Animated vs live-action superhero debate

Outro Music Hey guys, welcome to Angry Dorks. I don't get bored of that song at all, ever. Like, I still like it. We are here with Matt Blackwood, who is now making noises. That actually worked really well. Good job, Matt. And then Ed Greer. Hey, what's up? I don't have a noise. Yeah. Yeah. Mine is the beam from Shaft. Bam, bam, bam. We're all here. I was not here last week because I was telling... Oh, no, that was in Vegas for that. And then I had to tell jokes in Bakersfield. You guys... How'd that go, by the way? Because I couldn't do that because I had to, like, do stuff. The guy... He's not listening to this podcast, I'm sure. He's definitely not listening to this podcast. He... He is a terrible host. He was not funny, so... And then he would do material between... Are you open for Jay Leno this week? Yeah, this motherfucker. No. I won't say his name. Jay Leno is 5,000% funnier than this. Like, a zillion times. He... We would dig out of a hole because he would do material between every comic. And, like, five minutes of weird rambling. Nuts. Horrible. Horrible. And then he didn't have a hotel room for the second night. So he gave us $100, right? And so we go and get the hotel room. It was $65 plus $25. And he wasn't going to be on the next two shows. That's how America does it. And it's worked out pretty well so far. Are you just going to interrupt me with sounds? Yeah. Okay, cool. You got to get used to this, man. This is hanging around. This was really, really funny last week. That's a justification. All right, go ahead. Okay. Well, that works for me. And so then the guy... So he was like, I'm not going to be at the next two shows. So what about the $25 deposit? I was like, oh, I'll just take it out of my pocket. Okay. And give it to you. And then, so I went and I gave him $25 plus the $10 a change because it was 65. So that's $35, 65 plus 3,500. Not very complicated, right? Okay. So then he emails me or on Facebook messages me and was like, I did the math and you like got $26 extra. And I was like, I don't know how you do math, but in my world, certain numbers add up to certain numbers. Every single time. Hey man, this is big time show business. Yeah, it was ridiculous. But the Friday and Saturday night with the other dude, fantastic. There were small crowds, but the crowds were awesome. And he got good, he got hosts that were solid enough that it made the show flow. And the last show on Saturday night was so much fun. It was one of those nights where I was like, I guess I won't film and I should have definitely filmed. I basically had a Comedy Central special that night. Like it was that good. And it was like, I don't know, I don't know. I was like, ah, of course I didn't film on this night. That's how it works, right? That's the way it works. So it was a good time. It's like when you go to the doctor and you're like, well, it doesn't hurt right now, but something's going on. Or when you go to the doctor and you don't like change your underwear and stuff, man. That's the day they want to do all that naked stuff. You're just like, oh no. I've never experienced that before. Yeah, I've never had that happen. What are we talking about? I always change my underwear and take showers every single day. Every day. Hey, you used that correctly. Every day I'm showering, showering, showering, showering. Okay, so what are we talking about today? Oh yeah, we didn't even tell you. Today we're talking about... Did I forget to do that? Yeah, we both did. Today we're talking about animated features movies compared to live action movies. I mean, comic books, sci-fi. But just in general. And how much better or worse they are. Because recently I watched Batman, Dark Knight Returns, the cartoon part one and two. And I gotta tell you guys, it is literally one of the coolest things I've ever seen, period. I mean, did you watch it? No. You should do that immediately. I don't give a shit. Why not? Well, because I've read the fucking comics. So eventually I'll get to it, but it's not high on my list of priorities. I know exactly how it ends. And if they change shit, then I'll just be annoyed that they changed shit. They didn't. They didn't change a thing. No, they never do on those cartoons. And they're great, but I mean, it's just not, it's not something that like, it's going to be way down the queue for me because it's like, yeah, eventually I'll put that on while I'm doing something else. Like while I'm making a Heroclix team or while I'm, you know, while I'm doing something, while I'm doing some emailing because I know exactly how it ends. Well, I mean, I get that. But the one thing that I would say about some of these adaptations and whatnot is, like Batman Year One, I've probably read Batman Year One more than any other comic book ever. Yeah. And when I watched the movie, I watched it very quickly, but I felt like, I was like, here we go. But like, when you see what's important in regards to screenplay versus what's important versus book, and they have such a better handle on it than movie makers do, it really kind of illuminates a big problem that I think movie places have. Well, I, you know, I did watch Year One. I had never read the comic because I'm not a huge DC guy. You know what I mean? Certain things. Well, who is? I mean, right, right. I mean, certain things, but like, I, yeah, I had never read Batman Year One and watching it, I was like, oh, this is pretty cool. I mean, it's really Commissioner Gordon's story. I mean, and he's more badass in it. And, you know, you almost want there to not be a Batman. Well, that's what you would think. And, well, I'm saying like, Commissioner Gordon is awesome in it. But, she is pretty awesome. That is true. I will, I gotta ask you this though. The Catwoman in the comic, is she a weird, super tall, mannish buff? Did you guys see the cartoon? Yeah. I mean, what was up with that? I think that was Frank Miller really trying to do more of a tough girl, Catwoman character. Whereas before, it was always about her feminine wiles. Whereas I think Frank Miller wanted to recontextualize it as a bitch that's all about dude's weaknesses. Yeah. Would so fucking hate dudes. And it would take such a fucking man to make her go, that's a man. Yeah. And that's Batman. You know what I mean? I'm completely okay with that. But she's also a cat burglar that's like seven feet tall. Well, I mean, she's tall for a woman, but that was- She's tall. Anne Hathaway's supposed to be tall for a woman, right? I mean, none of these bitches could do flips. There's a difference between tall for a woman and tall for, like she's way, like she's towering over Batman. You're like, ooh, that's weird. And I'll tell you what, she was ahead, head over Batman in that cartoon. I don't think she was head over. She looked like Aeon Flux, but with a shaved head. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that. I saw her stand a head taller than Batman. I think you're having a bad memory situation going on right now. but here's the thing, like I said, it's just like when, when I looked at the difference between Batman Year One versus Batman Begins, they use a shit ton of stuff in theory from Batman Year One and Batman Begins. You could see it from the bat scene or whatever, but look how much more arresting the bat scene is in the fucking comic book or in the animated thing. Yeah, it's good. When you look at it, it wouldn't be that much harder to shoot. Well, and the cartoon allows for, for action that you can't quite pull off. Right. Like, like him kind of going off, like the bats covering up the shit and then him, them going off the pier and shit. That wouldn't really happen in so-called real life. You know, dudes wouldn't drive their car in a field of bats until they ran off a fucking pier. They'd probably just stop and go, fuck these bats. Yeah. No, no, because that bat flew into the window and then landed on the, the gas. Oh yeah, well, the bats are trained. Batman trains the bats. I think the fight scenes look so good in cartoons. I just thought it was so sick when you look at Batman, like the cool thing about Batman or any of these superheroes, even Superman, is that he's so, they're all so having to rescue motherfuckers while they're kicking ass. Yeah. You know, he's saving cats. He's trying to save bums. He was super bummed out that that bum got burned up. Yeah. With, the police thing and then Commissioner Gordon not being able to make those dudes not fuck with Batman. Yeah. And how important it was for him to escape from that situation and how he became the people's hero in that moment. Yeah. There's never a moment like that in Batman Begins. Not fucking one. Yeah, exactly. There isn't one moment where the people go, God damn, this bat motherfucker is where it's at. We shall throw our support behind him. Even that, you know, even that stupid ass Spider-Man movie had a manufactured ass like scene where the city gets behind Spider-Man and that's what you need. This is myth-making, motherfucker. Get with it. Exactly. The scene in Spider-Man 2 worked a lot better. I like that. I actually like the Spider-Man 2. I agree with that assessment very much so. That train scene, holy shit. That was a pretty badass scene. That's the one that makes your hands, your hair stand up in the back of your head. Well, that's that Alvin Sargent shit. Alvin Sargent has been writing movies before God was a boy. So he knows how movies go and that's him. I gotta say, that's all him. Yeah, that scene was amazing. He's straining himself to his utmost limit that's the other badass thing. Anytime you push a character who's as strong as Spider-Man or, you know, that sort of thing where he's super strong but he's not like, he's not invincible. Right. You know, so like, and you push him as far as you can push him and then make him and then have people support him at the same time. You're like, that's, yeah, it makes a myth and it's awesome. Let's talk generally for a second. Okay. The thing is, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's undeniable. In animation, you can do way, way more. Than you can ever do. You can ever do in live action. So why is it so much cooler when it's live action? I'm not saying the movies are better. I don't think they necessarily are. It's a case-by-case basis. I'm saying, why is it so much bigger a deal for us? Is it just because they can? Like, for instance, we had the Max Fleischer cartoons of Superman in the 40s and then, you know, in 79 when they're like, you will believe a man can fly. That was the tagline because they're like, holy, shit, we made flight look not silly. It doesn't look like he's jumping off a trampoline and going, whoo, just flew a long way, Lois. You know, like, and everybody was so fucking excited about it, but is that the thing? I mean, like, by the way, the effect of flying in Superman actually still looks really fucking good. I watched Superman 2 the other day. Whatever practical shit with the plates and whatever they did, that still looks fucking good. Did you see, I re-watched Superman 2 while I was on the road and, uh, uh, the fight scene between, uh, Zod and the other two whose names slip my mind at the moment, it's pretty good. It's not bad. Yeah, I mean, there's a part where he, I mean, he punches Zod through, or is it, yeah, through a roof sideways and you see him go through a couple of buildings. Right, right, right. And it's, it actually looked pretty good and they did. Especially for then. Yeah. The one thing I would say is this, uh, I don't know that, I think it's in movies, it's a combination of, frankly, a lot of times, a superior story and then the execution of superhuman whatever's really, as some men at home, like, I don't know, like, all these DC movies are super awesome. Really, if they were to do those same things, literally shot for shot with new technology, with people, those would make super sick movies, but would they be as sick as something like The Matrix? Think about it. Think about the level of story. Think about the level of investment that you have. Think about the newness of the characters and all that character development that you get with Neo. Think about, people sleep on The Matrix. We've talked, we've sucked The Matrix' dick a bunch, but think about the hero's journey that he goes through. For fucking 50 minutes of the movie, he's a piece of shit. I just want my girlfriend to know I did not get in on that Matrix dick second action. That, that, that, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. You sucked the dick bouquet. No, I was in Zion at the time, man. You sucked the dick bouquet. You know that fist bouquet? Like a, like a bag of dicks. Yeah, you sucked the dick bouquet. No, no, no, man. I took, I, I think they slipped me a blue pill. Yeah, you got a Matrix roofie and you're a ho now. Well, and I mean, I guess part of it is that when you see real people, it's, it's easier to relate to them than cartoons. Even though cartoons still evoke emotion, when you see something happening to a person who's real, it's easier to put yourself in that position maybe. But also, and there's all the, all this, a backstory that we're like, you know what I mean? Like when you see a hot bitch with big tits and nice round ass and she's 22 years old and she's into you, I'm sorry, that's all, that's a lot of backstory that you've already filled in. Like a lot of attraction backstory. Yeah, literally back story. You know what I'm saying? Anybody? Backstory. That's, that's what it's like. She's got a hot ass. That's what it's like for us nerds to see Superman on screen. We don't need it explained who the fuck Superman is. Yeah, we know. We know where the story comes from. So we got to understand that when real deal movies do stuff, they got to establish characters. They got to do a bunch of shit. Look at the last James Bond movie. They spent fucking an hour and a half, an hour and a half, with, they Dark Knight Returns to Batman. I mean, James Bond up. He could barely do his job anymore. He was super fucking injured. He could barely pass his physicals. He didn't pass his mental evaluation. Just, he's just a rogue fuck up with a bum shoulder. Yeah. And he saves the day, motherfucker, because I'm really Bond, yo. Yeah, this last movie was really good. There was so much more character development and even that, this motherfucker's had 35 movies and there was more character development than that, then I'm sorry, the killer elite or fucking, you know, all-star Superman, for that, fucking matter. It's so much, so we look at these things and we fawn over them so much, but you gotta understand how much harder it is to do a real deal movie, which is why I'm loving what I'm hearing about this Zack Snyder shit because frankly, A, he's dealing with dudes who are as powerful as he is. Zod comes to this planet a bad motherfucker. Kal-El is a scientist's son raised by a fucking farmer. He is nothing compared to the general of the fucking Kryptonian army who also happens to be like Yasser Arafat slash fucking whoever the dude is. Yeah. The dude we just killed. All the dudes we just killed in the last 10 years. He's basically all those dudes but with Superman's powers. Yeah. And he's coming to Earth. That's number one. Number two, they spent a lot of time establishing why the fuck, like you, Ron, why would a dude this powerful be good? Yep. What could make him be good? They spent about probably 40, 50 minutes in the movie doing that shit and then I bet you the last hour is just him punching huge shit a bunch. Yeah. That's the shit. That's what you want. Show me that. I want to see that. Well, and it sounds like they're doing a little bit of an interesting a little bit of a dark, not darker, but more along the lines of like, oh yeah, by the way, he's the only one of his race pretty much and now he's got to fight the other ones of his race. Right. As soon as he meets someone else like himself, they want to kill him. Yeah. That's this dude's fucking life. Yeah. That's shitty. I meet another fucking cool black comedian geek motherfucker at some club and he wants to murder me Highlander style. That sucks. That can only be one geek black nerd. Hey, good job. You got to stop with that. You got to stop with that. The is it's kind of like the hey man, I'm supposed to be the token black guy at this party. Oh, damn. Let's have a black off. All right. Hey, my girlfriend's name is Aaron. Well, my girlfriend's name is Heidi. Fuck you in. All right, go. He just have a fuck at us. You got to have a rap off to a rap battle. I just called it a rap off. Nice. Good work, Ron. But it has to be kind of whack. Yeah. Kind of whack. Yeah. We got to have to be whack. But yeah, so I think I think that's a rubble that rubble the Barney rubble that we run into fucking rhyming Cockney slang Barney rubble trouble. That's the rubble that we run into when we look at this stuff is that we have so much backstory and so much respect for the characters. How long do you think how long do you think Cockney people spend like interpreting each other? They're like, it's like, oh, man, this is a real Diane. This is like, all right, hold on. That could be Ryan. They like pull out their rhyming dictionary. They're like, oh, is my house on fire? What's going on? Now, guess again, mate. Oh, fuck. I had to fucking guess all day. Is me Julie blowing? I got herpes, is what you're saying. Yeah, you got the Xerxes. What? Got to get those Xerxes off your wanker. All right, but yeah, off your wanker. That's so stupid. I don't know. Did you guys watch the mini movie animated series of the Clone Wars? The original, not the CG thing later on. Not the CG one, but the drawn one. The original that was done while the movies were coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gindi Tartakovsky. That was excellent. Yeah. And that was an example of a better story. Like, I mean, despite that it looked cool. Better story, better action, better everything. Yeah. I mean, it really, and it was like. But you're comparing it to something that was shit. Yeah, I know. But also. I don't mean to demean it, but I don't mean to demean it at all. I think that's a. It's badass. It's badass, and everybody should watch it. If you haven't seen it, you absolutely should watch it. I think you can get a DVD of it, right? Yeah, I believe so. Like the whole thing straight through. But again, though, again, though, here's the thing. But that's my point. I hate this conception, though, that most of the important parts of animated movies, I don't like this conception that you can do so much more in animation. You honestly can't. Can you have somebody call somebody a cocksucking motherfucker in it? Nope. Nope. Can you have somebody fucking for real? Nope. Can you have people really fucking getting down and kissing and shit for real? Nope. It all looks like fucking two Chinese drawings. So, I mean, let's be realistic. I think that Mace Windu scene where he fucks up a thousand robots, there was a thousand, fifteen hundred robots on screen at a time in Phantom Menace, so he could have fucked up fifteen hundred robots, couldn't he? Yep. If they shot the scene, they could have did it, but they didn't. That's what I'm saying is like if they could have made that cartoon, they could have made a movie like that. Right. I mean, dude, when I was a kid and I envisioned Jedi fighting each other, it wasn't a bunch of fuckers ballet dancing while some CGI shit was in the background. Planets were cracking in half, lightning was coming out of people's asses, lightsabers were fighting themselves while the fucking Jedi's duked it out. Yeah. You know what I mean? Weird shit like that. The question is, is it that the people who are making live action movies, is it that they're limiting their own imagination when they're thinking about the sequences? When they're thinking about these set pieces, these fights, are they going like, oh yeah, we could do this, and they're not thinking through of like, yeah, we could do anything. Well, I think it's a little bit of that and I think it's also like a little bit of Dark Knight Rises disease where that movie cost $180 million to make and I guess they had to build a lot of sets and stuff, but dude, that lawnmower looking ass bat copter piece of shit, fuck that, fuck that whole storyline, start over. Make a bat wing again, fuck it. If that was the way that Batman died, if I was writing that script and I got done with that, I'd be like, man, it's been a, it's been a long, arduous, you know, thing, mate, blah, blah, because you know, homeboy's English, but I would revise that. I'd be like, is this the way that Batman dies? Sacrificing himself, super lame. He's not jumping on a bomb in front of people and bits of caper and little kids mouths and shit and they know that Batman saved them. He literally flew a lawnmower into the fucking horizon. That's not a heroic act. Go fuck yourself. Start over. That's not cinematic and it's a piece of shit. Hey, that's the same way my father went. Well, your father sucks and he's working out the autopilot. That's what we told him every day, man. Every day. All I'm saying is, like, just to conclude with my portion of that jazz, is just, I just, I don't think it's necessarily them not having enough imagination, but I do think it is harder to do giant sequences so you do kind of have to cherry pick more. Yeah. But I just think they cherry pick whack shit. Like, Nolan looking at his budget was like, oh, mate, a lot of the stuff that's going to cost a lot of money is this Batplane stuff. Instead of going, fuck that Batplane. Yeah. What can I do to make Batman more of the hero, the people's champ? Yeah. Why couldn't Batman be doing shit slightly more debilitated and more militaristic? Yeah. And then have a counterinsurgent force fight against him instead of him being all broken down and shit. Well, and also have him, you can set up a story where he escapes for some weird shit like hanging from chains from a roof of a building just wrapped, wrapped totally in chains and the lights go off and he's out of it. And then that way you set up an explosion somewhere that he's sacrificing himself for, but he's set up the whole thing to disappear. Yeah. And he's just, he's just done another thing. And it's also more Batman. Another magic type shit. I get tired of Batman. There's, there's two schools of thought on Batman. One, or there's three. One fearsome night creature who you don't know if it's a person or not. Yeah. I think that's the best one. Okay. It's the one that would work to fight crime. Yep. As soon as they see that you're just an asshole with some shit on his belt, you're going to die. Does anybody else feel like Batman, when he comes across a scarecrow's fear gas, should be like, I'm going to use a little bit of this fear gas. In the comics, he does. Yeah. He always does. That's the thing he does. He drags everybody's shit. I mean, that could be like one pouch in the utility bag. Right. I would have mad fear gas. Hey, this guy, this guy saw me with my mask off. You know what? Right. Dude, exactly. Neuralize this fucker. What did he look like? He had like 90 really sharp teeth. Okay. Well, you're free to go. He had a pimple that was a snake. You're like, what? But yeah, so I think. Bruce Wayne's like, okay, well, I do have a pit bull that is a snake, but hear me out. It's a very rare specimen. Well, I mean, I just really feel like, you know, with just getting back to the difference between animated movies versus live action movies, I do believe that animated movies in general have more of a, they get to fuck with the physics and you can't fuck with it. Like I was watching a Catwoman thing. Catwoman, Catwoman did like a reverse backflip onto a light post or some shit like that. You would never accept that in a movie under any circumstances, which is another reason why the Matrix is so awesome. Unless the guy had superpowers. Dude, the Matrix is so awesome because think about it. It's the same thing as Sucker Punch, really. There's this fantasy world that exists where you're really powerful while you're in that world and some of those skills might or might not translate to the real world. Some of those braveries might translate to the real world. It's just a much better explanation of it. It's much better explanation of it. Of course, before we got the explanation of it, when all you saw were those snippets in the preview and you're like, what the fuck is going on? And then when you're watching that first 15 minutes and you're like, what the fuck is going on? Why can she jump across it? Why can that dude follow her and jump across it? I'm like, this is badass. And yeah, it is the most badass thing you've ever seen. And then the explanation they give is like, oh, that makes sense. Let's do this. And then you're in. These dudes are unfettered by the program because they're immune to it to a certain degree and we are slaves to it, but we, we can be infinitely greater than them because of our infinite potential. Well, that's perfect. And it's, and it's also, it was also a story of like, I mean, arguably the power of the human mind because at first, though Neo is good because he's naturally, and he's like Michael Jordan, he's got a little bit of a natural skill, but as soon as he starts believing in himself is when he actually reaches his potential. And that's, and when it, when he puts me put in a situation that he has to accomplish it and starts believing in himself, that's when, that's when everything starts to happen. And that's, that's the best. My feeling on, I was gonna say, my feeling on why, like you're talking about the Catwoman, the, the backflip thing onto the light post and we were talking earlier about how some of the fight scenes are so badass in cartoons. I feel like though, the reason that everybody's not talking about them all the time and they're talking about, oh man, that sword fight in Rob Roy, you know what I mean? Like, like why, why they keep those, those things in their head is because, you know, is why they always remember, you know, Conan chopping that dude's head off and like, that's the reason we keep those, that those are the ones that affect us more is that our standards immediately change when we're watching an animated thing. Our standards just go like, weigh the fuck up. It's like, yeah, I know cause you can do anything. So like immediately to be impressed, we need a fuck ton more. You know, she's got a backflip onto that thing. If she just did something that in real life would look fucking badass, you know, nobody would give a shit. Right. And, but you know what though? I think it's being less and less that way because when I was looking at like how Batman was fighting in year one, he looked pretty sick. It's very, it's very good art when they can make, when they can put weight to that. Right. And, and you are absolutely right. The fight with Gordon versus those dirty cops, there was weight to it. Right. And you felt the violence of it. Right. It was done extraordinarily well. Right. But I'm saying in a lot of animated movies, it's just not there. And to be honest, it's also not, it's also lost in movies that are hugely CG oriented. Fair enough. I agree. Big Michael Bay movies and stuff, you know, like, okay, it's been my contention for a little while and I only, I don't bother with it in anything except in my own screenwriting. I just don't bother with like giant fucking robots fighting because I feel like the giant fucking robots, we really don't give a shit about the action. I mean, are there people really going like, oh man, when Optimus Prime did that crazy move and hit, I don't feel like we really give a shit. Joe Starr does, but, Joe Starr jizzes all over fucking Transformers. I hope, I hope that, although, does he like the movies? I don't even know, honestly. We have to have him on and just talk about Transformers. Yeah, we do. stuck together as Transformers comics. I don't know anybody that knows the movie, that loves the movies. I'd be, I'd be very surprised if he loves this movie. I heard the third one was good. I haven't seen it. I have heard the opposite. I would say, here's the deal. The second one is super fucking shitty. The third one, honestly, bro, besides it not being as funny as the first one, because the first one was funny. Anybody who, I defy somebody to watch the first one one time and tell me they didn't laugh sometimes at some of the antics that were going on. There was a lot of cute, funny stuff. Them trying to hide Optimus in a backyard and he's stepping on the flower pots and shit like that. There's a lot of really funny stuff. There's an E.T. aspect to it. Right, exactly. Whereas number three, number three, I didn't have a problem with the first movie. It was a fun movie. It just, it wasn't worth $200 million. The third one, the third one, what they do is one thing I wanted to comment on in this sort of thing with both CG and animated movies though. They make you feel the weight of a dude that's inside a transformer car. Like there's a scene where Bumblebee's like driving and shit and he's forced to transform and then Sam Wickwicky just flies the fuck out into space. Basically, and he's tumbling around and fucking Bumblebee has to go navigate all this dangerous shit and then keep Homeboy alive, grab him up and jam him back in his chest and transform him back into a car. Yeah. That's fucking sick. I saw that sequence and that's cool. That's interesting. Yeah. But you have to include human danger in robots. Absolutely. 100%. And the question is, I'm really curious to see what Guillermo del Toro is going to do in Pacific Rim because you've got the people inside those giant robots. So, you know, are they going to feel it? Whatever. I don't know. I will say this. Did you guys see Robot Jax when you were kids? It's like the only, it's the only American movie that's the kaiju or whatever they're called. Oh. The guys in the giant robots. Yeah. That they tried it a long time ago. As far as I know, it's the only live action American thing that they've done. And that was just robots fighting other robots as sort of a gladiatorial situation. It was, right. And it was more of the Top Gun type thing where it's like, when it gets to the action of the robots fighting, like it's a little less interesting. When it gets to the, to the jets fighting in Top Gun, they have to, I mean, what do they have to do? They have to come up with the craziest shit. Oh, hey, he'll turn upside down and hover like six inches above the other one. Which would never. Which, yeah, which is, okay, first off, probably not possible. And if possible, so insanely dangerous that you're like, okay, why do they have to do it? They have to ramp it up that much because the regular action of it is just not that interesting. Well, I don't know. I really enjoyed, I remember Top Gun specifically watching the, the dog fight part where there's like seven planes. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, I'm saying that you enjoyed it because they ramped it up. I'm saying what it looks like in real life, if you've ever seen footage of it, it's kind of boring. Well, I mean, but that's movies, but that's movies in general. So, so that being a thing. But, a fight between a guy and another guy, they don't really have to ramp it up. If you're watching two guys just fight a little knife fight, they could do it exactly as a real knife fight looks. And it's fucking intense. The knife fight in fucking Saving Private Ryan is one of the most intense things I've ever seen on screen. Right. When he finally is just being overpowered by the knots and he's like, no, no, no, hold on, hold on, as he slowly shoves the knife into him. Like, I'm like, oh my fucking God, you know, the knife fight in, in, Eastern Promises where Viggo Mortensen gets attacked while he's in the fucking sauna naked and he's got to fight off these two dudes that are both coming at him with knives. Holy fucking shit. That's what I'm saying. You, you can just take that situation as it would really play out with a dude that's badass and trained and doing his best to stay alive and motherfucker gets stabbed and he gets cut and whatever and he, but he ends up winning the fight. Spoiler alert. Viggo Mortensen wins. And his dick is out the whole time, ladies. But here's the thing though. I, I don't argue with that point at all, but I think it's a fake ass straw man that a lot of movies do where it's like they'll have a bunch of robots checking each other off but nobody fighting naked with a knife. Nobody doing anything real in juxtaposition to this stuff. Like, let's say there's a scene in Pacific Rim, right? There's a bad guy where he's working with the evil monsters or whatever or he's making sure the monsters beat up this team. I've made my deal with the monsters. You're gonna have the Paul Reiser character. Maybe there's a dude who thinks that he's gonna Lex Luthor the world up after these monsters end up tearing up and all the people that are stopping him. He's gonna be like a Captain Planet villain. All the people who are stopping him are these Pacific Rim fuckers, Idris Elba and everybody. So he sabotages that team. So fucking robot monsters are fucking the main guy up and then they're having a fight on the arm of a defunct robot. You know what I'm saying? While monsters are underneath them snapping their jaws or whatever and whoever's gonna fall off or get eaten or whatever. You know what I mean? You can juxtapose something, real, with the CGI thing. Us having a knife fight on the arm of a robot and then me pushing you into a giant monster's mouth, that's badass. That's everything that you want. You know what I mean? So I think more movies should concentrate on that sort of juxtaposition. I always note that Jurassic Park is, and this is not to be argued, so I know you guys might want to, but it's not to be. Jurassic Park is the single best use of CGI ever to this day. Because they juxtapose the CGI monsters with large, 14-ton, practical T-Rex heads. So you see a CGI T-Rex run up, then a real T-Rex head slam your shit. A T-Rex leg that they really built move and make patterns in the mud. And then a CGI thing going off into the woods, you can't see it. And then a big, real T-Rex head slams your car. I don't know how old y'all were when that came out, but that movie fucking scared me. I was 10 and I was genuinely scared. I was a little older, but it was scary. And the thing is, because they actually did kill a couple of those motherfuckers, you know, I mean, they didn't kill the kids, but they, you know, they killed some people around the kids. Very close to the kids. Very, very fucking close. You know, and a couple people, you know, a guy getting chomped in half, you know, fucking Samuel L. Jackson's arm. You know what I mean? Like, they did it, like, Spielberg did such a good job of keeping the terror real in that movie. But that's the whole point that I'm saying is that I feel like it's always removed a degree when we go into animation and it's a little bit removed a degree when you go into CG. In general, it's removed a degree from feeling real and I feel like it affects us far less. That is, that is my contention, which is why I'm just like, if I had a giant robot thing, which I, I don't know, they've never appealed to me for that reason, but if I had a giant robot thing, I would be absolutely trying to figure out what is the human element in that. And like I said, that Bumblebee scene, that's a really cool idea. Dude, I mean, honestly, my fucking, my fucking, my fucking, my fucking, my fucking, my fucking, my fucking solution to the Pacific Rim thing is like, okay, so the Pacific Rim guy is having a big fight with a monster. The monster's using his four claws to just tear out all the integral, integral, you know, circuits and shit, fucking this guy's robot up, but he's really close to the final monster. He's got his arms, he's choking the final monster with his robot hands and all of a sudden the servos don't work. He's in this death grip with the monster, so he has to eject right into the monster's fucking face with like his little space suit on. He's got, he's got to go spelunking into things mouth and drop some charges off in that bitch or something. The human element returns. You know what I mean? That sort of thing is what I would want. He's that close to his face and he's just able to like, or he just pulls out the light machine gun and just, you know, that mini right through the eye or whatever, he's able to just get to his brain. If that fucking happens in that movie, you and I are going to high five, my friend. Fucking A. And I bet you it's going to be pretty good, but I just, the human element is easier to go into CGI movies and even like animation, but the way that, like I said, they did Batman in year one. I haven't seen The Dark Knight, but there's a couple other like really interesting, like Superman movies are pretty solid. The Superman movies are pretty good. I mean, All-Star Superman was pretty good, but again, they get that boost from all that continuity. Yeah. So it's kind of hard. And here's a question. If they made, if, if let's say they do, let's say they make a Flash movie, like what run live action Flash movie or a live action Flash movie, could they just make it from a comic book? And would that be okay? I mean, if they made it from a Flash comic book, you know, like from a run, it would be really bad because Flash sucks. I know. That's, that's actually halfway I bring him up because movie wise, the dude just runs fast. A lot of people love the Jeff Johns run. A lot of people love the Mark Waid run, but those are big runs that build with, okay, now there's this villain. Now there's this villain. Now there's this, and now here's all the villains doing an Avengers style team up. And that makes a difference. What you need to do to have a cool Flash movie is come up with, honestly, I think Flash works better in the Justice League movie. Agreed. Which is why I love the idea of suddenly, because you can't have this the whole time because it's too powerful. But when you suddenly see he goes as fast as he possibly can when he's not scared of, when he has no choice and he goes so fast that everything else is stopped around him. Right. Right. And you see him running and like jumping on bullets and things like that. You know what I mean? Like just going all out. You have to have that scene once in a movie. It's almost like the Hulk. You can only unleash that shit once or twice in the movie. Well, I already know exactly how you use the Flash in a Justice League movie, which is someone gets Kryptonite to fucking put soups down and it's a Kryptonite bomb that's going to kill him. He grabs the bomb and fucking across the goddamn ocean. I just think that I think that actually is very similar to what they had in the Justice League movie. And I will say this. The scene as it was described by Adam Brody in an interview is basically like he's got this bomb. It's going to go off. He runs first because he's running so fast that basically everything is stopped. He runs first all the way home and kisses his wife on the cheek and then runs out and blows up. And I was like, that almost brought a tear to my eye the way he described it. I was like, that's fucking amazing. That's how you have to use flash. I never got to read that, but that sounds awesome. And I kind of wish that they had just done it. Well, like I said, they're kicking themselves after the Avengers. I'll tell you that. I really think as far as like movies, Marvel characters are better because every single Marvel character has some human foible that you can really point to. I'm the best there is. Thank you. Which is make movies. But yeah, because think about it. Oh, by the way, did you guys see the Wolverine trailer trailer? I haven't seen it yet. It's not the trailer for the movie. It's the trailer for the trailer for the movie, which apparently we're doing now. It's on, what do you call that thing? Not Vivo. Vimeo. Vine. Vine? Vine, yeah. Anyway, so it's like, it's a six second trailer for the trailer. You have to see it. Fucking Silver Samurai and Jean Grey. Okay. You see both of them. Oh. Only for a flash each, but holy shit, you have to see this thing. Well, you know what? And there you go. Trailer for a trailer. Yeah. I'm already sold on this shit. Honestly, that really already is like, that makes me interested. But see, and there you go though. Look what we're doing now. Look what we're getting to. Wolverine, popping claws, even as shitty as they've done Wolverine, and Wolverine's been done shitty more often than he's been done good over the course of this whole Hugh Jackman era. Okay. Now, Wolverine popping his claws and taking a couple bullets to the dome while he's doing it. Okay. While he's stabbing ninjas or samurai, whatever. Yeah. How much more compelling is that than a motherfucker running around a bunch? Yeah. It's just more visceral. It's something you can connect with. Everybody stabbed themselves a couple times. You can tell three of those things made out of unbreakable metal stabbing into your chest because you're a bad guy. So much of that. And the thing about Superman is that he can go so fast and he's so strong that that brings it up to a level. But once you pull in people that are equally strong, you can beat the fucking, fucking shit out of Superman. And that's what they better do. That's what they have to do. They need to. I mean, like, it didn't look at all. It didn't look good at all in Superman 4 when Sunboy beats the shit out of him or whatever. But, I think it's called Nuclear Man, actually. It was called Nuclear Man. It doesn't look that great. But I'm saying like, it sucks so bad. You can make, you can beat the ever-loving shit out of Superman. You beat the ever-loving shit out of Flash, it's like, he's a dude. He's a regular dude. Right. Why'd you, why'd you do that? That's all you say. Hey man, that's what I said to do. I said, break that motherfucker's leg. Well, I mean, so like, Marvel characters, if you look at it, DC will continue to dominate the animated world because of their characters having slightly more gravitas than Marvel characters. Yeah. But Marvel characters have more, I don't know if gravitas is the right word, a history. Maybe history. And they're more iconic. Epicness. Iconic or mythic nature. More DC has that. Whereas Marvel kind of has characters where it's like, if you did a Spider-Man animated movie, man, half of that shit would be this motherfucker being broke and being sad and shit. You know what I mean? So you can do that in a movie. I will say this, the 90s Spider-Man cartoon lived only on the, the voiceover. Yeah. The guy playing Spider-Man selling the jokes and selling the, selling the pathos of, yep, gonna make a joke again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like Spider-Man, I mean, the Marvel characters are just made for movies because they have so many psychological foibles and weird shit. Yeah. Idiosyncrasies that basically actors love to dig into those. Leave Hulk alone! Who the fuck wants to play Superman? Really? Yep. It's a big bunch of, all right, Kurt Russell. It's, it's a big bunch of shit. I'm not tall or white enough though, so. Yeah. It's a big bunch of shit to try to play these super iconic characters. You will always fail, playing Batman. Whatever voice you do for Batman, you sound like a fucking asshole unless you're Kevin Conroy. I don't understand why Ryan Reynolds, I know he's a nerd, but it's, I don't understand why he would take Green Lantern when he, he already has weight. It's not like he's being plucked out of obscurity to like, hey, you want to play Green Lantern? It's like, yeah, fucking you bet I do. I mean, you'd think that, that he would go, look, you see where my strengths lie. I should be the Flash. I should be Wally West, fast talking and blah, blah, blah, blah. Unless you're going to make Kyle Rainier as a, as a Flash. I should be the smart ass guy. Yeah. And I love that he's still gunning for the Deadpool movie. But again, like, you'd think that he would be one of the many voices crying out in the darkness during that Wolverine shoot going like, guys, this is retarded. What are we doing? But that, that's, that's the thing that I always, that always bothers me about these so-called actors that are so into geek stuff. They're still fucking actors. These are people who will gain 40 pounds to get to the top in like 10 minutes of fucking fame. These are people who eat nothing but beet juice for 27 months so they can get super fucking skinny. These people are malleable to the nth degree. Do you fucking think they're going to crusade for anything they don't, they're not directly tied to? Fuck no. They're always willing to compromise. They're the fucking Barack Obama of fucking people. Have you, have you, have you heard Jim Jeffries rant about actors on Legit? No. Oh my God. He's like, he's like, look, what's the, what's the girl's name? Uh, uh, Anna Paquin. Won an Oscar at 11. Tatum O'Neill was 10. You know what I mean? She won an Oscar. If a 10 year old can do your job better than you do, then your job is a bullshit job. If you're not watching Legit by the way, like I just found that show. It's a very good show. Jim Jeffries is kind of amazing. I've been hearing all the white boy comics talk about him for a while, but uh, he's really like actually pretty fucking funny. Cool. I'll check him out. Yeah, I watched his thing, his Netflix thing, which everybody's Netflix specials. It was like the worst special they ever did, but you know, I watched it and it was fucking good as hell. I really liked it. You know, if that's his worst thing, then right. Exactly. I would love to see his no refunds by Doug Stanhope or his, his, you know, uh, uh, Richard Pryor, Long Beach special or something like that. I would love to see his version of that cause it's gotta be fucking amazing. That's cool. Um, well, so I don't, I feel like we haven't really come to a consensus. Um, well, sort of we've, uh, on like a, on like a effects of cool things that can happen with like the animated. It's, it's, when it comes to emotional, uh, and really bringing you in, we have to go with a live action movie. It's almost like, uh, it's actually, as I'm saying this, this sounds like the most obvious fucking conclusion of all time, but it, it's almost like they're good for different things. Like some, some, you mean like chicks? Huh? Anybody? I don't know, like, it's, like, I'm, I'm just coming to it more and more of like, yeah, well, neither one's superior to the other. It's just when you're telling this one story, it's better. Like, and clearly, DC shit has been working better in cartoons and you're absolutely right, Ed. They're iconic. They're even, they even got brighter fucking colors in their costumes. A, a Punisher cartoon would be so dark, like literally dark, not, not, not, not, not, you know, in the, uh, literate sense. Like noir. Right, right. But I mean, like, although it'd be that too, but, but it's like, why even fucking bother? Whereas a Punisher movie done, like, should, should be really fucking easy and good. The biggest problem with a Punisher move, movie is, uh, that vigilante movies have been being done forever. Forever. Like, since movies started being made, everybody wants to take justice into their own hands. And, and so, putting a, a skull on the guy's chest and making the Punisher only is good for people who are fans of the Punisher. Otherwise, it's just another movie with a guy taking justice into his own hands by killing people. It's, I mean, right, you're, you're talking about, um, that's why it doesn't work. It works in that it's already worked and nobody wants to see it anymore. You're like, okay, it's Charlie Bronson, except he's got to paint some shit on his chest. You're like, it just makes, it's a sillier version of stuff that you see all the time. It's a sillier version of shit you've seen. Yeah. So it has to be handled very carefully. Exactly. But also, I think, I think there is, um, room for more, like, violent, more adult sort of cartoons. It seems like the, the Batman one where, uh, Jason Todd comes back and starts fucking people up, you know? It seems like that one was pretty cute. That's a good comic. Dude, I have not seen the cartoon version of that yet. In the cartoon version, the Joker fucked him up. Yeah. There's blood all over the fucking place. And in this new Dark Knight Returns, the Joker's, he's straight up just stabbing people and killing people. Yeah. And it's, it's fucking nuts. He breaks his own neck. I mean, it's fucking crazy. Well, I mean, what I'm saying is, though, like, it seems like animation, to say that it cannot do some of this gravitas stuff or, or, or, or, or, or, violent stuff as good as certain things, it's just all about the art and the art direction and how, like, much, you know, how much they put into it. And I was gonna mention the love story in, uh, I mean, obviously, again, you just, like you said, we're comparing it to a shit movie, but the love story in the, the, uh, Clone Wars animated, uh, feature done by this Samurai Jack guy whose name I keep forgetting. What is it? Gendy Tartakovsky. Gendy Tartakovsky. Um, is, uh, is, thank you. I was actually waiting for that. Um, is actually amazing. Like, the love story, it's simple. It's like, I miss you. I, I, I'm sad that I don't ever get to see you. And they hug and they kiss and then they go through separate ways because they know they have to go. They have duties. You know what I mean? Yeah. I fucking run into this shit all the time with movies. Like, a movie will take, like, literally people will go, well, uh, this is a comic book and you're insisting on scenes that be in there where they don't have time for that. They have time for Bruce Wayne to fuck around with that fucking bitch for 20 minutes. Yeah. But they don't have time to show a scene of him, I don't know, not using another fucking gun to do some shit. Yeah. Not, you know what I mean? Like, it's funny, the first movie had a 40, 30 minute training montage. This nigga put on a, a knee brace and started kicking bricks apart. What the fuck? Yeah. He did a bunch of pushups in a fucking prison where they had TV. Yeah. And now he's, like, got his shit together. Like, on the deleted scenes, was he watching Xena Warrior Princess on that fucking TV too? I mean, what, it just, a lot of movies with a lot of gravitas and shit like that, which is why DC's movies suck. They waste a lot of time. Superman Returns and all the Batman movies tally up the time that the heroes are crying in their fucking soup and moping around like a bunch of bitches. Right. Count that time. It's a lot. When Superman's being a super stalker outside of Lois Lane's house. Exactly. Count the times where Thor is thinking about some shit. Count the times where Black Widow isn't actively doing something. Yeah, it's not a lot. Even when she, and when she is doing something, when she is, like, thinking about something, it's to solve a problem. It's to solve a problem and a story problem at that. Yeah. And so, it's a fake, it's a fake dichotomy that you can't have that richness of character in CGI movies or, you know, comic book movies or animation. Yeah. And it's also a misnomer that nobody will accept actual gravitas from an animated movie because, like we said, Batman Year One, you don't even have to know Batman. Batman doesn't put on the damn costume until 55 minutes in, really. I'm just saying it's more, it's a lot more difficult. Oh, it's definitely more difficult. It takes a lot more to stretch us into feeling that way in the animated movies. I agree. But that's what makes the DC animated movies so amazing. It's true. They do actually get you a lot of times. I don't know if you saw the Superman vs. Doomsday. First off, the fight scene is un-fucking-believable. I mean, they're hitting each other so hard that glasses, you know, windows are shattering, buildings are shaking. Then he takes them up into space and comes straight down and just boom! Hits the ground with him and they're both fucking dead. I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, it's sick. But then, you feel Superman's death at the scene. You feel everybody's hurt about their hero, their guy, you know, not being there anymore. I feel like we'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about anime. Yeah, well, and that's actually, I wanted to bring up that as in comparison to martial arts movies. Because for a long time, they've been very adult. Yeah. Bloody. But, okay, let's say this. Adult, they're not mature. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They have adult content. They have explicit content. They have violence. They have sex. They have, but they have been very, they've stayed very immature. They basically, I mean, Story's not so great. Right. A lot, a lot of magic. So I know, a lot of, they call it demons or whatever, you know, but it's a lot, a lot of magic. this will, this will cue you into my appreciation of anime and all true anime hits will be mad at me for this. But to me, honestly, the best anime ever made are all made by Yoshiaki Kawajiri in his studio, Madhouse or whatever, Madcap, whatever. Give me some examples. Ninja Scroll. Ninja Scroll is the fucking shit. Cyber City, Oedo. In fact, the best scene, the best scene in Ninja Scroll is just the fucking fight through the bamboo forest with the two guys and neither of them have superpowers. One of them's blind and he knows that forest like the back of his fucking hand. Right. And the other guy is just a real badass samurai. That is the best scene and that's got nothing to do with the magic. There's no magic stuff in it. None of that magic crap. And it actually has a plot even though the plot is kind of crazy. But it actually has a plot. I fucking love that movie. Absolutely. It's amazing. And when you contrast that versus these ones where, hey, walking down the street and there's a tentacle in my cooch or, oh, I'm a little boy who changes into a little girl for 57 episodes. It's like, dude, stop it. Like, this dude has a mission. He killed a guy a long time ago. That dude's trying to take over feudal Japan by doing a big plot. I can kill him now. Wow, this is crazy. I already killed this guy one time. I like Afro Samurai too. I don't know if you guys have seen it. But even that kind of has a construct where, you know, there is a giant fight and the battle for the number two headband so that you can fight the number one guy and all that kind of stuff. I just like the animation, the anime stuff where it's like, well, like I said, Yoshiaki Kawajiri stuff seems to have a decent plot to it and it seems like the characters are developed. Jubei Kibigami, I know that guy. That guy might not even be the best ninja but he can take the most punishment and he has the most direction and focus of anything. He's a pretty ninja. He might not necessarily be the toughest. He gets beat up. The whole movie he's getting beat up. He gets beat up more than Indiana Jones but it's satisfying. It's really satisfying when you see him kick those guys' ass. That's pretty awesome. Golgo 13, The Professional is, it's basically, it's the anime version of an 80s action movie, of an American 80s action movie and it's this guy that he's just, he's a hitman. He's the best hitman. He's the James Bond of hitmen. Except, you know, it's not gadgets. It's, he's going to just kill it. Really kick ass, you know? Like, there's a scene where they know he's going for this guy. All the cops know he's going for this guy and so they say, all right, everywhere he could possibly shoot from we'll have guys stationed there, whatever. So instead, he's like, he's like three buildings away like shooting through another building. So he gets the guy in his sights and he fires one shot. One shot. One, two, three, four, five, whatever. And the bullets go. One breaks the glass and the next one keeps going. Breaks the glass and the next one keeps going. So finally, like it's one for each pane of glass and then the final one that's following all of them and hits the guy in the head. You've got crazy shit like that and that would be tough to do in a live action. It could be done but it'd be tough to do in a live action and that looks badass. So I will say that they've been working at it a lot longer. Unless you didn't set, and unless you set up specific rules that said that that was possible in a real life movie, like a live action movie, no one would accept that as possible. You know what? I feel like Wanted was like a, it was a live action version of an anime. It was, it was taking, it was trying to put animated rules. hated it. It was trying to put animated physics into live action and everybody hated it and rightfully so. And I mean, it's not like it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, especially the people who hated it the most were fans of the comic because it just diverged completely and the reason for that was because they just took somebody else's script and they just merged the two scripts. Right, and plus, come on dude. They were like, hey, this new movie shit is great. Yeah, how much money would it cost to do Wanted really? But anyway, well. But of course, the most annoying thing though is that all of the critics were like, this bullet curving thing, comic books. And you're like, that wasn't from the fucking comic book you piece of shit. Yeah, exactly. Say who we got on next week. Next week, we have the writers of Totally Biased with W. Kamau Bell. We have Kevin Avery and Guy Branum and possibly one more. Possibly, possibly one more, a female. So we can get that perspective as well. But yeah, and we are going to be talking how your nerdiness affects your politics and vice versa and it's going to be fucking intense. It's going to be interesting. We have a lot of opinions up in here even without a bunch of Totally Biased writers. All right, plugs, Ed Gray destroys, check my schedule on supportdestruction.com and we'll see you next week. Dorky Swallow and our Facebook and listen to Angry Dorks. At Matt Blackwood on Twitter. Yay! Thanks guys, we love you.! I'm a soldier, a motion, a culture, a thought, a culture. Don't be unwise, just be nice by my side. You won't believe your eyes, watch the X-Wing rise. Yoda, why you being a fire hater? You know that I...