Madonna's Blonde Ambition dancers discuss tour and Truth or Dare

Get the knives out. Dish is about to be served. Outrageous. Are you kidding? I've been inside only one woman after I was born. The Statue of Liberty. Provocative. If it's a pain in the ass, honey, you're not doing it right. Pop culture. Meanwhile, she's on the cover of Us Weekly. Dating. Boyfriends are like jobs. Except he probably stopped sucking after a year. Wicked. What do I look for in a guy? My dick. Smart. Sassy. Contemporary. I mean, I can't. Porn Again, the podcast. Hi, everyone. Hello. Hello, mister. We're here for what? We're here for dinner. I know. Well, you said porn, and I thought food. They always go together. Eating. What I think will be one of the best episodes ever. So welcome to Porn Again, the podcast. Obviously. Obviously. I'm Josh Zabara. So I'm excited to have my guests today, who are all strikingly individual personalities, linked by one iconic superstar, who is Madonna. Charo. Right. What if that was? What if it was? Back up singers for Charo. Who's amazing, by the way. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. So these three gentlemen joined Madonna on the 1990 Blonde. They were on the Ambition tour and were featured in the subsequent Miramax documentary, Truth or Dare. Lewis Camacho. Lewis emerged from the underground ballroom scene in New York, specifically the house of extravaganza. Yeah. Am I saying that right? Do I say it with the right flair? Absolutely. Roll the R. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't you love when people do that, when people speak a certain language, but they say everything in that accent? They repeat it. Like, they're like, oh, we're going on a vacation to Nicaragua. I'm like, just fucking say Nicaragua. Yeah, just say Nicaragua. Okay? Oh my God. It's fine. No need. Yeah. You're also an actor. You appeared in The Birdcage. I did? Yes. With Kevin. With Kevin, right. And Kevin, you were in Showgirls, too. This is Showgirls. Which, of course, is a classic. Kevin is in Showgirls. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. We take the cash. We cash the check. We show them what they want to see. That's right. And so that just got me totally off track. And Louis, you are continuing to work as a choreographer. Is that right? I do, yes, from time to time. Absolutely. Great. And then Kevin Stay. Yes. Kevin, you were the assistant choreographer, dance captain, and dancer on The Truth or Dare Tour. Yes, sir. Is that right? And you've danced with, let me make sure I have this all right, but stars including Lady Gaga, Jennifer Lopez. Janet Jackson, Prince, Beyonce, Cher, Britney Spears. Yeah. And you've modeled for designers including Jean-Paul Gaultier, Calvin Klein, Fendi. Yeah. So what haven't you done? Maybe that would have been a shorter list. What things you haven't been involved in? Bjork. You know what? Bjork. Bjork. I wanted to. I know. I was supposed to do Dancer in the Dark with Vince Patterson as his assistant. Oh, I thought you were going to mean as a tour. I was like, I don't picture that to be so high energy. No, I just have my list. I have my like bucket list of people I'm like dying to work with that I'd work for for free. Bjork is on there. Is on there. And oddly, so is Sheila E. Sheila E is my next door neighbor. I love Sheila E. What? Shut up. Is she really? Shut up. Literally, she's borrowing a parking spot from me right now. Are you fucking kidding me? So we can talk about that. Oh my God. I tell her every time I see her, I will do anything for you for free. Okay. Well, we can talk about that because literally we share a wall. So she drums me to sleep at night. Oh my God. And I don't know if I'm allowed to just say that, but I said it. Okay. Okay. And also you continue to act and dance and sing and people can find your music at thatrogueromeo.com. Yes. So check that out. And Carlton Wilborn. Yes. You began actually as a professional dancer in Chicago, right? With the Hubbard Street Dance Company. Correct. And then you went to Madonna's tour from that. Is that right? By way of other things. So I finished Hubbard Street and then went to Australia, worked with the Sydney Dance Company. Okay. Another company in Columbus, Ohio called Ballet. And then I met, then ended up in LA. And then you actually went on to do the Girly Show with her. Is that right? Okay. And you've also, you worked with Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Twyla Tharp. Twyla Tharp, Mariah Carey, all, yeah. And you also act, you have, I think, more than 20 film and TV roles. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun. And now you are, in addition to continuing to dance, you're a life coach. That's where a lot of my focus is now as well. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, you have a memoir, because we love memoirs around here. Oh, yes. That's the juicy stuff, y'all. Front and center. Which is amazing, by the way. I know. You have to get mine signed before you leave. Cool. And then your workbooks, and these are all available on Amazon. Absolutely. Amazon and carltonwilburn.com. Hmm. Got it. All right. All right. So now we know who we're talking to here. So there's a new documentary coming out. It's a Dutch film. Is that right? Yeah. That revisits the Blonde Ambition tour on Truth or Dare 25 years later, and sort of gathers all of you to talk about what was life after that. Yeah. What was life like during and after? During and after. Okay. But although we're supposed to think we know what life was like during, right? I don't think so. Based on Truth or Dare. I mean, or no. No. So that wasn't really a documentary in the true sense? I see what you mean. It wasn't particularly about us, per se. We were subjects in it, but it wasn't about us. So there's definitely a backstage of the backstage that needs exploring. Got it. And this film does that. Got it. Okay. So before I get into all of that, I always like to cover one or two hot topics or things that are, which most people call hot topics, I call things that are annoying me that week. So I'm wondering if everyone heard about the Elton John harassment suit that we saw. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That one of his bodyguards claims. Yes, exactly. He's been grabbing parts. Exactly. So what do we think? Like, do we think that that's... A John Travolta situation? Did I say that? Oh, my goodness. Everything that we're saying is allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. Always alleged. Yeah. I, well, I wouldn't put anything past him, but I can't, I think it's just, it's just extortion, honestly. Well, and also it's, he stopped working for Elton John. He was fired in 2014. So whether or not he just filed or how this just comes out now, and if you're working for somebody for that long, because to my knowledge, he had been working for him for years before that. So why didn't he quit and it come up at that time? Right. Those are the things that I don't entirely understand. I mean, listen, I think it gets a little trickier than that. Like, I always question. I think that we sometimes as a culture have to be careful that we are, most of the cases, we are there to support the situation. So, you know, I don't think anybody's ever been able to do that. So, you know, I don't think anybody's ever been able to do that. So, you know, I don't think anybody's ever been able to do that. So, you know, I don't think anybody's ever been able to do that. So anybody else that's under that title, we always want to assume they're just trying to do something to get some attention, to get some money. And that's not necessarily the case. Well, of course. And I also believe that, you know, just watching my own journey, there are things that have happened that it takes you a while to process. And like, maybe the guy needed two, three years to decide, shit, should I really do this? I know I want to do this. What's the ramification? Right. Right. Right. Real talk. You really are a life coach. I mean, I'm listening to that right now. I want to write you a check just for that. I'm just saying. Anyway, the rest of us jaded folk. I love the planet that you live on. Hey, it works for me. You know, it could go either way. I mean, again, you know, I'm not saying one way or the other. I wasn't there. I don't know. But it just seems to me that the fact that it's coming up now, you know, I always scratch my head a little bit when things like that happen. Also, having been people who are around celebrity, is it possible that when that familial feeling starts, when you begin to feel close to somebody, that things happen and lines get crossed? I mean, I know people who are friends of mine who are celebrities and whom I worked with, where if they grabbed me or pinched my butt or whatever, I wouldn't think twice about it. Nor would I consider it harassment because of my relationship with them. Absolutely true. So at what point does that line really get crossed? It's about comfort. I mean, I treat my friends in a way that I feel like I would be in the hot seat in that sort of situation as well. I treat people very comfortably and I'm very physical and touchy-feely. Not in a pervy kind of way, but in a playful way. No, that's disappointing. Well, it depends on who's around. Like I expected so much more. From you, Kevin. So, and then related to that, also, while we're on the Elton John wagon, what did you think of his comments, having been on tour with a number of celebrities who I'm sure use varying degrees of backing vocals and tracks, about his comments about Janet Jackson and how he'd rather see a drag queen perform than a Janet Jackson show? Wait, I missed that. I missed that one too. Yeah. He commented that she lip-syncs her way through a show and that he'd rather see. He'd get more entertainment out of a drag queen than watching a Janet, than paying money to see Janet Jackson. I mean, look, I mean, I think that that's just, why be mean? Yeah. Like, what's the point of that? She's dancing her ass off. Nobody dances as hard as Janet does anymore. Well, and that's what I was going to say. How do you, if when you're, I mean, he is, give it to him, he's a great musician, but he sits at a piano and sings and it's not that high energy. When it's somebody who actually has to perform, how do you keep the quality of the vocals up and dance the way you want? And like, why is he making a comment about Janet and what, and what she's doing? Like, what's the, why? Right. Why? Right. What's the point? Yeah. He's being outspoken. Other than the fact that Janet is happening right now and it gives him some relevance. Yes. There you go. All right. I like that. He's a lot to say about a lot of people. There was some edge there, Carlton. Baby, the truth is not left. Wow. All right. So that's, that's what I have for now. All right. Topics. Okay. So now I kind of want to get into where all of your journey started. So Louis, if you could sort of explain a little bit about the New York ball scene and for people who aren't as familiar with, like there was a documentary in 1990, Jenny Livingston's film, Paris is Burning, that sort of brought that culture to the forefront. And it's sort of been an underground New York thing. Can you explain? So people who are sort of arriving at that fair a little late understand what that world is and what you were living through. At that time. Well, the ball scene started, at least to my knowledge, God, back in the, like, I want to say 60s, even probably far as far back as maybe the late, late 50s. They were primarily for men who dressed up in drag and, you know, trans gender men. Or transgender women. And they would get together. And it was like a beauty pageant back then. They would get together and, you know, the categories back then were who can look like a showgirl. Who can, you know, who is passable. Who is the prettiest. Who is, you know, who can look like a businesswoman. Who can look like a mom. You know, or things like, things like that. So they would kind of just gather and have these beauty pageants per se. Okay. Over the years, they've evolved into what we now know are the ball scenes. Which now include butch queens, which are just gay guys. And, you know, the categories are now more lengthy. Wait, but explain butch queens a little clearer. A butch queen is just a gay guy. Is it just a gay guy or is it a masculine gay guy? Well, no, it's not. It's not a masculine gay guy. A butch queen? A butch queen is just, you know. Maybe everyone else is such a queen that then just your average gay guy becomes a butch. Well, in terms of ballroom language. Ah, got it. Yeah, just in terms of. Just dressing like a man. Just a guy. How did you know about this world? Like, how old were you at the time that you sort of got into that? I want to say 15, 16. So where did you find out about it and how did you get involved? When I went to high school. I went to the high school of performing arts in New York. You mean like the Debbie Allen Fame High School? Yes, I went to the Fame School. Okay. And then pay in sweat. Yes. It was the first year that the school merged with music and art high school. So it was the first year that it was the Fiorello H. LaGuardia School of the Arts. Just in dance and being in dance class. And there were other guys who were in the gospel choir who were in the ballroom scene. And we just kind of, we just found. And we just kind of gravitated to them. It just kind of happened kind of organically. And were your, did your family, were they aware of this or was it sort of something you did in your own? Yeah, I did it on my own, you know, after school, after my scholarship classes. I want to know what the first ball you went to. I think one of the first balls I went to was a Paris's Burning Ball, actually. And it was tough because, you know, I said, oh, I'm going to go sleep over a friend's house. You know, we're going to go out and, you know, like to a movie or something. And they're just lying to my parents. But that's not entirely inaccurate. It's not entirely inaccurate. You were going to friends and you were going out. And so, but the balls back then didn't start till literally like five in the morning. So people would get to the ball. Going to breakfast. Yeah, exactly. So if I knew that, my lie would have been like. Different. You know, I'm getting up early. Instead of going like at 10 o'clock or, you know. I'm going to work out. Exactly. You'd have been like the star student getting up early. Exactly. So the inspiration for voguing sort of came from that. Scene, yes. That ball scene. So you brought, and Madonna brought that to the mainstream in the famous music video that David Fincher directed. Yes. How involved in that were you and how much of that choreography and that. Oh, wow. So me and Jose did all the choreography for it. So all of that is basically you. And she just sort of recognized that she could appropriate it and bring it into the mainstream. Is that really what. I mean, for lack of a better. I mean, I'm not saying that as though she still. I mean, I'm not. No, she hired us to do that. To do that specifically. She hired us. What is it that you think that she saw? Like what, how. Obviously, she was very forward thinking to see that and realize that it could be something that she could mainstream. Yes. And was there anything about it where you're where anybody felt like this is sort of our cultural thing and. I didn't feel like that at the time. I honestly didn't. She was. She was writing a song about Vogue. And she needed. Bogers to choreograph the video. So I really just took it like that. And how do you know how she was aware of the all scene and. Well, she comes from. Comes from this underground club background herself. So I wasn't surprised that she knew, you know, the goings on in, you know, at the clubs at the time. I mean, it's interesting sometimes when people ask me about her and what's it like and what she really like. I always say I perceive that at the end of the day, she is an underground artist that's been given a lot of money to do her project. Oh, yes, absolutely. That. Really at the core. That's what she is. Yeah. So there are a lot of people who could be Madonna out there with if given. If given the resources. Right. Absolutely. Got it. So, Kevin, you were 21 when you joined. Is that right? Or 20 if I did my math right. But but that's why I write because I can't. I was 10. Now I'm the baby. Somewhere around there. Yeah, I remember. Oh, no, I was 20 because when I. I flew to Paris on my 21st birthday and for the Gautier show and ran into Madonna that night and we went out for my birthday. And I was 20 when you ran into her. You had already known each other. Oh, yeah. We already already done the tour. And she's like, let's have dinner. We'd already done the tour and literally I bumped into her. But literally I bumped into her in Paris. OK. I landed with no hotel, nothing. And I just went to the only hotel I knew, which is Hotel Maurice, where we stayed on tour. And I was like, well, I'm here. I don't know what to do. I dropped my bag, walked over to the Ritz Carlson randomly. And her Brits was outside and Madonna was right inside. And so we like hung out all night. And had you already I know you did some photos. What happened to your bag? Left it at Hotel Maurice. Until I got it. Until I got it. Until I got a hotel. Hold this for me. Oh, good. Literally. But luckily they remembered me from the summer. That's hysterical. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but here. So they were very accommodating. They were very accommodating. Very nice. So you had you've done photos for her Brits. Is that right? So had you did you know him before running into him there or was that sort of. Yeah. Well, he had. He'd followed us along often on tour. Yes. He was with us in Japan for the whole month and he was with us in Europe. Like he was around a lot. And they're images of his work in Truth or Dare. OK. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. So, Carlton, I know you are a trained dancer. Yeah. Obviously from the Hubbard Street. So can you tell me a little bit about what your life was like before? Because you had already experienced some time in the spotlight. Yeah. I mean, I had let me think by the time I got to L.A., I had a lot of experience. I had been in Hubbard Street. I had worked with another company as a guest artist. I'd been a soloist in the Nutcracker, the, you know, sort of traditional holiday. Extravaganza. And at the time of the audition. Thanks. At the time of the audition, I had actually I was on hold for Whitney Houston's tour. So I had auditioned for her before I auditioned for Blonde and Whitney was on hold. She didn't know how long she went to go out for. So we were just on hold. And I heard that this other audition was happening and it was him. And I was like, fuck it, I'll go. Like, I've already got a gig in my pocket. It doesn't even matter. I was literally just there to just like have fun and maybe see her and whatever. And poof, she invited and I had to go like, oh, my God, oh, my God. And people are like, well, of course you would have gone to the Madonna tour. And I'm like, no, I'm a young black boy. Like it back then was fucking Whitney Houston. Yeah. Right. That's what the magic was. Yeah. But something told me to go the other direction. And I'm really glad I did because our thing became what our thing did. And Whitney ended up only going to Japan for three weeks. Wow. Totally. But if she had if you had been with her, it may have all been different. She would have changed. She may have decided she wanted to spend all that time with you. I would have been alive today. Everything. You would have been the bodyguard. Kevin Costner's career could have been over. There would be no Kevin. I mean, you know, dancing for me. I mean, at that point it was I you know, I was really clear when I left Hubbard Street and left and left Chicago to come to L.A. You know, especially at that time, the L.A. dancers were the show people and the New York people, which I was sort of closer to were like the technicians. And so one of the coolest things that I got to do when I first came out here was a gig with Paula Abdul for the American Music Awards. And it was Paula and I got to do a gig with Paula Abdul. And it was a big thing. And it was a big thing. And it was a big thing. And it was a big thing. And then I go way back. Oh, do you really? And it was the first time that the East and the West came together and it was her and like 18 guys in this fun thing. But the point is, I remember when I left Chicago and I was like, I know what that town is about. I'm going to go to that town and have them get me exactly as I am. Like, I was really clear that I was not going to contort myself into some other thing. And it did what it did. And I think it worked. So, yeah. So Truth or Dare sort of became like the first time. Like for me. It was one of the first times that I saw. And I know not everybody was open and as open in the film as you mentioned to me once before as is perceived. But I remember seeing the film in the theater and it being one of the first representations of openly gay men who seem to be living their lives and living their lives authentically. I remember you specifically in the scenes at the Pride Parade. And that was really inspiring to me as a closeted gay. Youngster to sort of see that there was a hope there. I'm sure I'm not the first person who said that to you guys. How do you feel about that and sort of owning that and that place that role that you play in people's lives that you may hear from you may not hear from them. But the fact that it really it probably did a lot for a lot of people. It was the probably the best gift quote unquote to come out of this whole experience. Yeah. Don't you think? I mean. An honor, truly. Yeah. I mean, when we hit even when we hit the states, I mean, people were already starting to come up to us and just say, oh, my God, wow, you guys even just not even seeing the movie just coming up to us like, oh, my God, you guys are so fantastic. You know. So you did know. Did you guys know? I mean, until that started happening. Did you guys know? What you were going to do? Any idea what you were going to be representing to people? Not at all. Not at all. I mean, I mean, I was being authentically myself. But at the time I was just questioning as well. I didn't know if I was gay or straight, but it gave me a space to sort of explore it and figure it out. I do what I like. But I just dated that. I remember I just got out of my relationship with that girl. Yeah. Look, it was obviously everybody else since I was 13. That girl named Bruce. Right. I'm thinking about it right now. I mean, the reality is, and I never really thought about this to what you just brought up. The real facts about the representation of out gay men in truth from the movie was only really expressed by you and Jose and Sam. And engaged all over the kids. But that wasn't even an authentically gay thing. That was a dare. That was a dare. That was a dare. Right. So that doesn't explain. That's a dare. Right. But I think it felt to people, like to me, it felt like everybody seemed very liberated in that movie. True. And it seemed like there was an open space for people to be who they wanted to be. And it wouldn't have mattered if you were fucking a man, a woman, a sheep, whatever. Bi, straight, gay, whatever. It just seemed like an accepting environment. It was. Which was sort of great to see and sort of I felt was hopeful. Absolutely. You know, in a way. So on screen it appears that you're related. Yeah. It appears that your relationship with Madonna was very close. Would you have at that time considered her a close friend or a confidant? Or is that sort of, was that manufactured somewhat for the cameras? Like how deep would you go with her? Well, it wasn't manufactured, but I think it all depended on our own comfortability with ourselves. I mean, I felt very friendly with her, but then that was the level of my friendship with everybody at that point, I think. So as much of a friend as I could be to anyone, there we were. You know, I don't know, for you guys. I was, I felt very close to her. Well, only because, you know, she came to New York. We did a private audition for her where our DJ friend of ours opened a club and, you know, she came to the club. He turned on the music and we just started dancing with her. We went out with her a couple of times just to kind of get to know her and stuff like that. And I don't know. I mean, it was my first real form of friendship. It was my first real foray into that level of dancing and gig and, you know, being involved in a gig like that. So she knew where we were coming from. And so she kind of like, you know, held us, quote unquote, held us close to her. And, you know, we felt very, very close to her in that way. And how... I would say for myself, if I can share. Yes. I mean, it was, again, it was slightly different for me. I did feel very free in the show and in the tour and throughout that and was watching even myself inside of like a creative environment be expressed in ways that I had never gotten an opportunity to. But in regards to how close she felt, she definitely felt close. But I was also aware of what she was and what we were there to do. And I was really clear early in the game to not get it twisted. Yeah. So how were you at that age? I mean, so, so able to process that and understand. Was that because of your background and already having worked professionally? Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. I mean, I had not names obviously as big as that, but still people that were hierarchy, you know. Got it. And so I knew where to place them and where to place myself, no matter how friendly they show you on Tuesday. But Carlton is also more mature than all of us anyways. Well, he's a life coach. I mean... And by mature, you mean older. And by mature. I mean, he's a little bit older. He's sitting there right now thinking about how I need to be a client. I can say this though. Kevin said that first. I can say it though because he looks 20 years younger than all of us. Black don't crack. He definitely does not look his age. Exactly the same. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So how long before Truth or Dare actually hit theaters did you guys see it? Oh, we saw it at... How long before? Maybe two or three weeks. Was it two or three weeks? Yeah. Two or three weeks. Two or three weeks. Two or three weeks. Two or three weeks. Was it at a... No, that was private. It was a screening. We did a screening in a small theater because I kind of pushed it and made it hurt. Yeah. I never saw it in a theater with everybody. I was not at the premiere, so I saw it on video the very first time. Oh, wow. Wow. And you saw it where? I saw it at the premiere. We all went to the premiere with her in New York. Oh, you didn't see the screening? No. No. Maybe it was just me, Oliver, and Gabriel then. Because it was in Los Angeles. Yeah. So we were in New York, so we had to wait till... Well, we didn't have to wait, but we first saw it at the premiere. Me and Jose went to the premiere with her, like literally with her. I remember seeing shots of you on the red carpet going in with her. Yeah. We went to her house, changed, and then got into the vehicle and went with her. Now, when you... So for the first time when you're watching this footage and you see her say, hey, I'm going to go to the premiere, what do you think? And you see her say things like, I think I surround myself with people who are emotionally crippled. Okay. How does that feel? Because to some degree, she's talking about everyone who she brings on the tour with her, and here you guys are, young, impressionable, hearing her say something like that, which you were not in earshot when she said that. So how does that feel to then have a relationship with somebody you consider yourself close to? How does that feel to her refer to you that way? It hurt. I remember watching it and going, oh, why would she say that? But then it was a bit of a shock. And I wish I had actually come out of that screening and been much more thankful and grateful than... It's an amazing movie, but been more outspoken about how much I enjoyed it. But at the time, that really stood in my mind. After I saw the movie, I was like, wait, she thinks I'm emotionally broken and damaged? That's awkward. Yeah. That's awkward and weird. And it did have me second guess what our relationship was. And what about for you guys? I honestly didn't give it a second thought. And that's only because me and Jose, and I'll speak for myself, but I didn't feel that way towards myself. So honestly, she can say whatever she wants. I mean... I didn't feel that way. And I knew in my own self that I was... I am who I am. And that's what I brought to the table. And that's what she liked about us. But did you feel betrayed at all by the fact that that was what was going... Or at some point that that went through her head? And who knows, it could have just been in the moment that that was shot that that's what went through her head. I mean, do I wish she chose other words? Yes. You know what I'm saying? But she chose those. So there you have it. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't feel betrayed about it. But what I did realize when I heard those words is that we were generalizations, that we were tools in a story. Like sort of characters. Characters and very just stereotyped kind of across the board to make a point. And it made me feel sad that we weren't given the opportunity to be individuals and to be ourselves and to really be shown as people rather than just like sort of broken gay dancers. Well, and I wonder if she realized like that, to my point earlier about it, that she was so inspirational to people like me to have seen you guys, that if she realized that to some degree, I mean, at least for me, you guys were the stars of that movie. Like, she's Madonna. I knew what I was getting. I knew what kind of music I was going to hear. I knew what the concert footage was going to look like. What I didn't know was about the world that you guys were living in. So to me, that was the revelation. And I think that's what I was going to do. And if you really look at some of what went on in that movie, looking back, if you want to apply the term emotionally crippled, I mean, there were so many things that she I mean, she does not come across as the most likable character in that movie. I mean, there are so many moments where she's having something to say about Kevin Costner. I think she says something about Oprah Winfrey. She makes a comment about Janet Jackson. I mean, there's a lot of sort of slamming and and she doesn't come across as the warmest person in that movie. But I think and I'd like to hear Carlton what you think about that, because is that just a persona? Is that what she needs to be? Is that just sort of the is that the role that she functions in? That's exactly where it sits for for me. And even in the moment when I saw or heard her use those words to define who we were. You know, I mean, I chuckled inside because I knew what she was doing. I had experienced these guys for months. And I'm not going to lie. I mean, you know, when you talk about the! The The The The The The The The The speak and to think that's what those words that's what the kevin costner bite that's what the other thing is about but is it getting them to think for themselves or is getting them to think the way she wants them to think i mean there's a difference i think she's interested in pushing the button yes that's the best way to say it and she and she readily admits that herself she's like i am interested in pushing that button that either you know evokes emotion talk conversation a feeling you know whatever what have you and so i think that statement was just that you know absolutely you know pushing a button saying something in front of the camera or into the mic i mean did she really feel that way towards the towards us who knows who knows you know like again do i wish she you know she chose different words yeah but she chose those i didn't feel that way and they didn't feel that way but especially because so much of what she's saying is just like she's like i don't know what to do with this and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and I think that this is such a huge conversation about our culture in regards to the celebrity. Right. We drink the juice. Which I'm going to get into a lot more with you a little later. We drink the juice of their identity. And anything that they say, anything, everybody, even though we all collectively know that they're show people and they're putting a thing on, a lot of people still fall for the okey-doke of what they do. Even they do. Even they buy the myth after a time. Well, you know, it's like OJ still believes he didn't kill Nicole Simpson. You know, I think he believes it. You know. I don't know. Carlton's like, what? But anyway. I digress. I digress. But to your point, she actually makes a comment in the movie where she says that celebrities sometimes assume friendships with other celebrities simply because they're famous. Right. So that sort of is the way. Right. That's the way of the world. As all of us know, having those people in our lives, you know, I've been with people who are famous and you're on a plane and they run into somebody who they don't know at all, but also happens to be famous in an entertainment. And there is this club that they're in and they hug each other and kiss each other as though there's some genuine. Long lost friend. It's the funniest thing. Sharing trauma. So the blonde ambition tour happened before people were really online. Okay. So it was really before the internet, before Twitter, social media. It is crazy, especially because so much of the memory of that lives online now and people see it that way. How do you think the whole experience would have been different if it occurred with those things floating around? With people having so much access to you. Because now everybody's touchable. You know, people can talk to us. They can, you know, send you a message. They can, you can reach anybody. Well, I can say this. I don't know. I never thought this is a great question. I could imagine seeing how the social network moves that we would have individually got more criticism. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Throughout the whole time. And more followers. Yeah. I'm going to starve. And more followers. One extrava. At one extrava. Passionate. Right. We will make sure we get everybody in. Everybody's social media. We will get in there. Hashtag Vet Rogue Romeo. Exactly. Really. So, okay. So the tour ends. Okay. And you guys get on planes and you fly home and the sun comes up the next morning. What is that moment like when you don't have to show up to a makeup room and you don't have to perform? Is it that? I imagine there's a grieving period. Yeah. I was broken, lost. Yeah. I came back without an apartment, nowhere to go. No idea that I didn't even think about arriving home. And suddenly it was like, oh, I'm here off the plane and I have a bag in my hand and no car and nowhere to go and no ideas and no savings because I spent it all on clothes. As one should. Yeah, as one should. I mean, I'm paying, I'm overseas. Yeah. It was, it was, there was no real rejoining the world for a moment. So how long a period of time were you in sort of that, that cloud? Yeah. How long was that cloud? Well, there was no real cloud. It was sort of like, oh, hit the streets. Oh my God, I'm broke and I have no money. What do I do? I had to go, I mean, literally right back into auditions that week, doing videos. Same thing I was doing right before I left. So it wasn't, it wasn't like barely a missed stop. It was just, okay, now I gotta get more money and I gotta work again. Blam, back to work. But what about maintaining the relationships? Because obviously you guys became very close. So keeping track of each other and wanting to be in touch with people who you were seeing every day. And then all of a sudden aren't in your life every day. Almost impossible. Almost impossible. I mean, there was no, again, there was no cell phones or no social media. It wasn't like we had emails to reach each other. Right. Like I didn't, from when we left tour to when we did the MTV awards, I didn't see, I don't think I saw any of them except Gabriel. But don't you think also that we also knew that we were working a job? Yeah. I mean the concept of family that's in the movie. Yeah. Okay. That's there to some degree, but we also knew that we were working a job and we, and from no job. So you absolutely expect to for sure stay in touch with everybody that you bonded with. But did you, you were that evolved in your thinking at 26? It's not even evolved. Like that's just how the industry is. I think it is. I think for that age, I think it's a pretty evolved. I literally just had made no plans. So there was no, I didn't know how to contact you guys anyways. I mean the fact that you had thought far ahead and said, oh, I know this is coming. Like I know this is coming and I know I'm going to have to deal with it. Yeah, but Carlton's journey was always so much more different than ours. He's very cerebral. He was very cerebral. He always had like a plan. I mean, I know I always look to Carlton, you know, for, you know, where we were even going sometimes. Like where's Carlton? Oh, he's over there. That must be the place where we're going. I could see where you would be like the parent or the troop leader, if you will. I mean, I know that, you know, sort of historically for me with jobs, whether it's her gig, I'm coming off of a TV series, I'm finishing a big movie. I am always strapped. I'm always strategizing before it ends, especially if it's a bigger, meaning if it's a big banger. I'm always positioning what the next thing is going to be because I know having been in it that that fallout might be there if I don't fill the void. So yeah, so I didn't come back with that kind of, oh my God, my world and what am I doing? First I was awesomely glad to have like a week to do nothing and, you know, see some friends that I hadn't seen. And talk about the fun that it was and like that was awesome. And then I just started moving the pieces together to do the next thing I knew I wanted to do, which for me was my acting career. And then Lewis, were you as, did you have like a real down? It wasn't like a real down. Again, you know, me and Jose were kind of like, because we were in the house of extravaganza, we were kind of, for lack of a better term, kind of local celebrity anyway in this underground, you know, kind of like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, my parents' apartment. Well, actually, they already moved out at the time, so it was already my apartment. And, you know, I hit the club that night and it was like fanfare. Oh, the queens have returned. The party continued. I mean, there was confetti. That's fantastic. A parade, things like that. I'm joking. Okay, I'm not joking. I would believe it. I totally would believe it. I actually believe that's what did happen. And then all of a sudden, you know, it was like a month later and we were going back to Los Angeles for the MTVs. Oh, okay. To do the MTVs. And when we went back, we didn't stay at a hotel. We stayed with Madonna at her house. Yeah. That's great. That's kind of exciting. So I've seen a lot of articles that have said that there was a period that after Truth or Dare, she sort of backed away from everybody a little bit. And some of the rumors that were around was because there was drug use among the group and, you know, people came across all sorts of life challenges and she didn't want to be involved with that and that she sort of backed away. Do you think, is that an accurate representation of what happened? Or do you think just, again, a product of the times and how people were able to be in touch that it just sort of faded out over time? Or what was the reason that she wasn't, she didn't remain a presence? I mean, I think, again, what's important about that is timing. It wasn't an instant thing, the way that it's positioned right now. You know, I mean, I was in relationship with her for easily a good solid 10 years after Close. Other projects, chilling out. I did a big gig in New York. She came through a personal invitation of mine, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then things shifted. But, you know, so I think that... But when you say they shifted, what do you attribute the shift to? Like, what changed? I don't think that it's any different than regular friendships and dynamics of relations that happen in the world. We are with somebody in 1992. I grow away a certain kind of way. They grow a certain kind of way. We don't call each other as much. I see you. It feels good. I see you. It doesn't feel good. I don't invite you to my dinner party. Like, that's just shit that happens with people. And it's just fascinating. It's fascinating that it becomes this amplified sort of, like, horror story that it's happening from a celebrity to you and, like... Well, in all fairness, it was presented to people in a way that here's this family and you watch that as a consumer and you think these people are bonded forever and that includes her. And I think we are. It took us a while to realize that. That you always have that link. You know, you guys will always be that family. For real. But, you know, but my question is, is why do you think that she hasn't stayed a part of it? I just think her machine just kept rolling along. I mean, she still, she had a career to kind of tend to. Well, let's also be clear. We're in proximity of each other right now because somebody else created a project and enrolled us into it. Right. I have never seen, like, before Strike a Pose, the film that's coming out now, I had not seen Jose, Slam, and Oliver since we finished the gig. 25 plus, you know. Years ago. So did you just sort of pick up where you left off with them or was there a lot? It was like that. I know, yeah. It was the weirdest dynamic. Same roles, the same dynamic. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, it's kind of phenomenal. It's amazing. It's literally amazing. It's like... So it's like you guys had never had that period of time that you were... It doesn't feel like there was a gap. There was just a gap of time where suddenly we're now grateful for each other. Absolutely. And aware of how much we mean to each other. Absolutely. Hands down, 100. That's like, that's such a special thing, you know, to sort of have something that, like, always bonds you. I mean, when we were just in Berlin for the, for Berlin Hall, again, you know, we're seeing these folks and even before, because there's a piece in the film where we have a moment we get to meet. And, yeah, I mean, I had, I was not in touch with how much these guys mattered to me. I guess in truth, if I'm honest, I thought a lot of them different or a lot of them did not matter to me is what I thought. You know, these two I've been in touch with. We've been out here. But the other guys was like, well, whatever. Not that I had a bad thing about them, but seeing them was just like, oh, my God, I fucking love you. And I've always loved you and you're like, awesome. Like, it's been really very exciting to feel the connection. Yeah. I kind of feel like I also kind of feel like Madonna's pull away from us was sort of my fault. In what way? Because of the lawsuit. Well, I was going to actually ask you about that. See, you didn't even have to ask him first. I clear it up all the time. He opened the door. He's good. He knows how to do it. He knew we were steering that way. Well, my question is less about the lawsuit itself. And I understand, you know, we're living in a different time and we're living in a time where now unscripted programming and how that material gets made and how deals are made. With people ahead of time. You know, it probably would have been a whole different negotiation and a whole different thing had that happened now. And what I'm curious about is you, Gabriel, and was it Oliver, right? Oliver, yeah. Chose to, you know, take legal action. The rest of you did not. And yet you guys still have this bond and friendship, but obviously see things a little differently because you guys, for example, Lewis and Carlton, you didn't join in on the lawsuit. Correct. So how do you deal with that in terms of the difference is an opinion of what went down? Well, first of all, I mean, the bottom line is that the three of us that pursued the lawsuit, it all came through our agency because they had written in our contracts for a movie, a clause in our contracts for a movie with a very specific amount. And just the fact that they weren't willing to pay that, our agency was like, we need to pursue this because they're not, they're replying to us. So that was the initial push for the lawsuit, which is really, the press really pushed it into different directions and made it into something like, oh, this family is a lie and Madonna's like lying, blah, blah, blah. And they don't understand what this project is and they lied to them. That's not true. It was a contractual thing and you were not paid. We were not paid. And the, Gabriel's issue was different because he was forcibly outed and they told him that anything he didn't want in the movie wouldn't be there. So his whole issue about that was very real because they, they did tell him that. And so from that, from him asking for it to have something pulled out, they said no. But did they actually say no? What I had heard was that she pushed his hand and said, oh, come on, it's a great scene. No, they did not. No, literally said, take it out, take it out, please take it out, begged over and over again. And literally when, when we saw the screening, then she said that, oh, the picture's locked. They said the picture's locked. And then, you know what's so interesting? It's not even such a seminal moment in the movie. I mean, it's part of that truth or dare game. But if that, you know, couple of seconds was lost, it would have made no difference. I think it's super important. I mean, I love Gabriel to death. He's my best friend. I think it is for the individual. But I think it's super important for everybody, for gay rights, for wondering, questioning gay kids who are looking at this movie thinking, am I gay? I don't know. And then they see this kiss and they think, oh my God, there's men kissing. It's hot. It's amazing. It's beautiful. but that kiss, as you brought up earlier, was not about two people being in love and kissing. It was about somebody daring them to kiss. True. But you can tell they both wanted it. So it doesn't necessarily represent what, you know, I don't know that it really represents in a very whole genuine way. Well, you can see the attraction there and you can see that they really enjoyed it. And I know that he did. It's just, he was, again, he wasn't ready to be a spokesperson for the gay lifestyle, especially not back then when it was like a career suicide and just a big, a huge deal. People have a hard time understanding what that's like now because it's not a big deal anymore. Everyone has an old gay friend or a gay so-and-so or like, it's now just sort of like a cultural must-have. Yeah, even if you don't. It's like you're an accessory. Even if you don't know somebody, you see it on TV. And back then, you had never seen anybody kiss on TV or you'd never seen two guys kissing at all. Right. So it was a whole. But it was important to him. Exactly. My point is that it was important for him to not be there. And in terms of their filmmaking, I understand what you're saying from a cultural perspective. From a filmmaking perspective, it would not have changed the narrative of that film or that story. No. They could have lost that without ruining the film. It's not like that moment made the movie. But I, in retrospect, because at the time, I supported Gabriel because I know what he was going through. But at the same time, looking back, I feel like now he'd probably be proud of it. Right. You know, I'm proud of it. I think it's wonderful that it's there. I didn't have an issue with it at the time either. I think as a sort of full, inclusive, ingredient for the film, the film would not have been impacted if it were not there. But in regards to her choosing to want to push buttons, and there's nothing more effective than a visual. Yep. Right. There you have it. So that's just, so it really just speaks to what everyone's agendas are. Sure. Which were different. You know, everyone had a different thing. Absolutely. He didn't want to be outed. He wanted to push people's buttons. They want, you know, regardless, of the cultural impact. So, so do you think that there's, and we can get into this, to this more in our next conversation in the next hour, but do you think that there was a part of your self-worth that was tied up in being linked to Madonna? Did you feel like as young people connected to a celebrity that part of what people were interested in or liked about you was your link to somebody like that? Or were you all sort of your own people at that point and were able to separate it? I was aware of it. You know, people wanting, I mean, simply for me, I noticed it first and foremost in regards to getting appointments. Like as an actor for me, because I came, you know, she and I were having conversations at the end of the tour about acting and I knew that she wanted to do more of it. She knew that I wanted to do more of it. Well, and she's the first person I'd ask for acting tips. No, no, no. Not acting tips. Just talking about acting. Be nice. I mean, I've seen bodyguards. Bodyguards. Body of evidence. It's out there. But no. Listen, she has other gifts. But I noticed it more in regards to like I was able to get indoors really fast. Like executives had me in and before I do a scene, they wanted to ask a couple of questions and, you know, at the time, it was totally cool and fun. And then over time, that sort of wears. But even, but I noticed it first there and then definitely it started to move into like dating and like, now you're a fan and you want to go out with me and that feels fucking weird. You know, so I think I've had to watch that. And what about you guys? Oh, goodness. I didn't really, I kind of pushed the association away. I didn't really find any sort of doors open for me that people would tell me. I'm sure at auditions and things, people were more likely to keep me and get me the gift. But it wasn't like they told me that. But in terms of how you felt about yourself, like your own. Oh, in terms of my self-worth? No, no. Because I guess I never really, I didn't understand until I was actually on tour how big of a star Madonna was. It wasn't like I thought about it ahead of time. Oh my God, she's so amazing. Oh, I'm so grateful and amazed to be a part of this tour. It was like only until I was actually ending it that I was like, wow, this is an amazing gig. But it was, I still with no sort of response from social media or knowing how the world was responding. It was just sort of this gig that went out into the ether, into nothingness and then there I was back at square one. It's kind of funny for all of us because I think one of the things that we are realizing now is that most of us were not big fans of hers at the time. Like we were going Well, I think that actually is a plus. Yeah. Oh, totally. When I was a marketing executive at the studios, I worked on some of the biggest movies, none of which I liked. Like I was not, I worked on Lord of the Rings. Could not be less interested. I do not need to see hairy little people walking, walking, walking. They have a battle, then they walk a little more, then they keep walking. I'm like, I don't even understand what the fuck this is. Silver Lake. But yet there are people. It's Silver Lake. Maybe that's why it felt so bad. Just blurted out. But literally, it's like, I think it helped, I think it helped that I was not a fan. Like I was not, and like Harry Potter, the same thing. I'm like, I don't care about these little fantasy wizards or whatever. I don't like, you know, and yet I think if I was, that attached to it, I think it's a, I think it's a liability when you're like too into it. So I think that's, you know, a great thing. So did you feel like you were okay with that in terms of your, how you felt about it? Because you already sort of had, like you said, you had some like local celebrity anyway. And, you know, again, going back to the House of Extravaganza when we went, you know, we traveled around town in a, in a really big group. I mean, it was, it was never less than 20 of us going here, there, everywhere. So, you know, I went back to my quote unquote house members who already knew, you know, who I was before the Madonna thing. You know, they surrounded us, you know, and kept us from, you know, a lot of that fake friendships. Well, it's great that you had that. That you had that support. Yeah. And which, we were very, you know, we were very lucky. You know, we were very lucky in that aspect. So, okay, so to wrap up this hour because we're just about out of time, two words from each of you that would describe your experience with Madonna, Blonde Ambition, and Truth or Dare. Just the whole experience. If you had to give me two words. Carlton, go. Because I don't know what to say yet. I'm like, two words to express my feelings about it. Yes, just the two things that come to mind. Grateful. Mm-hmm. Wisdom. Lewis. Exciting. And, and wonder, you know, wonder filled with. Mm. All right. Extraordinary. Defining. I think that's pretty amazing. All right, so, before we go into the next hour, Carlton, let's tell everybody where to reach you on Twitter. It's at Carlton Wilborn. At Carlton Wilborn on Twitter, yes. And Kevin, it's at Kevin Stay. At Kevin Stay everywhere. Instagram, MySpace even. And Lewis, you're at one Lewis extrava. Got it. With an X. Yeah. No E. No E. X-T-R-A-V. Thank you guys so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. All right. On to the next episode. Awesome. Thanks for listening. The No Holds Barred conversation continues 24-7 on Facebook at Josh Sabara Author and Twitter and Instagram at Josh Sabara. And then buckle your seatbelts for some titillating real talk. Porn Again, a memoir by Josh Sabara is available now as a trade paper back e-book and audio book. Porn Again, a memoir by Josh Sabara and audio book.