Interview with jewelry designer Catherine McKeels

Hello and welcome. We are here at The Life of an Entrepreneur and I'm Jan McCarthy with Entrepreneurial Voice and we are broadcasting live from skidrowstudios.com, real radio on the internet and we're here every Tuesday at 11 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. And we're here to talk about what it's like to be an entrepreneur. And if you have any questions, we'd love to hear from you. You can call in to 1-800-893-9562. And today I'm so excited. This is one of my favorite, favorite people, Catherine McKeels. She is a jewelry designer extraordinaire in everything that she does and I want to welcome you to the show. So welcome. Bonjour. Merci. Welcome. Yes. Bonjour. I love that. I love when you talk to me. I love hearing you. So tell me, who are you? How did you get started? You have fabulous jewelry. I wear it all the time. For anybody who's seen the show, you've seen me wear this jewelry all the time. So I fell in love with Catherine the minute I met her. So tell us. Well, who I am, you know, I'm just a girl. I'm just a girl, a little girl from Belgium and fell in love with jewelry when I was a little girl. I was really, really young when my grandma had a little store and, you know, was doing couture jewelry and went to jewelry school, did the, you know, the usual way to get to gemology and jewelry in a more professional way. Worked in production, worked in the magazine and publishing business for a while, but just in love with working with my hands, just do artisan work. So I started, let's say, officially in Los Angeles 12 years ago. And Los Angeles and California have been very good to me as well as America because I'm now an American citizen. Thankful for it. And my career kind of started 12 years ago and picked up pretty rapidly. And we are here in the center of downtown Los Angeles where I produce my line. So everything is made in America and made with love, passion and compassion. That's so true. So what brought you to Los Angeles? Why did you come to Los Angeles? Why did you come here? And is that where you actually launched or were you doing your jewelry line in Belgium before you came here or somewhere else? You know, I went to school in Antwerp, which is the center, you know, the diamond center of the world and still is. So I studied my craft in Antwerp and in Raffles. And I was doing jewelry as a, you know, just as a passion, but not as a full-time work. And then moved to New York. I've been living in the U.S. for a long time. But I lived in Manhattan. I lived in Manhattan for a while. Didn't feel like the struggle of producing jewelry there was, you know, along my vibe. And then after 9-11, I moved to Los Angeles and I had a back injury. So I was forced to stay in bed, you know, pretty much 12 hours a day besides therapy. And I started sketching jewelry just little by little because I had nothing else I could do. I couldn't be on my legs. You know, I was on crutches. And I found a little workshop. I was working with a beautiful man who's my, you know, let's say my second dad here in downtown Los Angeles and did one little piece and then a second one. And then, you know, went on from there to do a full-time job. That's fantastic. Were you scared? Were you thinking, oh my gosh, I wonder if I can actually make a living doing, making jewelry, designing jewelry? You know, I didn't have time to be scared because I came from a job of, you know, being a producer. I was a photographer for film and for photo shoots and things like that where you're scared all the time because you have huge crews on hand, you have huge budget to manage. And everything from a hurricane to, you know, a loss, anything can happen every minute. So doing jewelry was kind of a peaceful, you know, reconversion. And I didn't have time to get scared because, again, the minute I made a couple of pieces, I had stores like Maxfield in Los Angeles placing orders right away. And Barney... So I was like, oh, that sounds pretty good. Well, of course, down the line, it became a little more, you know, difficult to manage. But no, I didn't have time to get scared. So had you ever thought about, I mean, growing up with your grandmother, you saw she had a shop, you said. So you knew what it was like to go in and work in a shop or have employees or watch her manage that and take care of that. Was she your only mentor in that direction? In terms of being an entrepreneur, per se, especially in this business realm? You know, I come from a family of, depending where, how you look at it, I come from a family of artists. Some people call us gypsy. Some people call us artists. And some people call us all kind of names. But I don't believe we've had any employees in the family ever. I was an employee briefly. But I... But other than that, we've always been, all of us have been entrepreneurs for as many generations I can go back to. And it looks like my sons are going in the same direction. They can't stand, you know, they have this kind of free spirit, rebellious, you know, you can call it whatever you want, against the system. But at the same time, it's not against the system. It's just doing our own thing on our own terms. Right, having that calling. Yeah, so I grew up in a family that was, everybody was their own entrepreneur from early on. So I guess that's where it comes from. That's fantastic. So where do you get your inspiration from? Because I'd like to share your website. It's www.kathrynmichiels.com. And what I, one of the things I just love about your jewelry is it really, it really speaks to me. You have the charms that I could own every single one if I, if my arm would carry the weight. And also... Not that it's that heavy. These charms are not that heavy. But they're just all, they all have tremendous meaning behind each one. And is that the way you started out when you were designing? Was designing a charm or a ring or something, a bracelet that had that particular meaning? Was that already in the very beginning when you first started out? Is that how you did it? Yes. Yes, Jen, it was. It was from day one. Some people have, you know, started business with a business plan with, you know, the way to create a brand, a name, a product and everything. And I happen to be married to a beautiful man who runs a communication agency, ad agency and everything. And I always say I'm the worst client they ever had because I just started with my intuition. And I still follow my intuition every day that, you know, God makes in the universe. And so... I just go with my feelings and with my knowledge of the small wisdom I have in life, the very tiny wisdom I accumulate during my, you know, beautiful life. I just like to share with people. So I just draw. I just get inspiration from usually meeting people, actually, because people said, oh, you know, when I travel here and there. When you travel, what you do, you meet people and you have amazing encounter like my encounter with you. And with people that just generate. And I just a word, you know, I could go and have even to the dentist and they said, oh, wonder and wonder generates a beautiful pendant with a unicorn. Or I can go to the flea market or any anywhere. Anyhow, I meet people and just one word can sparkle. You know, can just go in various direction, whether it's a it's a piece of jewelry or it's a color that I'm going to use in a palette. So everything. Everybody is inspiration. I don't have a particular, you know, but it's mainly linked to my spiritual beliefs, to my yoga practice also. And to to a certain trust I have in humankind in general. Yeah. Well, they're all they're all so beautiful. And you also you one of your signature is to have the not only the beads. Like this. But you also have the silk ribbons. And did you just automatically think this would be a great. Was there a reason behind you making those decisions? The same thing. It comes from from encounters because I spend a bit of time in India and in India when you go to a temple, they tie a little cord around your wrist for good luck. And you win until that cord falls off. And. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I met people along my way would give me charm. So I would give them little, you know, souvenir or particular things that you want to keep with you. And when we start creating those silk ties, they're made in Los Angeles also. And although like everything else in this beautiful globalization, they've been copied in China and everywhere else. Everything we do is made in Los Angeles. And those silk ties are a recognition. People just recognize. And they're like, oh, what's your story? And they're like, oh, what's your story? And you you just literally pile on on the you know, not pile is not a beautiful word, but you you kind of build your own story on those silk ties and you leave them on because you can leave them in the pool in the shower. And it's really it's part of who you are. When you look at your watch, it's the yin and the yang. The watch is what you need to do your obligation. You're you know, you have to be on time. You have to do things. You have to make it happen. And what's on your wrist? Usually wrist. With your charms is the yang, which is the what am I really about? What's my truth? And what is what's my mantra? And what what did I make as a decision for myself? What do I want to do with my life? You can also put a magnet on the fridge, but it's not as sophisticated. Oh, it's not nearly as cool. I mean, I feel like my life has changed since I met you. Just being able to wear wear my my bracelets and and and like you said, it is a story. I mean, each of the charms I have has tremendous. Meaning and it reminds me every day of of what I'm about. So whether one of the charm says let it be or I remember on a particular day you gave me a charm that said simplify or it was simplified. Yeah, it was simplify. And and it was at a life where a time where it just felt like my life was crashing into each other with with so many things on my plate. And it was just those are all very, very beautiful. And and I love that it came from. An intuitive place and a love place and a life experience place rather than thinking, OK, what will sell? And I as long as I've known you, you don't look at what will sell. You look at what literally comes from your heart. That's true. And I think, you know, if you go to business school, they're going to say, look at what sells. Of course. But I think that this is a much bigger level. And I think that's a lesson to do. And some people who are very successful do what you love and the money will follow. My husband always says if you someone told him if you if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. That's exactly that. So absolutely. So I love that. That's your philosophy. And that's how this business was born and and got got started. What were some of the challenges that you had to face? You know, it's it's that I had and I still have to face every day. I just have a very yoga infused and reiki infused mentality about it. But challenges are there every day because the way society works is you have to grow. Successful is only mostly measured as a matter of money where, you know, from a from a different standpoint, you said, well, I believe my future is going to be better. I believe my future is going to be better. I believe my life is successful because I am happy. I can live on my own terms. I can decide what I do every day and I have trust and integrity in my work. But especially in America and again, I'm a thankful citizen. But most of the time people measure success as far as how many millions did you you know, did you racking in sales this year? Right. And whether I wanted or not, we kept going. I have an amazing business partner in Paris. And I also have a beautiful husband who I always told him, I said, we're not going to work together. But every day I kind of pull him in and said, what about this? What do you think about that? So he's my, you know, my my kind of mentor and adviser and, you know, things like that. But we grew organically over the last 12 years. We grew very fast. We sell in 37 countries or something like that. And every time we go to the next step, it needs to be managed. And I don't like to manage. I have to manage. But I like to be. Create. I like to create. And I don't it's not like I don't like people, but I don't like to be in contact, constantly in contact with emails, with text and everything, because otherwise it kind of takes me away from my world. And my world is like, OK, which color was which piece and is that. And if I'm taken away from that because I have to make decision, you know, management decision, I have my design time gets smaller and smaller. And when you start, you know, looking at it. You know, looking in a magnifier for diamonds or things like that, you need to be quiet. You need to be peaceful inside and not thinking, oh, but wait, I have to, you know, all of these things around you. So the challenges are to keep it. At least that's my decision and our decision as you know, as as a board to keep it as at a manageable level where I'm happy with my work and I can still trust that every single piece is made like the one. I wouldn't. Make for Mother's Day with my own little hands and carpal tunnel on my right hand is a big, you know, explanation of that because I work at the bench every day. But if you grow and give the power to other people, which I've done before and hire people that are better at doing what you do than yourself, it's fine. But then it's still your name on the door. But the product loses its essence little by little. And there's examples everywhere. And my choice is to stay. True to to my real message. You know, I think that's important, very important. And to recognize that some of those management things of maybe following up with emails or or billing if someone hasn't paid or things like that, that can be managed, even though everybody wants to talk to you, especially if they started out with you as their main contact. They don't want to let that go. But I agree that it's important for you. To focus on your genius work. And and that's that's the true essence of of who you are, too. And some of those tasks can be managed through others. But but it's understandable that you want to spend that you want to concentrate on the things that that you're very unique at and and and have such a loveliness about it where everything just comes together so so beautifully. So so beautifully. So so beautiful. So so beautiful. So so beautiful. So so beautiful. So so beautiful. That's that's amazing. Did you consciously that you're in and I know that you are international everywhere and I've actually had people come up to me on the street and and recognize your jewelry. So was that did that just happen organically or was there was there marketing efforts made to help grow your company in that manner? Well, I understand we in a show about, you know, entrepreneur. And so I should tell you that I went to marketing school for one year after high school and I was just not into it. I was doing a million of other things. And they told me, you know, I don't think this is for you. That got it. And then five years later, I was running, you know, three magazine for for Philippe Aki group in Belgium. And I was the head of Elle magazine. So I sent a note to the marketing school. I said, you know, sometimes you have to. You know, sometimes you have to. You know, sometimes you have to. You have it or you don't. And sometimes, you know, I should have stayed longer in school. But, you know, here is a free subscription for your wife for Elle magazine. So that was that. And then I took some accounting evening classes also while doing jewelry, because I thought that would be the key to everything. And I still think that I'd love to have some marketing strategy. I'd love to do that. The only thing is that I talk about that with my husband and I just read a going to yoga on the beach with him. And then talk about marketing. That's, you know, a bad side of me. It's like I should just sit down with a pen and a paper. But for the last 12 years, we did grow organically. We had the PR office in Paris for a while. We had one in Japan. We didn't have much in the US because I was lucky enough to work in production before I start jewelry. So the minute I started doing jewelry and I had people said, hey, you know what, I'm doing makeup for so and so, you know, on that set. So in that studio, do you want to stop by and show what you do? So I was hopping in my little car and, you know, going to Universal or going to Paramount on set, which at the beginning was fun and then make you wait for hours and this and that. So it was, you know, I couldn't really do it afterwards. But I was very lucky to have friends in the in the business wanted to buy from me and give it as a, you know, as a token of affection or whatever to whoever, whoever. Comedian. Actress, superstar or so it kind of went like that. And I was not even surprised by it because I used to work with those people. So the big difference between marketing and growing organically is that we never paid anybody to buy to wear my jewelry and never will. And when somebody... You don't have to pay me. Okay, that's good to know. No, I know what you're saying, though. It's like getting a sponsorship or something like that where you get your product out there where people notice it. And I think that's really I love that that's your philosophy. And my mantra for 2015 is really is truth. It's my truth. It sounds very, you know, like a big word, but it's just about that. It's don't pretend, you know, don't pretend that your product is green. If it's not, don't pretend. Stop. You know, everything from the food you eat to everything is just so covered. With a nice shiny layer of what people want you to believe is like what you see is what you get. In my case what I do is what I do. I can tell you exactly how it's made. I work with my own little hands and I don't need to project a glitzy whatever because that's not me. So it's really that. And the message you get when you wear a charm or a bracelet is is made with love. And it's not made to look like something you're not. And I'm not. Absolutely. simple. Well, and not everybody recognizes that. And I even in the beginning of the show where you talked about the fact that in America or society in general says grow, grow, grow and do, do, do and hire more people. And that's a measure of success. But in the end, we have to look at what is what is success for us. And it doesn't look the same for everybody. And it may mean success for us is having that time to go to the beach with your husband and drink some fine wine and toast, toast the new year or whatever it is. That's that's really what it comes down to. And and to be able to do what you're what you're loving every day, that's success. And I agree with that philosophy wholeheartedly. It doesn't have to mean that that you're in, you know, all everywhere, growing, growing, growing, coming up with 10 new designs. Every year. I mean, I know I've talked with jewelers and other designers like, well, I've got to come out with the spring line and I've got to come out with the fall line or whatever. And I love that you're just such a creative person and you're constantly creating and you're honoring that and being truthful to yourself. Thank you. And I like that also that you you do have a word for the year or a mantra that will. And I think this can be an important lesson for entrepreneurs as well is. Is not to get so caught up in everything about what they should do and the way that the business books tell them, but to listen to their heart. And if they have a mantra that helps to keep them going every every day, then that's that's really what's important there. No, and you and you feel it over time, because no matter how you try hard to kind of not listen to to your your instinct and just do what you're supposed to do. And then when you know, you look at yourself like, what's that about? You know, am I just making a nine to five job or am I really sharing what I love? And it's it's two different route and that needs to be accepted. But if you accepted yourself to start with and I felt bad for a while because I thought, oh, you know, I have all those proposals to get much bigger, to go on TV and to do this and to do that. And then I asked my kids, I said, how do you feel about that? And they're like, oh, you know, they were rolling their eyes. I said, you know, what's good for you? And of course, the practice of yoga, of meditation and Reiki helps keep you grounded and said, listen to the little voice inside the good one. Yeah. So your company has grown tremendously in in in a lot of really good ways, the good kind of growth, too. I mean, not only the growth that other people look at and measure and say, wow, look at look at what she's done in 12 years. But you've grown in a lot of different directions. And I think that's one of the things that I really admire as well. One one of your sons produces a line of charms or did at one time. Tell me about that and how that got started and how you encouraged encouraged that and facilitated that. Yes, my son have my sons are proud of the mama, which is always nice. Right. And the youngest one is now 20 years old and six foot tall. But when we lived in Manhattan, he was drawing lines and he was drawing lines and he was drawing lines and he was drawing lines and he was drawing lines and he's drawing lines. And he's drawing lines. And he's drawing lines. And he's drawing you could sell them in Soho because a lot of artists, I said that as a joke really, and he was probably six or seven at the time, he said, I'm going outside. And then he put all his, you know, all his drawings on the sidewalk in Soho and Soho at the time, 13 years ago, was less of a Disneyland than now. And he started selling and he was making money. He was getting cash for his drawings. And then I told him one day, I said, would you like to do a little pen tent with that? Because your robot is really cool. He's wearing Converse and everything. He's a cool looking, you know, little robot. So we did the pen tent and we sold a ton because in Japan he has like a cult following. And then one day he was studying in London two years ago and he says, you know, I have this idea of a compass with a ring and something. I said, well, let's do a collaboration. You're my guest artist for this season. So he produced two or three pieces so far. And we collaborate together also on the line of scars where he does all the graphic design with me. Well, that's the other thing. The other thing that I wanted to mention as well is so you've definitely gone from having your charms to having amazing necklaces and rings. And well, I mean, you had rings in the beginning too. But you've grown it past a point of doing just the jewelry. You created a line of scarves in the last two years. Yes. And what was the idea behind launching the scarf line? The idea behind launching the scarves is very, it cannot sound so, you know, so elitist or whatever the word would be. The fact is that when I don't find something in a store, I just wanted to make it myself, which also gave opportunity of terrible knitting experiment and crochet experiment that are just devastatingly, you know, not so great. But I wear scarves every day. I always wear scarves. I always have something, you know, wrapped around my neck at any season. And because you travel a lot with the AC and the airplanes, I always have scarves. I have a ton of scarves. And then I just started like, well, how about I design my own because I've been collecting vintage fabric and, you know, a lot of paintings. I do, I've been going to flea markets since I was probably much nine years old. So I have scrap of papers and ribbons and photos. And, and I, I keep them in boxes and I'm thinking, well, if I want to share it with my friends, what do I do? I might pin them on the wall or how do I do that? So I just combined the idea of all this collection of images over the years in fabric and scarves. And so we just launched scarf line, but it's also, it's not a line. It's just encounters. You know, one season I can be meeting with a painter, a friend of mine in the South of France and photograph her canvas on a wall where the background is, you know, the background is the canvas. And I'm like, well, the background on the wall is seventies, you know, wallpaper that I love and mix them together. And then another time is, is another artist who does Indigo fabric in Topanga and work with her and make another fabric, you know, for, for scarves. So it's, it's also about encounters. It's not really a strategy in place. Right. Right. Right. And do, are those made in, are those made in Los Angeles as well? I wish, I wish they could, as much as I can, everything is produced here, but in the, in the fact that for the scarves, I tried to produce in Italy, love Italy, love the Italians, but they couldn't work with me. The price were skyrocketing. And I just remembered two years ago that my grandfather, who was a cinematographer used to travel a lot and he met people all over the planet that we have the same last name because I use my maiden name. So I remember this little artisan in New Delhi who had really a block printing shop and I contacted him. And his grandson still is in business on printing on cashmere and micro modal, which is a natural fiber. So I now work with the grandson of my grandfather's friend. So it's kind of stays in the family. And so it's designed in Los Angeles, it's produced in New Delhi. And then we support on, you know, on, on the, on a small scale, but you know, within our abilities, a, an orphanage in Jaipur, where I used to work with, you know, with girls. And so we send them money with each collection. We send a little check of, you know, whatever we can do with help to help them. I love that story. And that's why I wanted to, to mention it because I think it's just so it, it, it, it's different than finding someone where you finding a place where you can just mass produce something and, uh, and maybe get it cheaper, but to be able to, to tie it back to this is someone who knew your grandfather and, and, and now the grandchildren are working. Uh, working together and, and, uh, or the, or the children are working together. I think that's, that's just beautiful. And, uh, to be able to help give back in any kind of way is big and, and major. And so I think it's just, uh, a great, great thing. What's, what's coming up next? What, what, like, I mean, how do you, how do you turn off? Um, you know, I, I don't think, I mean, meditation and yoga makes me turn it off. That's a, that's a really good thing. That's where I really kind of, it slows down the brain, you know, activity so much in a good way that I'm, I'm forced to, to turn it off, which is great. But then the minute I'm done with practice, it's kind of an on, off button. And it's like, oh, I have to write down the color of, um, masala powder that I want to use for this, for that. So it's back on. And what's next is, I don't know. I don't know. It can be, anything and everything. It can, I'm on a, I'm on a handbag project. That's more of a, of a, of something to carry your, your sacred, you know, stones and things like that. I have this, you know, hippie side that I was born with, you know, way back when. So I cannot, it's not because it's fashionable. It's just, you know, I was raised like that. So, um, it's kind of a, of a, a travel altar. That's also a bag. So that's one project that I have. And, do you have bags now too? No, I did, I did limited edition in the past that were produced in Los Angeles also, you know, all, all the hand stone and everything. But, um, no, it depends on what I find on my path that, that will generate an idea. And then going back to, uh, candles also, I have, uh, I have my own personal scent that I created. And so we're going to develop, um, the, the candles are going to be made here in Los Angeles as well, because they used to be made in France. And the, the shipping and everything is ridiculous. Right. It's like, why would you have to, to send them all across the world? So they will be produced in Los Angeles as well. And the project also is a either a perfume or a scented dry body oil with the same scent as the candle. Mm. That sounds great. I remember I came into your, uh, your, your studio one day and, and all of the, uh, the women that were working, including yourself on, on making the, stringing the, the beads and everything. And you had all the candles going. And I think that's something, it just made the workplace just seemed so calm and, and lovely. It was like, oh, I just want to sit in here and hang out with you all. And, uh, I think that's something that, uh, it might be something that people don't necessarily focus on in terms of their workspace and making that lovely. Uh, whether it's through design, or whether it's lighting candles and, and, and having that atmosphere, uh, encourage the creativity, encourage peacefulness during the workflow. Uh, I thought that was a really, it, it stuck with me. I, I haven't forgotten that. It's a, it's a subtle balance because on one end, you want to make sure, uh, that you have a, a really good, um, mix of, you need to have music. It doesn't have to be the Bee Gees or something crazy because then people start dancing and they're not really working. It can, it cannot be constant mantra because otherwise they kind of go into a vibe that's a little too slow and too meditative. And the candle, same thing. You can have some candles and, but mainly is the, it's people's energy. The, the people you put together to work, to represent your name, to work with you, to manufacture what you do. They have to understand what your philosophy is. They have to, to understand what your criteria is for putting an amazing product on the table is they have to respect that. And they have, I've, at least in my case, they cannot be angry with life. I cannot have people with negative energy around me. That's my most luxurious, um, thing in life is to be, to allow myself to surround, to be surrounded with people that are happy to be alive, thankful, and just happy to get, you know, to get up in the morning. You can have up and downs. Everybody does. But the, the angry with life or the agitated people, I cannot deal with it. And the more, you know, the more I grew up, the less I can. So, so the candles, the music, the ethics of work and a good mix of people who have respect, who address each other with certain manners. You know, I was brought up by in a family where you said, yes, please, thank you. And you don't bark at people. So when you make a beautiful, uh, spiritual calm product, you cannot be agitated making it, you know, it's definitely not be in sync, right? Exactly. When people cook and, and they rush the meal or they just chop the vegetable and everything. And you can, you can see in your plate, it doesn't, you don't feel, you know, the same way. And it's the same thing for everything you do. If you don't put your, your, your heart and soul into it and really engage in a positive, fruitful way to work, then stay at home and don't bother other people. That, that's the way you want to work. Like that. That's so great. But, um, that's important. And I, I like what you said. I mean, of course, obviously it makes sense when you're creating this product that is, uh, spiritual and, and all about thoughtfulness and, and caring and, and being present and, and all of those things and not have that agitation or anger. But imagine if we created a movement, um, whether you, whether you're creating or not, whether it's food or, or, or like I said, you can't, can't do that either. It's going to really end up tasting bad. Um, but imagine if, if everyone created that kind of environment for whatever it is that they're doing. And I would imagine that productivity and, and, uh, job satisfaction and, and, or career satisfaction and everything would, would go up tremendously. You know, they do actually, but perhaps not necessarily to the full extent of what's going to happen to our people because perhaps not to the full extent of what's going to happen to our people. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. intention altogether. And then you go to places like I now live, I used to live downtown and I live in Venice Beach. And you can see people that are acting differently, the way they drive, the way they, you know, the way they relate to each other. And then you go to a place like Ohio, where I spend a lot of time, which is, you know, the healing valley, the sacred valley, and it has that name for a reason. And then you find a whole part of humanity there that decide to work and live differently. And they live at their own pace and they chop the vegetable at their own pace too. And if you get there and be all, you know, aggressive or nervous or something, they look at you like, sure. And then your whole being just slows down to where it's really pleasant to function, you know, and you can do that wherever you want. Because I used to live in Paris, I used to live in Manhattan, I used to live in many places. And you carry it with you like a little bubble. You know, you have this bubble. And then you meet other people with the same, you know, the same decision. And they all merge together and said, oh, cool. And it's your choice to interact or to tell people to put really your hand in front of you and say, stop. When you have people with negative vibes or with people that are just not aware in a way, it's like, I cannot have that near me because you're impairing my ability to function in a mellow way. Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. I like that visual of putting your hand up and saying stop. And I remembered one of the other charms that you that I got was slow life. Love that. Love that line, slow life. So is there a piece of advice that you got early on that really helped you to be where you are right now? You know, I had so many. I had so many. It's a little bit like when you're pregnant, everybody gives you advice about everything. And then when you, you know, anything that happens to you, you said, oh, but watch out because, you know, so I'm not sure I was always listening, you know, and my parents kind of let me do whatever I felt was right for me. So I didn't get much guidance from from on the parent side, I kind of pretty much raised myself. I think I get more more advice from my own sons to say, hey, you're doing good. You know, you're good. You're doing good. Just keep on doing what you're doing. If you're happy, just be happy. Well, I like that they told you that you knew what was you knew what was best. Yeah. Whenever you asked him about growing your business and going on TV. And I think that's something that really that is great advice. We can all learn. We have we're a little bit older and we have we have wisdom that we can share. But I think. I think that our youth has tremendous wisdom to share, too. And they look at it with fresh eyes. And and so I think that's. And no filter. Yeah. You know, I mean, my sons are not embarrassed. They just give it to me the way it is. It's like, yeah, you're happy right now. And I was like, have you lost your mind? Yeah, exactly. What are you doing? Why are you running? And it's like in your face and it's like, no, it's not pretty, especially with boys. It's not wrapped in candy wrapper. It's like they give it to you straight up. Yeah. Which is great. I think that's important. I if you had a collaborator other than your sons, who would that be? Who who inspires you out out there that. You know, we have a friend. We have a couple of friends and his name is David Weinstein and Denise Weinstein. They're a couple of friends. And it's very funny because they look like my husband and I. He has white hair. She has kind of reddish hair. So we like it, you know, twins going on a double date. It's really bizarre. And they have a brand called CP Shades. It's made in Sausalito, so made in California. They've been in business for way longer than me. They have much more experience, wisdom and everything else. And we were laughing about the fact that the new word is makers. We are all makers, which is pretty much, I guess, a synonym for artisan or things like that. But I like to collaborate with people who have a vision like they have. Like I wear their their clothes. I like to collaborate with people who have a vision like they have. Like I wear their their clothes every single day. That's pretty much the only thing I wear. And they wear my jewelry every day. So when you meet people like that, it also doesn't come from how much can we sell but how can we merge and have this vision together because we're so attuned. So I would love to have a collaboration with them. I love to have collaboration with pretty much any Japanese artist because I have a passion for Japan and I love to I love everything about Japan. I love everything about Japan. Let me put it this way. Everything about Japan. I've been staying there for 12 years and I just, I could go there every day. I just really, really, really love Japan. The culture, the respect they have for artists also. So any collaboration with any Japanese artist would be fantastic. And other than that, everything that comes my way would be, you know, you, for example. I love your giraffe and I want to do something with you. That's, you know. That can happen. Okay. I'm sorry to surprise you with that, but I just thought, you know, I know that I wrote it that somewhere that I want to do something with you. That sounds great. I wasn't expecting that. So, okay. I know. So now you've got me a little befuddled. Okay. So what do I do now? Or what do I ask now? Was there ever a time that you just, sometimes the entrepreneurs don't fully own it. They feel like frauds. And especially, I think, artists sometimes feel that way because it's so personal. Was there ever a time where you felt that way? And if so, what happened to cause you to own it? What caused me to own it is growing. I'm growing up every day. Not too much, just enough. But it's about letting go, let it be. And I kind of, I had my sons when I was 26 and 29. So that's, I'm very, I wouldn't say proud, but that's kind of, I love that I made children, that I made human being, you know, with a father. That was pretty good. That was pretty good. And my work is my passion. So I never had an ego, you know, disproportionate ego in my work. It's like, you like it, great. You just want to do it. You just want to do it. You just want to do it. If you don't like it, it's fine too. But I never had a sense of importance. And it's usually people coming to me and says, do you know that you sold in Kazakhstan and in da da da in those countries? And I was like, that's great. But I have a, it's not a disconnect, but it's a certain, I think it's a healthy distance. Buddhists would call it detachment, where I'm very invested in what I do. I take my work very seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. So I work with, you know, dedication and integrity, but I own it because, because I like what I do, but I don't have a sense of importance. And maybe I should, but I think it's too late now. As far as I'm doing my thing. I'm an artist, you know, I'm just a girl and I'm playing with colors and I'm just happy doing it. And if people love it and if that, you know, may help make me a living, that's fantastic. Yeah. But I don't have an overblown sense of ego. Yeah. I think. You tell me. No, you, you have no, you almost have no ego. And what I was meaning is that that's, I love the way you put that. And that's super, super important. But sometimes people, I'm thinking more of, they don't feel legitimate in terms of what they're doing. And whether they're an actor, whether they're a business person, like they have a hard time calling themselves an entrepreneur or they have a hard time saying I'm an artist or, you know, they think of it as, like maybe it's just still a hobby or, or even though they may be very successful with, with having many stores or selling in many countries or all of that kind of thing. And so that was what I was kind of referring to. But in a way you've owned, you've always owned it, is what you're saying. And yes and no, because you have your up and downs, like everybody, you know, you wake up, it's more, it's Monday and you're just like, oh, I have to deal with, you know, I have three conference calls back to back and I have this and I have that. And you rather stay in your sandbox and play with your, you know, with your thing. And, and you just like, you have to be a grown up. You have to step up to the plate and just like, well, I have to do this, I have to do that. And, and, you know, the bookkeeper is waiting for this and the management is like, it's constant bombarding of a lot of things. So you kind of have to own it in a way because I met Diane von Fristenberg a few years ago in Los Angeles and she's Belgian and I'm Belgian. So we start, you know, chatting in French and her aura, her presence is of course magnificent. I just finished her book. I read a lot of, you know, women's biography and, and she told me, she, she put her hand on, on, on, on my knee and she said, . She said, my head is always in the driver's seat of your company, of your life, of everything. And I was like, . Okay. You know? And when I read her book now, it was so, I mean, I don't wear particularly her fashion or whatever, but I always admired her as a woman. And now I'm looking at what she does. It's like, you would think that it was all easy and flowing for her. It was anything but that. So I loved reading her book and I remember, I always remember, stay in the driver's seat. Yeah, that's a great line. I'm going to remember it. remember that too. We're going to write that down. I am. But it is, it's really important. Was there a failure that you had? Anything that you wished you hadn't done? How many? With regard to the business that you learned from? Yeah, we talk about the business. I mean, you know, you can wake up one morning and says, my total, you know, my total existence is just one big failure. And then you wake up the next morning or you go to two hours of yoga practice and you said, I am a luminous being. So it depends on which day, you know, which day you decide. But failure as far as business, nothing major, I would say, nothing major. No, nothing major. Little things, little hiccups. But I just go from the idea that I make decision and then I live with no regrets. And if I made, a mistake, I go to the person and said, hey, what can we do to fix it? So I don't like to keep things inside. I don't like to ruminate or keep things, you know, boiling or anything. So I rather fix things. No, I think that's such a great philosophy. And I love what I hear you keep coming back to is just how important your practice of yoga and Reiki and meditation, how beneficial that is to just helping, to keep you grounded and helping to keep you centered. And when something does start to escalate, it allows you to come back down to center and say, okay, all right, let me redirect this. And it's important for business owners, I think, to take a step back, to stop, to stop sometimes and say, okay, is this working? Why is this working? What do I, do I feel good about it? Even if it is working, even, even if it is like bigger than life, do you feel good about it? Are you happy about it? Is this true to who I am? And, and so I, I think that's such an important message that has been coming through in our interview that I continually hear you, you reflect back to. What's, what's really important. And that's something I really want to share. And I always share it with, with people that I meet is that you have to be still to, to take time to, to be still before you crash, because so many people, and I'm one of them crash when physically you have something that gives up on you and said, Hey, don't you listen? Don't you ever listen to your, you know, instinct, trust your instinct. Don't you ever listen? Well, guess what? I'm going to put you to a stop. So you need to think when I had that back injury 12 years ago, I was just traveling. I was, it was ridiculous. I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, my schedule was ridiculous. And I had a back injury that put me flat on my back. And I was like, Hello, you need to change things in your life. And now a month ago, I had carpal tunnel on my right arm, and left hand, but I work with both hands. And I've been excruciating pen was like, hold on. Does that mean take it off my hands? Or does that mean hands on? What does that mean? So why did I I have to wait until I hit the carpal tunnel, which is extremely painful to say, hey, I need to make some changes here and there. And most people you talk to have the same thing. You know, I broke my foot a few years ago in Paris, twist and turn those lives. You know, I needed to take a different direction. I broke my foot. I said, I don't need to hurt myself every time to get the message, you know, pursuit of wisdom. Are you sure? I'm still working on it. I'm not dead, but I'm still working on it. And my husband laughs. He's like, do you need to put yourself through this? It's like, no, I don't. So I'm trying. And when I say I meditate and do yoga, it's like, you know, it's like when Sting was doing, he was saying that he was making love with his wife for eight hours. And then he revised the interview. He says, well, it takes me six hours to convince her, then take one hour to go to the restaurant and what's left is 30 minutes, right? So when I say I meditate, it's not like I'm sitting Zazen in the studio five hours a day. I'm like everybody else. I try to crunch up, you know, five minutes or 20 minutes. And then I still have thoughts in my mind that are like going like spaceships in my mind. Like, did I call the things for the tax for the 1099? And so, you know, I'm trying. Let me put it this way. I'm trying to practice yoga. And I do. I'm trying to meditate. I'm trying a lot of things that doesn't mean I'm the perfection of, you know, stillness ever, but a little bit. Yeah, no, well, it is. I think it's great. It's a great message that you've given me. And I have to admit, I did wonder, like, I've tried meditation and I'm not even, I mean, I can't even go five seconds yet. So that's something for 2015. But I was thinking with you, I know that you just, there's so much creativity in you. I've never met anyone who's as creative as you. And it's like, how does she stop her? I mean, I'm trying to meditate for 10 minutes or five minutes. Yoga is really the key. Before even meditation is yoga, you go into deep yoga in yin yoga. I have an amazing teacher. Her name is Denise Kaufman that I follow at Excel in Venice. You do two hours of yin yoga with her. And after that, it's like, you know, you just, you're so exhausted. You can't think of anything. It's good exhaustion. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, on a Monday at 7.30pm at night, you can either crush in front of TV. And that's really not my, that's not my recommendation. And then your brain goes every single direction, but a good one. Or you go there and it slows down everything that's going on in your mind. It's like, it's like medicine. It's the best medicine, you know. So when you're 20, you can down a half bottle of wine or go out or do whatever drugs you want to. You do two hours of yin yoga and you're just like in a space that's, you know. Well, you definitely live your truth. And I've seen that throughout all of the years that I've known you. And I think that's really, really important. Yeah. And it's definitely inspirational. Is there something that if someone came to you and they said is, you know, like one piece of advice that you could give them of launching their business? I'm thinking about doing something. What would you say? I would say don't do what I did. I would say don't do what I did. You know, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, I have some, some friends, some people who really care. Some people really love you will always tell you, you know, hey, if you don't have kids that are in the age to tell you, what are you doing right now? What's up with that? What's up with this? You know, it's kind of reality check to have good friends that are honest and always be a reality check for many things. I say, hey, are you still following your path here? Are you, you know, just a little wake up call here and there. That's important. And yeah, do a business plan. Please do a business plan because I still haven't done mine. So why do you recommend that though? Because I'm supposed to say that, Jan. I'm supposed to say that on an entrepreneur show. I'm supposed to say that you need to have guidelines. You need to, you know, I also read the book from Zina Musica, who did Gypsy Tea, who just started out of nowhere and was, you know, is huge success, hugely successful. So all those people that say same things, hey, I trust my instinct. I did this, I did that. Same thing with me. I said, hey, I trust my instinct. I did this, I did that. She never did a business plan until it was way, way, you know, near catastrophe and everything. So no structure built from a good structure, but don't create something that doesn't exist. If you follow your instinct, if you don't create something you have in your mind that you love and, you know, money follows enrollment and money follows passion. But if you put it the opposite way, I think that era is coming to an end. Just money for the sake of making money. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. think that's the goal and I don't I think the days are counted of these kind of things the new paradigm is completely different I agree so do you think that if you had written a business plan your business would be where it is today I don't know I don't know I don't want to be you know I don't want to I don't know and I'm not I'm not promoting I'm not pushing it one way or another at this you're not promoting gypsy living and organic growing you know what I I definitely think it's great to have some sort of plan I don't think it has to be formal but it depends on on what it is that you're you're going after and I think that many people say if they had written a business plan they would have probably never launched their business because on paper it didn't necessarily it didn't look like it would succeed and a business plan is not necessarily a crystal ball and I think if you can write a plan and use it simply as a guideline and it helps you to get more clear about something then that's really good but if you use it as a bible and you say this is it's either this way or no way and you don't allow that creative element to come into it I'm recognizing well if this doesn't work then I'll tweak it here and I'll tweak it there and and let me try this and yeah see what happens um then you know it's it allows for a little bit more flexibility obviously flexibility is the is the key word for sure and partnership also because either you this you know lonely starving artist and you don't want to talk to anybody and you just want to paint with your blood on cardboard and doesn't that if you're an artist that actually commercialized their product partnership is the key is to find the right ingredients the right people you collaborate with that you can exchange and I've I'm very lucky to be surrounded with amazing people that are giving their time advice and wisdom that I don't have and that's very you know that that comes together for that so that's that that was a big you know a big change in my life when I had people that say hey I want to do this with you yeah and being open I think that's really important too to be open to that to not only find those people and and just being open that not being um uh what's the word scared yeah but is it we have to wrap up we're done we can't we can't talk anymore so thank you thank you so much thank you I got the eye of the tiger the fighter dancing through the fire cause I am a champion and you're gonna hear me roar