Shame in BDSM with Ms. Diana

I'm not aware of that differentiation. We educate. The things I learn from you. I know. Why do you think I like trivia? Well, I like us both at trivia, let's face it. Hello, good evening and welcome to Intellectual Kink. Hello, good evening. I am Insidious Muse. And I'm Service Slut. And we are welcoming back the fantastic Ms. Diana to our program. She's been on it a couple times before. Actually, she hasn't been on Intellectual Kink. She's been on The Love Bite. Yes, but it's, you know, whatever, same show really. But whenever she was on, people were like, who was that? When are you having her back? Well, tonight we're having her back. Mm-hmm. So fantastic. How are you? I am doing very well. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. We love it when we get to see you. There's a knot in my cord. Oh, no. What's going on? There's not a knot somewhere else. What are you doing where you are unable to really engage with us? You said that I can update my status on like FET or like the Twitter to let people know to hear the show. That's what I am doing. That's all you have to say. Is that that? That's what you're doing. Okay. That's what I'm doing. I'm just always like paranoid because, you know, like I'll say that I'm doing something and you're like, well, you're not supposed to do that. And then I'll be like, ah. I do that in my head. That was pretty impressive. Do you do that because you're questioning the validity of my statement or because you have forgotten conversations? We've had in the past about very specific things that you're not supposed to do. A mixture of that and then me doubting myself. Yeah. Yeah. And then being like, I don't know what to say. It's been a rough week for you. You know, it really has. It has been a really tough week in the life of submission. That it has. That it has. And why is that? Just, I don't even want to call them slip ups anymore because they're like just. Nancy has a thing where she doesn't do the things that I ask of her on a consistent basis. And then she falls off the track. One of the things is journaling. It's mandatory. And she hasn't journaled in three months, would you say? Consistently. Yeah. Yeah. Three months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't journal because she doesn't want to look inside into the deep, dark, mucky muck as to what's going on. And the problem is when she doesn't do that, she falls further and further away from her submission. And then in stupid, childish ways, she acts out and defies me. And. Oh my God. That's a picture of Nancy I just don't recognize at all. People always go, oh, can you clone her? And I'm like, you just don't know. How much work? Yeah. How much work Nancy is. She's a lot of work. Put that cloning on hold. Right. And this actually has been something that's been very consistent throughout our relationship that I, and the option is I can, you know, I can rule her with an iron fist, but that's not my style and I really don't want to. I don't want to micromanage. That's not what I want to do. It's not why I'm into this game. It's not, it sounds fun to me. And if that's what she needs, then we can't do this together because I'm not what she needs then, which is cool. It is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. The way I feel about it is if you're not making my life easier, you're definitely not having a place in my life. Right. And there's been a lot of not making my life easier. A lot of that. So, um, it's just been really, really hard because, you know, when, when the door opens, I'm no, it stays open. And it's one of those situations now where, so she journaled finally. And now it's like, okay, you're journaling every single day now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. adequately digging in. You got to do it every day because you're clearly not getting it. And she journaled and I was like, that's really interesting. And it was so surface and not at all going deep into what's going on. You need to dig deeper. She's like, I thought I did. Really? Because you lack depth? You know Nancy, she doesn't lack depth. So it's just, you know, it's a difficult week for her because it's really making her have to go deep down into where all the demons and the yucky stuff is that none of us like to go into. And sometimes you can give a journal a kick in the pants by requiring that they address a specific question that you ask because then they can't avoid dealing with that topic. I've done that. And when there's been specific, especially there was a, this happened to us in the past and the answer is, why are you defying me? That was the question. Why are you? Why are you defying me? It was a really long journal entry. It was kind of like if you're a teacher and you get that paper that's 10 pages and it says a lot of bullshit. That was that because it was, I don't think I am. And if I am, I don't know. It was because she doesn't, and I understand it. Wanting to look at that is a very difficult, challenging thing because that's a, she wants to be that submissive that everybody looks at and wants to clone and she's shiny and she's so wonderful. And she has that in her, but nobody's like that. I don't have that expectation. But the problem is that you have to address the ebbs and the flows in order to be a whole person. So there's that. So it's been a tough week. All right. And the week's not over, so. We're only on Wednesday. Right. So fantastic. How'd you like that? Just good? Just awesome. Yeah. So great. Everything is so great. Wow. Should I have worn my hip boots? Apparently so. Apparently so. My waders. A lot of bullshit going on there. No, there was no bullshit. There was no bullshit. Yes, that was me being sarcastic. Who wouldn't be happy about any of that being talked about? Let's not talk about that anymore. Let's talk about our topic. Let's do that. Yeah, but the reason our show is good is because we do talk about that stuff. Yes, this is true. I can't tell you how many people, independently, have come up to me and said, oh my God, the honesty between you and Nancy, you know, it just lets me know that a relationship has problems. And this is one way that people deal with that problem. And there's other ways. There's a bunch of different ways. But this is the way we deal with our problems. That's the way it goes. Sharing it with people. Well, and you know, and not just that, because we actually share it with people after we've dealt with it more often than not. Yeah, and to be honest, sometimes I feel like we share a lot more here than we do elsewhere. Yeah. Like even one-on-one. I mean, yeah, obviously we share one-on-one, but I feel like here it's just kind of like you can't really, you can tell. You can tell when there's something wrong with us. So it's like there's no hiding it. It's true. Yeah, but especially if you don't have a guest, you still are one-on-one. There just happens to be a mic in front of your mouth, but it's still one-on-one. We've had some really, really intense, intimate conversations here in studio. And it's really interesting because, it could have been a conversation we could have had sitting in my bedroom, but it was here. And it was for however many people download our show to listen to as well, which for good or bad, I certainly am not a big, I'm like, hey, we have a reality show or whatever. I'm not one that wants to air a dirty laundry, but if the things that we go through in our relationship help other people, isn't that what the show is about? And it is. And it is. I get it. I get it. That's not our topic. No, thank God. Thank baby Jesus. I don't think that the topic is any easier than that. Oh, no. Yeah. I think it's less personal. Yes. So when we get someone fantastic like Ms. Diana, and who is a marriage and family therapist, and she's got like, you know, a million years experience in the scene, and she came and told us her journey of how it all started, you know, we'll have to find the links and we'll share them with people. And she's made of awesome. And she is. She's made of awesome. She's made of awesome. But I started thinking, there's something that's going on behind the scenes with Nancy and I that is not going to be addressed today that will be addressed in the future, which is not a bad thing. Thank you. But the concept of shame in BDSM, and when I say that, I mean, it's a very large topic of shame. It's not about necessarily, I guess it could be about, you know, being shame, feeling shame for participating in it if you want, but I'm looking at specific acts. Let me give you an example. So humiliation. Love it, love it, love it. It took me years to accept that I wasn't a bad person for, and I wasn't a shameful person for enjoying that particular kink. Because to me, under those, the old ways of thinking, a person that does that is a bully. Somebody that humiliates somebody else is a bully. And I'm like, am I a bully? Oh my God, I'm a bully. I'm a horrible human being. And the world was coming to an end. But there was a lot of shame, and it was very hidden that this is something that I secretly enjoyed, but that it would somehow reflect negative on me. It was very difficult. It took a lot of years. And really it took basically positive feedback from a bottom who enjoyed it for me to be like, this is okay because they like it too. Okay. I'm not a bad person. I'm not a bad person. I'm not abusive. I'm, you know, all of those things. But that kind of concept of shame where there's something that you're interested in and you feel this sense of self-shame. I just wanted to talk to you about people that are going through that and what's kind of the emotional process and how can they deal with it? I know how I dealt with it, but I'm fucked up. So who knows how other people deal with it? You know, you have to look beyond BDSM. I can remember when I was, when I was coming into my sexuality, at least in my own mind. I mean, I wasn't acting on it, but the whole idea of masturbation, the whole idea of playing with my body. And I was raised in a very repressive period. I don't want to tell you how far back ago that was. Dinosaurs still roamed the planet. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, you know, I think lots and lots of people lay in their beds at night knowing that God could see this terrible thing that they were doing. Right. And it couldn't be because the church said you weren't supposed to do that. and what if your folks walked in? You'd be so humiliated and it would be wrong and the earth is going to swallow you up. And so we experience shame even for things that we consider not around the bend, not mainstream. Right. I mean, we consider, we find shame even in things that are mainstream is what I'm saying. So, the process of dealing with how we place ourselves on the, quote, moral ladder or acceptable behavior ladder is in society in general has to come down to how honest we are with the person in the mirror and how willing we are to be really open and really expose ourselves to ourselves so that the decisions we make about who we are are really open to us. my my my my times that I went through. I spent lots and lots of time in self-reflection and getting to know the chick in the mirror. And I really wanted to know who and what I was and what I was about. Of course, I was 150 years old when I was born and I just keep getting younger. But, and that's partly true. I mean, I did come into this world knowing way more than I should have about a lot of things and not knowing where that information came from, but it was previous lives. That's a whole other topic. And I remember going to a party. I was in college. I happened to be the only white person at the party. And that didn't bother me at all. And as is often the case, I happened to be in a group of primarily men. The women were on the front lines. I was on the other side of the room, not really happy with the fact that I happened to be in the conversation with the guys because I didn't play a lot of the games that women were playing at that time, or girls, I suppose. And I remember this one guy said, you know, you're really a terrific person. There's just one thing wrong. And I said, really? I said, what? And he said, your parents were white. I fell. On the floor. It was hysterical. It was wonderful. It was so great because I, you know, I wanted to know what was wrong. I wanted to correct that one thing that was wrong with me. And it's, there's nothing you can do about that. It's a done deal, but it was brilliant and it was beautiful. And I have had, fortunately, a lot of people in my life who have called me on, whatever minimal angst I tended to create for myself, they still required me to see things in perspective and to, you know, get over myself. And the reality is that life is just too short to get your pantyhose in an uproar. It's, it's, it's all good if you allow it to be. Looking back, I don't want to be anybody else. I mean, I've got, you know, aches and pains. I'm growing older. And as Betty Davis said, growing old ain't for sissies. And I'm, I'm not, I mean, I'm not wealthy and I'm not a lot of things, right? And I'm an overweight woman in a playboy world and all kinds of things. But, you know, I like who I am. I like who I'm becoming. I like the fact that I am in the process and a work in progress. And if I could go back, and I don't want to, please listen to me, universe, I don't want to. If I could go back, I wouldn't change anything. Because it's like rocket trajectory. Being off one inch down here on Earth is bazillions of miles in space. And, and I don't want to change who I am now. And changing anything back then would do that. And I, I love my life. Oh, my God, I am blessed. I am a favorite. I am a favorite. I am a child of the universe. And I don't want to trade places with anybody. So there. All right. Show's done. I look at, I mean, everybody has, has their, their journey in, in life, in sexuality, in BDSM. And for me, whenever I've encountered these moments of shame, whatever it is, God, the shame I had about masturbation. Oh, my God. My mom sent me to a therapist when I was like 17. And I'm like, oh, what if they know? What if they can find out that I do this thing? I mean, I didn't tell my mom that, but it was just such a shameful moment. And I think it boils down to my, whenever I'm having these experiences, my belief of what society is expecting of me. And that somehow I'm not conforming to this predetermined role of a good person, good girl. Good whatever. And I think that's when I personally feel shame because I'm not, I'm incongruent with that. But you know, you really have to take a look at whether or not the people making the judgments are healthy. You know, you. I agree. You base, we, whoever, we who are outside of the mainstream until we're strong enough, make decisions. I think that's the assumption that because we are outside of the quote norm end quote, we're the ones that are wrong. But why is it okay to see people brutalized on film, on television? Why is it okay to see animals slaughtered? Why is it okay to see all of this blood and gore? But it's not okay to see people making love. It's not okay. It's not okay to see childbirth. It's not okay. You know, and it's not as bad now as it was when the dinosaurs roamed the planet and I was younger. But I kept thinking if the values say violence and brutality is more acceptable than love making, then I don't, this is not an agenda. I want to buy into. And if I'm an outlaw, I'm going to fucking love. Excuse me. Can I say that? Yes, you can. I'm going to love being an outlaw. And I do. I like the fact that I'm an outlaw on whatever level. And I'm not even as much of an outlaw as most of my friends, which is really a crack up. You know, I, but I, but I embrace my outlawhood. I agree. I agree. And I think that the, the rules and the expectations of society are definitively fucked up and they're all there designed to control masses without a doubt. I mean, I got on this soapbox many times, probably privately, maybe not on the show, but, um, and I think that that, that is where each person individually struggles with is building up their personal strength to stand tall, even when they have nobody around them. And you can only do it by taking those scary, fearless, turning the lights on and looking at who the hell you really are and deciding you either like it or you're going to change it to something you like better. But the job is that you have to do the work. And if you don't, you are constantly vulnerable. You are wearing that target huge front. And back for anybody that wants to take pot shots. For me, some of the issues that you were talking about again had to do with race. I, I grew up being active in the civil rights movement and I couldn't take on a black slave or submissive. I take a single tail whip to a black back. Oh my God. You know, the lightning would come and strike me dead. And it wasn't until. Yeah. Until I met a wonderful, delicious, gorgeous black man. Who was a happy masochist and loved being a playmate of mine. And, and he said, you're prejudiced. You won't let me be submissive. You won't let me be masochistic just because I'm black. And I went, whoa, wait a minute. What did I do? How did this get turned around? And, and he helped me get past it. But. It was an issue for me for a long time because I do like using a single tail. I like whipping people. I like leaving marks. Oh, yum. Don't get me excited. I'm going to, I'll start panting on, on the radio. That's okay. But, and, and thank God for all those wonderful people in my life who have helped me continue to grow. And many of them were the people who were my playmates. Who were my, who were submissives, whether they belonged to me or not. But our interactions in this power exchange relationship allowed me to learn from them. Thank you, Jesus. I would never have been able to fist anybody if I hadn't been taught by a submissive. I mean, it's someplace I automatically, my head said, oh, you know, stick your fist in somebody's ass. Hello? That's not something that just popped into your mind automatically. And it usually doesn't just slip like that. I mean, that takes work. Yeah, really. So, no, I mean, I'm, I'm eternally grateful for all of the lessons and all of the people who bothered to take the time to help me with these lessons. So there too. I like, one of the things that I love about BDSM and I suppose sexuality or whatever in general is you're only limited by your imagination and your desire to go out. That's the best way to go to other things, other kinks, other interests, other levels, whatever it may be. And for me, that can sometimes when you broach into a new area, that can be like, okay, well, this is, this is foreign territory is this. And sometimes you still find that there's a little bit of that shame, depending on what it is. Sometimes there's a little bit of that shame still there. And sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's just you're tenuous. You're, you're unsure of your skillset. of your ability, of your dumbliness, submissiveness, whatever it might be. But there are some things that if you have a recording in your head of what you should or should not be doing and whatever you're interested in is in direct violation of that, that is where I see people struggling. Should is one of those words that you really need to take a look at in terms of whether or not you want to keep it in your life or in your vocabulary. It's a real minefield. Should is a killer. Should is... It just really fucks with us. It really does. It does. It's like words like can't. I mean, my daddy always told me there's no such word as can't. There's I won't and there's I don't want to. But barring physical limitations, there is no can't. So when I say or when someone else says, I can't write my journal. Sorry, honey, I had to go there. You know, when I hear the can'ts, I am just not really very sympathetic to the use of that word. And I may not get a change in the behavior of the person, but I want them to own. I want them to own the fact that I'm a person. I want them to own the fact that the choice they're making is a conscious choice. It's not an inability. It's a choice not to. And you're welcome to make that choice, but own it. That's what's really important. And you were talking about... I don't remember what it was you were talking about that triggered this thought. I used to do some work in a men's prison. And one of the things that I learned is that prison administration, is that the prison administration consciously encourage racial tension. Because as long as the inmates are fighting each other, they're never going to get it together enough to call the administration on its shit. Yeah. And to require change. So, oh, you were talking about manipulation and power and those judgments being a matter of control. And you're right. You're absolutely right. And I find that if I make a quick A-B switch in my head between, you know, like right, wrong, yes, no, whatever it might be, and I just make a decision that this is... And it's just in my head. This is something that I am. This is who I am. This is what I am. And I allow my brain to do it. I might not be jumping out into whatever this kink is or isn't. I guess things that I thought were very risque, breath play, golden showers. Oh, my God. Just skating, knife play, whatever those things are. When I just allow my brain to process it and accept it, then all of a sudden it's very natural. It's like, well, but of course. But of course I would have this knife in my hand. Why would I not? It belongs in my hand. But I have to make a decision long before that ever happens. It's one of the reasons I tell newcomers, don't... Use the word never. I promise. When the universe hears you say never, they go, oh, you don't think so? And they get you. I am doing things I never thought that I would be doing. But there was a time when I didn't have half of the vocabulary for kink or BDSM or power exchange relationships that I do now. I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I... I'm never thought I would embrace needles. I never thought I'd be throwing a single tail whip. I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, how can you be a nice person and say, oh my God, I had such a great time. I was beating the shit out of him all night long. I mean, you know, I have playmates who are really masochists and really pain sluts and really love being verbal and vocal around it. And it just feeds my heart. Oh, I love it. Yum. I like it too. Yeah. It's so exciting. Ooh, ah, ooh, ah. When I was 19, I worked at a, I had a second job in a sex shop working the night shift. And some, you know, I was this young blonde 19 year old working alone. Just let me point out working alone, fantastically safe. And I can't imagine. I got a lot of really interesting offers when I worked at the sex shop. My favorite, which wasn't my favorite at the time, it was the grossest. Like, ew, oh my God. Some guy offered me $300 to pee on him. And I was just like, like, whatever, who would do that? And I look back now and I'm like, damn, 300 bucks back then was a lot of fucking money. I should have taken it. It's a lot of money now. It's a lot of money. That is true. It's my airfare to Tucson. Right? Like, damn, all I would have taken is just, just. Yeah. Squat and pee. Okay. Let's go in the alley. Let's do this. Give me money. But you know, I didn't obviously, but it was one of those things. I was ill prepared at the time to accept that as a possibility. But, and I even said, oh, I'd never do that. Yeah, there you go. But, but see, that's, we, we, we are not born full blown pervs. We are not born. I mean, we don't walk in the door and, and we don't have to say, I know everything there is to know about this. I mean, if you, if, if we do, we tell everybody to avoid that person instantly. They're crazy and liars. But thank God that there's a chance for progress. When I was eight years old, someone said, if you had one wish, what would it be? And I said, I want to know everything about everything. Well, now in my advanced old age, I still want to know everything about everything, but I don't want the last piece of the puzzle until about 10 minutes before I go. I don't want to know everything about everything until I die. I figure I could stand knowing it all for 10 minutes and then I'd get bored and it would be time for me to go. But it would be horrible if you knew everything about everything. It would be very boring. Yeah. So I, I love the fact that I'm, oh my God, even after all of these years, I don't know, 30 some, 30 plus years in this scene, I can't even remember. It's been so long. I'm still learning new things. I, I earned my, I earned my, I earned my, I earned my, I earned my, I earned my, my, my lavender hanky at desire a couple of years ago because I had never done stapling before. And I did stapling and I, cause part of the game at the, for that weekend is on the last night, you get to collect hankies for the, yeah. You know, the, the colored, coated, the flagging. Go one of these years. Yeah. You guys, you really do need to come. It is an amazing, that's what everybody says. Amazing weekend. I mean, I have been at every single one since the beginning. I have not missed one. Awesome. And I'm registered for next year too, because registration is open. I didn't get to be first, I think, but I, I'm, I'm already registered. Yeah. So, but no, I mean, you know, I'm still, I'm still hitting things I haven't done before. People keep inventing new things to do for God's sakes. It's true. You know, 20 years ago, we didn't play with fire, as I recall. Ooh. You know. Fire. Yeah. And now they do it with moose and. Oh yeah, that's so much fun. Which is cool. Light the moose. Yeah. Run a race, have the flames racing each other. But, yeah, no, there are all kinds of things that, that have grown and changed and, and, and you add new technologies and, and. Yeah. Electricity becomes a whole thing, you know. Electricity. Fun. Yes. Electricity, electricity. No? No. No? We're not doing schoolhouse rock now? No, we're not. Damn. You've been quiet. I have been quiet. I'm just kind of taking it in. I mean, I, I think about how, you know, you have that urge to do. I think about how you're going to do something new, something different, something that kind of seems like it'll be fun, you know? And then you start doing it and then like there's that like creep, that little voice in the back of your head that's, you shouldn't be doing this. What are you doing? Or not, no, no, no, worse than that. What does this mean? What does this mean? Does this, what does this mean about me? Why am I doing this? I have to dissect it. And then it's kind of almost like. Start. It starts not to be fun to explore it. It starts to be a little anxiety producing. I mean, I don't, I don't think that everything has to mean something. I don't think it means anything. I don't think it, aside from the fact that it means that we're perverts, I don't think it really means anything that we like doing kinky things. But you know, there's that point from what does this mean to, okay, this is just a regular night. I mean, that's a process. And I just, I think there's this kind of like self exploration that has to happen to get past that point. But I mean, that just, I mean, I don't know like what it takes to stop asking what does this mean? Well, you know, it can mean something, excuse me, it can mean something really simple. It may simply mean that it feels good so you want to do it. You know, I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes, what was that old commercial? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes because you're doing it and it feels good, that's the only justification you need. That's what it means because somebody else likes how you do something and you like making people happy. That's reason enough. That's what it means. It means you like pleasing people and you pleased someone. Yeah. So that was a good thing for you to do based on the fact that you identify yourself as someone who gets great joy out of pleasing someone else. What more justification do you need than that? God, why do you like having your feet rubbed? Because it fucking feels good. It feels great. Geez. I don't see how that's a problem. You know, yeah, I don't need, I don't go for, I don't think there's anything philosophical about the fact that... Yeah. ...I am a devout hedonist with a voracious appetite and I love the fact that there are people in the world who love to feel that hedonistic appetite. Thank you, God. I love that there's a yin to the yang. That's another great thing about BDSM. Yeah. Leave it to me to complicate things. No, no, no, no. I mean, I know exactly, I know where you're going and I know backstory as well, but one of the things that's fantastic that might help a lot is, I don't know, journaling. Just throwing that one out there. That's notoriously very helpful in people figuring their shit out. That's why I didn't want to talk. Yeah, but... That wasn't a comeback. Well, no, but again, I mean, I'm not saying I'm always right, but I am now. But you know, it's not even just about journaling. Sometimes it's really important for us to see things in black and white and hard copy when there is a decision that I have to make or when I want to determine...or when I...and teaching people how to find partners, whether it's just a play partner for the evening or whether it's someone that you want to interact with on a longer term. I said, you have to sit down, you have to make your list and the list needs to be organic. All that... Yeah. all the things I can't live without and all the things I can't live with. Well, I can't live without someone who makes less than 250,000 a year. I can't live with someone who snores, whatever those things are on the lists. And then you look at the list and you keep it going for three or four weeks and you go back and you go, well, if he was solvent and employed and we didn't have to worry about whether or not that bag of potato chips is in the budget, it doesn't have to be 250. So you've got to cross that off the list because that's not a bottom line. Well, if he was everything else I wanted, he, she, whatever, I excuse the use of that particular pronoun. If he or she were everything else that you wanted but snored. You know what? The pickings out there are really slim and if you've got everything else going for you except snoring, put earplugs plugs in, but cross snoring off the list because that's not going to be the deal breaker. So you want to get your lists to the bottom line. Those things you absolutely must have. I must have someone who has a sense of humor. That's absolutely critical to me. If he was everything else I wanted or if she was everything else I wanted, I wanted or if whatever gender or combinations thereof was everything else I wanted and didn't have a sense of humor that's a deal-breaker I would have to walk away and the other one on the other side of the list for me is jealousy if everything else was perfect and this person was jealous I would walk away because jealousy is the single most destructive element to relationship on the planet my personal opinion but that's I know that those are bottom lines for me because I don't assign a task without doing it myself yeah I'm dealing with my you know when I'm working with people yeah absolutely no I mean my the whenever whenever for me whenever I've been going through this whatever be a sense of shame or a sense of struggling with something I I write I mean I'm a writer that's just what I do but I write and I write and I write and I write and I write and I find it very therapeutic I find being able to and I go back and I read it and I and you know sometimes I listen to music that's a thing these things happen too well I gather information I gather information I gather information I gather information I gather my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my experience that I'm having with it that I kind of see that as a positive well it's nice to have validation right you know I mean and and when you when you see other people who are accepting of what it is they do and therefore accepting of the fact that you do the same kinds of things there is a sense of validation involved and that's always reassuring but you can't always depend on the fact that that's going to be there at some points in your life you're going to have to deal with the chick in the mirror and and you're going to have to come to terms with her let's not talk to that bitch you kind of have to yeah it's kind of not an option it's kind of mandatory yeah yeah that's uh that that cute look doesn't work it doesn't work for my fucking seven-year-old it sure as fuck isn't gonna work coming from you not giving you a cute look that's all I had and nothing else to give you had nothing else anything to stop the conversation that's what you were going with no more puppy dog eyes no more no more that shit does not work there never was really she never you've never really fallen for any kind of anything shit doesn't work just makes me want to slap people I just wanted to go back for a second and talk about humiliation humiliation and I think it's wonderful that you love it and I think it's wonderful that there are people who love being on the receiving end of it it's just very uncomfortable territory for me because the line between how fun it's a humiliation scene and you have just devastated the person you're working with is so fine and so faint its its ends up red lights in my mind but if my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my talk about when I discuss it is that fine line and that you don't just go into it willy nilly that you really need to do your homework and you need to know somebody like I don't participate in humiliation play with somebody unless I know them and I mean I know them and even then oh they're still landmines oh yeah you're still gonna have oopsies because somebody can't tell you everything because there are things that they've repressed they've just hey that didn't happen especially if they had some sort of an abusive past or something happened and I stepped on landmines and it's like alright so here's we're gonna do this triage right now we're gonna do this we're gonna deal with the moment and then we're gonna be like you might wanna go to therapy talk to a professional about that that isn't me so that you can deal because that's obviously an issue and I'm not saying do it so that you can do the play do it because it's seriously affecting your mental health but yeah I mean humiliation is one of those kinds of plays that you know it's great when people go oh you know call me a sissy call me a little bitch call me a slut and that's cool if that's all you're gonna do but then you're really service topping which isn't what I do it's only fun when all parties involved are having fun yes you know I think that it can get like really serious and I mean serious in the sense that like you know nobody's laughing but I think as long as it stays in that little box and everybody's on the same page we know what we're getting into I mean at least which is where negotiation comes in right it's a lot more it's a lengthier process to negotiate humiliation play in my opinion I'll tell you right now I don't think I would let someone else other than you do that to me well I know you really well yeah but you know but again that's not necessarily a guarantee I mean I was traveling with a sub that I had been with for a long time so I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that for several years and you know it was a very open revelatory stage for you know for both of us and we were traveling somewhere and I just didn't want to deal with taking toys I didn't want to deal with airport security and I don't even like checking my things on because I know I'm not always going to get them all back again you know I won't travel with my knives because I know I'm going to lose my knives so I only do knife play programs locally when I can cart them in my car I'm not but anyway so we went empty handed and even empty handed I know that I've got a whole shit load of toys available hands, teeth, nails, feet whatever anyway and voice mind fucking is some of the best kind of fucking oh god which is different than humiliation it is but said, look, ma'am, I found this extension cord. I could just get on my knees on the bed and you could hit me on the butt. And I said, okay. So after dinner, we came back to the room and he gave me the extension cord and he got undressed and got on the bed. And I hit him once and he freaked out. This is years and years of play and we've never had a problem. He had completely forgotten that the only time he was ever abused was with an electric cord. It brought it back. I mean, you know, I just stopped and we did two hours of aftercare and held him until he cried it all out. And scary time. I think you have to be prepared to accept that that kind of thing is a possibility. Yeah. In any kind of play, because it happens. I mean, I've heard, I've had it happen to myself more than once. And I've heard the stories from all sorts of people. You never know. This, it happens. I think if you go into it thinking, okay, I've done my negotiating. I've got all these other things here. I got a blanket ready for aftercare. And you're thinking, I've got all my bases covered. I think that's a wrong approach. I don't think you can always have 100% bases covered. Well, I think when you're dealing with human beings, you can't write a script and have an expectation that the scene will follow it to the details. I mean, there are some doms. There are some doms out there that do that. And it's like, wow, that seems, for me, I love the organic nature of a scene that it takes a complete different turn, depending on how your bottom is reacting, depending on how you're feeling. It's fantastic. But that's part of it is you can't be like, I've got everything is, all the checkboxes are done. I'm safe, you know. And that's an important thing to be a part of the negotiation, which is, and should we step on a landmine? We are both going to stop whatever's going on and deal with it together. Now, that's all that you can say, because you can't predict the future. But a part of the negotiation should include the fact that it may not work out the way we want, but we will still stay and deal with it. Because the last thing in the world that you want to have happen is somebody running naked down the street, you know, away from wherever you are. Right. Because then there's no chance of repairing it. Right. And so, you know, I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Right. Or somebody who stoically says, no, I'm fine. When you're like, no, you're not, you're not fine. That's bullshit. And then they walk off. Oh, well, they didn't care about me or whatever. Come on. Let's not be this. That's why I'm a little prejudiced against playing with Marines. They just love being stoic and taking all that you've got and never making a sound. And I'm going, I hate the no sound. You are not feeding me. You are not giving me any energy back. I want the loop. Mm-hmm. I throw energy at you and you throw it back at me. And if we're not playing this game together, it's not fun for me. And if it ain't fun, I don't do it. What's the point? Especially when it takes so much energy out of the top to do these things. I mean, give, you know, I'm not going to give it to a black hole because what I got is finite. At some point, I'm going to run out until I can replenish someplace else. So, yeah, I feel you. Absolutely. I like sounds, too. I like it when they make a sound. Ah, yum. I don't mind some tears. Oh, yeah. That's nice, too. Holding someone and wiping their tears away while they say, thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Oh, God. That's very nice, too. That's so good. That's very nice, too. Yummy. Make them kneel and kiss your feet afterwards. Sorry. It's all good times. It's all good times. Yeah. What else would you like to know? I don't know. Just trying to think. Because I think that I like the idea of when dealing with any of these situations is getting to know the person in the mirror. Do you have, I mean, let's say somebody's really been putting it off. They really are avoiding that conversation with themselves for whatever reason. Do you have any guidance for how they can start doing it? Well, you do have a leg up if you're dealing with somebody who truly is slave-wired or submissive. Because bottom line, they want to be there for you. Bottom line. Their idea of what that means may be different than yours. But I never have to beat up a slave because if I... Look at them as if I'm disappointed, they're just going to beat the shit out of themselves. And I... The last one who was living with me, and I finally had to stop and say, look at me. And I faked slapping her face back and forth. I said, beating you up is my job. You're taking away my job. Stop beating yourself up. And let's deal with... Let's deal with what's going on. If I am unhappy, I will tell you. If I'm just disappointed, it means there's room for improvement. But if you beat yourself up and crawl in a corner somewhere, what good are you going to be to either of us? Not going to happen. That's just not acceptable. So, because we've got these people who are wired the way they are, and thank God there are people in the world who are wired the way they are. Okay. I can say, look, by not knowing what's going on for you, you are keeping information from me. You are tying my hands and preventing me from having this be the best thing possible for both of us. Is that what you really want to do? Oh, no. Oh, no. I don't want to do that. I never intend to do that. I don't want to hurt you. Well, then you need to help me. And helping me is knowing as much as you can about you so I can know as much as I can about you so that we can get the most advantage from our interactions. And usually when I put it on them in that way, it makes a big difference. Okay. Because suddenly they are now responsible for my unhappiness or my dissatisfaction or my being deprived of something. And that's often the kick in the pants they need to get down to work. And what about somebody who's independent, who doesn't have a D or an S type? Why would I be with them? I'm just saying advice you would give for somebody who needs to, you know. I had to go there. You gave me the hope. I did. Should they make a list? Well, I've talked about the lists. But part of the problem is sometimes people who are really independent are often clueless. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. any need for work at all. People who are self-appointed, self-titled, self-deified, self-whatever, you know, and God knows we've got them in this community, are loath to believe that there's anything they need to do to improve the situation. And very often, and let me take a pot shot at those of us who are on the top side, very often they adopt the top side because it looks like they don't have to do any work. It's an excuse for having somebody else serve them, feed them, do for them. We're running out of time. Oh, I'm sorry. It's my fault. I shouldn't have asked that last question. Okay, I'm done. No, I'm sorry. I have to cut you off because we're out of time. Okay. Thank you, Ms. Diana, for coming on. We love it. We could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. We're Intellectual Kink. We are. I'm Insidious Muse. I'm Service Slut. And we're everywhere. Everywhere. And the show is Kink-Electual. And please download us on iTunes and review us, review us, review us, review us, until you turn blue in the face. And share us. We think it's a fantastic show. Yeah. We love it when we have fantastic guests that can come on. Thank you. And share their insight. Thank you. Which is always nice because we don't consider ourselves such dramatic experts. We like to have people come on that are experts. And we have... A lot of fucking people coming up. A lot of fucking people. Sanctuary is coming next week. So a lot of people. That is going to be a lot of people. Have a good one. Bye.