Creating healthy couples with Dr. Susan Jacob

hello i'm julianne good and you're listening to psych one-on-one welcome and i hope you enjoyed the program um i'm here to make psychology a little bit more understandable and the nice thing about taking this psychology course is that you can learn about psychology and you don't have to take a test afterwards so that's always a benefit isn't it so anyways a little bit about my background is i am currently finishing my master's of marriage and family therapy at the chicago school of professional psychology in downtown los angeles where we're located just right around the block and i'm currently doing my practicum hours of counseling children and parents and working with domestic violence and rape and incest clients um so tonight my guest is dr susan jacob we are going to be discussing creating healthy couples and a little bit about dr jacob's background she is a licensed marriage and family therapist for 25 years she received her phd from the california graduate institute also of los angeles and she has served as a executive director of three non-profit organizations and she's been a member of the california graduate institute for 25 years she founded coastal family therapy services in 1999 to serve at-risk families she has specializations in emdr chemical dependency domestic violence clinical supervision custody evaluation and is on the boards of and an expert witness for orange county family courts dr jacob has also served on the orange county mental health the orange county alcohol and drug and the orange county mental health and the orange county mental health and the orange county health and the orange county mental health and the orange county mental health and the laguna beach boys and girls club on their boards and dr jacob's greatest professional passion has always been working directly with her clients so i'd like to welcome dr jacob thank you how are you i'm fine thank you so i would like to start off with you know since we're talking about creating healthy relationships and couples um for all of your years of clinical expertise what would you say stands out as the number one problem with clients well when we're talking about couples and relationships um personal relationships seem to be the biggest problem of most people they may have other relationships that are going very well but their personal relationships are a struggle and sometimes they just can't understand why they're having such difficulties and what would you say would be one of the top reasons you think that they're having difficulties with their personal relationships well i think one of the reasons that they struggle is what i've noted so very often with couples when they come in here or individuals when they talk about their relationships is that there is a tendency to take on a role of a parent and child between the couples and to speak to one as if one is the uh critical parent not a parent and a child and a couple of couples and a couple of couples and a couple of couples not a nurturing parent but a critical parent and the other is a misbehaving child it is really detrimental to the relationship and important to avoid i think it is one of the biggest struggles i see and i also see them taking turns doing this one sometimes as a parent one sometimes as a child and depending on the topic they're talking about so the very same people pardon me go ahead no go ahead i said no i'm not a parent i'm not a parent i'm not a parent i'm not a parent i'm not a parent the very same people that seem to be able to communicate in a healthy way with others and can be very successful professionals and work in many areas may have this very difficulty with their significant other so where do you think that kind of dynamics within a couple's starts from it's interesting the most likely probability is that we're always we're watching our own parents we observe and hear and they go you know we record it in our minds as normal even if we didn't like it sometimes we didn't particularly care how our parents interacted but we still sort of have a tape going in our head of that's a dynamic of how things go and so we may fall into that pattern without even realizing it right so then you know we we start mimicking what our parents ended up doing even if it's really dysfunctional and we carry that on it seems like it can be like multiple generations it seems sometimes i mean you you you go to a family reunion and you can see where it starts from the grandparents goes to the parents goes down to the children and it's the same it's the same dynamics that they they treat their their spouses or boyfriends or girlfriends with and it's pretty incredible to watch it is well i think most of us recognize that we all have patterns and we all have patterns and we all have patterns and we all have patterns and we all have patterns and we all have patterns and each human being has a pattern of behavior that they've adopted for different circumstances some of those patterns are very successful and work very well for us some of them not so much and so we listen we hear we react and we're not thinking about it usually people are not aware that this is what's going on and um they start this pattern and it's a deal breaker it's destructive every time and so it's an important thing and it's a common it's very common and it's a common thing and it's a common i think when we become parents it's even more common to speak from a parent perspective but our our uh significant other is not our child and it's important to remember that exactly and it's very interesting to see some couples that you know you see that parent-child interaction especially if one one of the the two really wants the other person to change i think doesn't that seem like to be a typical theme it's interesting i think if we're really honest with ourselves in spite of who we are most of us really don't want to be married to ourselves we're really not that interested in being with someone that's exactly like us however our way of doing things is ingrained it's our pattern and so we believe we're right and we begin to insist that the other person be more like us and of course really we're not going to be married to ourselves we're going to be married to ourselves most people find it much better to be with someone that is different than them they can have the same values but different personalities and different ways of doing things it's uh more valuable than finding a clone of ourselves but again a pattern to think we want a clone of ourselves well uh if we're narcissistic yes that's definitely that would definitely hold true but um yeah i think you would end up getting bored with with with a clone of yourself relationship wise and you know a little bit of difference spices up the relationship but maybe just a little not not a significant amount correct well i think if we have the same values we want the same things in life that's really important but our approach to things and and our personality for example one person may be very outgoing and very talkative the other person may not be so much that works out just fine and so i think it's really important to have that kind of relationship with someone that's sometimes people have a way of say cooking or cleaning or working or driving that is different than the other person we need to say to ourselves that's fine and maybe it enhances our life to have someone different than us expands our perspectives and keeps us from being bored i think it's and i don't think it's just narcissism i think that we don't know what we want so we sort of use our own values and we don't know what we want to do with ourselves and we don't know what we want to do with ourselves as a frame of reference yeah or else we end up getting caught in this fairy tale sort of uh mentality of looking at well you know you're not quite perfect here here and here so i'm gonna i'm gonna look for somebody else that has these qualities but in reality it may not exist it may be asking too much of a partner to to live up to one person's expectations do you agree i agree and i think if we're going to be able to live up to one person's expectations we need to be able to be able to live up to one person's expectations we need to be able to be honest most of us would accept that we ourselves are not perfect and it would be pretty intimidating to have a relationship with someone that was it would make us feel you know obliged to be perfect and not to ever drop the ball so we want people that are human we want people that are normal all of us are flawed and maybe if we can cut them some slack they can cut us some and the relationship will be healthier right and more interesting definitely and i agree with with cutting people slack you know understanding that people are going to make mistakes but mistakes are the way that we learn you know and you know what would you say would would be some of the most destructive components of relationships well i think that we have to look at our frame of reference and our perspective when we're looking at our relationships oftentimes i hear people say i know what he's thinking they'll interrupt each other i know what she's thinking i know what he's thinking and of course we don't know what they're thinking we often don't even know what we're thinking ourselves and we have to have some humor about this and realize we're only guessing we don't know what they're thinking and usually when we're saying this we're thinking they're thinking something negative that they have negative attention intentions towards us which really doesn't make sense i think in the best interest of couples it's better to assume your loved one has your best interest in heart has good intentions and if they have hurt your feelings it wasn't intentional they're just being them it is not directed at you so that you don't start with a philosophy that's negative to begin with to start with a philosophy that if someone cares about you they have no reason to hurt you or to direct you or have negative thoughts or negative intentions towards you so let's assume that they don't and give them the benefit of the doubt we'll we'll be in a better place right and you know i would imagine that you know couples that if either one of them had had some kind of abuse during their childhood that that would come into the relationship somewhere and that they would end up replaying out those basic relationships that they have from their family of origins and uh... what what what can a couple do to sit there and say okay well i had a bad childhood but i want to make this relationship work with you my intimate person right in the here and now i think that cognitive therapy is very useful because it looks at how we think and how we think addresses how we feel and how we behave and so if we look at our um! past and of course the sum of all of our experiences make us who we are today and we can get a lot of good information even from bad experiences we can learn from abuse for example what never to do i've seen many many individuals that have come from abuse that would never in their life be abusive they're very guarded and very careful not to ever abuse anyone because they know what it feels like to receive it and so they've learned by a negative example that can happen they may however fall in a relationship with someone that it is abusing them we have to be just very aware and very tuned in to what we came from and what was healthy and what wasn't and to seek help if we find ourselves in a bad dynamic in a bad pattern but it isn't inevitable it is not inevitable that we will continue to have the pattern we just have to work hard not to look for the red flags is what i say so what are some of those red flags that you would be looking for in order to go to couples therapy well i think any kind of abuse is a red flag if anybody is emotionally physically sexually abusive or has substance abuse problems you're in trouble it's nearly impossible to have a relationship with someone that's abusive so sometimes people find themselves in a bad situation and they're not able to deal with it because they're not drawn to those relationships that are similar to, say, one of their parents or both. And they may need some real help to break that pattern and to move forward and to choose a different kind of individual and break that pattern of abuse and find themselves uncomfortable for a while, uncomfortable with kindness, uncomfortable with someone that isn't abusive. And that may take some practice, but with work, they can break that cycle and find someone a lot healthier. And most people, of course, desire the best and know within themselves that there's something healthier out there for them. Right. And sometimes I think people just need to have wake-up calls and to, you know, hopefully somebody around them saying, hey, you know, you should really be looking at your relationship right now because it's not healthy. He or she is behaving this way towards you, and you should really wake up and get some help or whatever. Walk away, break it off, whatever you need to do to get that healthy distance and get that perspective going. And, you know, take a look at breaking that cycle because I think there's so many times that people fall into autopilot and they just keep on playing out the behaviors that they've been played out for so long because they're comfortable with those types of behavior. Well, uncomfortable with the familiar behavior that they may dislike. Or even hate. But it's familiar. And we are comfortable in what we know. It seems like we're on another planet, a foreign planet, for people to act differently. But I think most people do crave a healthier environment and do crave to visit, to take a nice trip and learn that language of kindness. I think it can be done. Red flags, I think we need to trust how we feel. I think we need to pay attention. If we feel like we're an errant child, and that we can never be right, and that what we do is not good enough and we're criticized all the time, it's a red flag. If we find ourselves putting our interests and our needs aside entirely until we forget what they are, red flags. And certainly any kind of abuse. Any kind of abuse is completely destructive and we need to get away from that. Safety first. That's number one. Right. And just stepping back a moment for, the needs, I think also it's important that we don't get consumed in our own personal needs and ignore or neglect the other person's needs. Because I think nowadays with life being so busy that we can have a tendency to do that. Oh, I'm too busy to have a relationship with you, but I'll call you at five o'clock tonight and we can talk for five minutes. And you know what I mean? I mean, it's a delicate balance. It seems like nowadays, is that right? True. I think that if we were to look at life as a pie and we were to ask anyone, what is the most important? You know, you look at your work and you look at your recreation, you look at your family life, all the different, your friends, all the different things, your education that are taking up your time. If you asked most of us where the majority of our time goes, it isn't to the part of us that's most important, which is usually our, hopefully our relationships. We tend to spend more time at work or sometimes even in volunteer work or recreation and not the time in the part of our lives that really means the most of us. I think being cognizant of that is helpful and to realize that we have to prioritize and the people in our lives are what matters first. Right. We need to be mindful of that time and create that time. I think that's really important that... Absolutely. Yeah. And hopefully on a daily basis, instead of just trying to schedule a date in here and there. And, you know, I was reading statistics not too long ago about the average couple time in England and it was like 30 minutes a day average. That was it. And I'm going, okay, we are, you know, that's probably pretty reflective of what's happening in America also. But I... Right. It's just amazing. It surprises me. Yes. And I think it's... So many things are pulling us in so many different directions and now we have cell phones and internet and they're on all the time and so work is never off and we're pulled different ways. I don't think it's anyone we're... It's not intentional, but it's happening. But we stop and think about it. It's really valuable. It meets our needs and our partners' and our families' needs to spend time, share our day, talk about what went on, process it, to hear each other, to have an ally because our significant other needs to be our closest friend, our ally, to be supportive of us even when we make mistakes. It's what we all crave and all need and we need to be able to have that time to share and talk and take a walk and not do it in competition with everything else that's in our lives, but spend the evening together, have dinner together, have walks. Just time. It's precious. Exactly. It really is. And you brought up the competition aspect of it too and I see couples do that also as they get into competition of I can do this better than you can or that's kind of odd to see. What do you think about that? Oh, I think it's another major problem. People wanting to be in a relationship and wanting to win, they become very adversarial. I'm right. I'm right. Being so invested in being right, in winning, when you think about it, relationships and families are your own team. You can't win against your own team. It's a team sport. So in order for things to be successful, we have to work together. We have to include the other person and make them part of the whole. We cannot win in a couple situation because if one person wins, the relationship loses. It's a common problem. It's a common problem though that people want to be right. And I think accepting, who knows what right is? Who knows what right is? But together, two heads are better than one and you're on the same team and you'll cover more bases. And the world is adversarial enough. We do not need it at home. It's the last thing we need at home. Yeah, we need time to unplug here. We need someone on our side. We need allies, right? Exactly. Yeah, we need to have that person. Our cheerleader when we come home or we go to one another's places and go, hey, I had a great day or I had a crappy day and that's it. This is who I am. This is what I've done and accept me for who I am. Right, even if we say, oh, I blew it. I can't believe what I did today. I made this error. I drove home and I cut somebody off, whatever. I did something that was a mistake. And the person who loves us, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm so sorry. You're probably really tired and distressed. I'm really sorry you had such a hard day. We don't need somebody to beat us up and tell us, well, why did you do that? What was going on with you? And start on that. Or if we have a disagreement with, say, our boss or our friend, we do not need our significant other to take the side of the other person. They need to be our ally. And allies, when you think about it, don't always agree. They don't always have the same perspective. But working together, it's in their best interest. And they need that alliance. And so they support each other in spite of not 100% agreement. Right, and they need that compassion also. You know, they need to just, you know, like you said, not the critical parent when you come home and the 20 questions and this is a continuation of work. You know, because, I mean, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. But it's got to be one of the most crucial areas is, you know, you may have a very stressful job that is very demanding of your time and your energy. And then you have maybe a little bit of decompression time when you're out on the road. Hopefully, if it's not a major traffic jam like in LA. Yeah, I wouldn't say most people think the road is decompression. I think they think it adds to it, you know. That's true hostility out there, you know. And so when you get home, it may be the only island in the world where you can be at peace and you can have support and you can have an ally and somebody to sit down and share a meal and watch a movie, talk things over. Someone that's on your side that has compassion for you, even when we're wrong. I think that's really important. And someone that likes you. You need to know they like you. Yeah, you need to be friends. Right. We don't want to come home to someone we are pretty sure doesn't like us. We need to know that they do like us. And usually I think our dream and our hopefulness is that we come home to someone that likes us just a little bit more than we like ourselves. Well, hopefully. Well, that would be the goal. And if you think about it, we want to try to give the people we love some positive support. Even on the days when they're really not thinking very well of themselves. They've had a hard time. And we want to cheer them up, be supportive, or just sit with them quietly and be on their side, be a friend, be an ally. The attitude is so important. And I think also to remember, we are not, as adults, to raise other adults. We don't teach them things. We don't correct them. We are adult to adult. Right. We don't reparent. Yes, we don't reparent them. I think that's one of the things we have to remember, that we're not always right on certain things and give a little slack space to the other person's opinion. That's important. Now, what would you recommend on how people can de-stress, decompress in between work or school or whatever outside responsibilities they have before they go? Yeah. And start having a relationship and making that switch to, okay, I'm not an employee now. This is the person that I care about and love. So what do I do from here? Well, if you think about it, no matter what our profession, some are worse than others, but most of our professional skills and talents, no matter what role we take, do not translate 100% and maybe some of them, maybe only 1% to 100% of them. Right. To home. We are not the boss. We are not the teacher. We are not the student. So when we're, especially if we're very accomplished and successful, we will be thinking about our role and we will be reinforced, rewarded for being very good at certain things for these skills of interaction, which when we get home, might work exactly the opposite. And so I think when we're driving home, we need to be aware of that and switch hats. We need to listen. We need to listen to music or come in and take a shower first, take a walk and be very aware that at home, we are not the same person. We are not in the same role. We're not wearing the same hats and really consider that a relief because do we really want to be on, tuned into all those skills we need for work or school all day, 24 seven? I think it's pretty rewarding to be able to come home and not be at work. And not be the boss or the teacher or the salesperson or even the therapist. Right. And not have to play a role, not always having to be your public persona out there. And you can come home and you can just be yourself. Just be exactly. Yeah, definitely. And be aware that no matter what, if we're a great salesperson, for example, you can't sell your position or your position. That's not the point of view at home. That just won't work. If you're the expert, you're the physician or you're the teacher, that is not the role at home. It's not with our, we're equals at home. We're partners and we don't bring that home no matter how successful we are. As a matter of fact, I think some of the most successful professionals have the most difficult time in relationships because it's sort of a shock to have so much positive coming their way at work and not being able to do that. And I think that's one of the things that's so important to me is having it not work at all at home. And I will share with you, I'm married to a litigator. So, you know, that doesn't translate. Yeah, I would imagine that could be a little challenging at times, but good for you. Okay, I want to take this time for just a second to let you know that if you would like to call in and talk to Dr. Jacob or ask questions, you can call us at 800-625-7000. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. We'd love to talk to you. So, Dr. Jacob, the next question I would like to ask you is what mental health problems do you see as a result of relationship issues? Well, I see, of course, some people become highly anxious. They have anxiety problems. They can experience depression. And, of course, in some of the situations like we were talking about where there's abuse or trauma, people can have post-traumatic stress disorder and flashbacks and all that. So, all those are very serious and very painful, and people really do suffer. Relationships are the most powerful thing in our life, and that's always been true and it always will be. And so it has a deep effect. And, of course, our relationships we've had with our parents growing up, we trigger that, and it wasn't good, and we're having more of the same. Then we may be even in deeper depression and really be grieving, grieving for what was lost or what we don't have. It can be pretty serious. What would you say would be the most serious of all of those dysfunctional relationship components? You mean diagnosis? Like depression or post-traumatic stress? Yeah. Well, post-traumatic stress carries anxiety and depression, and people can have flashbacks and be confused and feel like they're in the past when they're in the present. And what happened, the trauma that happened in the past can feel as present as if it happened a minute ago. It's as if it hasn't receded in our minds and our brains and our emotional system. It hasn't receded in time. So, it's a little bit of a back and forth. So, it's a little bit of a back and forth. So, it's a little bit of a back and forth. It's very alive and very traumatic at different times when we don't even expect it. So, it's what the soldiers were going through. And we see the outcome of that. It is very, very serious. And unfortunately, some people's childhood and home life is like a war scene. And some little, it could be something much less, an argument, a disagreement, someone raising their voice, which I think is a bad idea anyway, to raise your voice. I think we need to calm down first. But it could trigger a lot in someone. I think we need to be very aware of our loved one's history so that we can be particularly sensitive and supportive of who they are and what they've gone through. We want the best. We don't want to trigger anything horrible. Right. And with some couples, I think that might take a little bit of practice to get into that not hollering at each other. Because I think just as that's a natural default that we go into as being humans is we go into a relationship with our loved ones and we get upset, we raise our voices, we yell, we swear and stamp off and all those other wonderful things like we're five-year-olds again. So what would you recommend therapy-wise for any kind of couples that have gone through PTSD situations in their lives? And they need to work on that and they want to get healthier from that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And PTSD, absolutely. And they need to have individual and couples counseling. So if it were me, I'd be working with the individual and bringing their partner in some of the time so that we can work together on support. And we love somebody and they've been through trauma. We want to help them get better. We want to be supportive. But another thing you were talking about is you were saying we fall into a natural response. It doesn't necessarily have to be a natural response to raise our voice and yell when we have a difference of opinion. I think we fall into that if that's what we were raised with. Some people that are really peaceful and quiet and maybe don't say much, don't even speak up at all, which is the opposite. But I think it's best, as far as that goes, is to really be keyed into physically how we're feeling. And if we begin to feel our temperature rising, say on a scale of one to ten, we get to about a five or six, we need to take a walk, we need to take a shower, we need to cool down. Because nobody ever resolved a difference. And that's the only way we can solve a problem. And that's the only way we can solve a problem. And that's the only way we can solve a problem. And that's the only way we can solve a problem. So if we're aware that we're beginning, or the person we're with is beginning to get really worked up, we need to be respectful and say, look, let's wait till we're calm. This is very important. Let's give it a half an hour, an hour, whatever it takes. Let's wait till we're calm and talk about this until we can solve this problem and listen respectfully. It's the only way a problem's ever going to get solved, not by yelling. Not by shouting louder. We're not heard, just our voices are heard. So I think it's really important to think about that. If you want to be heard, be calm, be quiet, be peaceful. Right. That sounds like a wonderful prescription for anger. I think maybe that if a couple has gotten into that pattern of conflict, that maybe, at a certain point, they should sit down and say, when they're not fighting, of course, and say, look, one of the people say, look, let's talk about us blowing up at each other and try to resolve these issues and let's come up with a plan that if we get into that pattern again, we get in there, we break the cycle somehow. But as a couple... You're right. Absolutely. I think that it's wonderful if people either are coming in together or even listening to this now and think, okay, let's make a deal. We're all in this together. We're all playing by the same rules. If anybody, and it's good with the children too, anybody begins to have a raised temperature and we know that in ourselves or the other person, we say, hey, we want to solve this problem, so we need to be calm. Let's take a little time. Let's, you know, go off into our private space and meet again in a half an hour or, you know, like sometimes parents say, after dinner when the kids are in bed or tonight when we're off work, whatever it is that we give ourselves some time, but with the commitment to come back and talk about it because we say, we're too mad to talk about it. The other person feels rather flipped off as if they're never going to ever resolve this problem. The person isn't willing to listen. If you just walk away, they may follow you. They may get in your face and it may escalate, which is often how violence happens. It's, we need to be respectful about it. We're getting angry here. Let's wait till we're calm so we can talk and listen to one another. The other thing I notice is we have this belief that if we listen to someone else, it's like we have to buy what they're selling, like the magazine kid at the door. And if we listen, we're going to have to buy all those magazines. And so, we don't want to listen. It's like, hang up fast, close the door. The truth is, we don't have to buy what, you know, someone else is selling. We can listen and learn. It's like, okay, I want to understand your perspective. Where are you coming from on this? And listen carefully and then learn to ask them, is this what you mean? Is this how you see it? You may gain some real insight. People may be completely off on what they think, where the other one's coming from. So, listening peacefully, calmly, and learning something without feeling obligated to buy that position is very important. Very important for talking to anyone. And it's interesting to hear where somebody else is coming from. It really is, especially we care about them. Exactly. And I think the thing is, too, is just to at least slow down, stop, take a few deep breaths, and open up to listening and keeping your mouth closed. Because I think there's so many times when we're in the midst of conflict that the person that's listening actually starts overriding the other person, going, hey, you know, I'm right and you're wrong and that's it. And, you know, and then it starts escalating that whole pattern all over again. Yeah, we haven't even heard them. Sometimes we're so busy thinking about, what we're going to say, we forgot to listen to what they said. And sometimes when we're speaking, we can have the tendency to give so many examples. And this and this and this and we get carried away and the other person's eyes glass over. And so it's important to be calm and be simple and only talk about one thing at a time. I feel about laundry this way. I feel about how we should handle this situation. This way. The other person, you and I both know, even though it sounds annoying, reflective listening works. So what you're saying is you feel this way about it and you think this would be a good idea. So the person feels heard. Okay. Okay. Well, what's your perspective? And then you can take turns. It's important to stay on one subject. People get carried away before you know it. They're talking about the children and they're talking and the next thing they know, they're talking about something happened. Two weeks ago at a friend's house, nothing ever gets resolved and people get confused. It's just, you can get to everything, pick your priority one thing at a time and be calm and listen. Yeah. And not rehash old problems unless of course they haven't been solved originally, which is always a problem. That's why the rehash. Absolutely. I hear that all the time. Generally, unfortunately, it says females that a kid accused of bringing up the past mostly. And they'll say to me, she always brings up the past. She brings up old things. Why is that continually happening? And I'll say, because it's not resolved. Let's resolve it. If the issue, if the conflict is resolved, it doesn't need to come up again. So what part of that issue is not resolved? What is the piece of it that keeps being a recurrent problem so that people can agree about how they're going to handle it from now on so that there's something more comfortable for both parties? And nobody wants to, we hear the past coming back at them all the time, but no one wants to feel like they've never been hurt and never gotten anywhere on an issue either. So we need to listen. We need to solve the problem. And then we can leave it behind and move on to whatever's number two on the list, you know? Right. That first one. Yeah. And I think it really gets down to some problems need to be dug down to the root cause of it. To begin with, to begin with. And, you know, because there's just some issues in life that may start off superficially, but once you start looking below the surface, there are some real complex issues within that one problem that a couple is going through. You're absolutely right. If somebody, and it's good to know, no matter who we're talking to or we're listening to ourselves and we hear ourselves talking to ourselves, getting too intense, overreacting to something, or we hear somebody else overreacting or being too intense and we think, wow, why is the reaction so strong? Always be aware that that problem has roots. What's going on is not just what we see, but it has roots into the past. And we want to recognize that in ourselves and others and respect it and see if we can follow that route to what is being triggered so that we can look at the whole issue and not just the superficial. Because, for example, some people, I've noticed, if someone's late, they're just in a panic. They're 10 minutes late and this person is beside themselves with rage. You think, 10, 15 minutes? How could it do that? Well, maybe they were the kid that was sitting with their suitcase waiting for one of their parents to pick them up and who never came, weekend after weekend, day after day, time after time. That abandonment, that rejection they felt all those years ago so late, so late, may be a horribly painful experience. We want to know that. We want to know that about the people we care about so that we're careful to call and reassure them and not to put them in a position of being back sitting there with their suitcase again. And respect is everything. Being an ally. And then I take it personally. If they're overreacting, it may not really be about you. It may be about that parent that left them sitting. It may not be about you in your 10 minutes. So I think keeping perspective and standing back, gives us an awareness. It's really helpful. Yeah. And sometimes I think we also, you know, as being in a loving relationship, we need to sit there and dig a little bit deeper. We need to be asking the questions. Why are you really overreacting like this? What's really going on here? And then again, slowing down and talking with each other. And then hopefully, you know, it might take a little digging. You know, almost like an archaeologist or something. Patience and digging and doing the detective work. Yeah. And I think detective work is the biggest thing we do in therapy. The client and us working together to figure out what is going on. I think sometimes we don't know. Something may trigger us and we may feel really, we may be the person that can't stand 10 minutes late. And we may not know why. We may not realize it. We may think it really is in the here and now. And we may have kind of pushed aside those horrible, painful events in the past. So sometimes we're being detectives. I think therapy is the best place for that. For, I think of myself as Watson and my client as Sherlock. And we're trying to figure out what's going on because once we figure out what's going on, it's not that difficult to solve the problem. But we have to know what it is. And I think sometimes we need to be aware. People don't always know. They just know they feel strong. They feel strongly about something. Sometimes they know and sometimes they don't. And it may not surface so easily. Right. Sometimes it may take time because they feel stuck. They feel stuck in their brains and their hearts and just everyday life. They're too busy. And, you know, I think what's one of the amazing things about being in therapy is just sometimes you see people, the light bulbs go off when they start talking about their stories because they haven't even heard their own story. They're, some people are just a stranger in their own lives. Well, I think at some level maybe all of us are a little bit, if we're honest. But just hearing ourselves talk and share, it's not just the other person who's listening to us and trying to understand us. We hear our own voice and in an atmosphere where it's receptive and respected. And we can hear what we're saying and, you know, we can understand a lot about ourselves and be in an atmosphere where we can look at the whole picture and not be under such pressure like we are in our relationships sometimes to come up with an answer. The worst paths are blacked out often. So sometimes people have no idea what it's triggering because the very worst childhoods are a blank slate to people. They won't remember their childhood at all or pieces of it, which is a red flag of trauma. So we can't, they may not be able to reach it so easily. We need to help them. We need to be patient, understand that. And supportive. They don't remember. Right. They may not remember. They may not remember exactly what happened. They just know they have a powerful feeling now. And so if they don't remember, it's informative, just that, to know if you can't remember huge parts of the past, there's a reason. Your brain is a marvelous thing. It's protecting you. We don't want to force. Your brain to remember something you're not ready for. Be really compassionate about that and help people to work out things at the pace that they can tolerate them because forcing something that's very traumatic may re-traumatize. Be just very gentle. And there's some real skills to helping people deal with trauma or horrible events. Sometimes it's just one single horrible event that, that, they've blocked out. Just be aware, be sensitive, be caring, and know that there's so many possibilities of why someone is acting this way and only one of them is that they don't like us or that we've made some huge mistakes. That's only one. There's many other possibilities too. So be open. Yeah. Be open to all the possibilities. Yeah. Awareness. And I think it's important for people to realize also that there, there are, there are many avenues of help nowadays. If you find yourself that you, you have had a traumatized childhood that you can reach out to many professionals or groups or there's, there's multiple avenues of help out there. And, and that's, that's a wonderful thing. I, you know, I, I brought that up in the, the last podcast that I've done that do not isolate. Sit there and reach out and get the help because, as, as humans, we need to have the interaction. We need to have the connection. That is what keeps us healthy and going and strong. To know that we need help, to be aware of that and be willing to reach out and get help when we need it. That's a healthy person. It's the healthiest thing we could do. And so oftentimes when people say, oh, they're all crazy to go to therapy. I think, yeah, they're some of the healthiest people I know. It's the people that refuse to get help and won't work. And so, you know, when people talk on their problems, that's a little thicker than someone that goes, hey, you're in a great deal of difficulty or I'm suffering in some way. I need to get some help. I need to work this out. To me, that's health. That's the first step in health. And so, I kind of have an opposite view of getting mental health help, what it means reaching out. I think it's an excellent, shows a strong character and a healthy mind. It does. Even at our worst, if we know it, we need help. I think that's something to be respected. Yeah. And we all need to accept and realize that we all go through difficulties and it's really okay. You know, I'm sure you can agree with this. I've heard quite a few, what I call war stories for people and what they've gone through in their lives. But I think it's amazing to see once they start, you know, unraveling it to see how marvelous it is that they survive through so much. And I think in couples, that should be respected. It's like, wow, you've gone through that much, but you're still here and you can still care about me and love me and love yourself and we can keep going here. You know, so I think that's incredible. I often, in the worst of war stories, sometimes feel humbled that that individual is sitting here and is functioning so well and has done so much in spite of having, it's just, it's rather humbling because some of the things that we hear, we think, wow, could I have been so strong? And so, we need to respect people that have overcome adversity, great adversity. There's a strength to that and we wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I think some of the best people I've ever met have overcome terrible adversity and it causes scars, but sometimes they're just actually humbling. It's amazing to me. So, I respect people that have overcome things and I respect people that continue to work on things and want to get help and want to be the best they can be. I think, I do, of course. You and I are therapists and we're believers. We all go and most of us, we believe it works because we know we've experienced it ourselves. Right. And then I've also seen the miracle of seeing people change who I thought, I was like, no way. I thought it ended up taking years and years, but it's interesting once they start unraveling the stories and stuff, sometimes just getting healthier can be a quicker process than some people realize. It's not like being in psychoanalysis for years and years and years like some people do. I mean, some people out there can sit there and relate to that, but I think nowadays the tendency is to do quicker therapy because people don't have the time and money and resources to be doing years and years of therapy. So, and the techniques that we're using nowadays are geared for doing that. So, you know, I'd like to reach out to the listeners again one more time because we just have a few minutes left here. If you'd like to call in and talk to Dr. Susan Jacob, the number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. So, I'd also like to let you know that if you'd like to download this program onto iTunes, all you need to do is type in Psych1on1, and that's P-S-Y-C-H, the number one, O-N, and then another number one. So, that's available on iTunes and we're also on Twitter, Facebook, and Stitchers. So, so you can listen to this anytime you'd like. And if you would like to contact me at any time, my email address is jgood1111 at hotmail.com. It's J-G-O-O-D-E 1111 at hotmail.com. Now, I'd like to just wrap this up and and ask you, what would be your top two or three recommendations for creating healthy, intimate relationships? I'd say that we need to listen to ourselves, hear how we sound, how are we communicating. Not to listen to how the other person sounds, but to listen to ourselves and hear if we're communicating in a respectful way. It's good to be kids together when we're having fun, but the rest of the time we need to be adults together and speak respectfully to one another. The other thing would be examine your philosophy. Is your perspective positive? Are you giving your loved one the benefit of the doubt? Do you consider them to be part of your team, a partner, and on your side? And do you want to be on their side? Perspective means so much. Attitude means so much. And so we need to pay attention to that. Where are we coming from? Adversarial? Get on the freeway. You'll find that. You don't need it at all. We need a partner. We need a colleague. We need an ally. And so, we need to be one. Right. If that is... And to tune out our work, our wonderful skills in the rest of our lives that may be rewarded in a million ways to recognize that's not our role when we're with our significant others, our loved ones. So we need to switch hats and it's a whole different set of skills. And adapt those and think of them as just as important and maybe more important than the ones for our professional life. Right. And I think it's really important that we are ourselves and not trying to put on, you know, somebody that we're not. Because when you come home, you want to just strip down and be who you really are and not have to be another role. Right. To be who we are, we do need to pay attention if who we are with our lives, our loved ones, is pretty critical, then we need to think about adjusting that. But I think that, like, I see a lot of couples that are individuals that are dating and they'll say, I don't know if so-and-so liked me. I don't know how they felt about me. And I say, I think the important thing is how did you feel when you were with them? Do you feel good about who you were? Do you feel relaxed like they like you and they respect you and you're just comfortable with them? We need to look at that because, how we feel about ourselves when we're with someone else is very likely a key indicator that that person might be a good choice. Not guessing how they feel about us because if both people feel pretty good about themselves and at ease and just open with each other when they're with someone, oh, might be a good, it's a good sign. So we don't want to push it. We want to just have somebody like us just as we are or maybe like us a little better than we like ourselves. Yeah, and hopefully we like ourselves enough. Self-love is always a good thing too and a healthy dose. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and listen to our intuition. You know? Right. Pay attention to how we feel. I think we've been given so many instincts. You know, if you look at a small, a child or an animal, if they're fearful or uncomfortable, you can't get them to hang out. They're gone. They just won't do it. Adults talk themselves into ignoring their instincts. I'm really a fan of getting back in touch with what we're noting and what we feel when we're with somebody else or we're in a certain situation that we need to trust that it's a gift and being at ease and finding the time go by and we really enjoyed ourselves with this person even if we didn't say a lot. Good sign. It's a good sign. We didn't have to be on because we're just ourselves and they like us that way and we like them that way. It's a gift when we find out that we're not alone. It's a gift when we find out Exactly. Exactly. So Dr. Jacob, I would like to thank you very much for coming in and speaking to us. If you would like to contact Dr. Jacob, she's at SusanJacobPhD.com That's S-U-S-A-N-J-A-C-O-B-P-H-D.com and she's also at 949-851-5022 and I'd like to thank you very much for listening tonight to Psych 101. I'm Julianne Good and please stay in tune for the Qumran Report. Thank you and have a wonderful day and take care of yourself and each other. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.! Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.