Rope bondage art, Japanese Kenbaku, and community outreach

hey you you person there over there over there hey hi mistress hey how's it going you know what it's going okay it's going okay it's kind yeah even though we're running late welcome to Intellectual King now I know why the volume was all the way down on this because it's effing loud I'm Insidious Muse and I'm Service Slut and we have guests dude those with knowledge that we do not possess we have people in the studio that have that kind of passion that everybody should have about shit right totally like it's really enviable it's contagious it is now don't think I'm going to run out with my rope and be like yes let's do all I mean you know I tied you up last week and I was like look and it was ugly and we did but it was cool it was fun it was fun it was fun it was fun and we were in the same room as people that totally knew their shit you were at a class and I saw you tie and it wasn't ugly at all oh my god it was so ugly but that's okay I don't care I totally watched you I took a picture because then there has to be progress at some point it'll be pretty I watched you it'll happen don't do that don't watch me I watched you later I'm watching you closely stop it at this moment so that's that's Andrew hey and he's been on the show before when we were when we were labeled as the love bite he was on the show before and we have actually his mentor on hello Demon Six Demon Six okay Demon Six and he's wow so he was shown us some books and I was like yay free porn watching free porn so first yeah right because you're limited I am limited on the porn look at so let's start with why we have these fantastic people on the show number one we don't know anything about rope love we're like we don't know anything about rope like it's rope there it is oh and a little bit but you know as much as anybody in the kink community kind of knows about rope on a very novice ancillary not really knowledgeable level well and I don't know about you but for me like I mean if somebody were to ask me what I know about rope it looks pretty it looks intimidating and ah scary I can name little scary sometimes that's about as far as I could go I love that I love that you guys have this regular podcast that I listen to and you talk about the very sort of intense very sort of personal things that you get involved with and the types of play that you engage in that a lot of people would be let's call it terrified of and and you're like and you're like rope is so scary and the funny thing is every time I actually use rope when it when it boils down to it it's incredibly simple and it's really simple when you're actually tying the rope the ties themselves are just a series of like twists or spins they're very simple it's like why was I nervous but there's like this it looks like Mount Everest when you think about rope you think about it and you're like and especially when we're getting to the Japanese rope bondage which is really what we're discussing tonight because you look at it and it's so ornate and so beautiful and of course you hear people debate you know hemp is better than rope is better than jute is better than you know whatever and so as a novice you're like oh well I gotta make sure that I I have the right rope and oh don't look at the tie it's ugly it's not pretty you can see my ends or whatever it is because that's this belief that all of a sudden Mount Everest is looking at you when it's bullshit who the hell cares but people care well no there is actually someone that you should care if they care shit it's her oh she doesn't care as long as there's rope on her skin she doesn't care but there's but there's gonna be better better and worse ways to apply those things and I mean I think regardless of what those who are watching you or those who see I mean the bulk of the time I do people don't see well and and here's the thing it's funny because when we did it that one day I was my concern my like could not get out of my head was don't be uncomfortable like try to like you know if something feels uncomfortable just fucking bear it because she's having fun and she's learning something new and you just gotta take it man just be a champ take one for the team wow that's bad well no no no but it didn't and it didn't get to that I didn't feel like oh my god this sucks no I'm like wow there's nothing there's nothing like positive reinforcement of your talents isn't there no oh my god stop please it was fun I have all that rope I'll never use again now thanks Nancy no stop it stop but I think there's a bigger issue to the entire subject that you're bringing up here and you brought it kind of up in the competitive kink episode that you had which I listened to very very closely I've been actually kind of turned on and this is funny that I'll break out with Greek literature as opposed to Japanese bondage love it there's some dialogues by Plato in particular there's a dialogue by Plato called the Symposium and what the Symposium talks about is to paraphrase a very diverse subject into one particular subject and that's the particular thing that caught my interest it paraphrases back into immortality and what immortality basically being is you can't actually have actual immortality but you can have immortality either through kids either through doing something great like Achilles everyone pretty much knows even in the modern day who Achilles was because of the movie Troy and it was brought forward well in the Achilles tendon but whatever yeah or you were someone who did something great like develop a body of laws or something in science like Einstein and those forms of immortality are available to you one of the things that concerns me that I see happening in Japanese rope and sometimes in the scene in general again I don't want to specifically focus on this people worry about that element being unconscious in their system that they're worried about the immortality of being well thought of doing something great and it's kind of an underlying poison if you're not you're not aware of it it's kind of like the thing you're doing and you're unconscious of it it's kind of this whole psychological debate that Freud got into and basically you start being motivated to do things that aren't necessarily good for you to do or you worry about looking right and it paralyzes you and once you finally free yourself of that and say you know what I'm just going to do what I'm doing I'm not worried about this underlying energy of trying to be something more right as opposed to focusing on your perception of self on that which you display to others the mask that you've chosen which is a sociological perspective it's a sociological theory then you can really get down to brass tacks and focus on who and what you are and to me then you can ascend to actually being more exactly exactly one of the things that happened that was very interesting because we went to Chicago and this was you guys were talking about this before we went to Chicago Shibari Con Shibari Con Yarp one of the more interesting things that happened was a gentleman by the name of Wicked Dave who's from England did a class on something called Ichinawa now if you listen on FetLife do you mean Ipanawa? yeah yeah here we go again a girl from Ipanema? a girl from Ipanada Ipanada oh my god Ipanadas would be so delicious right now that sounds awesome let's go around the corner but basically getting into the issue of what Ichinawa was it's a it's basically focusing on the person that you're tying and focusing on tying them no particular technique no particular discussing like the rope goes this way or that way just tie the person one of the things that happens here in the instruction is you tie standing up and you very much focus on the direction and path the rope goes when all of a sudden you're missing that partner's face up there and you're not looking at what your partner's reaction is how your rope's affecting that person I would put the best technique in the world person up against someone who maybe isn't as talented but if they're working on the same model and that person who isn't as talented knows that model and cares about that model and is connected they can do anything as well as the grand expert who doesn't care have a care in the world about what happens with that person that's one of the things that I think is important to be able to do and that's one of the things we really focus on in our school here that we have well not a school but our group of friends let's say it's a school I like this plan we tend to focus more on how are you going to connect to your model with the tying that you're doing and how is it going to affect him or her as opposed to any particular technique being highlighted over another I feel it's a stronger way to go I feel that in the end you'll be a better tire but again everyone has different opinions there are schools in Japan that are very very formal there's one in particular I can think of called Baku Yukai by a gentleman named Amir Takumi whose videos we obtained recently I'm a huge Baku Yukai fan by the way but his school is very very formal the technique is similar to what Akechi Denki would be he's a follower of Akechi Denki's very very geometric very very clean lines these are all names that we don't understand no but they're being explained to us and I am taking notes it's fine Japanese Japanese Japanese what? Japanese Japanese Japanese but basically he's kind of a hero of the current set of Japanese people that I'm talking to in Japan and basically his lines are incredibly clean and incredibly geometric unfortunately because the video is not working we can't show the book that we brought of his work but I took pictures and we'll be posting them later yes we can do vines yup I can do a vine yeah so so it's very very clean work it's very very straight work but the catch with Baku Yukai is is you actually get a certificate when you learn a particular tie you get a card and they're multicolored cards I like that and Amir Takumi gives them to you it's like when we get badges in Zon Scouts I like that I want one so bad so when I go and meet somebody and they're like oh you tie rope I can be like can you claim it I can be like yeah and they'll be like oh what do you know how to tie and I'll be like here are all of my cards here are all of my cards they're besides my they tell you what I am officially approved to tie my degrees now if you would like to live dangerously there are ties that I'm not officially approved to tie that does sound kind of exciting that I can tie it's so much better when you don't have permission isn't it the taboo like we were discussing out there about the the all of these fantastic books that Demon Six had brought in they're all from Japan and some of them are really really old art and it's depicting a lot of the taba- the taba- tabemits bleh bleh I'm tired can I use that one the taboo concepts within Japan and even to the point of you were saying tattooed people are shunned shunned in some way I mean um the takizumi which is the Japanese tattoo um is a very intricate art that came out of tattooing criminals um the yakuza um today which is kind of interesting you can walk into the offices of the yakuza in Japan and um they wear these tattoos and they pretty much hide them in normal society when they're walking around you know they're tough guys walking around but they don't actively show them um there are places in Japan where a spa or a pool or a common bath tattoos are not allowed these terrify people even in 2013 today yeah wow it's a hysterical story um a few years ago one of my girlfriends went over to Japan with some friends of hers and she has two very beautiful tattoos on her calves one of a dragon one of a phoenix and they were standing in the airport and this guy walks up to them and he's just this guy and he sort of taps her on her shoulders and he's like um I very much liked your tattoos and would very much like to meet you and she's like okay so she walks over to this guy and he was in the yakuza and he was like I very much like your tattoos and he sent his little guys to go get them presents because it's traditional that you give someone a present when you meet them and they got little presents and they got like a little card from him and he said if you wanna see Japan or if you wanna be taken on a tour I'm happy to do that to you just because she was you know ostensibly walking around with tattoos displayed showed that she had bravado that she was no fear it showed that she was maybe a little bit of a bad girl bad girl naughty naughty you know nothing but sluts and whores have tattoos everybody knows that awesome very much a thing in Japan about punishing the bad woman that is a big theme in a lot of their art historically I suppose you could look at that through a lot of not just Japanese culture but you know absolutely it's it's it's I find the more that people eroticize Japan the less I get interested in that conversation a lot of the things that they talk about are more things in common with us than their opposite well they wanna find common ground I mean I can understand that why alienate it well it's not even but it's not even an issue of necessarily finding common ground it's the fact that there is common ground that exists but in the West we tend to romanticize the places that were different not the places that were the same oh yeah that's what's different so you put all of this effort and in view in dream and fantasy life into the places that you diverge and at some point because there has traditionally been such a little communication back and forth that grows into a thing that has a life of its own that isn't necessarily really representative of what's going on there yeah it's the reputation very much so for good or bad you know having I mean I've lived internationally in several different countries and so you know each country has its own reputation for good or bad and I find that sometimes I'm defending it or whatever sure and you end up finding out that no in a lot of instances people are just people and there will be awesome people in any one country and there will be terrible shit bags in any one country yes this is true that's kind of the way it goes this is nice we can say that type of I can say shit bag you can say vulgarity all you like I can say dicks a bunch of fucking dicks we can say hairy taint a bunch of cocks have we devolved to this a bunch of fucking cack knockers we started with play-do and we're here on this I'm just saying I suppose that highlights the diversity absolutely back to the topic at hand sorry I'm sorry I feel like we haven't even scratched the surface no I don't think we have either what really struck me though is the connectivity and I think that's one thing that I I mean when I think about all kinds of plays within you know our kinky world I mean Rope is definitely something where I think it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it it's fun to play it where just to me, it's very synonymous with energy exchange. I mean, it's something that you sort of bring, the goal should be to bring you together, not to push you apart. And I think that there's an interesting trend to want to, historically, to want to use rope in the same way that you would use some sort of Westerner strength. Like I'm going to restrain you as a way to get to play. Like I will cuff you up and there's not really, if I was cuffing someone, there isn't really a whole lot of erotic back and forth for I'm gonna put this cuff on you. It's not gonna be necessarily, specifically arousing the process of putting the cuff on. The cuff itself may be arousing because you may enjoy the feel of the leather or whatever else. But the act of putting it on isn't necessarily, something that's erotic. And I think that that's the danger that people will slip into is using rope in the same way that you would do that where the application is merely a means to an end to get to other forms of play. And that stuff's fantastic. And if you want to get to that other play and that other play is really what gets you going, that's great as well. But why not have all of it? I mean, coming from a switch. Greedy. Yeah, greedy. We're totally greedy. If you can enjoy the activity, the act of putting the rope on and enjoy the act of the play that goes on afterwards and enjoy the act of taking the rope off when you're done and make all of that part of the interaction between you and the person that you're playing with or the person who's your bottom, why not take that time to do that thing? Well, and I think what it boils down to is in all things in BDSM, it's about awareness and education. And if you have not been exposed to that being a use of rope as opposed to, you said the very Western idea that it's just a restraint, a way to tie a horse to a post. And it just is a means to an end as opposed to being part of the journey in and of itself. If you're not exposed to that concept and you haven't realized that, hey, this can happen, then you're just going to fluff it over. It's like, whatever, it doesn't mean anything. So I think that exposing people to that idea that they can use that as a type play all by itself with that energy where it's not just you're trying to make this pretty tie, where you're focusing on, ah, it's so ugly or so awesome or whatever, because, you know, it'd be awesome, right? Well, one of the things you have to realize about Japanese bondage is its origins getting down to what we think of Kenbaku. I'm not talking about Hojujutsu, which is a martial form of restraining. Kenbaku basically comes from art. Its bones, its DNA are in art. When you, when you look at ties throughout, let's say pre-20th century, for lack of a better term, most of those ties are in idealism in art that show up. Most of the Yoshitoshi work, most of the work that's out there that you can find still has an idealized form of bondage on the person. You go forward to Idosei, whose work I was happy to share with you earlier, you know, was basically working off of that idea. He was looking at these very idealized ideas and started to develop his practice of SM style tying. He did talk to martial artists. He did talk to people who were doing Hojujutsu, but it wasn't the full basis of what he was trying to do. He was trying to get a reaction. As you can see very clearly in the art that he did, facial expression, things that were going on there were what he was focused on. The disheveled hair of the beautiful, you know, woman in the kimono and the hair being disheveled. He was very much onto those aesthetics. Being in the snow. Yes, being in the snow, things of that nature. One of his most famous pictures was tying up his pregnant wife to get a depiction of the Yoshitoshi work called The Lonely House of the Dachi Mor. So a lot of this comes from, an artist idea of visual. But then it also runs another knife's edge. It runs the knife's edge of being art and SM. So we're talking about communication with SM. We're talking about a form of either communicating by the tie to other people or communicating with the tie to the person we're tying. So it's a form of communication that exists that, I can't find any reference somewhere else that I could say, this is something that's similar. And this is where I get kind of boggled with trying to explain Kimbaku to other people. Basically what you're doing is you're doing a visual art form, a tactile art form that has a number of different aspects. And by doing that, that's what takes so long for people. And I think this is part of the intimidation factor is to be able to get people to understand that you're not just trying to do a visual art form, but you're trying to get those two things in balance. To have the girl with the turned on, jello face that we all like to get in SM, but to also have this absolutely beautiful aesthetic on what that woman looks like being tied and that visual communication also being given to people. So it's a knife's edge that you have to run in doing this art. And the problem is, it's incredibly dangerous. Because, Unlike other forms of SM, we've actually had some deaths, one in Italy in the past few years. There are a number of things that we do that would probably drive Jay Weisman crazy. If you had a safety shears though, you'd be okay. Yes, but I mean, because it's also an art form and it's a communication form, there are risks that we take in Kenbaku either because we think it's going to look really cool or we think that it's going to do things that are going to get to that immortality line that I hit to, that doing a great thing. And it's a danger in our community that I continually worry about. And a number of people who are in the know, who are people who have knowledge greater than I, stay out of the community for those reasons. Because they realize that while we can show these fantastic things, we also run the risk of getting someone killed. And I think it's doubly dangerous because it's deceptively safe looking. Because rope itself is such a common thing, a fairly common thing, something that you can obtain very easily, something that's fairly inexpensive, something that's fairly akin to something we see every day. There are cords that are coming off of our microphones. Now there are cords that are coming off our headsets. Now we're sitting in front of a thing that has a whole bunch of things that are plugged in that in some way resemble the same type of cord that you would use to tie someone. It is deceptively mundane and in its simplicity and in its ubiquity, there's a sense of safety that doesn't exist. A single tail is something that you don't see every day. A single tail is something that makes... Well... That makes a very loud noise. Yes. A single tail is in a lot of ways something that belies its danger in the nature of how it's made, what it does, and how it sounds. Well, it's a primal terror weapon. It's designed to make a primal response. Yeah, and rope is not that. And rope, and especially here, a little bit differently in Japan because of sort of the shame that's associated with it because people were arrested with rope. Historically, less so here. It becomes much more of a mundane thing and in that mundane nature, people presume safety. Right, unless it's made into a noose and then automatically there's... Sure. But otherwise, I mean, it doesn't have to be a noose shape in order to be equally as dangerous. Yep, right. And here's the thing where this is a 1% 99% issue. The people who can speak and read Japanese have the ability to read. The 70 years of discussion that's gone on in Japan. From the Catan Clubs of the 1950s, which is a pulp magazine that came out, to SM King, to a number of the different publications that happened in Japan. There was a lot of discussion of these issues that were active in these magazines. And here in America and in the English-speaking world, we do not have that advantage. There's an interesting situation going on here in Los Angeles right now. There was a Japanese reader living here in LA that we had no idea was here. She was literally living under our nose for the past 12 years. Wow. But even she has old SM magazines that were discussing these issues. She was reading this stuff going, oh, of course, I don't do that. Yeah, she grew up like she was. When she was a kid, she was a kid. Was she like 18? Yeah. She was 18. Among other people, she met a catchy dinky before he died. She did some time with him. She worked as a professional mistress in Osaka. Still does. She's back there right now. Yeah, she goes back once a year to see her clients and does this amazing, the thing that I think is awesome, she works with a bunch of clients who are transvestites. So she dresses them as women and ties them in sort of these traditional, like all of the pictures that you've seen, sort of these traditional, accepted female poses of them bound as the shamed woman. And it's so powerful. It's really nice. It's a guy who wants to be in that position and wants to feel that juxtaposition of power. And then she takes pictures of them and that's what they want. They want that picture of them in that pose. That's hot. Wow. Well, it's hot. It's beautiful. It's powerful. Yeah. And if you think of all the cultural references, and what that means in their mind within the context of the culture that's just beyond the act that's going on, there are a lot of levels being played with there. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of humiliation. There's a lot. I mean, it's really, yeah. And to have a woman doing it to you on top of that. Precisely. Yeah, but that's the other thing that's kind of interesting. There are a number of interesting women tying in Japan, whereas here for a while, it's, changing now. And there was a couple people who were out here this past weekend. One of them, Amy Morgan from DC, who's a fantastic rigger. Hi, Amy. Working with us and we were having a lot of fun. But there's a lot of great women riggers out there now. Whereas before that wasn't so looked up upon. But I thought it was, personally, I thought it was a nice natural progression of putting the right amount of energy into people. One of the things that I have as a philosophy of tying is put as much energy into that person as you can and make it as much positive energy as you can, because it's going to come back some way. Mm-hmm. Most of the time I've seen in the people that I've been involved with, with the women, with exception of two of all the women I've encountered in the groups that I've been part of, they tie. Wow. And I think that's just a natural response of putting the right amount of energy into that person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or putting in the right amount of love and energy into somebody when you're playing with them. Or putting in the right amount of love and energy into somebody when you're playing with them. Or putting in the right amount of love and energy into somebody when you're playing with them. And they'll go from a place that's, it's happened multiple times. They'll go from a place where they've traditionally been a bottom and they've only been a bottom to where after a year or so, they start picking up rope and they're like, I want to do this thing. This is the thing I want to do. It's empowering. Yeah. And it's not just that, it's, they make interesting students because they already know how it feels. So they've got not only the pattern in their head ahead of time, but they know what they like and they know how they would, it's interesting because I think that they start off tying the people that they're tying the way they would want to be tied. Yeah. I think that, I mean, if you look at like the traditional like leather hierarchy, you start off as a slave and having that progression makes you a better master, that kind of concept. Absolutely. I was into leather before I got into this, only because I did not know this was available to me. That was the only thing you knew. Well, I was actually told, I go back to 19th century. I was 19 to 1995 and I was told at that time by a fantastic mentor. I had a woman mentor and she literally creamed me every day and not so much as a bottom, but as a person. She basically broke a lot of the machismo type things. A lot of the, I'm a man, I know what I'm doing kind of stuff. That was the first thing she went after like a lightning rod and just kicked my ass emotionally every day. So I think it made me a better leather person. But it was fun. But I think in general, I think women do a fantastic job in the leather and BDSM world. I know right now in Japan, there's a woman that most people, what I want to get in the lips of a number of people is a woman named Ashka, who is a rock star down in the Osaka, Kyoto area, who's up and coming here. Hopefully, I can get some interviews going with her for the FetLife groups. But, I mean, there are some fantastic women out there. And that's the one thing I definitely wanted to convey in this podcast today is if you're a woman out there and you want to tie, get out there and tie, please. Yeah. Do you think it's, I mean, just because the Western world is behind in this Japanese rope phenomenon? No. No? No, I don't think that, I don't know that we're, yeah. Misogyny is universal. No, it is. I just wrote a post about that. In fact, it's... It's... Culturally, that might be one of the differences we have with them. I know that when we had a friend of ours from Japan out here, we were treating her the way you would treat any woman here. You would open the doors for her and that. And that was freaking her out. I was like, I'm not used to this. Why are you so nice? Stop it. What do you want? Yes. You keep opening the door for me. It's like I'm people. What are you doing? Not a Sherpa? Oh, no. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. And I do have to say that the one thing that I don't know that Demon Six carried forth from his leather roots is, man, that guy's a pushover for me. I am so spoiled. I so do not get it that bad from him. That's nice. Because he knows what it feels like, right? I do. Well, also, I've had six years of apprenticeship under one of the, probably one of the best teachers here in the West. Gentleman by the name of Master K. I can't say enough positive things about him. Him and I have a philosophical difference on how we go about doing this art now. But probably one of the best mentors I could probably have as far as learning the ABCs of this art and learning with almost an encyclopedic knowledge of this art. I could not have got to where I'm at without him. I also could not have got to where I am. Without my partner, Fabiola. Another person who, between her and Master K, the discussions and the defenses of different positions was like listening to a dissertation in this art. So, I mean, there's a lot of fantastic people here in Los Angeles that are in the shadows. Part of it's in the shadows because that's their life and there's things in their life that they can't come out. And be more involved in the community, which is unfortunate. But as a Pacific Rim power in this art, this city is far more advanced than we realize. There are a lot of very talented people. There's Zetsu. There's Dancer. There are a number of other people, Crocoduck, who are learning under Master K right now. I think Zetsu's even learning from Yukimura. I think he's... Which is a gentleman in Tokyo. Who's all about connection. So, there's some fantastic knowledge here. But unfortunately, it never seems to leave Los Angeles. It's one of the reasons we started Rope Bite here. To basically allow people to be more... To participate more in this art. I really do feel right now we have a bit of a 99% issue. There's 1% that has the knowledge. That's not a fair thing to say. That have a great deal of knowledge. And they're either unable or unwilling to share it at the current moment. For a number of different reasons. This isn't an evil thing. I'm not making it out to be that. But I would really love to see this art breakthrough in the West. Because I think for a number of things that are being talked about. Example I got back to. We kind of diverged away from this. But at Shibari Con in Chicago, the Japanese showed up for the first time. And it was awesome. Wow. Oh my gosh. No, no. You don't even know. I don't know. There was one of the rigors who came as a lady named Saki Kamiju. Saki is a rock star in Japan. And not like a rock star like she's awesome and she ties really great. So she's a quote unquote rock star. This woman plays concerts while suspending girls on stage. Dude, that's cool. Because she's in a rock band. And is a rock star. That is a thing that person does. That isn't an anime show really. No, there are pictures of her like standing there. Mic on one side of her. Girl suspended. Her like doing her thing. That's freaking cool. On stage. That's awesome. And she has some of the fastest hands I have ever seen of someone. Like just so fast. And took classes with her. She was so genuine. She didn't speak a ton of English. But the little bit that she did. The. The levity that she had. The ability to even make jokes with the limited amount of English that she had was. It was hilarious because she would catch you off guard and it would be really delightful. That's nice. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. And there were a number of instructors that were doing a lot of good technique from Japan. There was Mark Deviate from Australia who was teaching a number of different techniques. You had a gentleman by the name of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that you must learn this first. Simply because the way that we teach here isn't always conducive to that. It isn't always conducive to, there was a comment you made in a previous interview with Andrew that basically was, you saw people tying, but the model was terribly bored. Oh, yeah. Which is a common thing you hear. Ichi Nawa is the cure. Yeah, this is- We have a prescription, we can fix this. Yeah, and it's the philosophy that he sort of forwards when he begins the class is that the way we most learn how to tie is by learning the tie pattern. The first thing we do is learn how to tie pattern. It's what's taught to us. And then we tie a pattern. Then we learn a new pattern. Then we learn a new pattern. The metaphor that he, or simile that he used, difference between simile and pattern. Yeah, there's a difference. Good job. Was that learning the tie by learning, pattern was like learning to drive by reading a map. Sure, it'll tell you how to get where you're going, but it gives you no direction on how to operate the vehicle that you need to get to that place. And really the point of the class was in and around being observant for the applicant. And it was literally just apply without pattern. Apply this rope to this person without pattern. Pay attention to how changes in tension, pressure, and speed change. And then change their reaction to it. Use that to equate what they like. Use that to apply towards pattern. So, because you keep using the word art, art, art, art, art, which is fantastic. But it's the, what a lot of people get stuck on is, you know, safety, safety, safety. And, but I have to know everything to do it, which what I'm hearing is it's almost like you're saying, here's the buckets of paint, use your fingers and just start making things. And then we'll come and start, showing you this is kind of, no? No, no, no. Here's a step that you need to add to this. Yeah. And here are the things that I would tell you about safety. If you tie someone's hands behind their back, don't leave them standing around. Falling is going to- Don't leave anybody when they're tied anyway. Jay Weisman did that last weekend. You would think that that would make sense. But I already knew that. But that's where the majority of injuries like this happen. Like really serious, you're going to have to go to the hospital. Yeah. Injuries happen there. That's sort of first and foremost. Don't do something like that. It's little things that you would think were common sense. Right. But there's a step that's being missed here. And that's knowing your partner. If you know your partner, you're connected with your partner, you're not necessarily going to do things that are going to push them over the edge. As with any play. Yeah. With any play that you do out there, if you're flogging, if you're using a blade, whatever it is that you're playing with, if you know that partner, know what they can take, know what they enjoy, you're not going to necessarily push over those limits that you need to push over. You know what you can do to get that reaction. Right. So this is the drawback to teaching pattern and technique as opposed to teaching connection first. Pattern and technique tell you this looks really cool. This is great. This will fit, right? This will work. And you get excited about this and you tie this thing. Oh, I didn't know this before. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. Or maybe this one. we talk about it, S to M, a lot of the point of what we're trying to do with this is be outlaws. I'm dead serious. If you become completely clinical and you stop taking calculated risk, A, the art and the practice is going to die. If you don't use your knowledge as an opportunity to reform that thing that you're learning, then it becomes history and repetition and it no longer becomes art. So first and foremost, that. And second, there are always going to be people that take risks. And as long as they're aware of what the outcomes, potential outcomes of those risks are, as long as their bottoms specifically have informed themselves and are informed of what their top is going to do. Then that's part of being an outlaw. Like that's part of why we get to ask him in the first place. That's part of why this is what turns us on. Well, but the outlaw component is where you put almost not the art, but as almost performance art where it's about, it's as equal or more importantly about the characters as it is about, let's say the technique of whatever it is. Does that make sense? It makes sense. I think I'm talking about the technique. I'm talking sort of in the broader scope of the idea that nobody got into SM for the safety. Like nobody went, man, I need some safer sex. So what I'm going to do is get into bondage because I'm going to have to be so much more safe. It's going to happen. I'm going to have to be so much more safe than I am now because I'm doing something that's extra dangerous. Well, but it's true. When you get caught up in those kinds of details, as you had said, it makes it very clinical. I mean, just a quick like 30 second for it. My history, I was a classically trained vocalist. I studied classical vocal performance, full ride to university, went to study the conservatory in Paris. And I'll tell you, my skills were like fucking amazing. My technique, I started doing it with an Italian teacher at 15. My technique was bam. And people would get chills because of my voice. But I would go and sing anything else. And I sounded like, there was no passion. There was no, I mean, I was so focused on the technique that I lost that. And so when I stopped singing opera and I started singing more contemporary music, I had to, I had to let go of a lot of shit. I had to let go of a lot of, but it has to be perfect. It has to be perfect. It has to be perfect. It has to be perfect. All of these things that have been drilled into me from the age of 11, I had to start letting them go and realizing that sometimes the imperfection is where the art is. Yes, absolutely. Bobby Sabi. Yeah. And Baku is very much the same way. Another thing that's really interesting about that issue is with Itose, the disheveled hair, the making it not right, the unbalance is a big attraction to this. It's saying the world is not in order, it's disordered, and it's attractive. And there's sort of this philosophy that the Japanese hold that if you make something too perfect, if the lines are perfectly straight, if everything's perfectly, geometrically clean, your eye disregards it. Yeah, it does. You see it, you see that it's geometrically clean, you move on to something else. If it's tweaked, if it has something slightly wrong, if it moves in an asymmetrical way, if it moves in a way that somebody isn't expecting, you don't necessarily recognize it immediately. You'll look at the picture, it'll catch your eye, and your mind will engage in trying to figure out why something isn't quite right with it. And if it does that, it'll hold your attention, longer. Very true. Very true. Right, and that's a lot of the art aspect of this. And one of the things I want to relay, because I didn't get a chance to earlier, we talked about Seiyu, but Seiyu inspired a number of people. His art and the things that were done about him and talked about him, got other artists who were visual people as well. A gentleman named by the name of Minamaru Kū, who inspired a number of people, even up to the modern age. Yeah. He has, who doesn't want to be claimed as a student, but a person who was inspired by him, a gentleman by the name of Ricky Chimeo, who is 80 now and still tying. Wow. And tying in ways that would just blow you away. He's like, he is the history of the art living and tying now. That's awesome. Yeah, so I mean, and his stuff, when you look at what he does, also this entire unbalance of what you're looking at. But everything I hear about him is his tensions are perfect. The way that the actual rope is applied is perfect. But the visual of just looking at this going, what the hell is going on here, is entirely unbalanced and it's deliberate. It's his aesthetic of being. It's his beauty. It's the way he sees it. And his voice is his voice in this art. And that's the thing that's great. And that's the thing that's great about rope. That's the reason that you put all of the effort into it. And that's the reason why you learn what you learn is because it has no form other than the form you give it. It has no interaction other than the interaction you give it. You take that person in front of you and you're able to put your intention on them in whatever way you see fit. If you have. The ability to do so. If you know the general principles of not even specifics of pattern, but you know, the general principles of what's going to draw out of the person you're tying the reaction that you're looking for. There is sort of nothing like that. So how does somebody start doing that? Because, man, I mean, I mean, it's awesome. But I know if I was. Sitting at home listening, I'd be like, yes. How do I do that? What's the first step? I have rope. I have a person. Rope bite is the rope bite munch is a local Los Angeles get together of rope enthusiasts. It happens the first Saturday of every month. And that's an international movement. That rope bite is around the world. Yeah. If you are in any other city that's not Los Angeles, don't think, man, I don't have a rope bite. All the cool shit's in LA. There are rope bites. But whatever. There are rope bites all over the United States. There are rope bites all over the world. The one in Los Angeles is the first Saturday of every month. It's at the Senior Fish in Little Tokyo, which is a taco place in Little Tokyo. Hey, it's cool. Go with it. Fits the pattern. It's an LA thing. Yeah. And it starts. What time do we start up, Matt? One o'clock. One o'clock. So it will start then. We're also adding a piece. We're working on a piece for a free tying after that. We're in the process of nailing down a location. It hasn't been 100% locked down yet, so we're not quite ready. And there's also a ton of instruction. Yeah. There's a ton of instruction. You can go. There's SoCal Shibari Group. There's Miss Cassie's Rope Munch. There is. There are lessons in threshold. There are lessons in any of the major sort of play spaces in Los Angeles have some sort of rope component that they do. On a regular basis. If you're a beginning person. Don Sir has a class. Yeah, Don Sir has a class. Evening with Don Sir that he does. That's also excellent. You can go to go to any of those meet like people. I would encourage you to learn from a person. Don't learn from a book. Learn from a person. I have lots of books. Don't learn from a video. I do. I have all of the books. I'm going to differ with my student on that. I also have YouTube. There are books done. In English. Most importantly, there was a gentleman by the name of Urs Hugo. Who did a book called Mind and Techniques. And that was done in English. That was kind of a Jackie Robinson moment for us all. Version one and two. And it comes with the DVD. Yeah. And that was done by a Japanese. Now on Amazon. I don't know. Actually, a website called Jagoya.com. But that was a interesting moment for us all. It was the first time a Japanese rigger actually said, you know what? I am going to teach you English speakers some technique and in a mass form. So it is a very special situation that's going on with that. We are currently right now working with a number of Japanese riggers to start putting out more information in English. There is a working dialog going on in Japan that doesn't happen here, partly because we're all so distant from each other. We're a group within a subgroup within a subgroup within a subgroup. We're a group of people and our communication is starting to get better. But Japan is getting ready to talk to us. If there's any message I want to relay tonight is that there are people talking to me right now that I know of. There are people talking to people all over the country in the English speaking world and also England has their thing with London. There's things going on all over the world with Japan actually wanting to reach out and start teaching this art. Yeah. That's a fantastic. And it's not a it's not a you come to Japan and we teach you because traditionally up to this point, there are a lot of English speakers who have learned in Japan by going to Japan, we're we're getting on the cusp of people from more people from Japan because we have people come over Shibari Con. There have been people that have come over. I mean, Yukimura has come over for some private classes with some folks, but more and more frequently and different and different depths of people and different people that we haven't heard of and people that are practicing different techniques, they're starting to realize that there's a thirst for that kind of knowledge. Yeah. And the other thing is, is what we try to make plain to the people in Japan is they have a very tough economy there. It's a very tough situation in Japan right now. They just went through the earthquake and all that that's gone on. They've had an economy that has not really done well. In the past few years, we're trying to make this also an economic issue for them of put this stuff out in English and people here will look at it and probably be very interested in it, but it's a matter of someone crossing the line and finally getting this done, and I think we're getting close. But I would also say to anyone listening to this, check in your local city, your local area and see what's available, because you never know who's actually been out there and has some knowledge. There's a friend of ours who was here from Kansas City, who's a very accomplished student in Japanese, Kenbaku. Where you can have barbecue and you can have shibari at the same time. Dude, Arthur Bryant's, I'm just saying, it's happening. A gentleman by the name of Okinawa, who we spent time with this past weekend, very knowledgeable person in Kenbaku. Sup, Okie? Yeah. Who, again, Kansas City, you wouldn't imagine in Kansas City you'd get Japanese technique. Don't assume, because of where you are, that there's nothing there for you. No, no, I can think of, I can think of people, I can think of credible, intelligent people who can teach you in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Toronto, Montreal, Boston, DC, like DC, DC, especially Florida, Atlanta, like Texas, Kansas City. Like if, if you can, if you can do a little research, you can find someone, if you can do the research and have the commitment, you can find someone who will teach you. Yeah. Dude. Dude? D-E-W-D. Like he said. Knowledge bombs dropped on us. This was, I mean, and again, I still really feel it's such a broad and deep topic. I mean, we could go on for another hour discussing some of the- If only the video was working. If only the video, I mean, some of the images and the symbolism and stuff like that. We can talk about that and the specific and the history of the art, because I love art. This won't be the last time you're here, just so you know. No, y'all's close enough, you coming on. It's happening. You know, you have my cell phone number, you can't not. It has to happen. Yeah, I have to answer that call. How, if you're interested, how can people reach you two gentlemen? Primarily the easiest way to find us is the Devil Mask Society. We're probably the public face of Kenbaku in the L.A. area at the current moment, though. That would be the easiest way to find us is through the Devil's Mask Society. It's a group on FetLife. But again, we're not the only game in town. I can think of a couple of people who are out there representing Master K. If you want to get lessons from him, I would highly advise it. That is a wealth of knowledge that is. Not as tapped. I wouldn't say untapped, but not tapped as well as it should be. And I'm Charlie underscore frown. Charlie frown. And then there's also the Rope Bite Munch. And I again, that's that's out there. I run that and it's available to anybody. And if you can't make it on Saturdays to the Rope Bite Munch, the first Thursday of the month is the East Side Munch, which is a munch that I host. Always on my calendar. I just never make it. It's a rotating location, so it's not in the same place. But there is a group. It's called the East Side Munch on FetLife that you can look up if you're in Los Angeles or if you are visiting Los Angeles on the first Thursday of the month. Please come out and visit us. We have an awesome time. And I will promise to when you get your video system working again to allow some of this art to be seen. Awesome. Don't hold out with that. We're way out of time. This was awesome. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for coming in. I so value you. I feel inspired. Thank you, ladies, for being lovely as always. It was a real pleasure. The show is Intellectual Kink. On the Twitter it's Kink-Electual. I'm Insidious Muse. And I'm Service Slut. And that's Jeremy. And that's Jeremy. I love Jeremy so much. And next week we have somebody else on. I'm sure we do. Crap, I have that EMT I have to call back. So figure it out. Anyway, review us on iTunes, please, please, please. Share us. Tell everybody how much you love us. Because, you know, we love us. We have a lot of self-love, which is awesome for masturbation. But we really want an orgy. So it's adage. So that's how we're closing out. Good night. Wow.