Couples therapy with Stevon Lewis

hello this is julianne good and this is psych one-on-one we're here to make psychology understandable interesting intriguing and hopefully we're here to give you some tips for making your life better and the lives of your family and friends so welcome we are here this evening with steve-on lewis marriage and family therapist and he's been on before tonight we are going to be talking about couples therapy one of those things that i think everybody is going through issues right now with their significant other at least i know of several people that are going through issues so this should be interesting welcome steve-on how you doing i'm doing all right thank you for having me on again well thank you for being here it's wonderful to have you back yeah so can you tell the audience a little bit about your background sure sure i'm a licensed marriage and family therapist i've been doing therapy now for about seven years at least seven years in july i work i've worked constantly at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the at the kind of primarily with doing family therapy with the families of children or adolescents involved with the juvenile justice system. And more recently, I've opened up a private practice where I see individuals, couples, and teens, and just kind of doing that sort of therapy. So most of my work, again, is with families, kind of more the impoverished kids involved with the juvenile justice system on probation, and now just kind of branching out and creating my private practice. So I'm still doing a little bit of both. Well, congratulations on your private practice. I know how difficult that is to establish. And what city is that in? It's in Torrance. Okay. I'm in the South Bay. I'm off of Harthorn and Lomita are the cross streets. Yeah, in L.A. County. Yes. Okay. So we had spoken previously about that you've been doing a lot of couples work lately. Yes, I have. Yeah. And that is some really difficult counseling work to do. So can you tell us a little bit about the work that you do with couples? Sure. Couples therapy is different, I think, from other types of therapy. It provides a totally different dynamic. With individual, you're able to kind of work in the room with a person who's bringing stuff from outside, but is primarily kind of focused on bettering self or working on issues within self as they relate to others. You know, family therapy is a different dynamic. It's a lot of work because it's blood related. Relatives usually, they're trying to work out their issues. Couples is different, I think, because it's two people who've decided to come together. They've made a decision to want to be in a relationship together. So there isn't that kind of, you know, bloodline that really ties them together. And they bring a lot of stuff with them. When you start to think about individuals coming together, as a person, you're shaped by all the things that... Yeah. Are your background. You're a family of origin. So those messages about, you know, how men and women should behave in relationships or how they are to be, you know, what you saw in terms of good qualities in the opposite sex, you bring all that stuff into your own relationship. And I'm sure, you know, most people have an idea of what their ideal relationship will look like or how they want to be. But it's hard to kind of make that stuff work. And when communication breaks down or feelings or emotions... Emotions aren't kind of expressed appropriately or understood appropriately, then you have a recipe for some unhappiness and turmoil. Right. And I think you're correct in stating before that everybody brings in expectations to relationships. There's always that, you know, you have that perfect mate in your head before you even get into a relationship. Because, you know, we're geared towards doing that in our society. That like, okay, well, this is my perfect, you know, my visualization of the perfect mate, the perfect boyfriend, perfect girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. And you get into the relationship initially with those, you know, those dreams. And sometimes, you know, you can find that special person that's going to spark that dream. And then you start getting a little deeper into the relationship. And then it's like, work. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's this idea that we come into a relationship with these rose-colored glasses about what we expect the other person to be. And on this list that we develop for ourselves, there aren't usually flaws on that list. It's all these great things that this person's going to be. And they're, for all intents and purposes, perfect. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And what we do is we have this list, and then we see how the person we're with matches up with that. And oftentimes, it's impossible for anyone to match up to those lists, because they're all kind of idealized. Right. And that creates kind of this confusion within us. I mean, I think people get to a place where they aren't quite sure of, like, well, this person doesn't have this stuff, and are these deal breakers? And I always ask couples, what's your real deal breakers? Because this list has a lot of stuff on it about what you would like. Right. But how much of this stuff is things that you have to have and can't do without? And how much of these things are somewhat negotiable? And trying to get them to have that conversation is oftentimes tough. But like you said, there is this list we come in with about how our perfect mate is going to be and how we expect our relationships to be. And when things don't add up to that, it's, well, you know, what do we do? And in today's society, a lot of times that means divorce. Yeah, it does. And do you actually have your couples make lists? Absolutely, absolutely. So in my office, I have this sort of like a large poster board kind of post-it style paper. And so I'm able to kind of rip those off like large post-it notes. And I'll put them on the door and then I'll say, you know, kind of here's what's your list, you guys. And I'll have each person give their term of what they expect from a good, you know, a good couple of people. And I'll have them give their term of what they expect from a good husband or from a good boyfriend and then have them also talk about, have the other person talk about what they expect from a good wife or a good girlfriend and start to have them verbalize so that they can see this stuff. And seeing it written down and having something tangible lets people know like, okay, there's all these themes that are playing into or that really come into effect when I'm thinking about how I'm evaluating or how I'm viewing my partner. It's this list that I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, judging them against. And I get them to start having conversations about, well, how much of this stuff has to be here? And then how much of that stuff are you kind of okay with not having? And then another thing that I do when I'm having them write their list is also have each person kind of evaluate what they expect of themselves in a relationship as well. And see if that lines up with what their partner expects. And oftentimes there's some kind of, you know, discrepancy between the two. And that's where I kind of utilize that opportunity. To talk about, okay, well, it looks like you guys aren't matching up. Then what's going on here? And how do we kind of work through this? That sounds like a really good idea for any couples. I mean, that's something they could actually sit down and do at home if they got disciplined enough and said, hey, let's, you know, try this as an experiment. Let's put our expectations in black and white on the, you know, write them out. Let's discuss this, you know. If, you know, if the couple are willing to do that, I think that sounds like a really healthy thing to do. Yeah, yeah. I give a lot of homework. But really getting them, my homework is really designed to get them to think about what it is that they really want. And what do they feel that they're not getting? Oftentimes, you know, there are lots of complaints when you're doing couples therapy. And usually those complaints are about the other person. Not so much about my own self in a relationship. It's about what my partner's not doing or needs to do more of. And get them to talk about those things. But add some feelings to that. Add some emotions to that. What is it that you're missing? What need is it being met as a result of this? It's not taking out the trash is an issue, but that's not the issue. What is it about that that sends this message to you that maybe this can't work? Is it that not taking out the trash sends a message that maybe you're going to have to carry more than your own weight in this relationship? Maybe you can't count on this person to get simple things done. So maybe there's this fear now that I can't get, you know, I can't count on this person to do larger things when it comes to something more serious. And where does that stuff come from? So having them really explore these things that are going on kind of underlying what their complaints are is another big thing to try to have couples do in front of each other. Because you often find that they haven't been able to talk like that. They haven't had conversations. You know? Where they've been able to express themselves openly. Because there's this fear of if I make myself vulnerable, it'll be used against me. So oftentimes I try to provide an environment where they're able to have those types of conversations. And allow each person to kind of see each other in another manner or another fashion in a different light. So that maybe what's driving this person is this fear that she isn't going to be able to count on me. And how do I communicate to her that she can count on me? So kind of changing the conversation from you don't get the, you don't take the trash out when asked and you don't do any chores and you don't help run a house to you can count on me through little things and big things and here's how you know that. Right. I mean that, and that's a perfect example of, you know, of little problems building up into bigger problems within a relationship. And then not discussing them or within the relationship they're fighting about it. Like, you know, why don't you take out the trash? I'm tired of asking. I'm tired of asking you. Yep. And, you know, it just snowballs. And of course, you know, what, whoever is giving that message out, the receiver's just shutting down probably after a while and just going, oh, here we go. So it gets into that, that cycle. It's predictable. Yeah, it really is. And, and people, you know, when they get sucked into it, it's tough for them to kind of get themselves out of it. It's a thing of where we can't talk now. It'll be like, oh, I'm not talking to you. It's not a thing at all because we've never, we've been arguing for so long that we don't, we haven't found a way to have a regular conversation. Now we've forgotten how to have a conversation. So we're walking on eggshells around each other. Every little thing we say to one another creates an argument. It turns into a disastrous conversation. So then there's this tendency to, well, I don't want to talk. Let's avoid talking. And that doesn't help get to where, because these things need to be discussed. And so they're doing the exact opposite of what's really going to help them. Yeah. Like shutting down is probably one of the worst things you can do within a relationship. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's, I think one of Gottman's kind of four horsemen. Can you explain that to the audience, please? Because I was thinking that exactly too. John Gottman. Right. He's one, he's one of the top therapists within couples therapy. He is the guru of couples therapy. I mean, he's kind of cornered the market. He's gotten to a place where now I think the last I read, was that he's able to kind of sit with a couple and in, you know, I'd say three minutes or so, he's able to kind of identify whether the couple's going to stay together or not. And it's done basically, he kind of in his head will calculate how many positive and negative statements are made. And the verbal, the nonverbal kind of behaviors or things that are being communicated, doing that interaction. And he's able to kind of say, well, you know, this couple's probably not going to last. And this couple probably will be able to work through their issues. But back to the four horsemen, John Gottman, he's a, yeah, he's kind of renowned. He's a kind of cornered the market in couples therapy. And he has these four horsemen, what he calls them, that really kind of dictate what, what are like the most or kind of the worst things that a relationship can have, kind of those detrimental or more likely to cause a relationship not to last. And one of those, is kind of the stonewalling. So he talks about, you know, criticism. So a partner is really critical of the other person and is always kind of talking about, oh, you messed up here. You're doing this wrong. You don't ever think about, you know, how, how your behavior is going to impact others. And you're selfish. That kind of stuff really drives people away. And it's kind of hard for people to recover from that stuff. It also talks about kind of like stonewalling where people kind of just choose to, you know, try to get away from their relationships. They choose not to, to budge, not to change, not to really be a part of the process. And how that really, you know, kind of doesn't help work on the relationship or doesn't lead to a place of where we're now communicating about, about things anymore. And he talks about people being defensive or always ready to kind of be on the attack. So if you're saying something to me, then I'm already kind of attacking you about it. And maybe what you were saying wasn't going to be threatening to me. Maybe it wasn't going to really hurt me or be something that was a put down, but because I feel like we're at war, then I've got to always be ready. Because if I let my guard down, then I'll lose. And that's really not helpful to relationships either. And then the other thing I think was, I think kind of a contempt type thing where you just kind of hold resentment and stuff like that towards the other person and never really allow them to make up for not being perfect. Because we all aren't perfect, but kind of when you hold that against someone for forever, it's really tough. Mm-hmm. Yes, it is. I mean, God. I mean, going through any of those in a relationship is, unless it is confronted, it definitely wears down the relationship, period. Yep. Yep. And people come into couples therapy kind of just tired. They're tired of the way things have been. They're wanting change to happen. They're tired of the fighting. They're tired of going on this emotional roller coaster where they're not going to be able to do anything. They're just angry at the other person all the time and just in a place of sadness or unhappiness. And they're looking for escape, but they aren't able to kind of see where that can come from. And that's kind of the tough part with couples is that you usually don't get a couple early on before things have gotten bad. You usually get a couple when things are kind of on their last leg or this marriage is close to dissolving. Right. Or they're near divorce or near separation, and they're still in a relationship. And you're saying, well, this is our last effort. If you can't kind of help me figure this out or help us figure this out, then we may not be together much longer. And it puts pressure on a therapist, but I find it fun. I find it fun. You find it fun. You love the challenges, huh? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because it means so much when you're able to kind of get some people to work through that stuff, when you're able to take them in a place where they've come in kind of pretty desperate. They're not really having a lot of hope or optimism about the future. And they're able to get them to see that, you know what, there is something there. There is a glimmer of hope. And when you provide that for them and they're able to kind of work through those things, it's an awesome feeling to have. Right. It doesn't always end like that, but it's great when it does. Right, exactly. I know. I would like to pause for just a second here. And if the audience would like to call up and ask questions of Stevan, the number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. And if possible, call by landline. Okay. So I have got a comment to make on that. I've done some couples therapy myself within a couple of relationships. One of them didn't end so well because it was my husband at the time and myself. Mm-hmm. And we had gone to three therapists who had basically all told us we should get divorced. Wow. Yeah. Well, yeah, and this was in Phoenix, too. So we won't blame Phoenix. But no, it was an interesting process, though. But, you know, I think actually even though, you know, it did end in divorce, I think it helped with the process once we finally decided to split up. Mm-hmm. Because it wasn't as rough. It wasn't as volatile as it could have been because we worked out some of the issues already within the therapy room. So I was grateful for having that experience. The other relationship I had gone through some counseling, and it actually did help with the communication process at least for a while. So, you know, so I saw definitely the good components and the bad components. And, you know, and this was before I became a therapist. So I was almost kind of checking out, you know, what was the therapist doing? What was he or she doing that I felt was really good work and what I thought was questionable? So it was a learning process for me. It really was. But I think for couples who are having issues like that, try to get in before it gets to the point where, it's like it's do or die. We're going to go to therapy or we're going to break up. It's going to be either or. Try to get to that at least 25%, 50% range where, okay, whatever you're doing is not working. So let's try something else. Let's go to a professional. See if we can work through these issues. Sure, sure. I'm glad you shared that because here's the thing that oftentimes when people are having issues, people go to counseling or therapy in general. And that's not just couples counseling. They try it once and they kind of say, well, it's a bad experience and I'm done. And oftentimes that's maybe just that one time. Like maybe you got the therapist that didn't work for you. But that doesn't mean that therapy won't work. And with couples, you'll find that too. I've had couples come in and maybe I was their second or third therapist and the things that the other therapists were doing, they were able to kind of say, hey, this isn't what I liked about that person or I felt like this person didn't give me a space to talk or I felt like this person sided with my partner. And they're able to kind of talk about those things. And, you know, it helps when they come in and explain that stuff and say, hey, here's what we've tried. We've gone to another therapist and here's what we're hoping from you. It's good to kind of be able to tell your therapist that because then it gives them a place to start working with and saying like, well, hey, I know where kind of things can go awry for you guys and where. If I do something that seems or appears or may appear to seem like I'm siding with one person, then I need to kind of clarify that early on or immediately following so that you guys both know that I'm in it for this relationship or I'm here for this couple, not for any one individual. So I'm glad that you said that you'd gone a couple times and were able to find the good parts that you liked about it and that it wasn't this one-time deal and then, you know, it was the end kind of thing. I think that's really important to have people take part of. But then also getting in earlier, like you said, is really beneficial. When you get to a place where you think things are kind of close to ending or dissolving, it's much harder to kind of work back to a place of where things will be good. It's hard to remember the last time something was good. And when you're a therapist and I'm trying to pull those good times from you, those good memories, it's harder for you to get to those. And all you're able to kind of cloud it with is more of what hasn't been working, what hasn't been going right. And so then you get to a place where it's almost kind of the decision's been made before, before we even got to the work, is that this probably isn't going to work. And I almost am sure that therapy is going to be something that's going to kind of solidify this belief that I have. Right. That our relationship is really over. Yeah, exactly. And it gets to the point to where, you know, the couples come in and it's like, okay, I'm going to have a safe place to tell you off and tell you exactly, exactly what I, what I think of you. And I'm going to find somebody else that is going to side with me and say, you know what, you've been a jerk and I'm the one that's right. And, you know, I think a lot of people have that preconceived ideal that that's what's going to happen. They're going to find somebody professional and let's get a side with them. You know, I think that that's problematic. And that, and that's, you're absolutely right. That's what they look for. Uh, there are times when couples have come in and they, when one person in the couple will kind of dominate the, or attempt to dominate the session and they'll do most of the talking about what needs to change and what happened and where things are wrong and trying to get you to really get a view of them. And it's tough. And it's always tough, kind of tough and funny also at the same time to see them when you say, well, that's, that's kind of your, how you see it. And I still want to hear from this other person. And when I also make statements about where they both kind of missed it, and it holds both of them accountable. Like nobody in this first relationship has been perfect. Right. I don't think that any one person is, has done everything right. Cause I don't think, you know, there's any kind of perfect person, uh, walking the earth really. So it's to, to kind of come off and say that, oh, I didn't make any mistakes. And this other person did is going to be tough. And I'm not going to let you get away with in the session saying that, that you've made no mistakes and the other person did. Yeah. You can own them to your behavior. Yeah. Absolutely. You have to own it. You have to own it. Exactly. And that's gotta be tough. I mean, you, you're working with resentment and resistance. Mm-hmm. You know, those are some really tough emotions to sit there and try to, you know, pick through and just soften up and, you know, so that everybody has a chance to really get to their honest selves within the relationship. And it is, it is, it really is tough to kind of get to some of that stuff because couples are, they've been fighting. They've been, at, at, at odds with each other. They've been kind of, I use the analogy oftentimes of, of they're at war, right? And if I'm at war with somebody, I can't expose my weaknesses. I gotta have my defense up. I gotta be ready because when the attack is launched, I need to weather that storm and then be able to launch a counterattack. And so getting them to understand that when you're operating in that, in that type of way, it's going to prevent you guys from having any meaningful talks, talks to come up with solutions. Or talks to kind of figure out, Hey, where are we going to go from here? Where did we go wrong? How do we kind of get back on the right track? And you're always kind of waiting for, well, I can't expose myself and really share those feelings that I have because if I, if I say that stuff, it's probably going to be used against me, or that person is going to get a one up position on me. And then I lost. And so it's this fight against another person or a fight not to lose. Well, while that's happening, both of the relationship is losing. Yeah. Both partners are definitely. Absolutely. There's, there's, there's lose, lose, not win, win. Definitely. Yep. Yep. Okay. Stevan, we're going to take a short commercial break. And when, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some common issues that you see within the therapy we're in within couples. Okay. Sure. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous, psychology, behavioral and health related science graduate degrees at three campuses, Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, DC, and online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever changing mental health needs of society through classroom experience and real world training. The Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services. To individuals and their families. For more information, visit the chicagoschool.edu. And thank you to the Chicago School for sponsoring Psych One-on-One on skidrollstudios.com. And we're back with Stevan Lewis, licensed marriage and family therapist. And before the break, we were talking about some common issues that couples come in with to therapy. Can you discuss that a little bit, Stevan? Sure, sure. So this is going to sound so cliche, but oftentimes what I get most is it's a breakdown in communication. And everybody knows that, hey, yeah, that's where things go wrong. We don't know how to communicate, right? But there's a couple of ways to look at that. So there's couples who come in who really don't have a way to speak to one another. And that's kind of that surface level communication of, I just really don't know how to talk to the other person, that ultimatums are given or a lot of negative language is used, a lot of put-downs, a lot of that criticism or blaming, you know, finger-pointing. Those sorts of things are taking place where they aren't able to have a conversation because the words they use to talk to each other just aren't good. And then there's kind of more of the theme that I see is that kind of honest, deeper level, communication that isn't occurring. So there's these feelings that I have about a situation, and I don't really communicate about that stuff. I think the last time I was on, I talked a little bit about the iceberg concept, where most of the mass of an iceberg is really under the surface level of the water. And it's that communication down at that level of those emotions that people really have a tough time opening up and talking about. And when I say there's a breakdown in communication, communication is a breakdown in that communication, that people aren't able to share those feelings that are really deep and kind of ingrained and where the wrong is also normally felt. So that fact that you didn't call me, and so I'm upset about the fact that you didn't call me, is not the real issue. The message that I receive from that is the issue that I don't matter or I'm not important. And maybe there's a feeling that, you know, I'm less than or that I'm, not going to be enough to, enough for you or worthy enough of your attention. And so you need to start having communication about that, about what the behaviors actually meant for the other person, how they were interpreted and received. And so that's what I try to get couples to really do, is have a conversation about, you know, an event. I'll have them talk about a situation that, you know, maybe their last argument, and get them to start talking about, well, what did that mean for you? You know, why were you so upset about that? What was it that that said? Get them to start talking about more of that deeper level emotional communication, where they felt maybe like a part of them was wronged, or that these kind of fears were brought up in themselves or about their relationship as a result. So I've got a question for you on that, Stevon. What if one of the partners is really intellectual, does not like to get into the emotional realms too much? Sure, sure, sure. Those are always somewhat tough. Because, um, they like to kind of stay in the clouds about things. So it's, you know, you need to let that go. That's not what I was doing. If you think logically about that, they'll talk about kind of fundamentally, this is what's going on. What I try to do is I try to get them to not so much, because they have a tougher time sometimes having that empathy, but I get them to kind of be able to discuss back what it is that they heard. So I have them do like a lot of reflective. I get them to kind of listen to what they heard, and reflect back what it is that they heard. And I get them to kind of add emotions to that or add kind of other feelings that might be going on to that stuff. It's a technique that I kind of learned from like the relationship enhancement type stuff. And it's a thing of where we use a talking stick and they go back and forth. And so for that person who's intellectual, I'll have them kind of respond to whatever the partner said. And so they have to reflect back on that. And so they have to reflect back on that. And so they have to reflect back what it is that the partner said. And the partner is the one who holds the power to say, yeah, you got me. And part of that is just making sure that the person who felt wronged or felt the most emotion is able to kind of tell that intellectual person, hey, look, you know what? I feel better now because I feel like you understood where I was coming from. Yeah. Well, hopefully that intellectual person just doesn't pare it back. Yes. Hopefully they can get into the emotional part of it. Yeah. And I'm there kind of coaching them as they're doing it. And I'm there kind of coaching them as they're doing it. So there's that tendency for them to kind of just reflect back the words verbatim. And it's like, okay, well, what does that kind of mean? And sometimes I'll model for them a little bit kind of what that looks like. And they catch on. I think intellectual people want to do things right and that they kind of want to be able to accomplish stuff. And so I haven't found where they just leave it there that I'm able to kind of coach them through into saying, well, what other things might be going on as a result of that and what did that mean? And what did that mean? So what was one of the toughest couples that you've worked with? What did they come in with? Geez. So I've had some successes. And I think one of the tougher ones would be it was more of a communication thing. So they came in there. They were kind of wanting some co-parenting stuff. And I think that for them the thing that was tough was that they were never able to really kind of acknowledge some of the wrongs of the past. And I think that that was tough for them, that they had kind of broken up. They still have a child together, so they have some sort of relationship. And they were never able to kind of work through the past wrongs that happened. And a lot of that was getting them to admit or take ownership over these things that have happened in the past. And there was a lot of discrediting of whether the impact of some of that past stuff. And we all know that that's really difficult. And I use kind of the analogy of like pain, is that when someone is in pain, it's hard for me to know kind of how much that hurts. But what I do have to know, like the worst thing I can do is say, well, I'm going to go to the doctor. I'm going to go to the doctor. I'm going to go to the doctor. I'm going to go to the doctor. And the worst thing I can do is say that it doesn't hurt that much or that they're overreacting to it or it wasn't that bad. The best I can do is to say, you know, kind of have some empathy for it and say that, well, you know what, I'm sure it hurts. And your pain is absolutely real. So what are some things that I can do to kind of help you out, right, or how can we kind of work through that? And when there's that kind of tendency to just kind of slough off or gloss over and say, well, that wasn't that bad, or you need to just move past it, it really cuts off that kind of empathy. It really cuts off a person. It discounts the other person. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. It cuts off the other person and kind of the whole part of them that is maybe stuck in that place, that they never got some resolution to that. So I think that that was kind of the wall that they hit is that recognizing the impact of the past on one another, where I think one may have been affected a little bit more than the other by it, and that they weren't able to have that kind of empathy for it. Right. Right. And that recognition that, hey, this was a significant event in our relationship, and I'm still impacted by it, and that now colors how we interact today and why we aren't able to kind of co-parent effectively or on the same page is because of this unresolved past issues that we've had. Yeah. Now, you had brought up empathy. How do you work on empathy? How do you work on instilling empathy within a couple when you can see clearly in front of you that there is very little empathy for what the other person is feeling? Because the person is so stuck in their own pain, and they just want to blame the other partner. How do you work with the empathy part of it? Sure. So what I do is, oftentimes when people kind of lack that empathy, when there's this thing, you know, where we've had this situation, I'm not as impacted by it as you were, and I think that you need to kind of get over it, it's that desire of I just want to move on. And what I try to do, and this has kind of worked for me, is that I try to get them, I don't allow them to leave that place so soon. Right? So I'll do things of where they'll try to say, well, yeah, that was so many years ago, and, you know, that has nothing to do with where we are today, and I don't allow that to kind of happen. I say that it actually has everything to do with today. While you can't be, maybe they have a tough time showing empathy or having empathy for that impact of that event on the other person, what they can feel is that their relationship or what they're trying to accomplish now isn't working. And I try to tie that into because this other thing is still unresolved. So at the least, even if you aren't empathetic to the fact that this other person is super hurt by what they're doing, you can still have empathy. Even if you're affected by this past event, you're definitely going to be impacted by the fact that your life is still affected by whatever this person is going through. And it's preventing you from getting what you want. So I try to tie those two things together. So at some level, you're going to have to kind of break down and get to a place, okay, well, then what can we do to kind of move past that? Because if that other person is stuck, you're stuck too, guaranteed. Oh, yeah. Especially if they're married or living together. Right. I mean, that person is there, period. Whether he or she is, you know, there all the time or is in and out or whatever, there's still that energy that is left in the household to have to contend with. Yes, I like that. I like that word, that energy. That energy is there. And they bring that into the therapy session. It's in the room now. And oftentimes that's, you know, there's another person that's crying. You know, another partner that's dealing with the emotions is either silent or something. And it's something there. And we got to acknowledge that. And we aren't going to go anywhere. And you guys aren't going to kind of get these goals that you listed about what you want to accomplish here. That's never going to happen if we don't deal with this thing. Right. So you have to get to what is the main point for them coming into therapy and what is the main point from them being stuck. Is that correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. I have to get them on the same page about something. Now, whether that's the goal that they agree on or kind of where the issue lies, but we've got to agree on something and what we're working towards and what we're trying to accomplish. That has to be kind of a shared vision. And they've got to take ownership over their part in that of how we've gotten here, whether it was intended or not. That's kind of a moot point. We're here now at this place. And I believe because both you guys are here, you want to work to get out of it. And so that's what we're going to focus on, how we're going to work to get out of that. Right. Definitely. So what technique do you use that you feel is one of the most effective for getting a couple to move forward? So what I try to do is... It's proved somewhat successful for me. Depending on kind of the level of conflict or where we are, is I'll try to... If there's a high level of conflict, then I've got to kind of stop that stuff. So I'll put up some rules or parameters about, you know, we can't have these sorts of... You can't use this sort of language if there's expletives used or if there's a lot of blaming. I'll point that stuff out and say, well, you're saying this. Or when you say this negative thing, you can't refer to her like that or you can't say that. Or you can't refer to her like that or you can't refer to him like that. Or if there's a lot of negative nonverbals, I'll point that stuff out to just kind of get to a place where it's like, hey, look, we've got to get on equal ground here. You guys can't continue this anger because we're trying to get out of that. So I kind of shut that stuff off early. But some of the other stuff I do, I try to get them to talk about how they met. Usually that's a time when people will remember that there was this good thing. And this is... It's often amazing to watch is that... You'll see this couple who's kind of highly conflictual and they're angry with each other. And when they talk about how they met, they're smiling. And they're kind of finishing each other's sentences. They're talking about, oh, no, I was at this place. Remember, you came over and you did this. Or we were going this way and you got lost and so you asked me for directions or something like that. And they'll talk about what that was like. And that's a happy moment for them. I try to kind of create this happy space for them or this time when they remember when things were good. And then try to start building from there. And then I do lots of little exercises to get them thinking about how it is that they experience love and communicate and things like that. Because like I said earlier, there's this level of communication where it's that surface level stuff about I really just don't know how to say things the right way. Or there's this other level of communication about these emotions and feelings that are going on a lot deeper. So I'll often use Dr. I think it's Gail. Dr. Gail Marshall. Gary Chapman. His love languages stuff. He has this quiz that he created and it talks about how we experience love. And I get them to kind of start talking about that. So when they're engaged in activities together one person may experience that on a whole different level of connection than another person. And it's important for them to understand those things because you've got to try to match that person based on kind of how they experience connection and that kind of thing. connection and love and happiness and those sorts of things. And I think that that's like usually the kind of good starting point of what I try to do in terms of building this kind of happier environment and getting them to experience each other in a different way, but on a deeper level. To get them to slow down and see the positives of the relationship. Absolutely. Absolutely. To see that things aren't all bad and that maybe you guys just have been misunderstanding each other a whole lot. That when we're spending time together and just sitting watching TV, even though we aren't talking, maybe for one member of the couple, that that's really a big deal. That that time spent communicates all this stuff about how much this person cares about me because they took this time to spend with me, even though maybe they hate this show. Where somebody else will be sitting there and they'll just say, well, we just watched TV. That wasn't anything. And that other person might like, yes. And so when you gave me something, that meant a whole lot to me that you were so thoughtful. You took the time to think of me when I wasn't even around. And it sends all these positive messages that I'm important to you. Whereas somebody could receive a gift and say, oh, man, you just spent money and that doesn't really kind of do it for me. So getting them to kind of understand where they are on that spectrum of how they experience connection, love, those sorts of things is really important to getting them to start moving forward in a positive way and doing more of that stuff. Yeah. And it's probably going in and rekindling that spark that they felt for each other initially and trying to just put some air on those flames and to get that fire going. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Fan the flames. Fan the flames. Yeah. Because I think a lot of couples forget to do that, especially if they've been together for quite a while. Quite a while. And I think there's just this general thought about complacency within a relationship after a while. Because, I mean, a lot of people have grown up, if their parents have stayed together for any length of time, then they've seen their parents go through that stage a lot of times. And they're like, okay, well, we've been together, you know, 10, 12, 15 years or whatever. So now it's our turn to do that complacency. And that's really kind of a relationship killer, especially nowadays. I think people are just not willing to hang out and just do that that much anymore. I mean, it always amazes me when I hear of people that have been married 20, 25, 30, 60 years. I actually met this one couple who had been married for 60 years. That was just incredible. I know. I like, how did you do it? And they said, it's a lot of work. But yeah, you know, and I heard, you know, I heard a lot of one of the most beautiful things too, from what this one woman that I had met in her 70s or 80s. And she'd been with her husband for 60 years. And I said, what was one of the things that kept you together? And she said, I think that he loved me a little bit more than I loved him. And that made all the difference. And I was going, wow, I've never heard that before. So if we would have had more time, I would have really delved into that. But I've never heard that one before. And I thought that was really, really beautiful, especially coming from a 70, 80 year old woman. I, you know, what wisdom. That is awesome. That is awesome to hear those types of things when people have been together for a long time. And that's exactly what it is. Like you said, that complacency that you get in kind of this, this mundane, this routine of what our relationship is. And I think that there's also some hesitancy to really not want to stir the pot or shake things up when there's this feeling that hey, I really don't want to be in this kind of rat race that is our relationship, that I want to us to focus on doing some other things. And to kind of have that, again, there's this fear that I don't want to have that conversation because it might not end well. That might lead to an argument or what if we aren't able to find a way? There's a fear that maybe if we aren't able to find a way to get out of the rat race, that then maybe this relationship is going to end. And we've been together for 15 years or 20 years or 25 years. And how do I start over after that? And I think it's people just going to have to kind of have the conversation, like how you said, is that it's just talk about it. And it's easier said than done. But I think it speaks volumes when people are in really good relationships, are able to really talk about that stuff when something's not right and something's not feeling good for themselves, that they're able to bring that up with their partner because they have a safe relationship and they aren't going to feel like, oh, I'm going to get chewed out or I'm not starting trouble and that we're going to really work to get a solution. And also to have a conversation about whether this person sees that as an issue, too, because maybe it's just me and they don't recognize it. Yeah. And then, you know, it's different ways of presenting what you really feel within the relationship and how to get past being stuck on the inside and feeling like it's going nowhere. That's that's just a sad feeling. Definitely. So it's defeated. It's it's it has to be like one of the worst things for someone to have to think about is that there's a lot of time and investment that goes into a relationship and to kind of have that end. It's what do you take away? I mean, there's some intangibles maybe of, well, you know what I'll look to do next time. But all of that experience and all of that time is kind of kind of lost. And that's tough to kind of let go, especially if if it didn't have to be let go. Sometimes relationships are just talk. It's just classic and unhealthy and they shouldn't kind of continue. But then there are times when people can work through stuff and just don't have a way or a means to do that. Yeah. And I tell you, within intimate relationships, that is schooling right there. That is where you're going to be learning some really deep life lessons is with your partner, period. It's one of the hardest relationships you can go through, period. It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's rewarding. If you can sit there. I was just going to say that. Oh, yeah. It's absolutely the most fulfilling. Yeah. Because it's two different people, two different people from two different backgrounds, two different ways of seeing the world and are deciding to kind of go in together on this relationship and this investment. And it can be so rewarding because it just enhances you. It builds and really helps you grow and become the fullness of who you are as the other person in that relationship. But it can also be tough, too, if that doesn't work out. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm going to just touch upon this because we only have a few minutes left. And this one, I think we could probably do a whole other show on attachment and bringing family issues into a couple. Absolutely. Can you just touch upon it? Absolutely. That is huge. Yeah. The family of origin stuff is really key. And that's another one of those when I bring out the kind of large Post-It and we do some writing about that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have been rather much rather much rather much rather much rather much rather much growing up. So where did they get their messages for what a husband should be or what a man should be doing or what a woman should be doing or what a wife should be doing or a mother or a father? And what was that like for them? And how do they want to be themselves? So bringing that stuff is really a part of who they are because maybe there was no dad in the home. And so women have to be strong is the message that I've received. And so maybe as a female, I'm saying that I need to be more independent. I need to call the shots and I need to be the one to make the decisions or I need to have myself prepared because you can't count on men. Or maybe as a man, then I'm seeing a strong woman and I'm saying, well, I need someone who's not going to be dependent on me, is going to be able to hold her own and be able to take care of herself if things got bad or is not going to cause me to, I don't have to take care of so much and kind of be as connected or so kind of responsible. And then that can kind of impact how the quality of relationship is. I'll come from a house where I saw a two-parent household and maybe mom was a stay-at-home mom and dad was a breadwinner. Then there's all these other concepts about what I feel a man should be doing or what a woman should be doing. And that might not kind of mesh with this other background. So all that family of origin stuff really plays a key role into who we are in relationships. And people, I don't want to try to dismiss that stuff or don't talk about it as much, but I always kind of caution people and tell people they need to really get an understanding of what that is because that shaped who we each are, each individual, how we experience the world, how we experience our partner, how we experience one another. And our expectations for ourselves and our partner come from that. And so you've really got to have some level of awareness and understanding about that and then be able to kind of have a conversation about, okay, how's that going to work? And then that's kind of what I'm trying to do. Okay. How's that stuff playing into the relationship that I'm in now? And how are we going to work through some of that stuff? Yeah. And is it realistic at this point? Yeah. Especially since, I mean, the family dynamics have changed so much in the United States. Absolutely. So many single female headed households. Yes. Yeah. So that really changes the dynamics right there, period. Mm-hmm. You know? And it's getting real with yourself. It's getting real with your life history. Yep. And recognizing that it plays a major role into, like how you talked about that list in the beginning, that idealized list of here's my perfect partner is based on what you've seen whoever that person might be. So, I mean, if you're a female, what you've seen men do in your life. If you're male, what you've seen women do. And it shapes, it shapes how you interact and how you approach the opposite sex or the same sex or what have you. Yeah. Or how many romance movies you've watched. I mean, on Tickflix. I mean, we have to add that concept into this whole scenario, don't we? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because that tells us how the fairytale of what relationships are and, you know, we always get the girl or the guy at the end. Right. And sometimes that doesn't always happen, but hopefully, hopefully we can all shoot for our living happily ever after. You know, it can happen in bits and pieces, but like my 80 year old friend said, it's work. Sure, sure. And that's the other thing. I think that people kind of mistake that concept of it's work as that it's difficult or it's not worth doing. If I have to work at it, then that wasn't meant to be. And that's not even the case. That's not the case at all. I mean, if you want to stay in shape, you got to work out. You can't work out once and then stop. You know, to stay good at a sport, you have to practice. So the same holds true for your... Your relationships. You've got to put the time and effort into it, into making it what it is that you want it to be. And if you stop doing that, then, you know, kind of shame on you for complaining about things going wrong if you aren't putting the time and effort in to make it right. Right. It's a beautiful process, but it is 50-50. In most relationships, it is a 50-50 partnership. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that doesn't, you know, kind of... It's not a thing of kind of responsibilities or anything. It's not a thing of kind of responsibilities or anything like that in a relationship. It's, you know, everybody has to carry their own load or whatever their role is and how we define those roles and expectations. They got to play their role or play their position. Most definitely. So, Stevon, if anybody in the audience would like to contact you, how can they do so? They can call me. My phone number is 310-597-7580. They can email me. My email address is stevonlewis.com. M-F-T, that's S-T-E-V-O-N-L-E-W-I-S. The letters M is in Mary, F is in Frank, T is in Thomas, at gmail.com. Or they can go to my website, which is my first name, Stevon, S-T-E-V-O-N, and my last name, Lewis, L-E-W-I-S, .com. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on Against Stevon. I really enjoyed having you on. That was great information. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks. Take care. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. And if the audience would like to contact me, my phone number is 562-234-4650. I'm on Facebook at Psych1on1, that's P-S-Y-C-H, the number one, O-N, and another number one. Or Twitter me at J-G-O-O-D-E. I really appreciate you listening in tonight. If you would like to go to any of my prior shows, they are all archived on skidrowstudios.com or at iTunes Store under Podcast on Psych1on1. I so appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye now.