Navy Yard shooting and mental health discussion

Hello, this is Julianne Good and you're listening to Psych One-on-One. We're here to bring you psychology that's understandable, entertaining, enlightening, and hopefully interesting and educating. Today, I was going to have a program on narcissism and due to the massive shootings this morning in Washington at the Navy Yard, my guest, Dr. Susan Jacob, who has been with me previously, we are going to be discussing that situation and components that may have gone and contributed to the whole shooting situation. If you haven't kept up on the news, I'm going to just tell you a little bit about the situation. There was a former petty officer from the Navy that went in and shot up 12 people spontaneously this morning with no pre-warning. Somehow he got into this base with three guns, which is incredible in itself. I'm sure it was a high security area. So a major tragedy. And of course, you know, originally they thought it was three shooters. And then they found out with later investigation that this was a lone shooter. And of course, he ended up shooting himself after a rounds with the officers. But this man's name was Aaron Alexis. He was 34 years old. The interesting thing is he was in the Navy from 2007 to 2008. And he had been awarded the National Defense Service Medal and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. So again, hopefully there's going to be more investigation going on and see what his background really was because we've had too many of these mass shootings lately. And this is terrifying for all of us in society. But today we are going to have more of an open forum. I am inviting the listeners. Call and ask questions. Give us your opinions. The number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. Please call in and join us. And I would like to introduce Dr. Susan Jacob. Thank you for being with us again. Glad to be here. Thank you. And a little bit about Dr. Jacob. She is a marriage and family therapist in Newport Beach. She specializes in separation and divorce therapy for individuals, couples, and children and maintains a private practice. With over 20 years of experience as a clinician, she is also a graduate of CGI, which is now the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. And she specializes in separation, divorce recovery, and building a brighter future. She is currently serving as a private practitioner, working with a broad spectrum of clients. And she has definitely a huge list of different clients that she has seen. She is practical, interactive, solution-focused. And her treatment approach is to provide support and practical feedback to help keep clients to resolve current problems and long-standing patterns. She incorporates a blend of conventional and alternative approaches, drawing upon a variety of styles and techniques, and is a great example of how to incorporate what will be most helpful for each client. Thank you, Dr. Jacob. Dr. Jacob Welcome. Thank you. How would you like to start off tonight's conversation on the happenings this morning in Washington? Dr. Well, I'd like to start off by saying is that continually we see these and people focus on gun control and not mental health. Dr. And obviously, we're all in this together. Dr. Yes. Dr. And obviously, someone that goes in and shoots random people is not mentally stable. There's no question they're not mentally stable. And it concerns me that we are not focusing on trying to identify and maybe making some change to the laws so that we can intervene with these people and maybe there'd be less dead people. For sure, this gentleman, or I won't call him a gentleman, this shooter, has a lot of history. I did see that today. I checked the news and he has a history of violent acting now. So, there were some cues and there almost always is. If you notice, there's always a history that could have pointed to something. Dr. Yeah, usually there is some unusual behavior right before the shootings. People that are around the shooters will usually say, well, you know, a lot of times they'll say he was a very quiet person. Dr. Mm-hmm. Dr. Or he used to keep to himself. Dr. Mm-hmm. Dr. And then he would say, well, I'm not sure if he's a good shooter. Dr. Well, I think people that are around the shooters will usually say, well, you know, a lot of times they'll say he was a very quiet person. Dr. Mm-hmm. Dr. Or he used to keep to himself. Or, you know, he had some odd behaviors, but nothing that was that out of place that I would sit there and be afraid of him. But they knew that something was off beforehand. Dr. Well, today, if the press is correct, the news media is correct, he got a general discharge from the military for some unknown reasons. But he was arrested for shooting his gun off through the ceiling in his apartment into someone else's apartment. He also shot out...he wasn't arrested, but he shot out somebody's tires just as malicious mischief. So he has a history. And, you know, you talk about somebody that's in the military. You talk about somebody that's in the military training and then has these violent acting out. There's some red flags. In each case, there seems to be the history of some serious red flags, but nobody is able to do anything about it. I think that we keep hearing, why didn't somebody do something about it? Well, there isn't...legally, there isn't anything you can do if you think somebody is violent. If they haven't been violent yet and you think they have potential for violence, you can do something about it. If they have potential for violence, no law, there's nothing anyone can do. And I think that's a major concern, identifying and maybe making some changes to save some lives. Right. And having people coming forward and having some place to report that to, you know, some part of the police department or whatever, or whatever, you know, reporting situation that could happen, I think that might help too if we had some sort of situation like that set up where people weren't afraid to come forward and saying, you know, this person is really displaying some unusual behaviors and maybe somebody should go check them out or, you know, because it's just, you know... But it's illegal to check them out, Julianne. It's illegal. The police, if we were to call, as you and I mean mandated reporters, if we thought some...we can only report them if we have an identified victim. If we say, you know, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, you're a victim, if we say we're concerned about this individual being violent, we're not sure to who, but violent, the police will tell you he hasn't done anything yet, there is no crime, they do nothing. So it isn't...if we had a safe place and we called in, they wouldn't do anything because it isn't against the law. We're in a situation where the laws protect people that are, you know, potentially violent and they were meant for civil rights. They were meant for all the right reasons. But there's a tiny percentage of people that unfortunately don't know they need treatment and do. And that is the rub. That's where we find ourselves in our country today. So what do we do then as innocent bystanders at first on protecting ourselves against people like that? Do you have any recommendations? Well... I think that it's difficult to know who to protect ourselves against, but I think that in 2002, there was brought forth something called Laura's Law. In about 1963, President Kennedy deinstitutionalized, meaning there was no more mandatory treatment for someone that did not want treatment. It could be held for 72 hours. But if someone... If they were a danger to self or others, there was no mandatory treatment. Somebody can refuse treatment. And unfortunately, this tiny percent of mentally ill people don't know they need treatment. They don't know there's anything wrong with them. No matter what everybody else knows around them, they don't know and they will not seek treatment. They'll refuse it. And so this has been a problem. The deinstitutional... Excuse me. The deinstitutional... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Excuse me. By removing people from institutions, the communities were to take up the gauntlet and treat the mentally ill. Many of those people are what we call today homeless. They weren't able to do it. There wasn't funds. There wasn't resources. And the funds that were available were taken, I think Nixon removed them all. And then they sued them and got them all back. But it's been going on for many years. So in the years since, we have had laws that we cannot mandatory treat anybody. It is not against the law to have a preventative for violence. And we cannot tell someone you must have treatment. In the years since then, the violence has increased dramatically. We focus on guns and yes, they use guns and I'm horrified. However, they also blow themselves up with manure and nails. Right. And so there's always been violent young men. But in the past, there was laws and there was mandatory treatment. In 2002, they came out with a law called Laura's Law. And it may not be strong enough, but it was a law that would say that people that have been through a series of things, a long process could be ordered by the courts. Ordered by the courts to have treatment. However, each county could accept it to incorporate this law or not. One in California did. Only one. It's a county most of us never heard of, Nevada County. They've had really outstanding results. Orange County has decided against it. It was interesting. When it was going on, I was on the county mental health board and we went around and listened to parents and family members plea for this law to take place to be incorporated because of all their painful stories. Each one, it was very heart wrenching. However, there wasn't any funds. You could adopt it, but do nothing about it. And that's what's happened over the years. And now 11 years later, we have nothing and people are dying. Yeah. It's very, very scary. And... Hopefully, those funds are going to start coming back with Obamacare, but we can't hold our breath. So, you know, but something has to be done. The funds would... This law would say that the courts can order mandatory treatment for a tiny percentage of people that seem to be seriously at risk for violence. It's different than mental health coverage. Because if these people had... Most of them had mental health coverage, they wouldn't go. Right. They wouldn't go. Right. They wouldn't go. Right. And so, I think that most people would absolutely benefit. But these violent people that are shooting people, they're not... They don't know they're ill. Mm-hmm. So, I think that I would encourage people to look up Laura's Law and try to act. If they think it makes sense to be supporters, I certainly feel... I have felt for many years that it was an essential addition that may save a lot of lives. And it would be a beginning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I just read too that Obamacare comes in place to both financially struggling people with the least expensive policy will have a 50% copay for mental health and so they won't be able to afford it anyway. Because 50% will still be too much. So, mental health has come a long way in some ways and in other ways, it's backwards. We have homeless and we have violent people. I mean the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows the family knows It's a place where, even though I'm a big civil rights proponent, it's backfired in this area. Yeah, and then you look at the closures, too, of all the state mental hospitals. Yeah, they're homeless now. Right, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it was atrocious. And I remember going through those times and seeing more homeless people ending up on the streets. And it was just pathetic. And I'm thinking, you know, this is supposed to be a democratic society. We're supposed to be helping out people here. And this is the way that they help mentally ill people. What's going on? It's disturbing. Well, I think there was a look at the mental institutions, and they were very disturbing. And some abuses were happening. And certainly, it was not a good situation. But instead of improving the situation and really looking at it, there was a big... They moved to close them, just close them. And then they changed the laws where it was not against the law to be mentally ill, which it shouldn't be. Right. But nobody could mandate treatment for anyone, no matter who they were, no matter how violent they were. So it went from one radical extreme to the next. And, of course, both extremes don't work out. Right. So now we've got homeless people and perpetually violent people. And even if they are recognized, which this shooter, there was red flags, and most of them there are, it's not legal to do anything about it. Right. We have no... You know, it's not against the law. And so we can't mandate treatment. So how can... And I think we better look at that. We should. I mean, I think everybody should be running to their congressperson and saying, hey, you should really look at... Look into Laura's... Look into Laura's law. Let's see what we can do on a legal base. If it's already in place, all we have to do, the law is in place if the county's adopted. So I think it's our local representatives that have the say. In California, one county, Nevada County, has adopted. It had amazing results. L.A. started finally a pilot program. Orange County, nothing. And... Because Orange County has said, the supervisors apparently have said, we have a lot of services and some of it would be duplicate. But the one thing they haven't dealt with or talked about is for those small percentage of people that refuse treatment and are potentially dangerous. That is what Laura's law is really looking at. And I would recommend that anybody interested to Google it and look it up and see what they think. Yeah. You know, support it or don't, but at least be aware that it can be adopted and funded if people are heard. But I think most people don't know about it. Right. So thank you for mentioning that. And hopefully the listeners will check out Laura's law and make your voice heard in government. I mean, that's what we're here for. Again, we're a democracy. So again, if... Our voices are heard. Exactly. Exactly. It used to be. So we need to speak up, right? Right. Right. You know, and it's the focus goes after the children were shot. The focus was on mental health for a very brief period of time. Very brief. And then it went completely to gun control and mental health just lost any media coverage, anything at all. Gone. Everything was about gun control. And that has not gotten any better. But mental health was off. Even Obama was talking about it. And then he wasn't. Right. I think that we better focus on who these people are and what we could recognize ahead of time to hedge them. I mean, they look for terrorists that way. So this is a different kind of terror. And it's a tragedy. It's not necessary. These people probably could have been identified and treated. And other people wouldn't be dead. And they wouldn't either, you know. But there is a possibility of averting it if we just... look at the situation and try to make changes. Yeah, we need to make a change now. It's... We can't have any more of these, you know, mass shootings. I mean, it would be nice. But I mean, I'm just saying, you know, something... People need to stand up and say, we need to make changes here. That's, you know... Hopefully something can be done. But I know part of it, too, is just... the way that they treat the people in the military with their mental health issues. That's atrocious. I mean, now it's starting to become more prevalent because, of course, we're having a lot of people coming back from, you know, multiple rounds of deployment to Afghanistan or Iraq or, I mean, Iran. I mean, the whole thing is... Yeah. The PTSD level is going. Yeah, period. And... And a lot of suicides as well. Record suicides from these soldiers that fought so hard. They haven't been able to handle it. And they've been so depressed and so disturbed that it's a credible high number of suicides and post-traumatic stress. But as you said, they're discharged. And I don't think they are giving any re-entry... And I might be wrong of this, but I have never heard of, like, there should be a process of mental health evaluation and helping these guys to re-enter society and making sure they're okay and have jobs and so forth instead of just discharging them. And most of them, it's a pride. They don't know where to turn for help. And they think if they do it in the military, well, then they'd be in the records and so forth. So there's a lot of problems with it, but these men deserve better. They deserve better treatment as far as I'm concerned. They deserve the best of treatment when they come back and go through a process where they're brought back to the community and treated and getting the help they need, job placement included, and counseling, everything. Yeah, you know, from Chicago school, I know they had a lot of workshops on treating vets with PTSD. I think it's starting to become... More clinicians are getting trained on this, which should be happening. We can just get the people to the clinicians, right? Exactly. That's a whole thing. It's the destigmatization of going in for therapy is what we need to work on as clinicians. And just the public needs to understand if you're having something going on, you cannot resolve it within your own... Home, within your own community, then by all means, go out and get some help from professionals. That's what we're here for. We're reaching out and saying, you know, nobody can make it alone. So, you know, just... And there's many therapists and organizations. I'm a part of one I just joined. But there's many organizations that provide... The therapists have signed up to provide free treatment. I think most of us would, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I certainly would. And so there is... It's not only treatment, but free treatment. It's just a matter of reaching out and them recognizing it and getting the help that they deserve. And, you know, it's confidential. Then it's not through the military. Yeah. It might be more comfortable. Right. And I know that they have those affiliated agencies now that are not attached to the military so that it goes on to their records so they do have the confidentiality that they deserve. Right. But, you know, what we see in the media, the Veterans Administration is backlogged by a couple years. It is a nightmare. It just... These guys have not been treated with the respect and honor they deserve after putting their lives out there and dealing with atrocities. And I think it's one of the... It's very sad. Very sad and shameful that we aren't treating them, you know, as heroes. Right. Right. Yeah, I highly agree. Definitely. The listeners would like to join us in this conversation. The number is 800-893-9562. Again, it's 800-893-9562. So, Dr. Jacob, what would you recommend if there's a listener in our audience right now that's, you know, having some concerns, and, you know, had kind of a rough life, is feeling frustrated and angry and doesn't know what to do with all that energy? What would you recommend that he or she do? Seek help. We're out there. It's what we want to do. We want to help. There's plenty of help. There's plenty of therapists. And we want to help. And we can help. And there's many people, specialize in that. They're available. And there's, even if it's not covered with insurance or sliding scales, there's all kinds of ways to access help. If you're really in need, in spite of insurance or anything else, there's help. So, reach out and get some help for yourself. You deserve it. And so do those people around you deserve not to be afraid. And maybe at times paranoid to be around because it is very scary. I, about five years ago, I was working at Long Beach Memorial Hospital. And a gentleman that I knew that worked in a pharmacy went through a major behavioral change for a couple of weeks. And everybody could tell the difference. And we had talked about it. And I had mentioned it to a manager because we were all in the hospital. And I was like, I'm not worried about this. I'm just worried about this. And he was all concerned. He was a gentle bear of a man before this had happened. And a couple of weeks after he, and I was working at the hospital at the time, I had heard a bang in the pharmacy where he worked. And I was thinking, it almost sounded like something had dropped, but it wasn't. He had point blank shot one of his coworkers in the head and then ran down the hallway. Pulled somebody out into the street that he used to work with, shot him and then shot himself. So yeah, it just, it threw a whole total shock into the hospital. Hospital went down and into lockdown and everything else. And it was tragic. I still to this day can feel the pain of that day happening because I had known the man relatively well. And I would have never guessed that he would have ended up doing that. But he was also a veteran. So we don't know what... Troubled individual. And people saw it coming, but they didn't know what to do. Exactly. They didn't see that coming, but they thought he needed help, but didn't know what to do. And it's really tough because mostly the people that end up being violent, they don't know they're ill. And they're not going to seek treatment. And we need to be able to, even if the court has to order it and evaluate them, and if they need it, hopefully they won't fold over the cracks and there won't be dead bodies and people emotionally victimized everywhere. I mean, it's so traumatic. It is. It's one of the most tragic things in America. Yeah. And I tell you, after that situation, that hospital was never the same. A lot of people ended up quitting. A lot of people just, you know, were in intensive therapy after that because there were a few people that had witnessed it, especially the people that were in the hospital. Sure. And they witnessed it, especially the street scene. It was horrible. It was just one of the worst days ever. I mean, and there it is, you know, the vicarious PTSD of the bystanders. Absolutely. You know, I... PTSD means you should never witness it in a normal life, that you experience something that is not normal to ever experience or witness. Having somebody murder their coworkers where you work, especially in front of you, is absolutely qualified. You're right. And people need help with that. And he needed help too, obviously. Yeah. I was... It is tragic he didn't get it, especially working in a hospital. Yeah. That's a rub. And I think we really have to start, make moves in that direction. I really encourage people to at least look at Laura's life. It's a beginning. It's not the final answer. It may not be enough, but it's something. It's a beginning. Turn the tide. Not back to institutionalizing. This is mandatory outpatient treatment. Mm-hmm. And at least it's a start. And it's something in the families of these disturbed or mentally ill people. They were so desperate to get this through and to get help because they would have some say to at least report that their own loved one, their own family member, their own son, for example, was scaring them. And it was dangerous. And could have some say so. After that, maybe they'd go back to their confidentiality, but they were desperate for this because also the jails, the prisons are filled up with mentally ill people. Mm-hmm. I think 30-something percent of the people in prison, which costs a fortune, are in prison, jail and prison. Right. And then there's the homeless. Yeah. I know. I mean, the list goes on and on, it seems like, doesn't it? Yeah. It's like, where do we start? But we have to start somewhere. I would say Laura's Law. Right. Because it's right, we can get that in place. We just need the funding. Yeah. And we need the priorities. Right. And we need to have that protection as citizens. Right. You know, we all deserve to have a safe place to live. Right. And it just, you know, with more shootings like this going on, I think there's going to be more people going to be afraid of the police. Right. And going to be afraid to go out, especially in, you know, crowded areas and such. And, you know, I... Movie theater, there was a guy, but everyone, there was a lot of people identified that guy as really disturbed, unstable and potentially violent. But nobody could do anything because there was no law in place to evaluate him or to have mandatory treatment of any kind, outpatient or otherwise. Yeah. Our hands are tied legally then, you know. Yeah, we need to untie them. Yeah. That's my thought. There is a beginning, you know, it's been around since 2002. It isn't the end all answer, but it's something. The beginning. Instead of just everybody arguing about guns all the time. I mean, we're not getting anywhere on that anyway. But what about the shooter? Mm-hmm. What about these people? How are we going to reach them? Right. How are we going to reach them and get intervention before they, you know, completely lose it and kill people innocent? Yeah, and hopefully there's more research going on too as to exactly what is the makeup of these shooters. You know, there's got to be a huge biological component to it. Just... Yeah, well, young men, it's always... Right. You know, the last ones, I started looking at what changed. A lot of clients and stuff said, what's so different? Why do we have more of this? And I started looking and thinking, why do we? Because there's a certain range of young men who, you know, like 18 to 28 or around in there. This guy was older, but he was still a young man, who are mentally ill. And it's a tiny percent of the mentally ill. But we used to have laws that people could... Mandate treatment or something. Now we don't. And that's why... That's when everything changed. That's when we got more shootings. Because there's always been weapons. But they're not... Where... Why didn't we have more people trying to use them, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what has changed in society too that makes this an attractive choice for some of these mentally ill men? That I don't understand. That was a big change. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. of going to making a shooter, definitely. Right. And, you know, it could be post-traumatic stress. It could be desensitization, which happens also in the military. There's so many variables, but I think we can identify a lot of them, like you said. And I don't, I even think the research is out there, maybe already done, but we can't act on it. And of course, more research is absolutely always the best thing. And, but I think right now we're in a place of needing action. Yeah. And still letting this happen over and over and over again. And then we're, then we're all paranoid to be going out and we're going out with, you know, chest shields on and, you know, combat helmets on or whatever. You know what I mean? All of a sudden it's, it's going to get a little weird. I, this continues. So. It goes on for a while and then people relax and kind of forget it. It goes into history and then it happens again and again and again. All right. You know, and I, I agree with you, Dr. Jacob on the Sandy Hook situation. I had watched the news quite a bit that weekend and it was amazing that for about two and a half days, there were different psychologists on and speaking about that. We need more mental health. Yeah. We need more mental health programs and availability for the, you know, for a variety of people. And it was, I was going, this is great. They're finally talking about it. They're broadcasting this. And then bam, it stopped. It just stopped. Yeah. And then, and then it was like, oh, this is gun control. And then, you know, the Obama administration had gotten into an everything else. It was guns, guns, guns. And. Yeah. And the NRI, you know, has a huge lobby. Right. Because. a big political thing about guns. And I think we're losing perspective when we're forgetting about the person that shot it. Why would someone go shoot up a bunch of random children or a bunch of Navy Yard people in the cafeteria? They don't, you know, this is mental illness. This is not like a hobby or something. This is serious mental illness, violence, and distortions, delusions, hallucinations, all that kind of thing. Psychosis. And these people need help and they need to be identified and help. And even if they don't want it, I think that we could mandate it. I hope so, sooner or later. You know, I hope that there's going to be some kind of screening process. And, you know, I'm also hoping that they can start catching these types of personalities earlier, like in elementary school. That would be key. I am now going to be working with elementary school children, doing group therapy down in Unified School District, which I'm really looking forward to. And these are, you know, identified children of, you know, they have rough home situations or behavioral issues. Right, they're at risk. And, you know, if we can get to, you know, to the little ones, and hopefully change the course of their lives from the get-go, there's a better chance of not producing antisocial people like this. Well, and help then feels normal if you're used to it since you're young. And it just feels like, oh, well, it's fine. You go to the doctor, you go to the counselor, it's all normal. And I think that destigmatization and early outreach is good. But the people that are, have these psychotic episodes, you usually don't have them until early, late adolescence, early adulthood. It's, they crack. And most people that have a psychotic break are not violent. It's only like 1%. But if we could identify them. And so, you know, we also really need to take a close look at adolescents. You know, and try to identify when we see somebody that's going, you know. And it probably is a combination of the two. Right. The combination of stressors and at-risk kids and, you know, psychosis. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and domestic violence. We don't understand it. They're so ill, we can't imagine it. Yeah, so it's, it's just so much, it's so much from all of us to hopefully identify these people and steer them in the right direction. And hopefully they'll listen. Or hopefully they have somebody around them. They're not going to listen. They're not going to listen unless it's mandated. And unfortunately, that is a small, small forfeiting of civil rights. But, you know, obviously, our civil rights, you know, people can listen in to phone calls and all that now. So our civil rights without our even knowing it have been moved aside. So for this reason, I think identifying people that really need help and band-aiding it for that tiny percent is well worth it. Mm-hmm. Not all mentally ill people, just this tiny percent that have these certain proclivities for violence. Right. So what kind of signs would you be looking for that somebody could end up potentially going down this path? Well, when they're, people are, let's call it unraveling, they begin to have delusions. They're not rational. They hear and see things. Generally, there may be paranoia. It's like you saw this gentleman that you worked with, and I guess it's not fair to call him a gentleman, but he was. He was before the break. Yeah, exactly. And he starts showing a lot of symptoms. They're, you know, psychosis, delusions, personality change, aggression. And today, a lot of these young men, they're making websites. They're talking about it. Mm-hmm. And, you know, after they've killed these people, they look and say, oh, they put it on the website. Yeah. Yeah, what's a bigger red flag than that, right? Right. But, you know, you would see a personality switch, the unraveling, the delusions, the paranoia, anxiety, and they're, maybe they're already isolating and they're buying guns and taking an interest in obsession with certain populations. And they're having a lot of packages delivered to their places. You do see it. You see them unraveling. They're very, you see and sense and feel the instability. Yeah. But when they start acting out in sort of, in violent ways, you know, I think we better look at it. This guy shot a gun through the roof of his own apartment. Shot tires out. And I don't know why he was discharged from the military with a general discharge, but he has, obviously, there was a problem. Yeah. And it's amazing that he ended up getting, those two awards that I had mentioned previously. That, when I read that today, I was like, this is totally bizarre. You know, the incongruency of, you know, the information. I'm sure there's, yeah, I'm sure there's going to be more coming out within the next few days, but it just. A little while ago, I read that his friends were shocked. His father was shocked that he's a Buddhist. That's what they say on the media. I guess it's, I don't know if it's true. You know, media is not always accurate. Right. But that he, something happened to him. And something unraveled this man, whether it was biochemical, whether it was post-traumatic stress, there was red flags all over the place. And incongruency alone is a red flag. Mm-hmm. You know, you've got a guy working and getting medals. And I know these are minor medals, but still, nonetheless, he got them. And then he's shooting through his roof. Well, those behaviors don't kind of go together. And so I think we get a look at that and say, oh. They're unraveling. Something's wrong. Reach out. We've got to get help for this person. Instead of, you know, they arrest him and discharge him. They either put you in jail or let you go. But they don't get, there's no help. Yeah. And hopefully the military is going to have some kind of post-discharge system that they can kind of keep an eye on. I don't know how they would do that. Because, of course, it's. First, they've got to find their records. I'm sorry. It's hard to be sarcastic, but their records are. People are waiting years to get any treatment, no matter what's wrong with them. So that is a tragedy and a crisis in our country, too, that we, the veterans are waiting a year, two years or more to even get any kind of treatment. So early identification and early intervention. And I think we're a long way from that. Yeah. And they should be first in line for getting mental health services, period. Absolutely. They did serve their time. They did protect our country. They need to be taken care of. I'm with you 100 percent. They should. They should get the best kind of medical, the best kind of mental health care and job placement, all of it. Help them and their families. Their families need help, too, dealing with all that goes on when they come back. They need to help the family so they can have the right kind of support and resources. There's so much that can be done. We just have to make a priority. Yeah, we do. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I know. So be a voice. We all will try to be a voice. And I encourage people to look at our history and look at Laura's law and see if they think that will help. See if they can have a stronger voice for the veterans. You know, it's better to be proactive than to just be scared. Mm-hmm. We do need to do that. Mm-hmm. We can make a difference. Yes, we can. We have to. Yeah. Yeah, that's why we have free speech, supposedly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're a wonderful country. As flawed as we are, we're the best country there is. But everything needs improvement. And I think discontinuing mandatory treatment was all done with the best intentions by Kennedy, thinking, you know, the communities could take care of people, they could have outpatient resources, and it was all, but it was idealistic. It was. It didn't happen. It wasn't really possible, and it really wasn't funded enough to, or really understood what was required to really have this take place. And there was a radical institutionalized people against their will to none at all. So we have two extremes. And maybe, maybe we need to back up just a tiny bit. Yes. We need to definitely go on and do our own research. Yes. We, yeah, exactly. And like you said before, Dr. Jacob, be proactive. Mm-hmm. You know, go out there, and if there's somebody that you're close to that's starting to display some of these behaviors, by all means, try to get him or her in for help. Mm-hmm. Reach out, even if you can talk to somebody yourself and see, get some direction. Right. you can do anything you can do. Yeah. You could be saving lives, including your own. Including your own. Yeah. I mean, that's what it comes down to now. It's sad to have to put it all into that, but it's happening more. I mean, we really need to look at this realistically and do something about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that it's healthier, it's mentally healthier to take action, to speak out, make one phone call, or write one letter, call on a radio station, do one thing, is better than just being afraid. At least you feel like you tried. You tried to do at least one thing. You can do more than one thing, but at least that. And you feel like you've been proactive and you've tried to protect yourself and others in that way. And do a little reading, see what you think. I think people should look these things up. If they don't agree, they don't agree, but at least look at it. Yeah. Get educated about it. And you're right. Don't be afraid about it. Don't be silent. Do something. Mm-hmm. You know, we all need to take a stand against this so that we have a safer society again. Right. Yeah. And open our vision not to just be so narrow and only look at one aspect. I mean, guns isn't a minor thing, but it's all, not all of it. That's all the people are looking at. They've just, as you said, they dropped to mental health. They started talking about assault weapons. Mm-hmm. And that was the end of mental health. Well, somebody had that assault weapon in their hand and shot children. Mm-hmm. And who was that person and what was wrong and how could we have identified and got that person help and saved lives? And it could be done. It's possible. At least we could reduce it. Right. I agree with reducing it. You know, probably 100% prevention is not going to be, you know, that's, utopian, but it's, you know. You know, when they did institutionalize people against their will, there wasn't 100%. There was less. And I don't think that radical move needs to be, but we need to make some move. Mm-hmm. We need to get these people help and they don't know they're sick. That's the unfortunate part. The part of their brain that's affected that caused them to be violent is also causing them not to know they're sick. Mm-hmm. They just don't know. So it's off kilter or it's damaged or, you know, who knows what at this point. It definitely, there is some damage done and they're, you know, delusional and they imagine things that are there that aren't there and paranoid, et cetera, et cetera. But part of the difficulty with these human beings, again and again, I say, they don't know they're sick. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it is the responsibility almost to people around them to understand and to see those signs and to get them the help, that they really need. Yeah. And if they don't, you know, if they won't get it, I think we need to have some resources to mandate it. And, you know, right now, even Laura's Law is only for people that have had constant troubles that, you know, needed treatment and not gotten it and had one thing after the other. I mean, it's pretty, you have to go pretty far before they mandate it legally. And maybe we, maybe that isn't even enough, but at least it's a start. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And where, if somebody has a person around them that's displaying this kind of behavior, what agency can they contact or Google or, you know, or just research and maybe contact them actually to ask more questions about, well, you know, I know this person that's displaying these behaviors and what should I look for and how can I get him or her in for help? Do you know of any agency that... Well, the National Organization of Mental Health is NAMI and they're very big on helping people, on educating people and it's a good organization. And I think if you, people want counseling, I think most of the colleges have, you know, some resources to help people. There's county mental health, but county mental health usually helps people that have a diagnosis. So if you're the one calling and you don't have a diagnosis, but at least you could talk to them and see what they, how they direct you. But NAMI is a start. College counseling centers, you know, reach out. And, geez, people can find so much on the internet these days. Yeah, that is fantastic. It is. Just look for the, you know, look for reputable people because there's also a lot of what I call crackpots with all kinds of ideas. So, you know, you want a credentialed professional organization to talk to that knows what they're talking about so you can get the right kind of help and the right kind of input. Right. And usually if the address has .org at the end of it, that's a pretty good, pretty good site for the most part depending on the organization. But, yeah, those are, they're usually legit. So, now what about if a person is in, you know, they're going off and they're extremely, other than calling the police, right, correct? I mean, that would, that would be my number one call to be making if somebody was just out of control like that. Could they take them to an emergency room or such as? Sure. Okay. If they're in danger to themselves or others, and they are evaluated for that, they can at least be held for 72 hours and then they can, sometimes they'll hold them for, it's pretty extensive to have it happen, but up to 14 days. So, they will help in the emergency room or they have people that are trained to evaluate people for danger to themselves or others and so do the police. So, either resources, if the police find someone is danger to themselves or others, they're going to get them to a hospital. They're not going to take them to jail. Right. They're trained for this and so are some people in the emergency room. So, one or the other will get them to, if they are seen as danger to self or others, they will get them there and hold them and get some treatment, at least a little bit of stabilization, which they're nothing. Exactly. At least they'll give them like an antipsychotic or a sedative or something to calm them down and hopefully, yeah. Yeah, hopefully. You just wonder, I mean, when these, some of these shooters were escalating and a few of them, people around them did, I mean, I wonder if they would have called 911 to see what would have happened. But I don't know that when these people around them saw it or read their websites if they knew it was imminent. It's hard to believe that people, you know, I don't think you believe anybody you know could possibly do this. Right. It's very shocking. Mm-hmm. Very shocking. It is. So, Dr. I had a job. Yeah. Government contract. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Dr. Jacob, as we're wrapping up, is there anything else you'd like to state to the listeners that could help them with a situation like this? Well, if you're traumatized or it's triggering emotional things in you and it does trigger something emotional in all of us, it is good to talk about it. It is good to give help. It's good to reach out. You know, at least peer support. People need to talk about these things and they need, they can talk to professionals about, for example, I think people need to talk to their children. They get the news, they hear this and it's very alarming. And to try to stabilize them and get some, you know, security and give them perspective that isn't on every street corner. And, but I think that there will probably be a little bit on the news about stabilizing children and so forth. And this happens. But I think that reach out to one another and talk to therapists and counselors if they are available. They will talk to people and help them to get stabilized. And again, be proactive. Do one little thing. Read a few things, even that. And maybe you'll feel people will be motivated to act on whatever they think is the right direction. But I think that helps us. Yeah, it helps to give us a little bit of hope. And feeling of safety. Like, you know, we do have control of certain aspects of our lives. You know, not everything. Yes. But, yeah. It feels good to have help. It does. It does. Exactly. So, we help one another. We get professional help. We get, you know, we reach out to the people that are offering the help. And never be, never refuse help when you need it. We all need one another. We do. Definitely. And Dr. Jacob, if anybody would like to contact you, can you give them your website? Yes. It's SM Jacob PhD. And also, my phone number is 949-851-5022. So, feel free to call. Great. Thank you so much. I'm in Newport Beach. Yes. It's a wonderful place to be. Yes. But I'm happy to talk to someone that wants some input. And I'm happy to be available. And a lot of people are. We're out there. We want to help. And we all need to help each other because we aren't entirely powerless. And we can help one another. Yes. And thank you for helping our listeners tonight, Dr. Jacob. Thank you again for being my guest. It's always a delight. Well, thank you for having me. We decided at the last minute in this tragedy that maybe we better talk about it. I think it was a really good idea of yours. Yes. Well, thank you for switching so quickly. You know, it's... Hopefully, we get some resolve from all this tragedy and we can learn some very valuable lessons for it and reach out and help one another a little bit better. Right? Yeah. If we can understand it and act, maybe we can make a difference. I agree. But in the meantime, I think everybody needs to be supportive of each other and realize the media makes it look like, it's on every street corner. It isn't. Right. We're likely not going to get shot. But it's even harder for you, Julianne, because you've seen it. Yeah. But we see it on the media. We feel like we were there. I know. And we need to be supportive and talking about it. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much, Dr. Jacob. Thank you, Julianne. And thank you so much to my listeners out there. And we are going to have some more new shows coming up. I had to take a break for a little bit. That was my little summer break. But anyways, thank you for joining us. And we look forward to you tuning in next week between 7 and 8 p.m. Pacific Standard Time on Monday. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye now.! I'm out. South Olive, downtown L.A. Skid Row Studios, motherfucker. Hello, I'm Julianne Good, the host of Psych One-on-One, live on Mondays from 7 to 8 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. Every week, I talk with psychology experts as we explore the issues that matter to you. Anything from reducing anxiety to getting better Zs at night. Call in at 800-893-9562 to ask us questions and give us your opinions. We'd love you to join us. We're here to make psychology understandable and give you the information you need to make your life better. And if you can't listen live, our shows are also archived and available for downloading from iTunes, and we're at www.skidrowstudios.com. Join us, please. We'll see you next week. 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