Microaggressions with Dr. Lavonda Mickens-Brahm

hello this is julianne good and you are listening to psych one-on-one we are here to make psychology more understandable with tips for you and your family and friends to make your life a little bit easier tonight i am having dr lavanda mickens brahm on again thank you so much for returning i am thrilled to have you on how are you i'm great thank you thank you for having me it's good to be back and tonight we are going to be talking about microaggression but first of all i would like to thank you for joining us today like dr brahm to talk about um her background a little bit so everybody knows where you're coming from okay okay okay great so obviously my name is dr brahm i'm a licensed clinical psychologist i spent a great amount of years working with substance abusing populations as well as individuals who are struggling with ptsd in various parts of the country including southern california detroit michigan new orleans louisiana um i would say i also like working with people on their relationships i'm currently a marriage and family professor at the chicago school of professional psychology so it's very important to me to help people understand themselves and understand themselves in the way they relate to others and most recently one of the things i've been interested in is how cultural diversity is played out in the therapy relationship right and what is exactly microaggression it's a funny word huh it's yeah it's one it's something that um never left my mind so i'll tell you um i first discovered the term microaggressions about two years ago when i was teaching a psychotherapy and cultural diversity class and i go whoa what is that you know it's it's um i think it's kind of a seductive or provocative word that you think what is an aggression what is a microaggression um so defined quick quickly it's a brief everyday exchange that has a denigrating message to a target group so some target groups you might we might be thinking of are often minority groups ethnic minorities such as african-american latino asian women would be a target of microaggressions lesbian gay bisexual trans transgender individuals would be a target of microaggression and i like to think of them as um many isms so if racism is a thing and sexism is a thing then a microaggression is like, it's not always an act, but these are little words that kind of invalidate the person or invalidate their experience. So it's not overt, it is covert. Often very covert. I mean, there are versions that could be much more overt than others, but often very covert. And I have a couple of examples that might be helpful to illustrate that. That would be good because I'm sure a lot of people are still going, I don't quite get it yet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the first microaggression, let's see, many years ago, many moons ago, I was in graduate school and this was a doctoral level program in the Midwest. And I was sitting with about eight other students who were also doctoral students and we were all very new. And we all spent time in the classroom talking. Immediately after that lecture, one of the students said, I'm going to talk to you about this. And one of the students came up to me and this student was a white male. I'm an African American female. The student came up to me and said, oh, you're really smart. So I didn't quite know what to do with that. Right. Yeah. How did you take that? I mean, there's one of several ways that one could react to that. How did you react? First of all, I felt very confused by it because I wasn't sure what was going on. I was like, I'm going to talk to you about this. And I was like, what is happening or what I could be reacting to? And I thought the first thing that I thought was, well, I'm also a doctoral student like you. So I wonder why it would be surprising for this person that I would have something smart to say. And then I immediately went to what are the groups that I might not have been represented that might not have been represented as a doctoral level student before in the past. And this person saying me. So woman is one. Right. Are they saying, wow, you're really smart because I'm a woman. And maybe. In their minds, doctor or doctoral level individuals are likely to be males. The other thought was that I'm also African-American. So was he responding to the fact that maybe he didn't have the experience with African-Americans as being really smart? But, you know, I don't want to make make it seem like this person was a horrible person, but I don't think he realized that what he was saying to me could be interpreted as kind of offensive. Like, oh, it's surprising to me that you're really smart. It's like, I'm not a person off the street. I'm in the same doctoral level class as you are. It was really interesting. So how did you react to him then? I felt I'm pretty sure I said thank you and like laughed. And I kind of kept to be honest through the rest of the program, I kind of kept a side eye at the person like, I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe he's expecting me to be beneath him. So I did. Well, I didn't play into that. I also thought, well, I'm just going to be kind of careful around this person because I'm not really sure what his what his expectations of me are. I kind of I remember it as an experience that I didn't know how to place. But now that I know the word, I feel like that's exactly what that is. Right. And then you probably never really exactly found out why he had made that comment, because, you know, when you get microaggressions thrown at you like that, first of all, I think there's probably something in in, most of us that like you had that reaction, like it was almost kind of a mini shock, like, I don't know exactly how to take this. Yeah. So you kind of in a course with being a psychology student, you're you're trying to look at all the different realms that this could possibly be coming from. Or, you know, or maybe you were thinking of something else. I mean, it just there's so many ways to interpret a message like that. That's right. That's right. There are so many interesting things that I've heard. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. So there are so many interesting messages that we have for people. I mean, from a psychology perspective. One of the big things that comes to my mind is what we do with gender, right? So there's kind of, I have a lot of women friends who are like, serious professionals and awesome. Many who are engineers are in the hard sciences. And so they tell me often that, oh, I'm the only person that works on this floor or only the only person that works within a team of, you know, 30 engineers. And so I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. I think of how come she's here? Oh, women are good at math. So that that actually did have another experience like that with a different male who also happened to be white in graduate school. We were taking a stats class. All of us had taken a stats test and most people had bombed the test. So, you know, we get our grades back. He looks at his exam and he's like, oh, whatever. And then I look at mine and he looks at me while I'm looking at mine and I turned it over. And so I'm like, I don't want to be embarrassed. But I remember him actually trying to console me and saying, oh, it's okay. I know you didn't do well. It's all right. We all in the truth is like a lot of the class, I guess, had struggled with that exam and I struggled with it. It was challenging for me. But the irony of the situation is that I actually did very well on that exam. And he was trying to console me because he just assumed that because he did poorly, of course, maybe this woman didn't do very well on that. Or maybe this, you know, black woman didn't do well on that. Who knows what was in his mind, but it was really interesting. Well, maybe it was a deflection of him being embarrassed and not feeling real secure about what he had done. So he's going to deflect it off onto you. And I mean, how many times does that really happen? Where the person does not want to own that embarrassment or guilt or whatever, whatever feelings that they're struggling with. So they deflect it off into doing microaggression. Oh my gosh, that is probably one of the largest bases of projection, right? So in psychology, we talk about projection and displacement all the time, meaning that the person feels, as this young man could have, very uncomfortable about who they are and what they're doing or what their experience has been. And so I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how we see how So I've noticed that maybe, you know, especially if you're working with a couple, I noticed that you talk to your husband or your wife like this. So you're trying to put them in a one down position and those microaggressions come through. It's not that they're throwing insults right into their faces. It's just many things that start eroding the relationship. Right. Right. So recently I was at a conference with a researcher, I believe he's at Columbia named Daryl Wing Sue. And I know his name because he wrote the book that I first used to teach the class. Oh, yeah. Sue and Sue. We can't forget that book. Nobody can forget Sue and Sue. So he was actually the guest. He was one of the main lecturers at the event. And he was talking about what he said was so true. It rings so true for me. It's like, the show is about to start. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, the straw that broke the camel's back. You know, if somebody says these little slights once in a while, we all can learn to develop a thick skin and be okay. Oh, whatever. You thought I wasn't smart or you thought I couldn't do math or whatever. Or speak, you know, good English, which which is something he actually says that people say that to him as an Asian man all the time. You speak such good English. And he was born and raised here, you know. So he says it's like the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe one little incident is okay. But after you go through this 1000 times in a day, sooner or later, it's going to get old. Right. And then and then what does the receiver of those messages start feeling and dealing with those and they start piling up? I mean, I mean, they start piling up. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. It's a catch. receiver of the message is placed in a position to respond and not respond. So clearly, if you respond, you're sticking up for yourself and saying, Hey, I don't really think it was fair that you just said I'm smart. Why wouldn't you assume that I'm smart? Okay. So that's, that's pretty fair. But on the other hand, the receiver comes off as touchy, sensitive, you know, can't take a joke or can't talk about anything. You know, if I said something back to the male, he might have had a he might have felt like he was being a little bit too much of a joke. But he's might have had a he might have felt he had the right to say, Well, I was just saying I was just giving you a compliment. So you're placed in the middle of kind of responding. It's it's actually really interesting. I think that's one of the trickiest things about being the recipient of a microaggression. Because you start feeling you know, like the C word, you start feeling a little crazy. Am I? Am I actually crazy? Or did that mean something? Did it mean more than I thought? Well, how come I feel this way? Right, exactly. I know. I if our listeners would like to join in on this conversation, the number is 800-893-9562. Again, it's 800-893-9562. Again, we're talking about microaggressions. And what we probably all go through to a certain extent, depending, you know, on which group we feel that we are a part of. I've got a good little story about microaggression. And I'm right now working a silly part time job until I find, you know, some more counseling work. So I'm working in a parking lot in the afternoon, all I'm doing is taking money, giving tickets out. That's it. And it's at a hospital. So and in talking about doing behavioral therapy every day, I do that because sometimes people are very distraught. They're, you know, anxious. And I said, I'm trying to talk to them a little bit. But, it's interesting, some people that roll up assume that I have a low IQ, and they will talk to me like that. And that's right. That just blows me away. And I'm just part of me is going, Okay, I really want to say something really intelligent back to them, you know, versus, you know, like today, it happened to me today. And all I could do is sit there and laugh at the woman like if you only knew the IQ that I have. Yeah, you know, You wouldn't sit there and treat me like this. Graduate level degree and I could probably help you actually. Let's talk about the ego problem you're having right now, shall we? Yeah, that's interesting. That's a perfect example because you would be in the target group and someone would assume, oh, well, this person's not bright because they're working here and clearly that means X. Not necessarily. Not necessarily either. Quick judgment about a person. Exactly. And you look at the displacements that people have gone through in management levels. And all of a sudden now they're parking a lot of tenants, working at 7-Eleven, working at who knows what just to make ends meet until they can get themselves back in the job market again. Because we're not quite back in that upward scale yet. So, you know, I guess one of the lessons to learn here is don't assume that the person in front of you has less of intelligence as you do. Just try to treat everybody as equal as possible because you never know when you're going to be having that kind of energy, you know, thrown back at you for whatever reason. That's right. That's right. You never know. And I think, you know, I would agree with you that not assuming is important and asking questions. And like, it's really okay to ask questions about someone's difference or something that you perceive to be different or who they are. Whereas a person, rather than saying, oh, I'm shocked because you don't fit my mold of what a parking attendant is or what a Hispanic person is, a black person, a woman, someone who's lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender. Those things are really important to make sure we open our eyes and ask questions. Exactly. And just be open and, you know, learning to communicate those without, you know, asking out of curiosity. I, you know, you had done some writing in here about curiosity. It's natural. It's natural to be curious. Yeah. What makes you different from me? Or what is it that possibly is making me a little bit nervous about you being in front of me? That's right. You know, what's triggering that off inside of me? I think if we said that to each other, exactly what you just said, what is making me feel nervous about being with you right now? Yeah. We would be in a much better position. Instead, people are uncomfortable with being nervous and they just blurt out whatever. Or just... Or just shut down. Or just totally ignore you. Yeah. Shut down, ignore you. Yeah. Shut down, walk away. Oh, this makes me nervous. I don't think I want to deal with this. Instead of going the next step, taking a deep breath and asking that question. That's right. You know, just, you know, and, you know, the deep breathing I think is really important. That's one of those things that I lecture about. Deep breathing? Yes. Oh, you should lecture me. I should deep breathe much more. I catch myself not breathing as long as I should. So I will take that lesson home for sure. Okay. We'll talk about that. Doing belly breathing like a child. Very important. Good stuff. Yes. So let's talk about colorblind racism. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I love this topic. So I wouldn't say that there aren't any people in the world who are colorblind. Right. But I will speak from the minority perspective and share with you some of the things that I've heard, especially over the last five, six years. And I say five or six years because that's the amount of time we've had a black president. So these are my favorites. We're not racist anymore in America. We have a black president. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think, and people have genuinely said that to me. Well, don't you think, you know, we're not racist? Right. We're not racist. You know, like we used to be since we have a black president. I have to say that when President Obama was elected, I was hopeful about that, that things would change. But I know the history of this nation. I mean, we were built on slavery and built on lots of things. But that's one of the things that is a unique part of our history. So it means it takes some time for us to grow through that. I have to say also that it's really important to not ignore cultural difference because I think that's important. I think that's exactly what makes us strong. So in our attempts to go, oh, well, race is important. Race isn't important. Well, then you're sort of like the phrase is like throw the baby out with the bathwater. You're ignoring what actually makes America, America and some of our greatness that we have so many different cultural groups and can live together. Right. Or at least can try to live together. And that aside, you know, like the whole birthing movement for President Obama and all of this stuff, this like pretty much goes to show that people. Still care about race in America. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I mean, it was a tiny step, but I know to just assume that that we're not racist anymore because we elected a black president. I mean, that's just silliness. Yeah. I mean, because, well, especially in certain in certain sections of the country. I mean, racism is still alive, very alive. I mean, we hear about it every day in the news. It's just, you know, luckily in Southern California. I mean, this is definitely one of the huge melting pots of the country. So that's one of the reasons why I decided to move back here, because I was raised in a really, really white area of the country and a lot of bigotry and racism and growing up and listening to my father bigot all over the place. And I was like, I've never heard that phrase bigot all over the place. I just made it. That's a good one. Thank you. We can do all sorts of things all over the place. Yeah. So I think it's, you know, it's a term to be careful of colorblind racism. It's sort of like I'm not there really is there such a thing as colorblind. I mean, a baby can tell the difference. A baby can tell the difference. And it doesn't mean that one race is better than the other or that we should always be stuck in racism. But we got a long way to go before we become colorblind in this country. If at all, that should be the goal. I actually don't think it should be the goal. So what can a person do to start working through being colorblind racist? Deal with the discomfort. So what I mean by that is it's natural for human beings, human nature, myself included, to want things to be smooth and easy. And it's actually kind of adaptive. We want to live longer. We want more peace. We want our blood pressure to be low. We just want we want to function well for a very long time. So in order to do that, we start suppressing what's actually real and suppressing feelings and suppressing thoughts. And I think that what we could do is decide to trust ourselves and dig through what we really feel about each other and continue to push and push and push it. I mean, listen, it's not for the weak, right? So pushing through to get better at being a human being is not something that is the grain. I recognize that for many of us, that feels like going against the grain because it is it's harder. It's harder to push through. But what I'm suggesting is that there's there's growth and there's maybe not a utopia, but there's a pretty real, real self-fulfillment on the other side. So if you can push through it, like if you can stand, it's like, you know, a really rough workout. Yeah. If you can stand the workout, most of the time you like the results where we need like a racism workout. I like that. Yeah. Maybe you can like write. Write it down. I just see all of these great ideas from from Psych 101. I just thought of that right now. A racism workout. Let's do it. I love that. And just get make one of those little books that you can fit into your purse. That would be great. I love that. That's good. Yeah. How to work out your racism. Ask a question. Yeah, exactly. Where are you from? How are you doing today? What do you like to do as a person? Just treat treat every person like a person. Right. Not the color that you see or the gender that you see. Right. And I've got another one for you to question the voices in your head. Oh, my gosh. Believe me, when when I first moved to the L.A. area, I had my father in my head saying just blurting out this and that. I was just like, oh, no. Erase. Dump. Burn. You're going away because, you know, a lot of it is based on fear. Yeah, that's true. You know, that's true. I've got I've got to put this boundary between you because I don't I don't know about you. I don't know about your group. I'm afraid of you. I'm afraid. And, you know, just to let those walls down. And I agree with you just to to challenge that. To grow from it is so important. And you do feel better as a human being. I agree. And you expand your social circle exponentially. It's beautiful. It really is. Yeah, I agree. I agree. So you just let a whole bunch of people into your life with varied backgrounds who just add more to your life. It's a great thing. It is cool. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. So we are going to take a little bit of a musical break. But before that, I just want to let you know that I am in a private practice now in Cerritos, California. If you would like to contact me about counseling, my phone number is 562-234-4650. And my email is jgoode8 at Verizon.net. We are going to take a break and we'll be right back with Psych One-on-One. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. Hi, we are back to Psych One-on-One. This is Julianne Good and I am with Dr. Lavonda Mickens-Brahm. And we are talking about microaggressions. So let's talk about everyday microaggressions in America. What does it look like? Okay, so let's say I am an Asian American woman. And you're curious about who I am as a person. And so you ask me, oh, where are you from? And I go, Portland, Oregon. And you say, oh, no, I mean, where are you really from? And I say, well, I was raised in Portland, Oregon. And I was also born there. So I'm not quite sure what you say. And then you continue to persist and say, you know, well, you're Asian. What country are you from? So the idea suggests that because I'm an Asian American woman and born in Portland, Oregon, I'm not as American as the person who is white born in America. Because if I asked a white person born in Portland, raised in Portland, Oregon, most people would kind of say, oh, okay, got it, check, fine. But the fact that an Asian person can get asked three times, where are you from, without actually, without a basis for that. And they're actually answering the question, suggests that maybe people are thinking, oh, something is more, one person is more American. than the other. Yeah, it's making those assumptions again. Yeah. You look like this, so therefore you must be from there. Yeah. You're not from here. You're not part of our culture. You're different and foreign or an immigrant or you're just different. Yeah. Yeah, it's different. But, you know, it's like, I actually think it's okay to be like questioning and have curiosity about difference. It's just like, I don't know. Like fixating on you must not be the same that I am, or you must not be as American or as something as I am, or as good at math or whatever the example is or smart. You must actually be lesser than or something fitting in the box of what I think you are. Yeah. So is it kind of a comparison checklist in one's head? Sometimes, I think so. I think so. Just to say, well, that's, I actually think, I would agree. I agree with you that it comes from fear, that the basis is the person has built in categories for who they think people are. And anything outside of that makes them afraid. So it's like, I'm not going outside of that. This is my category for you. This is my category for the other person. And so I'm just going to like keep going until I make everybody fit into it rather than accepting them for who they are. Yeah. Safe boxes. Boxes. I know. I know. We all check the boxes. Yeah, we do. Whether we like it or not. Whether we fess up to it or not. We all have those checklists that we have to challenge. This is true. Yes. This is true. Yes. So what kind of microaggressions do you see in the therapy room? That's interesting. So, you know, this, this Sue and Sue book that we referenced earlier has plenty of examples of interactions between a therapist and a client. Sometimes the therapist is, sometimes the client is white and the therapist, and the client is minority, is a minority. Sometimes the client is white and the therapist is a minority. Sometimes both are white. Sometimes both are minority. But one of the examples that stood out to me from the text was a white therapist and I believe like an Afro-Caribbean woman. They were both around the same age. And the Afro-Caribbean woman came into therapy and was talking, was talking about how distressed she was in her work environment and how people were kind of talking about her and kind of making snide comments about her hair and saying, oh, your hair looks good today. It looks kind of rough yesterday, or it looked funny or funky, making, making comments that were offensive to her. And the reaction that that woman who was Afro-Caribbean got from the therapist was, uh, do you think you might be, being too sensitive about it? And, you know, so then the client is in the position of saying, well, my feelings were hurt. So maybe I was too sensitive about it. But now I'm wondering if you can see that that could be offensive to me, that somebody making fun of me or making fun of my hair would be offensive. So that's one example. Um, thinking of another example here. Well, and I think you, you brought up a really good point in that the client said my feelings were hurt. And I think that's a good start right there, because obviously when you're in therapy, you want to be dealing directly with your feelings versus sitting there and trying to compartmentalized or intellectualize or, or trying to, again, remove yourself from the situation. Right. And putting it into that box so you don't have to feel those feelings. So I think that's really important that everybody that is on the receiving end of a microaggression learn that you do have a feeling about this. Learn that you, you know, it, it doesn't feel good to be having those kind of, of messages thrown at you. When you, you have no way of, of, of sheltering that off. They just kind of zing at you and you have to deal with it. You know, I think that's, that's a really important component of, of starting to heal from that. That's true. That's true. And, and always acknowledging feelings. That's, that's the, one of my favorite things about therapy is that you can run out of time acknowledging feelings. I mean, literally that's the crux of the work because we spend a lot of time culturally in this society, sharing feelings and saying, oh, well, I'll get over it. Or that happened 10 years ago. It doesn't matter. Of course it matters. You had a feeling about it. It doesn't mean that you should stay in it forever, but it matters. And I think we're quick, too quick to not acknowledge someone else's feelings. You know, it could have been that the therapist in that scenario was uncomfortable or felt kind of strange. But that, you know, I wouldn't even fault the therapist in that situation. I think that she may not have understood. How deeply that could affect the woman to feel the woman was feeling like someone was making fun of her because of her race. And it didn't land as something that could be hurtful. So it changed the empathy. It changed the flavor of the room for both the therapist and the client. Yeah. And so maybe in that case, the therapist could ask a few more questions and just hone in on that feeling. Yeah. Instead of asking, well, what did the other person do? What did she do? What did you do? You know, it's just getting comfortable with feeling the feelings and processing them so that they don't have a life of their own. Yeah. So they get some, you know, some room to breathe and to really be explored. True. Yeah. Good point. There were a few things about microaggressions that I thought were interesting as I was doing the research and like reading about, you know, what is it? How are they alive in society? I came across three different types of microaggressions. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier. No, you did not. But I would like to mention it because I think it's important. So one of them is like micro assaults. These are flat out like aggressive ways of speaking to someone. So they're most likely to be old fashioned racism. There's no guessing game. The person is like, this is the person who says, oh, well, clearly you're not smart because you're a woman. So like if my classmate had said that to me, I would have said, well, you're not smart. Like if my classmate had said that to me, there's no guessing game there. I know what he's saying. So that's actually clearer. And then micro insults was the second level. These are unintentional behaviors or verbal comments that convey rudeness or insensitivity. The demeanor person's racial or ethnic heritage. And an example would be, I didn't know Asians were good dancers. So. Yeah. Something like that. You can't be so stupid like that. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And the third would be invalidations. So these are comments that negate or dismiss psychological thoughts or feelings that are experienced by the group. So the woman in the last example with the therapist and the hair, the therapist was like, oh, well, I don't think it really matters that they were talking about your hair. Or do you think you were being too sensitive? It's kind of invalidating what her experience is. And hair is big in American culture. Hair, I have to tell you, takes on a life of its own in many African-American, Afro-Caribbean cultures. So it's a thing that, you know, that's an opportunity for the therapist to ask more questions about. And it's an opportunity for the client to share, like, this is a big deal for me. Had she felt comfortable doing that in that time. So it's actually on both of them to say, this is a really big deal. Let's see if we can pick it apart and figure out what's going on here. Yeah. So they can take their time and get to the root of it all. Yeah. Exactly. So it's a good thing then that they are pushing diversity classes in grad school. You know, I think it's so important. It is important, especially, I mean, we're in Southern California. Can you imagine if there were no diversity class in a psychotherapy program? You know, one of the things that came to my mind when I was at the conference, hearing stories from people who had had a lot of experience in the field of diversity, and I was like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to get into the field. And so what I thought about when I was hearing Sue speak was this is great that we have an avenue, a place to talk about cultural difference. But then I thought, oh, how funny. Now I'm thinking back, if I backtrack to my own college years, there was no requirement in any, as far as I know, there was no requirement for me to take a class, even one cultural diversity class as a person. And that is the case in many universities. Yeah. the case in many universities. Some may have a requirement. There's no requirement for that in high school that I'm aware of. There's no requirement for that in junior high, in elementary. And it's sort of like, but we, but this is actually so much of the core of who we are as Americans. It requires us to recognize and understand difference. And I don't mean just black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American. I mean, like just different kinds of people. I mean, from everywhere in different ways of living, different ways of being, sexuality, sexual orientation, those differences. Like there's a lot of room for us to grow and have conversations with each other. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And again, it's a point of growth. I've learned so much from being with so many different people. Of so many races and ethnicities. And I've taken some of their cultural things and kind of added it into my own life here and there, because I just think it's fascinating. It has enriched my life. Yeah. Mine too, as well. Yeah. So it's just wonderful. So hopefully people, you know, start, you know, getting to the point where they realize that and, you know, be open-minded about this. That's the biggest lesson. That would be important. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think is one of the best ways to deal with microaggressions? In general? In general. Okay. I actually think it means getting up out of your room, getting up and then walking out of your house, going to a different neighborhood, going to a different environment. And, you know, seeing what the world is like in the eyes of a child who is East Indian or Hispanic, African American in a different city, in a different time. I think LA is so accessible to us in that way. We don't have to go far. I mean, we don't have to go to a different country necessarily to experience a different country. It's like we have our own country in Southern California. I know, literally. Literally, it is like our own country. Our own country. But, you know, these are things like make friends, talk to people. I think we're pretty lucky in the graduate school environment, you know, as people with, you know, psychotherapy backgrounds, because we wind up being around people of different cultural groups and value that to a large extent. But I think that maybe in the, you know, average person's environment, they may or may not have the same opportunity. I don't know. But even if you don't have the same opportunity, if you live in LA, chances are with individuals, you know, you're not going to be able to go to a different country. So I think that's a really good way to deal with microaggressions. Yeah. I think that's a really good way to deal with microaggressions. I think that's a really good way to deal with microaggressions. I think that's a really good way to deal with microaggressions. So in 20 minutes, you can get somewhere that is a totally different environment. You can make friends with somebody who's totally different than you are in a community center. You can ask a friend to visit a church. This is actually one of the ways that I've learned most about different cultural groups, including my own, including, I have to say, as an African-American woman, I've learned different things about African-Americans in general, just by virtue of visiting several different churches. Interesting. So like, and it's not, you don't have to go very far. We sometimes, oh, I have to go to another country. I have to travel. You don't have to do that. You really just have to be engaged and be curious and interested. Yeah. I think just not, I think fighting the urge to be lazy and fighting the urge to check off the box and saying, well, I know what all those people are like. I don't have to learn anything new about them. Like, no, you don't. Walk down the street, say hi, go to the park, go to a center. When you go to a birthday party, talk to somebody that you don't, know. When you go out to like a club or, you know, a bar, whatever, whatever you do socially, chances are you may have, you may have an opportunity to meet somebody new who has a very different background than you do. Yeah. Yeah. And then get on the bus actually. Oh yeah. Or the train. You gotta be careful. You gotta be careful with the train. I do, I do take, I use our Metro system because I think it's great. And you can meet all kinds of life, all walks of life. All walks of life on the train. Yeah. Just sitting back and watching people, I think is fascinating and, and watching different ways that cultures communicate with each other just within their own and then watch them, you know, go out to see if they even go out of their own, you know, their own little niche there. But I, I find that fascinating. I, I love, I love people watching. That's probably why I got into it. Isn't it great? I know. I want to get paid for the people watching I do. So I'm going to join the psychology. You're going to find some way to turn that into research. We're on the same team on that one, Julie. We're on the same team. Yeah. I love doing it. So this is an interesting question. I like this. Do microaggressions always involve a majority minority relationship? That's heavy. Oh, that is heavy. No, they do not. They, and this is a great point. I think this is actually a new area of research and inquiry because people of minority groups, for example, can absolutely perpetuate microaggressions onto each other. Meaning that they will, they will take the worst stereotype perhaps of the in-group and use it against another member of an in-group. Okay. I'll give you a perfect example. I'm walking down the street. I'm walking down the street and I'm walking down the street. I'm an African-American woman. I am walking, facing an African-American man walking my way. I have a decision. I have a decision to make about what I think he, who I think he is as a person. You know, it's going to depend on where I am, the attire of a person, if they're dressed, you know, professional business casual, but let's say they're dressed casual. The dress doesn't matter. And I have a decision to make whether or not I want to be a part of that. I have a decision to make whether or not I want to be a part of that. So I don't want to put a stereotype on him and say, oh, maybe I should cross the street because he's an African-American man walking with whatever shoes or sweater and it looks suspicious. But you know, those things that, that doesn't matter. What's important is that I think that he has the potential to be a great person rather than I know he's going to be bad. You know, I can make a similar assumption about Hispanic American male, Asian. I can make a similar assumption about, a white male as well. But I think, you know, within the group, what I think happens within the group is we take our worst ideas about ourselves and because we feel bad about them, we kind of push them on to other people. It's a, it's kind of, it's a different form of projection. Sometimes it's like the crabs in the barrel, um, idea. I don't know if we've, I don't know if we've talked about that. Have you heard of this? Okay. All right. So the crabs in the barrel means that I'm successful. Okay. Um, but I don't want you to be successful, even though let's say we're both women and we're in a significant minority. So that's not true because we actually happen to be, um, about half, maybe a little more, but let's say in the year 2014, for whatever reason, women are actually successful. Um, and I don't want you to be successful. Um, and I don't 10% of the population. So you and I are climbing the corporate ladder. You know, we both, let's say, want to be corporate attorneys and I get to what seems to be the top level and I see you working your way up to the top of the level and that could scare me as a person. So instead of like helping you, lifting you up, I'm ready to push you down all the way back down to the barrel so that you have to keep crawling up. And then the second you get closer to the top of the barrel, I have to continue to push you back. And I'm ready to push you back. And I'm ready to push you back. And you repeat the same process, but you see me as a woman, I'm actually doing, I'm actually contributing, um, to that, to your detriment. Um, which I think is very sad because I think the person who does that has to buy into the negative stereotype about who they are as a person. I don't think that happens with a person who feels secure and feels comfortable with their own success and who they are as a person. Right. Very insecure. Yeah. Oh yeah. I had a, I had a major bout of that happened at one of the hospitals that I worked at in a research department and she did that because, yeah, because I was starting to get more attention than she was and she was the manager. And so we can't let the little minion. Yeah. So she found ways of sabotaging me. Wow. Yeah. Microaggression. Microaggression. Oh, and there was no, it was. Intergender. Oh, it's a micro assault. It was macroaggression. It was a full on assault. Full on macro assault. Yeah. Well, there's that too. Yeah. Oh yeah. That happens. So I can relate to that one. Yeah. Most definitely. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. There's lots of ways, lots of ways to spin it. I think, you know, that's, what's tricky about microaggressions to me. I sort of would rather a person be outright, you know, you use what the, what's the word that you used about your dad bigoting all over the place. Bigoting all over the place. I think that's brilliant. I really do. I would rather a person bigot all over the place, so that at least I know who they are. And I know what they're going to do. That's the tricky thing about microaggressions. It's sort of like, oh, of course I like people of, who are green. I like green race people, but I won't invite them over to dinner. You know, I won't, I won't want them to marry my kids. I don't want to be their next door neighbor. It's those kinds of things. That happens a lot. Yeah, it does. Exactly. It does. I like them, but. I like them, but. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that continues to go on. That's true. Yeah. And I agree. I would rather have somebody just blatantly say something, you know. Like bigot all over. Bigot all over. You're going to take that and write that in your book, aren't you? Oh my gosh. I won't plagiarize. I'll definitely give you credit for it because it's awesome. However, I think it's a really great phrase because I think it's true to life. It is. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the microaggressions are just, can be so subtle. And so they, they crawl under your skin like a virus. Yep. And they can really multiply and get you sick to a certain degree. So if you are a person that is on the receiving end of microaggressions on a regular basis, what do you recommend that that person does? Seek support. I would say it can be very helpful. I see how you see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see how I see few weeks ago. He said that one of the things that helps people who are like the recipient of microaggressions is hearing somebody say or do something about them that's really negative. And then they lock eyes with somebody in the room who is of the same group. And they both connect like, did you hear that? Yes. Did you hear that? I actually, again, during graduate school, I have tons of these experiences in graduate school. I had a professor who said something that I felt was very negative about African-American people in general. And I felt, I thought it was like a catch 22. Is she really saying something like that? Is it negative? She made a comment that black people don't use this word. They use a word that is not really in the English language instead, because it's more like it's a part of the culture. And I thought, huh. I've never really heard that. But anyway, I just thought it was black. No, she was she was white. Okay. So she so I thought, well, I've never really heard that. But it doesn't mean that she can't be right. But I just thought it was so strange. And then I looked over at the only other black person in the room. And he looked at me and I looked at him. We were like, we kind of gave like each other the side eye with a nod like, did you see that? And it kind of really that helped. And that was it. Once you know, basically, what you have to seek out is, is an individual who knows that your experience is valid. That's really what it takes. And that actually is funny, because that's the job of a good therapist to validate the person's experience. None of us can fix a person's feelings, take away all their emotions. That's not the goal. But really, the goal is to validate experiences. And I think that's what an individual who's been talked about or feels like the world expects the worst of them or people are asking them, are they American 20 times a day? Just to look at somebody else, and say, has this happened to you? Have you felt this too? Yes, and yes. And you actually do feel better about it. You know, like, even amongst women have people assume that you are not going to be able to be a major contributor to the house or a breadwinner or something like that. And, and some and multiple women can say, yeah, people will assume that I can't do that, or that I'm not able to do that. And just having that acknowledgement and validation can be really helpful. Right. And just, maybe understanding to that, whoever the center was of that microaggression, they may have been feeling off or just, you know, you have to kind of almost see it from the other person's eyes, like, why would you say something like that, but not really get into that trying to guess that other person's emotional state when he or she made that dumb statement. You know, I just, I just, I just, you know, just sit there and realize that that person wasn't completely thinking through Yeah, their statement before they open their mouth. That's right. And you know what, we're all capable. See, that's the thing. It's human, we're all capable of saying dumb stuff, and not really thinking about it before it leaves our mouth. But I think what happens is we don't continue the conversation after the dumb thing gets said, right? We go, Oh, all right, that's awkward, and then run away to the different directions. Or maybe we apologize. Whoops, sorry, I said this. But you know, and, you know, just try to try to make it right again. Yeah. You know, everybody, like you said, everybody slips. Everybody slips. You know, it's part of being human, right? That's right. That's right. That's true. So Dr. Bram, can you let us know about your private practice? Oh, great. Thank you. So I am, my name is Dr. Bram, obviously. I'm in the West Los Angeles area. You can reach me at Dr. Bram.com. I'm at the West Los Angeles area. You can reach me at Dr. Bram.com. You can reach me at 310-564-6773. That is my direct practice line. You're welcome to call. I definitely work with people of all cultural backgrounds. That's something that's always been very important to me. Have experience and expertise in addiction, PTSD and trauma, also mood, anxiety and psychotic disorders. I've been really fortunate to have a lot of clinical experience in my career. And just look forward to that. I look forward to continuing to work. And I must mention also that you worked with some of the survivors for Hurricane Katrina. Yes, I did. And we're very proud of you for doing that. Thank you so much. I think that's fabulous. You've talked about that a little bit in class. Yeah. You were my professor for a couple of classes and I really appreciate that. Thank you. You're just a wonderful, wonderful teacher. It's actually a pleasure to be your instructor. Thank you. We had fun. We did have a good time. It was good. We can have fun and work at the same time. Exactly. I think that's a healthy thing to do, most definitely. So would you like to have any finishing statements as we're wrapping up? Okay. Talk to people. If you make assumptions, challenge them. Smile at people. Assume that a person who looks completely different than you can be exactly the same. Exactly different than you can be exactly like you on the inside. And, you know, assume all sorts of things. Just have hypotheses about people that just don't fit into one box. And just try to, you know, continue to live your life and enjoy humankind. That would be it. And learn from each other. You never know who is going to be a teacher to you. That's right. That's right. We have opportunities every day. Yes, we do. And life is one big classroom, isn't it? That's right. It's a huge classroom. It's a miracle we're surviving. Every day. And learning the lessons that we need to learn. This is true. This is true. That is so important. Yeah. Well, I just want to say thank you. It's been such a pleasure. It's always a pleasure. I really enjoy your show. I've listened to others. I hope the listeners out there continue to listen to your show. It's awesome. Thank you so much. And you're doing great work in the community. Thank you. And Dr. Lovelace, thank you. Thank you. And LaVonda Mickens, when she was LaVonda Mickens, not married, we did a podcast last year on substance abuse. So I would like to refer you back to that. That was a great show. Thank you. Very informative. So you really know your stuff. So thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. And thank you so much listeners for tuning in to Psych One-on-One. If you could not catch this whole podcast, it will be archived onto Skid Row.com. And you can get it on to skidrowstudios.com within 24 to 48 hours. And we'll also be on iTunes and Stitcher. So please go and check that out. Go and check out previous podcasts. There's a lot of information from a lot of different experts. Thank you so much for joining me on Psych One-on-One. This has been Julianne Good. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. I'm We'll see you next time.