Interview with Dr. Hattie Johnson on domestic violence and education

Testing. One, two, three. Okay, welcome to the Coomberland Report. I'm here in my hometown of Green Mill, Mississippi, getting ready to do an interview with my sister, Dr. Hattie Johnson. Yes. So, Hattie, welcome to the Coomberland Report. Thank you. Yeah. First thing I want to ask you about, I know you're a doctor. You got your Ph.D., et cetera, like that. Can you tell us a little about your educational background, your undergrad, and then where you got your master's, your Ph.D., and the subject matter, dissertation? Okay. Undergrad, Tougaloo College, bachelor's in psychology. Graduated 1973, May 1973. Master's of education degree in counseling. Okay. And guidance from Delta State University in June of 1979. It's been a while. And actually, I'm a dual Ph.D., Ph.D. in educational psychology and also in counseling psychology, University of Mississippi, August of 1986. What other information did you ask? Well. What was your dissertation about? My dissertation was in the area of domestic violence, why battered women stay. Mm-hmm. And I was interested in that area, drawn to it for personal reasons as a formerly battered woman myself. Mm-hmm. I developed the first safe house network here in the Mississippi Delta. And I also assisted in developing the first battered woman shelter. And very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very this is not something I do day to day anymore. And it's been a long time since I've actually thought about it. But it's an area that I still, you know, give much attention to. It's just more or less second nature now. Let me ask you this. You were talking about the subject matter of your dissertation is battered women's domestic violence, why they stay. Did you reach any conclusion or anything close to a definite conclusion in terms of why battered women stay in situations of violence like that? Well, actually, what I learned was that there is no classic battered woman. And just as the woman stays in the dysfunctional relationship, it's also very important. To realize, try to determine why the batterer stays. Most of the attention is focused on the woman staying and being beat or battered or abused. But the man also stays to batter and abuse. So there was no one particular reason given. It's more or less on an individual basis. What I can say is that. It is a very slow, very insidious process. It is not as if the batterer who can be male or female shows up to say, I'm going to beat you in three weeks or six months. They come in with their on their best behavior and very slowly break the other individual down, chipping away at their self-esteem, their self-image in order to. Gain control. It's it is a form of violence, whether it's verbal or physical or. Mental, emotional. It's about power and control. So both parties are involved in the process. And that was primarily what I learned. OK, do you find any major difference in these kind of nuclear family situations? Where if just say you got a relationship where it's just the male and female, no children as opposed to relationships where children is involved in any dynamics, differences come about among there? Well, there will have to be differences based on the family structure. But it has nothing to do really with economics or educational background or status. Of any kind. When I was actually practicing traditional psychology back some many years ago, most of my clients were the wives of doctors, lawyers and judges. So it's not about being poor or not having other options in many instances that can bind a person in the situation. But. It's about much more than that. And then if you have children involved, then, of course, another layer and another dynamic would be added. The age of the children might also play a significant role. It's different because domestic violence is is not just between legal spouses. It's in any situation. It can be parent to child. It can be husband to wife. It can be child to parent. It literally runs the continuum. So, for example, if we have a single mother who gets involved with someone, then that person comes in and brings violence into that situation. And that mother is the parent of, say, a fourth. Second. Second. 14, 15 year old son, a male child, and you bring in another male and all of a sudden that son is expected to adhere to the rules and regulations that this new person is coming in with. If they're coming in to take over as opposed to come in and build a positive relationship, then you're likely to have some conflict there. Am I being clear? There's just no one answer. It would depend on a case by case basis. Okay. But the one thing that is constant in all of these dynamics is the element of control. One-ups and shit. Yeah. Power and control. Power and control. Okay. Excellent. Also, in family situation, how important is the element of birth orders? In the family, in terms of what order, you know, where's the first child, second child, third child, last child? Do that play any dynamics in that also? Well, it would, again, it would be on a family by family basis. But just with a very broad brush, I would say not specifically. There may be some correlation. But none that you could just say, well, all middle children are likely to be abused. Okay. Or all firstborns are likely to be abused. It's not like that. Okay. There are going to be some, again, primarily it's social. And as much as it's a learned behavior. You don't really go into the nursery of a hospital where newborn babies are and have one baby beating up the other one. So. It's a, you get what I mean? It's a process that's learned. And as such, it can be unlearned. Yeah. But it's more learned behavior. Okay. Wonderful. Okay. The next subject matter that I would like to deal with is, you know, the whole educational concept. Starting here, I would like to get your opinion in relationship to the education system in Greenville and then the state of Mississippi. And then education in general in the United States of America. Starting off with here in Greenville, what do you think about the state of the education system here? Well, to put it frankly, the education system in Greenville and the state of Mississippi and the nation as well is broken. The public education system. Mm hmm. And in Greenville, it is much by design. Mm hmm. There's a mindset about our children that we are just one step beyond the plantation and that most of us cannot learn. It's a this is the mindset. This is anything but the truth. I'm a product of this education system, the educational system that I came through. Mm hmm. Is not the educational system of today. Mm hmm. In many instances, most of the people teaching and I can take the heat. Mm hmm. Okay. Most of the and I say that to preface what I'm about to say. Mm hmm. Because most of the people that are teaching in our local school district here, Greenville, Washington County, Mississippi Delta and so on. They're teaching because they don't have any other choice. Mm hmm. Because there's so many limited job opportunities. Mm hmm. And the way the education system is set up is that when children come in now kindergarten and first grade, we have three times the elementary schools that we do junior high and high schools. Mm hmm. Because it's set up such that by the time the student is seventh grade, they've been forced out of the system. Mm hmm. And so. Mm hmm. And seventh grade students come in and the discipline rather than placing a student with behavior problems or educational difficulties into an alternative educational environment, which is what the law mandates. Mm hmm. These students are repeatedly taken out of the educational environment for sent to the office. Mm hmm. And so, you know, we have a lot of these students that are suspended or expelled. Mm hmm. You know, for the rest of the year for minor infractions like going to sharpen a pencil without permission or looking at the teacher the wrong way or maybe even speaking back and never ever our cultural differences addressed. Mm hmm. We really don't talk about culture anymore. Mm hmm. So, the law in Mississippi, you know, has been a little bit more of a little bit more of a Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. held back. If you're 15 and in the seventh grade, then it's much better to be the class clown than the class dummy. So you may actually disrupt, be disrupted. It does not speak to ability. It speaks to opportunity. And most of our teachers have not been adequately trained and they are not adequately prepared. And many of them don't even like children. They certainly don't like our children. And this is not a racial issue. More of a class. It's a class issue. I'm glad you brought that up because a couple of things that we've been discussing and been thinking about in the past is what I call this whole brain drain thing. In the early 20s, Carter G. Woodson wrote an excellent book called The Missing. The Missing is a book about the mis-education of the Negro in which he really laid out that concept. And in a nutshell, what he was talking about is brain drain, especially in relationship to like the 114 historically black schools that they got. And in this area would be like Jackson State, Alcorn, Tukaloo, et cetera, like that. Some of the schools in this area and the individual, the students who really, really excelled, the A students, the B students, the real gifted students, when they graduate, opportunities that open up outside of the area, the majority of them take advantage of that and move out, leaving the C students and those on down, the average ones, who usually seem to become the teachers and stuff in these particular areas. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. and all like that. And so what do you think can be done to turn that around to get some of these gifted individuals, these A students, you know, get them the incentive to come back, you know, and serve, you know, in their hometown, the area that produced them? There's an African proverb back to tradition is the first step forward. Integration, forced integration, not desegregation. Forced integration is what has literally been shoved down our throats. And we are in, we're entering the fourth generation of forced integration. And let me explain the difference. And before I move on to that, let me just simply say, you mentioned historically black colleges. There's a real push right now in the state of Mississippi by the governor, the outgoing governor of the state of Mississippi as one of his last functions in his role as governor of the state to merge together. The Haley Barber. Yes, Haley Barber. To merge together Jackson State, Mississippi Valley, Valley State, and Alcorn. And to just put them all under one umbrella. And to do that would destroy the very legacy that you just referenced. So I just wanted to throw that in. Now, my class, my high school class was the last graduating class from Coleman High School in 1970. And after that, the next year, we had forced integration. Now, this was based on Brown versus the Board of Education. In 1954, it took until 1970 to finally force the merger of the public education system in Mississippi. And what actually happened was the very opinionary, the very epitome of white flight. We had all of the majority white schools. Then over that summer, they built academies and private schools. And so when school began in August of 1970, we had a 98, 99% black school district, public school district. Hmm. Um, but the 53% of the teachers were still European. But the student population was 98% black or African American. So that the safe, nurturing, encouraging environment that we came out of was literally gone with the, with the signature of, of a pen on a piece of paper. Mm-hmm. And it has been systematically deteriorated ever since. Mm-hmm. When we came through, uh, we had teachers like Ms. Crawford. Yes. Ms. Haynes. Yeah. You get what I'm saying. Yeah. Ms. Jones. Right. Right. We don't have that, that does not exist anymore. Mm-hmm. We have people who have set out to destroy, to take our children. Mm-hmm. To discourage our children. People like Newt Gingrich, who is, who would get up on a television and publicly state that our children should be taken out of an education environment to clean toilets and mop floors. Yeah. Well, he, I lived in Georgia for, in, in the Atlanta metro area for a lot, a lot of years. Mm-hmm. And Newt Gingrich was the, uh, Senator from Georgia. Mm-hmm. And, uh, uh, Congressman from Georgia. Mm-hmm. And, uh, at that time, I, I'm very familiar with, with his mindset. Mm-hmm. Okay. Interesting. And, and there's really no difference in him than, than the White Citizens Council. Yeah. Uh, you know, Georgia. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, without a doubt. So, that's the mindset. Mm-hmm. So, we have, uh, Governor Barber, a governor of the state of Mississippi. Mm-hmm. Setting out in the 21st century to destroy black colleges. Yeah. You know, our higher education institutions. And the legacy. And we have, right, the legacy is there. Mm-hmm. So, we have, we, back to tradition as the first step forward. Mm-hmm. We're not better off. Mm-hmm. We're way worse off. Mm-hmm. Because our goal now is to assimilate. Mm-hmm. And there's no room for us in assimilation. Mm-hmm. A lot of us are no more than happy slaves. We think that if we can make enough money to qualify to get in enough debt, because we can't, most of us cannot afford to buy things outright. Mm-hmm. Then we have succeeded when just the opposite is true. Mm-hmm. Just the opposite is true. Mm-hmm. So. Beautiful. You get what I'm, am I being clear? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, excellent, excellent point. So, there's an erosion of culture. Mm-hmm. And let, just let me, um, uh, uh, reference this. Also, what you mentioned earlier, when they, when they, when they, when they, when they say, you know, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're a very sociable male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male male this a process that was statewide, that was reflected in the whole, that happened in the whole state of Mississippi? Mississippi, it's a national... Actually, what happened was that the federal government took over receivership of many school districts in many southern states because they refused to integrate. You do remember the and that was at many levels. That was in secondary, elementary and secondary education as well as higher education. You remember James Meredith at Ole Miss. You remember George Wallace standing in the door. So this was the tone of the southern part of the nation at that time. And what actually did happen in Greenville over the summer, you know, Coleman High School was considered a school of champions. And we had a heritage that was very rich and over many, many decades. And what happened was that persons came in and destroyed that legacy. Literally. Took trophies out of cases and awards off walls and threw them in dumpsters and destroyed them to destroy them. So they destroyed our heritage and our legacy in order to force the legacy of Greenville High School, the European school, as the true history. But that's not the. So many of the students coming along after that, we did salvage some things, but most was destroyed. So that many of the students that came after that and even to this point now don't really know the true history. Don't don't have it. And that was the history of Greenville High School. So that's what happened. That was the same thing for whether it was in Ruleville or Belzoni or Scott. You get what I'm saying? In Alabama, Georgia. There was a very systematic approach to destroying the positive history. Good, good. That's excellent. OK, now what I move on is also get some personal reflection because the educational system in these big cities, Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago is in terrible shape. I mean, they probably in worse shape than the southern states and stuff like that. And when I say terrible shape, I'm being a little easy on them. I'm familiar. Yeah. Now, what I would like to know, because you as a senior parent, you've been able to, your three children, to put them through college to get an education and not only to get an education, but to turn around and to contribute, you know, teaching, et cetera, and all of that, which is excellent. And you to be commended for that. What I would like to know for so many parents out here down south and all over the nation who's getting ready to send their children to college, especially single heirs of the household, what advice would you give them? What you give them that would better equip them for their children to have a chance of succeeding in terms of getting an education? Some of the elements there. Okay. First of all, it starts before, well before the college planning stage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, the key is expectation. Mm-hmm. There was always an expectation for us growing up with mom and dad that we would go to school, get our lesson, behave properly, and we did that. Mm-hmm. And in large part, most of us have beyond high school. Okay. So, my children were raised with the same expectation. And in addition, that you will not only have one degree, you will have at least one graduate degree. Mm-hmm. The reason being, when we were coming through high school, you could do a lot more with a high school diploma than you could do now when my children were coming along. So, a bachelor's degree at that time was pretty much equivalent to the value of a high school diploma when we were coming through. Mm-hmm. Do you agree with that? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, the expectation was there. And the other thing too was a definite line between parent and child. Mm-hmm. We really have a problem in our communities. We pretty much adopted, you know, adopted the principles that Dr. Spock put out. And that does not work for our children. It just does not work for our children. Because, you know, being friends with your child and running with your child and compromising with your child, and, you know, that's a setup for failure for our children. Because the things that work for European children doesn't work for our children, and it's not going to work for our children. Because when your child goes into the room, there is already a negative mindset about our children. Mm-hmm. It's true. It is absolutely true. I have firsthand knowledge and knowing that you must do twice as well. You have to know twice as much. Mm-hmm. And the old saying is true in many instances. It is not what you know. It is who you know. And we don't have those avenues for us. Because there is still that tendency that when one gets here, up, that the tendency is to want to separate and remove ourselves from the ones who are still trying to come up. Mm-hmm. So you must let our... We must let our children know that we are different. Mm-hmm. And not less than, but different. And the expectations are different. Mm-hmm. And that you perform in a way that is comfortable and right for you. Mm-hmm. You abide by the rules because the rules have been set. And in order to achieve, you must meet that standard. Mm-hmm. But never let go of who you are. Mm-hmm. And if you do that, then you can not only achieve, but you can succeed. Mm-hmm. And that is something that has been lost. The success is not being allowed in the room or being accepted by the European counterpart. Mm-hmm. What I learned was that in many instances, the European counterpart could not understand... Mm-hmm. ...if you were not trying to achieve that. Mm-hmm. Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. And so, we really are quite messed up now. Mm-hmm. And it is the effect of integration. Mm-hmm. Let me qualify. If you're making a pitcher of Kool-Aid, and you've got a pitcher of water, a package of Kool-Aid, and a cup of sugar. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, if you move all of those around on the table, any way you want to go, wherever you want to go, work where you want, live where you want, go to school where you want, then you're desegregated. Mm-hmm. You know, you're not apart and separate. But if you pour the sugar over in the water, and you pour the Kool-Aid over in the water, and stir it up, then that's integrated. Mm-hmm. We cannot become that. Mm-hmm. Because if you walk in the room, the first thing they notice is your complexion. Mm-hmm. Your color. And you can't change that. Okay? Then the next thing they notice is whether you're male or female. Mm-hmm. You can't change that. Then they might wonder why you're there. Mm-hmm. But if they walk in the room, then they are just there. They might notice whether you're male or female, that inherent white supremacist right to be is built in. Mm-hmm. Our children have lost that through forced integration. Mm-hmm. Great point. Great point. We never march for integration. Mm-hmm. We march for desegregation. Mm-hmm. That's right. That's the trick. Yeah. That's a great point. That's the trick. Great point. We've got integration. Yeah. A couple more little things. You mentioned some great points, because we're just about getting ready to wind down. Okay. What do you think about the influence of the internet in terms of the future of education, the impact of that? Is that going to make an impact? Harnessed in the right direction, I believe it to be a very powerful tool. Mm-hmm. And it can be used, I feel like a superhero now, it can be used for great, good, or evil. Yeah. Because that's the one thing about our children. I noticed this very early on with the internet. It's a pure language, and it's not open to interpretation. Mm-hmm. It is what it is. What it is. Yes, yes. And our children grasp that right off. Yeah. You know, they master that. But if there's not the right supervision, and if the internet or even television is allowed to parent or raise your child, then you're still going to get a negative outcome. Mm-hmm. But if the child is taught to manage it, Mm-hmm. and not to give up socialization, a lot of what we're running into now is that our children are socialized to objects rather than to people. They really don't have the people skills because they're not taught people skills. They're taught how to manage technology. Mm-hmm. So when you make a phone call and you get a person on the other end of the phone, and they don't know how to accommodate you Mm-hmm. in a customer service kind of situation, Mm-hmm. it's because they simply don't have the skill. Mm-hmm. They don't have people skills. Beautiful. Right. Beautiful. OK. Now finally, excellent point. Glad to get all this information down. Mm-hmm. What are your future plans, and what are you working on? OK. I'm finally at a point where I can do some of the things that I've been wanting to do for a lot of years. Mm-hmm. I've had a lot of responsibility, as you mentioned, raising my children, getting my children educated, grown out and on their own. And they are old, crusty people now. Mm-hmm. So I can do some of the things that I want to do and Research and all of that. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Yes. I'm in the process of authenticating our family's Choctaw status. Mm-hmm. And I'm spending Choctaw status. Choctaw status, Native American. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Little mama, well, Carrie Hawkins. Yeah. Little mama, our great grandmother. Yeah. Full blood Choctaw. Mm-hmm. Mothers, my mama, well, our mother's mother, James Mosby. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Choctaw. Mm-hmm. Jim Johnson. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Choctaw. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You, you know all of this. Yeah. So, and I, but I, I'm in the process of, of pulling the documentation, going to original source documents. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that we can verify. Mm-hmm. And I've been doing this now off and on, hit and miss. Mm-hmm. Uh, for about the last 15 years, but now that my grandchildren are coming along. Mm-hmm. I want to leave some clear documentation for them in such a fashion that if, if I don't complete it or, you know. Yeah. Then whoever it is can. Can complete it. Pick it up and move forward with it. So that's one project that I'm working on. Mm-hmm. And that's great too, because earlier today, just before I came over here, was talking to our brother, um, Chip, Robert Johnson. Mm-hmm. In Detroit. Mm-hmm. And his interest is the same thing. Mm-hmm. In terms of the Choctaw Nation. Mm-hmm. And the research that he's, uh, been doing on that level. Exactly. And a lot of names and stuff that he gave me about fairly certain chiefs and stuff, uh, that I'll be researching. Mm-hmm. Uh, that he just gave me that I wasn't familiar with. Uh, uh, but that, that, that's wonderful. That's, that's good. Any, uh, closing comments? Yeah. Well. Mm-hmm. Other projects? Yes. I have two other primary projects that I'm working on. Uh, I've been researching, um, a book that I'm near completion and ready to distribute on the psychosocial status of black families in the Mississippi Delta. Mm-hmm. And it's a longevity. Mm-hmm. It's a longitudinal study dating back to 1621. Mm-hmm. And it looks at the effect of integration. Mm-hmm. And black families, the plight of black families today. It actually explains why we are as we are. Mm-hmm. And why we behave as we do. Mm-hmm. Going all the way back to the slave period. 1621. Yeah. Right. Okay. Interesting. And the final one is my own autobiography. Mm-hmm. And as much as I've, uh, been blessed to be a pioneer in so many areas. Mm-hmm. I've actually had four careers. Mm-hmm. My first career is music. Mm-hmm. Voice. Ms. Jones and all of that. Yes. Uh. Yes. And then second career is psychology. Mm-hmm. Uh, senior staff psychologist at many major universities across the country. Uh, pioneer development of many programs and curriculum. Uh, programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs and programs I lost my thought. In terms of that project and the autobiography. Looking forward to it. Have you got a name for it yet? What are you going to call it? My autobiography? No, I really haven't named it. I don't know if it will just, it may actually just turn out to be something that I'm doing for family distribution or just for my immediate family. I don't really, I'm not big on pride. But I am big on history. And that is one of the things that kind of got away from us inside our family. Daddy, for example, Reverend J.J. Johnson, our father, was phenomenal in terms of his business acumen. He built churches and, I mean, founded and established churches. He was, he owned one of the first, if not the first, black-owned newspaper in the Mississippi Delta. The Friendly Mess. Right. So, those kind of things. Yeah. Okay. So, we're coming to the end anyway. Yeah, we're done. Yeah. Because I know you've got to get your, okay, it's just 11. Yeah, that's about it. So, thank you very much. Here with Dr. Hattie Johnson. Excellent information. And my sister, thank you very much. You're welcome. Right. And don't forget to mention I'm the baby. Yeah. In the family. But, great, great information. Thank you.