it up! Let's together! Come on people let's... Live it up! Boom! Really? Hello, this is Tanya McKiernan again. I am, this is Director's Cut and I'm taking over for Rosemary Rodriguez who is still directing in New York. Yay! Yay! So I, today I'm so excited to have my two guests, Roxanne Dawson and Janice Cook who are my two best friends. We're all directors. We never get to really work together or... Roxanne, I don't think I've ever followed you on a show. Janice, you and I on Royal Plains we did. But a little bit about Roxanne. Roxanne was on Star Trek as an actress. And then she also became a director on Star Trek and have done shows like Cold Case, The Closer, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Misery Street on PBS was... Mercy. Mercy. Mercy. Of course, I say it wrong. Yay! Yay! Sometimes there was misery in the first stage as well. Wow. I'm doing well today. Okay, so and then Janice has also done Cold Case, did Gossip Girl. She was started as a post-production producer and switched over. And what I think is really interesting is that the two of you started in the business in different areas and then you both became directors. And the last thing Janice did was switch at birth. So she just wrapped up two days ago? Yesterday. Yesterday. Yesterday. So welcome. Thank you. So this is the question I'm going to start with and then you guys get to pick who talks about it first. Which is... We're going to do paper scissors, rock paper scissors. I don't do that. All right. So the first question that I normally like to ask is what was your first job in the business? In the business of directing? No, in the business of being in the business. In the business of entertainment of television. Or of you started on Broadway. So in the business of entertainment, I would say. Well, that was my first job out of college was I went to an open call for a course line and was hired. And in San Francisco, I graduated from Berkeley. And then three days later, I was in New York and on Broadway rehearsing for a course line. Michael Bennett was pretty cool. That's for a first job. And so how did that... How did that feel to get that job? And like your very first day when you had your first audition for a course line on Broadway, how did that feel? Well, it was pretty crazy. It went over several days. And I'd been working as a receptionist at San Francisco Ballet. And I called in sick, said that I had food poisoning. And I didn't realize that they were actually filming for the news networks, the auditions. And I was making it down to the finals. And they showed it on air. And I immediately got fired because they realized I'd been lying. And then, of course, when I was one of two people to get the job, they immediately turned tail and talked about how their receptionist just got a job in a course line. So it was very funny. They used it as a kind of publicity at San Francisco Ballet. But it was just kind of like a dream. I couldn't believe I was actually getting paid to do what I love doing. It was like stepping into a dream. It couldn't have been more amazing. And how many years were you on course line? I was on and off for several years. I went back and did I went away and did other things and came back. And then I was actually out in Los Angeles doing other television work. And then they called me back to close the show in 89. I hadn't done it in two to three years. Maybe I went back into the last six, six months of the show and closed it. That's amazing. It was pretty cool. Yeah, that's that's awesome. So, Janice, what was your first your first job in the entertainment industry? I got a job at Columbia Pictures and it was a 10 weeks program. It's called the Executive Producers Program. And I got paid one hundred and fifty dollars a week to observe casting, editing, production. And you just went from week to week observing everything and learning about the industry, which turned into my first. Job, which was an apprentice editor, sound effects and music for Columbia Pictures. So it worked out pretty good. I had when I finished the program, I had three job offers. I had a P.A. for Ray Stark. I was going to be the liaison between film and video with Paramount Studios and or I could take the union job in editing. So I took the union job. Nice. So was editing where you wanted to go? No. I went to school. I went to school. I was I was art major and I wanted to design sets. And so, excuse me, I could not get into that union. I graduated from college at 20 and I had already worked in I had already worked in the industry. I sort of had three starts. I mean, I worked in a cable company in Wisconsin when I was in college. And so I did camera and I did graphics and I built sets. And so. I wanted to be a set designer. I mean, when when I was in college, I did theater and built sets for all of the plays, but I couldn't get into that union. But this other job at Columbia allowed me to get into editing. So my my passion was to be an art director. But I think it turned out OK. I think I think it did. But I think it's interesting. I have a great passion for production designers and we tend to get along very well. Well. And I think you have a you have you get along well with editors, too. Oh, absolutely. Because how long were you in post-production? Twenty five years. Right. And then and then the next question is like for both of you, since you're both directors, what when was it that you decided that you want to be directors like Roxanne? Because you were acting for a long time. And then what what was it that what was when did you get bit by the directing bug? Well, I'm. I think because I'm a little bit of a control freak, but you don't think that. Do you? Maybe I need to know you a little bit longer before. No, I mean, I had done some directing in theater and I really enjoyed sort of working with a proscenium, you know, and being able to work with setting and lighting and blocking to guide the eye on a proscenium. But I didn't know if that would translate to film. I'd always loved studying film, but it was something that I really never thought I would be doing. As an actress or director. And I just kind of fell into it. And I was given the opportunity to direct at Paramount on Star Trek, which sort of became my playground and school. And while I was working on the show, I was able to to follow and study other directors and sit in editing and production meetings and learn about it. And I was just sort of trying to get my toe in the water and see if it was something I liked. And I think the first time that I did. I was also acting in the show as well. And I realized that that was something I did not like. Some people can handle that, but I do not like acting in the show that I'm directing. It was just two parts of my mind that don't work well at the same time. But I did love it. And I thought I wanted to give it another chance. And I think the first time that I actually really enjoyed directing was when I went on to Enterprise and began to just direct and not have to worry about acting. And I just learned to. I loved it more and more and just realized that that's where I needed and wanted to be. Do you feel like you did that? You had a greater sense of creativity or expression when you directed as opposed to acting? Like, what's the difference feeling for you, you know, being being an actor and then being a director? Is there a difference? I mean, again, it's it's a little bit of the control factor. I think every time I acted, I put in as much work on my little piece of the pie. But I was fascinated by the whole pie. And and I would often even think about that. I mean, I would come in as an actor and have blocking in my mind. And sometimes I didn't work very well with the directors that I was working with because I had a very strong sense of what I wanted to do. And I really thought that's the way it should be done. And then but I've had my payback over the years. Believe me. Ten times. You had actors that decided that they want to do something a certain way, which is not the way that you wanted it. No, I yes. I mean, I I really do understand the actors had. And I actually I love actors that come in with strong opinions. And I've learned, I think, throughout the years to be less threatened by that and actually to embrace that, because I think that every day that I go to work, I and every new idea that that is introduced to me, whether it's from an actor or somebody else on the set, I try to see what I can steal, what I can take, what I can what new things I can discover. I always have a plan. And a. Back. A plan, as we've all talked about, you know, three times over. But I love to discover things that I hadn't thought of or that suddenly become. Better or a new way of looking at something, you know, right in the moment that can incorporate other people so that we all feel that we're part of creating what's happening. Right. And Janice, when when when did the directing bug bite you? I was supervising editing and I was I was a co-producer for many years and I. I ended up shooting inserts at first and then shooting a second unit. And then I started designing main titles, which I did 18 of with my business partner, Faye Cottrell. And so I get to shoot those things. And I just was I just sort of just started leaning towards that. And on a new show on the show called Dawson's Creek, I got my opportunity. I was also a producer on the show. And so that that's where it was. But it was pretty interesting because I was. The armchair quarterback, you know, supervising editing. So I would say I have no idea what this director was thinking and why didn't they get a close up and why didn't they do this and why didn't they do that? And so being in editing, I like I said, it was an armchair quarterback. And when I got into the chair myself, I was overwhelmed. I had no idea what I was doing. I basically would go to the hotel every night after directing and throw up. I was nervous. I was very nervous. But it all worked out. Yeah. But I think but I think you don't do that anymore. Well, it's OK if you throw up. For the next five for the next five episodes, I always started throwing up on the weekends. And when I didn't throw up, I said, is it going to be any good? There you go. There you go. But I but but it's true. Like, you know, I've been doing it now 20 years. And it's like right before the first day of shooting is always the hardest. It's like I. I'm so nervous and so like. And then once it's like you get on a bike, you're like, OK, I'm fine. But, you know, especially if you're on a new show. Right. Because you go on. Nobody knows you. It's like, you know, they're all looking at you like kind of out of the corner of their eye. Like, you know, just I feel like you're under a magnifying glass, you know, from the day one of prep, you know. And then it's like everybody starts, you know, in prep. Then they start talking to the set, whether they like you or not. So the set is like, you know, and then you get to the set. And if you've gotten a bad review during prep, then you got to. Like, try and undo it during shooting, you know. And it's like, OK, so you're like sitting here, this little bug. And it's either they're shining the light on you and trying to kill you or they, you know, like you and let you out of the little little box that you're in. But but what I think you're choosing to do this, right? Yeah. Well, you know, don't you don't you guys feel like it's like you you do an episode and it's like you do a great episode and you're so excited. And it's like. But it's kind of painful. It's painful at the same time. Sometimes you find episodes you're like, I'm never going to direct again. And then you end that job and you're like, where's my next job? How can I where am I going next? When do I get to play again? When do I get to play again? Yeah. But but I also why I'm so excited that you two are here together with me is just for the fact that, well, a we're friends. And but B, we've all sort of we've all sort of worked around each other in a way. Like Janice, you worked for my father, although I never met you at that point. But so did you, Roxanne. That was actually the first main title I did, which was which was Wiseguy. Wiseguy. Yeah. The main title for Wiseguy? Yes. Wow. Yeah. That's impressive. Pretty cool. Yeah. It's pretty cool. And then and then, Roxanne, you and I met when you did Greyhounds, a show called Greyhounds. And I was the AD and I, you know, made you get ready in base camp and the and the whole thing. But that's where we. Kind of. And Roxanne was prepping on the division and became a guest star on my show. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's like related. We're all related. Well, and the funny thing is, and I guess I should mention how we all met, which was we were at the was the ABC diversity program through the guild. And it was one of those interesting things where you had to go to the diversity to the day that it happened. And if you didn't go, then you couldn't come later because it was like, wasn't it like a month thing? Like you went in and we had we would go to ABC and have these big panels and sort of talk about how you get a job. And then we all got interviewed and all that stuff. And that's where the three of us met. And it was a small group of people. Yeah. Twenty five people. Twenty five directors. Yeah. And it was it was one of those things where where I knew Roxanne because I had also worked on Star Trek Voyager as a writing intern. I had applied to become a writing intern and I actually got the job. And I think it was like five hundred and twenty bucks for for three months. And I was on the and it was boy, that was an eye opening experience. And I remember you were you were on the set and I went up and I'm like, Roxanne, it's me. Don't you remember me, Tanya? I was in base camp. And you were like, who? That was my forehead. And right. Yeah, you had your forehead on and the whole thing. And then actually, I observed you on Star Trek Voyager as well when you were directing, which I thought was amazing. So. So cool. It's so cool. And and and just so everybody who's listening knows, it's like we try and have this is sort of our lunch that we have. We have a lunch like maybe once every three months or something just to sort of talk about directing. And our experiences. And and I always think it's it's it's so great to sit down with friends of yours where it's a safe place where you can talk about your job because we are we don't really have anybody. No, we have to do it alone. Yeah. I mean, it's really it's a lonely job. You're out there and I don't mean to sound dramatic or anything, but it really is. You don't have your friends who might be your friends, directors who might be your friends. You don't do it with them. You know, it's like other actors. You can. You can work with and you can commiserate with other actors and work on projects with actors. But we as directors don't get to work together. And so we kind of enter this little space and do our job and work with people that don't do what we do. And then we can come back and talk about it because it's nice to be able to compare notes and realize that, oh, my gosh, that really was hard. And I did, you know, get over that hump pretty well. Or how how can you guys advise me to handle this differently or or or even share our really great experiences? I mean, I think it's really important to be able to talk about that. I mean, you can't really do that except with maybe a spouse who doesn't understand what you do. You know, because that's why you want to be able to talk to, you know, your friends who are directors who are in a similar position and doing the same things that you are. Well, I think it's always I think I think the three of us like I remember I called you when I was doing an episode of NYPD Blue, which I always end up to bring up NYPD Blue when I'm talking on this. But I I do. But anyway, I had I had a. Really challenging acting thing with it, with a character, and it scared me to death. And so who do I call? I call Roxanne. I'm like, what do I do? I don't know if I know how to how to direct this actor. And, you know, and you gave me that. You told me about that book by Judith Weston. Oh, the what is it? Acting for directors. Yeah. Acting for. And I always tell everybody to read it because it was a really good book. And I learned so many. And it and it takes a lot of those myths. You know that that you all because it's like you you observe other directors or and you hear them say terminology that that isn't maybe stuff that they should be saying. Like, you know, you need to pace that up. You know, you say that to an actor. And that book said something which I thought was really interesting. Paul Newman said in that book that that when you feel like a scene needs to be paced up, it's because the two actors in the scene are not connected. And he said nine times out of 10 when they are connected. The scene. Is longer than when you felt that it was slow. And I was like, oh, that's really that's really interesting. You know, so it gave me a whole new vocabulary in terms of how how to talk to actors, which I thought was really valuable to me. And I was like holding on to my little book as I went. I'm sure made everybody feel very comfortable. Like page 15. Wait, hold on. I'll answer that. Right. So speaking of actors like having come from acting, was it hard for you to make that transition? Well, it's interesting. I took when I was doing Voyager, I took some classes with a wonderful teacher named Jim Pasternak. And he was really my only directing teacher. And he had us do short films and write and act and direct. And, you know, and wonderful. And one of the things he said to me that always stuck, he said, so many directors come from different disciplines. They come from doing other things. They don't just come up as directors. And that as they're making and they can bring that information to what they're doing, it can add to it. It can make it a richer experience. However, when they're first starting, the first thing they do really is neglect their primary discipline. He said, so you'll have an actor who's starting to direct and he probably won't give the actors as much attention as as he or she needs to. to because they're concentrating on the things they're not as comfortable with. The composition of the shot, the lighting, the camera movement, and not looking at the actors. If there's somebody who's coming from editing, you know, they'll neglect getting all the pieces that they need to get to fit things together. They'll neglect their primary place that they came from because they're concentrating on the things that are new to them. And so I always try to make sure that as I was thinking about camera movement and continuity and composition that I didn't forget the actors. But it's interesting. He said that to me and it was one of the first things that I did not think about. I went, well, actors can act, right? And then he's like, no, no, I have to actually direct them. You know, because I thought, you know, I mean, I come prepared. They should come. But then I really, I love talking to actors and I think, and I love learning the different ways that they work and the different things that can motivate them. I'm sure you've discovered that you don't. And even actors in the same scene might respond very differently to the same direction. And so it's understanding the best way to communicate and what they need to be able to get to get to where they need to be. And just knowing that how difficult it is to do what they do, that they go home and do a massive amount of homework to come to work prepared. And when they come prepared and with ideas, they need to be heard. And and it is a collaboration. But I think the best gift that you can give an actor. Is that is the gift of trust. If they feel they can trust you, they can let go of watching themselves and they can really rely on your eye and really look at you and go, was that OK? Instead of that feeling of of monitoring everything they're doing because they don't trust the director, you know. So that kind of trust, I think, is really, really important. And when you achieve that, I just feel like it's such a great working collaborative experience. And Janice, you coming from post production, how has that affected? How has that affected you? The way that you're a director or has it or or or did you was an easy transition and you didn't really think about that? Because I know I know that you like storyboard or not storyboard, but really do a shot list of your shot. Sure. I use the director plans and I draw everything out and I always have a plan so I can change a plan. It happens. It's the hardest thing for me to become a director. I got the I understood the shots. I need it. I understood not crossing the line. I understood transitions. And and it's like, you know, you don't stay in a crane shot forever. You do one take and move on. You you don't stay in a master too long because you're going to go into television where I work. And so it's going to go into close ups quicker. But what I found difficult was trying to figure out how to talk to actors, because when you're in editorial, you're not with a lot of people. You're with editors. And you're. With producers. But you don't talk. And so when I first my first time that I went to casting, I was sitting there and the actors kept coming in and I would go, that's nice. Thank you. And they'd come back. Another person would come. That's nice. Thank you. This person. That's nice. Thank you. And I always thought because I was first time I was in cast, I thought just the perfect one would come in and I'd see them. But my producer turned to me and says, you know, you can talk to them, right? You can. You can give them an adjustment. And I said, really? And he says, he says, oh, you've never been in casting, have you? And I said, no, post-production. So anyway, so I got really nervous talking to actors and I bought all the books and it confused the heck out of me. I bought every book. I mean, there's so many different theories. There's so many different ways to act. Everybody has a different school. And I didn't understand that. And so there's not one way. So you've got to figure out what's going to work for you. And I went back to what I do. And that was ADR. In post-production, I always did ADR and I always dealt with the actors in ADR. And explain what ADR is. ADR is when, for example, if you're in a Western and you're shooting in 2016 and a motorcycle goes by, they didn't have motorcycles. So you have to replace the dialogue because behind them, the ambience is there and it's modern. And we have to take all that out. So they have to, they have to replace their dialogue. The other thing about, I think that a lot of times you'll meet actors and it's not a majority, but most actors, I mean, a lot of actors are afraid of looping or doing ADR because they're, but what they sometimes don't understand is you can get a better performance in the ADR stage. But it's about replacing or it's about getting a better performance or it's about there was an airplane that went over or you just couldn't hear the dialogue because it was just bad. But what I found. What I found out is I had in ADR, I had these short phrases. And so that's how I work with actors. Now as I give short phrases, I get very short phrases. I don't go on and on and on and on and on. And it seems to work for me, but I didn't know that at first. And I just went back to the way I worked with actors and, and, you know, and said, maybe if you stand up and your diaphragm will open up and you'll be able to, you know, without, you know, are you, you don't have to, you're not angry, you're not yelling and I'll walk away. Or, you know, I'm not angry. I'm not angry. I'm not angry. I'm not angry. I'm not angry. I'm not yelling and I'll walk away. Or remember the last scene, this motivates that and the, you know, this, or for example, this scene is three acts. It's this one scene has three acts in it. You're first of all, trying to manipulate somebody. Then you're trying to just scare the living heck out of them. And then you try to be empathetic with them. So there's three acts in the scene and we're playing it straight across, but it's not, these are the three different beats. So short is better for me and it seems to work very nicely. Were you doing short when you directed Roxanne? I was still scared when I was directing. I was still scared. I don't think I even- Not of me, of Bonnie Bedelia, right? I was very scared of- Yeah, but you- But Bonnie Bedelia loved me for some reason- For some reason. For some reason. But I did make a mistake with Bonnie. Deborah Joy Levine said to me, she says, I just want to let you know in a tone meeting, we have a tone meeting before we start directing with the producers or the creator. But she gave me this note. She says, I loved Bonnie Bedelia's reading during the table read. I loved her delivery. That table read was just fantastic. I wanted to do it just like that. And so I stupidly on the set said, we loved your table read. And so we'd like to see that. And Bonnie- And Bonnie Bedelia looked at me and said, don't you ever bring up a table read to an actor. And I'm like, oh my God, I just totally ruined everything. But she said, I should tell you. No. Yeah, so- And the table read is for people that don't know is when you sit down with the script and before you shoot it, all the actors read their dialogue so you can hear all this stuff. But yeah, that was probably a no-no. That was really a no-no. Yeah. Yeah. So, in terms of the other thing that I wanna touch on is the fact that we are all mothers and we are also directors. And one of the things that I always get asked all the time from people are, how do you do it? And my answer is always, I can't do it without my husband because he, and especially now, is getting better. But when all of the production was out of town, it's like, I can't do it without my husband. I can't do it without my husband. out of town, it's like you find yourself gone for three to six weeks, you know, and, and it makes it really hard when you're trying to raise a family. So just, I kind of like to know how it was for both of you, because I know Janice, you, you have three kids and a lot of the time you were doing it by yourself. I had great relatives. I mean, my head, I had teenage or 20 something nephews and nieces that were, you know, I had, I would hire my nephew and he would be on set with me so that if case one of the three children got sick and had to leave school, I could just turn to him and say, go pick up Sydney, go pick up Jordan, go get Alex. It was not easy. My husband, I mean, in the beginning, my husband was there. But after about three years after I started directing, we broke up. So the burden was on me and trying to get babysitters and get kids to and from and on the weekends. And if I went out of town, it was just, it was, it was a master plan. And I just happened to have babysitters. I happened to have higher people who stayed. I had a nanny for a while. I just, it's just organizing and, and having enough people around and enough bodies to, to get all those kids. And, and I got lucky. It all worked out. I don't know how it all worked out, but somehow, some way it worked out. You got lucky. I think that you planned it really well, which is why you're a really good director. Because I do, I think being a mother and having to hold down a job makes you a really good director. It's being able to multitask and be able to handle a lot of different things, a lot of different emotions and things that your children or your spouse or significant other are going through and somehow balance a life and, and this job, which is extremely difficult when you're in it. You know, the amount of hours a day that you're working and that you don't have to do all that. And I think Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some we manage time all the time. That's what we do. We manage time. So I would have the nighttime crew, I'd have the daytime crew, I'd have the weekend crew and everybody knew. And fortunately for me, nothing fell apart. So I was very fortunate that somebody didn't fall out, you know, someone quit or what have you, that didn't happen. So. Well, and it's one of those things too, where it's not like another job where you can call and your kid's sick and you can't go to work on a day of shooting. There's no, there's no that like. We're the only job on the set that can't, has to show up at work. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can't, I don't know how many times I've worked, you know, I worked with walking pneumonia. I worked, you know, and I know a lot of directors, you know, men and women that, that I know a director who had appendicitis and went to the hospital at night and got his appendix out and came to work the next day. It's like, you know, it's like, it's, it's one of those things where. People don't believe me. It's like, I have friends and I'll sit there and I'm like, yeah, we're friends now. And you see me like, and we're, you know, we have play dates and we do all this. And eventually I will just disappear. And it's not because I don't like you or whatever. It's because I went on a job and I, I ceased to have a life once I am on a job. Yeah. You know? And I think that's, I think that's hard. Like Roxanne, how do you, you deal with it? Cause you have to leave a lot. No, it's, it's really, I mean, it's hard even when it's in town because we know, I mean, uh, you leave on a, you know, you see them on a Sunday night, then you leave before they wake up in the morning on Monday. Maybe you don't see them until Friday again with the amount of hours you work, even when you're in town, you know, it's difficult, but being out of town is extraordinarily difficult. I spent a lot of time out of town this last year and this year I'm making a concerted effort, uh, to stay in town. And it means that you have to be willing to say no to things. And, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not that kind of person that's willing to do that. I'm not that kind of person that's willing to do that. And thank God, I think we've all been doing this long enough where, where we feel comfortable with the people that we work with that we can occasionally say no, because we need to, uh, because we need to pay attention to what's really important in life, which is our family. And, um, and at times we can't, we can't do everything. I think that thing that you can do it all well, yes, eventually, but not maybe at the same time, you know? And sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes it's saying no to something that's not that important. So that's the thing that we need to do. Oh, that's the thing that we need to do. something and staying home where you need to be and taking a job maybe that is not as interesting, but that will get you through. And other times when you've negotiated that, you can leave for something that is really exciting to you. And I think we're all fortunate to have these things in our life now and these choices. And I know that when I was first starting, you thought if you ever said no to anything, you know, you'd be blacklisted or something. You'd never work again. I mean, how dare you say no to something. And I think we've learned that we can do that and that there is also power in choosing the projects that we work on. I think that Tanya's done this and I just did it yesterday. My last show, well, actually my last two shows, I have twin 22-year-olds and they became my assistants. And so Sydney went with me to New York on Royal Pains and we stayed for 24 days. And then Jordan just spent, 24 days with me on Switched at Birth. And it was great. Sydney was fantastic in prep. The director, she's been on set most of her life. The shooting wasn't as interesting for her. So she sort of wandered away after day two because she had a lot of friends in New York. But then, but Jordan stuck it out and she was there 24-7 and she now is starting to consider directing. Wow. And it's pretty amazing. And she did so well on the set and everybody loved her. And it was just, I'm like, here's my 22-year-old here on the set with me. And it's like, this is amazing. Well, I also found like I, my, my daughter, Katie, went to Devious Maids with me for six weeks. And part of it was for me. Like, I don't, I don't like being gone. It's, it's hard, hard for me, which I'm sure it's hard for you too. But taking my daughter with me and having her be my assistant at 15 and a half was amazing. It like made the whole, the whole thing different. It was like on the weekends, I wasn't sitting in my room going, I really want to go see things with my family. I don't want to go see this because I'm doing it by myself. You know, I'm, I'm, I get to go, you know, we went to the Coke Museum, we did like all this stuff. But I also felt like there was an appreciation from her side. Like she understood what it was that I did, you know, and, and because, and even my son, he went and was with me on Shadow Hunters. And he just told me, he was like, he's like, Mom, you know, I, he goes, I tell my friends what you do, but they don't really know what it is that you do. They think, you know, they think, and it's a joke I say on set all the time. It's like, I only say action and cut. I really don't do anything else. It's just like, that's, that's my job. And in movies, they portray us sitting in a chair. Yeah, sitting in a chair all the time. So, but, but he said, and I said, is that what you thought? And he said, I did until, until I came and worked with you. And he goes, you get asked a million questions in a day and you have so many things to figure out and everybody's looking at you. And he was, it's amazing, especially when your kids get upset with you for leaving and guilt trip you all the time and tell you, you know, well, you, you weren't there for that because you were working, you know, and, and you're like, well, yeah, I was working, but I'm paying for your, you know, for you to have that, whatever you have. But, but it was amazing for them. It was amazing for them to then understand what it was that I was doing, you know, and, and, and now it's like, now when something happens or I have a hard day, I can actually talk to them about it and they understand what I'm saying. Instead of, as you said, coming home and you're trying to explain it to your spouse and they're looking at you like, why are you complaining? Like, I don't understand, you know, but it's like, but like even my son, I remember had one day where I, where they were going to pull the plug on, me and he would look at his watch and go, you got 15 minutes. I'm like, look at it. I'm like, I'm going to kill you. And he walks up and he's like, now you have 10. Okay. But what happened was he kept me laughing, but I was like looking at him and he's like, mom, five minutes. I don't need your help. And the, and the producers were like, yeah, I think we're going to hire Brendan. He's like really good. At, at, at getting you to, you know, get your stuff done. Oh, that's hilarious. It was so funny. Do you think you would ever take your girls, Roxanne, with you? Oh my gosh. I would love to. They show no interest whatsoever. You know, I, I, I remember I was once on, on, uh, I was doing major crimes and I brought my youngest onto set so that she could see what mommy does. And first she was more interested in the craft service table. And then after that, all of a sudden she kind of disappeared. I found her in another room, you know, on the set doing her homework. And I said, don't you want to come and watch mommy direct? She said, well, I sort of had to get my homework done. And I was like, I suppose I should let her do that. But at the same time, I'm thinking, but you're here. I would think you'd be interested, you know? So I, I don't know. Um, they, for some reason they show absolutely no interest in what I do. But, um, uh, my, uh, 18 year old is going off to college next year and she'll be, you know, doing her thing. But she gave me the coolest gift this, this year. Um, she has shown no interest in, in the theater arts whatsoever, but she, uh, she won't say it was for me, but I think it was. She decided at her last semester as a senior that she'd never ever have a chance to build sets and do, um, run as the running crew on a play. So her school's doing the Adams family and she's on the running crew, help build the sets and is doing performances this week and next week. And of course I got a front row seat to watch. I watched her move the sets back there and the things that she had built. And she's been, uh, she just wanted to know what it was like to be around theater people and to, to do a show once. She knew she'd probably never have an opportunity to do it again and wanted to know sort of what it was that I loved about theater, you know? And so that was a real gift. Well, you need to take Janice because she's into set design. I know. Look at that. Look at that. She knows how, my daughter knows how to use a power tool now. She's very excited. And that's useful. You know, she'll be able to use that. I know it's fun. Like my whole background was, was theater and it's like building sets and doing all that stuff. It's just, it's a whole different way of looking at things. Um, but, but I think it's, I think it's fun to see your kids, like, just understand what it is that you do. Yeah. It's pretty cool. You know? Um, and then, and then Roxanne, your husband, Eric is also a casting director. Yes. And so how does that work? Having him be a casting director? And you being a director? Well, I mean, the good thing about that is that we really do understand each other, you know? And, and the good thing about that is we really can share stories at the end of the day. You know, we're not in the same, uh, the same business, the same discipline, but we have a lot of stories to share. And there've been times when I, like I did the mentalist that he was casting, that I was in the same room with him, you know? And he was very nervous about bringing me a really good cast. And, and he, um, and that's fun when I get a chance to actually work with him, which has happened a couple of times. A couple of times. So, um, but he has a, you know, he goes through his pilot season and when he's doing pilots, um, he just finished one yesterday. And, um, and one that he just did is about to, um, air, I think tonight underground. I can mention that. It's very exciting, really an amazing show, um, on WGN. Anyway, but, uh, he's, uh, you know, we, we are able to talk about things, which is, which is great. But again, you know, my kids don't show any interest in, I mean, he's, they've got two parents that are in the business and they show no interest at all in anything. Because they're kids. Yeah, maybe. It's like, it's like the parents are like, please come and do it. And they're like, no, no, I'm going to go do my own thing. And yeah, you, you guys have fun doing that. Yeah. Cause I'm going to go do this over there. So, um, Janice, what has been your all time favorite show that you've worked on as a director? Hmm. I don't have a favorite. Really? I don't, I don't because I get to do so many things. And every time I get to dance, um, as a director, it's just amazing. So, I mean, it's every day I have, I have an opportunity that magic happens. So either it's a performance or it's in a composition of a, of a, of a, of a frame. Um, or all of a sudden. The. Um, lightning hits at the right time or the train or subway goes through the background of the shot, you know, at the perfect time. And it's just, and then people form a heart when they kiss chin to chin in the blackout, you know, episode. And so it's like every day there's something amazing that happens on every show that I do. And the blackout episode was Gossip Girl. That was Gossip Girl. And it was rated top 10 episode of 2008, um, right next to Breaking Bad, which was pretty cool. Um, but. Yeah, they, they, you were, you were written up, I remember. Right. And it was awesome. It was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. Um, but no, I just, I, you know, I do, I can be queen of the teens. I can do CSI Cyber, Cold Case. I can do Containment, which is about Ebola. You know, I can do Royal Pains, which, you know, is about medicine. I mean, it's just, there's some piece of magic every day. So I, I don't have a favorite. Well, what's your favorite part about directing? Is there a favorite, is there, is there, other than set design, is there, is there a favorite part that you really like doing? I draw my plans. And so if we stick to my plan and if I get through an entire show and all my plans work, that's the favorite part. Because that means that the DP and I get along. We, you know, we, we, we, we are collaborating and, and what I've done worked. And so that's, you know, I mean, I sometimes get disappointed if I don't get my way. I'm like, I have to, you know, but what I try to do is invest, you know, get everybody invested in what I'm doing. So I walk everything very, everybody through my work before I even do it. So I walk the production designer through, I watch my AD through. And so I'm always practicing it before it even comes to set. But I, there's just magic. I mean, if, if, you know, all of a sudden the DP's like really into it, it's like, this is great. And we're working together very fine. And I make my day. And so it's. It's just that I really sit, you know, and, and, and plan these things out. And, and, and I don't think that people sometimes on, on set really think that we do that, that we actually have a plan. And, you know, I'm like, but there was a plan. We had a plan and we got through the day. So that's my favorite part is if, if we, if, if the work that I've done, all the homework that I've done, that it pays off. And it's an interesting shot. It's an interesting transition. And that it tells a great story. And it tells the audience exactly where they need to be. And so that's pretty cool. All right. So Roxanne, do you have a favorite show that you've worked on? And if not, then what's your favorite process? Probably favorite show would be Mercy Street because I was able to do the pilot and be involved in the, you know, every concept right from the beginning. And we cross-bordered the first three episodes. So that pilot was included in that. So it was, it was not, it was not an easy thing. It was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. But, but I had to say right from the beginning, from casting to set design, to color choices, to creating the world that they lived in. And it was a wonderful period piece, Civil War, beautifully written, beautifully written. And I just felt that, you know, to be able to, to do that and bring it to life and, and take a subject matter that is kind of dusty and sitting on your shelf and bring it to life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually living in a part of this, this world was so exciting for me. Just the, when we talked about color palettes and designs and the way people would see things in those days, you know, it was a hotel turned into a hospital, but we don't see it like the hospitals we do today, which is fluorescently lit and everything very even. You know, in those days they didn't have electricity. So we're dealing with all light that's coming from the outside or, or seeing a light source, which would be a candle or a lantern and, and just creating that. that whole world was so very exciting that I would love the chance to do that again. Again, it's about control. It's about having an image or a vision and wanting to really take it from the inception, you know, right up onto the screen. And then when you see it and it is what you, and it is what you planned, you know, how exciting that is to go, wow, those were my original concepts and there they are. So probably that show would be the best. And do you guys feel like when you have a, because, you know, you have your plans and you want your plans to go the way you have it, but sometimes your plans are exceeded by what happens, you know, on the set. Are you, is that gratifying to you to see something that grows from a plan? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like sometimes you have three shots, three shots. Yeah. Three setups for a scene. Excuse me. And it becomes water. And it works. And it's like, wow. And that has nothing to do with time constraints, I'm sure. You know? So, yeah, you sometimes have to just change. You have to change what your thoughts were. I mean, you have to best serve the day. And you have to be able to go with it to still enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think, I think, especially Roxanne, with the show you just brought up, it was more like a movie in a way. I mean, it was episodic, but you still were in every part of the creative process. Yeah. Whereas I think when you come on to a show, you really don't, you don't get to have that luxury. No, it's so, it's so different. You come on and you go, what has been established? And how can I fulfill what you've established and still put my thumbprint on it? You know, still put my signature on it. And elevate it. And, but it is, yeah, so it's a very different kind of thing. In fact, I would, I was kind of pinching myself through the whole process because it's very exciting when you're being asked all these questions about things that haven't existed before, you know, and that you are actually there helping to create them and studying about them. And so that, I was, that was a thoroughly enjoyable. And the people that I worked with there were phenomenal too. So that always helps. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and I guess what if, if we have some budding directors listening to us, like what are, what would be your guys' advice to, to starting a career in episodic? Like, cause I don't, it's, it's funny. I don't want to say just directing because, because doing a movie and doing episodic are, should be named different things. I know, don't you think so? Well, yeah. Oh my gosh. Because it's not, the rules are, are completely different. I mean, I remember I went to something at the Director's Guild where they were talking about writers and directors relationship, which was a great thing that they did, but it was about features. And I remember, I think Janice, were we sitting together maybe? And I, or I was sitting with someone else and I was like, they need to do another one just about episodic television because it's, it's just a different animal. It's not, it's not. And a lot of times you've, you've got these people that are, that are doing, they're doing indies and stuff because they're trying to find a way into the episodic model. And then they get in there and it's like they get smacked in the face. Yep. You know, so what, what would be your guys' advice to somebody who's trying to make it into episodic television? Well, to get onto the sets, to find jobs that, other jobs that you can do on, on the set, you know, whether it's a different discipline, whether you're coming from script supervising or an editor that can spend time on the set or a, you know, there's, you know, there's one of a makeup artist who's worked in major crimes who's now directing there. She's so fantastic. Yeah. And you just go, you know, there, it's being on a set and understanding what's necessary and being that fly on the wall. I mean, even when I was acting, I really did not understand what a director did. I had no idea. And that, and I remind myself every day that the actors that I'm working with have no idea what we do, what we really do. And, but while I was acting, I was on the set whenever I wasn't working as an actor, watching all the directors, sitting in editing and just learning, learning, learning. I mean, that's really, it's really the only way because you can do all of your own little features and, and produce, you know, shorts, but it's not going to help you succeed on your first episodic directing job. That is a whole different animal. I totally agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. And Janice, what would your, what would you tell somebody who's trying to break into episodic? I think that they have a, I think people today have a much greater opportunity to, to work. I mean, to, to start to prepare. I mean, they have iPhones and iPads and they can shoot anything they want and they can edit and they can do that at their home. And they need to, if you, it's like, if you want to write, you need to write. If you want to direct, then you need to direct. You have to, you know, fall down to get, you know, to stand up. Right. You have to find, you have to figure it out. And if you are shooting your own movies and you're editing your own movies, or at least you're having someone edit them for you, then you can see where the mistakes are or where they're not. Or you've started to do something different. There's, you can, you get to look at all these movies now and they have all these directors and actors and producers and writers talking, commenting throughout the movie. They've got such a great, you know, great, great learning tools from those movies when you just go in and just listen to the conversations from the director's point of view. And that, you know, it's something that we didn't have anything. No one told us anything. Basically, when you, when I started directing, no one told me anything, except that you need to get what you need to get. And what's behind you is behind you. Right. You know, but no one told me. Everybody has a different style. I draw and I make shot lists. I don't know. You know, you're on the set and your process is completely different than mine. Yeah, my process drives you absolutely insane. I would have a meltdown. I would have a total meltdown. Even the process with this whole thing, Janice is like, so do you have like, do you have like examples that I can, can I look at? And I'm like, no, we're just going to go, go with it. I'm just, I'll ask you guys questions and it will just happen the way it happens. And she's like, what? No, and she has, you asked me more than once. That was, that's what was funny. I know. So, but, but, but I think everybody's process is different and mine is, tends to be organic is what I hear from people. It's like, I'm more organically, I'm prepared. I know what I'm doing, but it's like, I watch for what the openings are, not, not highly shot listed. I just don't, I just don't work that way. I actually admire you that you do that because it's like, I sit there and it's like, I just can't, because what will happen is I'll sit there looking at my thing and, and not look at what's happening on the set. You know, so I like to see, I like to see. Which I also saw you when I was, when I was prepping and you were directing on Royal Pains that you like to see, and I do too. I usually stand where I think the master's going to be and, and, and, and it always, the actors always gravitate towards me, you know, but you, we like to see, I like to see that what, I never tell actors what to do on the rehearsal until I need to start to show it up because I'd like to see that. And I think that's what I like to see. And I think that's what I like to see. And their instincts are great. And then, you know, if you go on a show, it's been like season seven and you're just starting it. Like on Cold Case, I went on season seven. I'm like, I'm not going to tell Catherine Morris where to stand. And there's, there's booby traps everywhere. And so everybody just tell me where they are. And I believe in you guys, you have instincts. And so let's go do it. But I love to see actors all of a sudden come up with something that inspires me, you know? So I don't, I'm not a dictator, you know? I just like to, I like to stand there and watch them. And then, I become a sheepdog and I go, well, maybe you might want to stay over here. You know, you don't want to go on this side and that side, you know? And so it works. Yeah, it does. But I have to have it written down. I know you do. And I don't. And well, we are done. It's been our hour. Wow. This was cool. I know. It's like every time I do this, I'm like, I want to, I want to do it. Like he said, four minutes. I'm like, what? And you were talking and I'm like, what? Wait. So anyway, I really, I love you guys. And thank you so much for allowing me to drag you into something else that, you know. Thanks for having us. This is awesome. And I think it's great to, I think it's great for people to hear your guys' perspective. So thank you very much for coming. Cool beans. Thank you. And good luck to the show. Yeah. Yeah. This is very cool. It's really good. And I'm happy Rosemary started doing it. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Thank you, Rosemary. Thank you, Rosemary. Come on, people. It's time to live it up. That's right. Live it up. Live it up. Come on, people. Now. Live it up. Go together now. Live it up. This together. Come on, people. Let's live it up. Boom.