Parking reform, Eric Garner case, police misconduct

Jeff Norman, The Norman Report. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Norman Report. Jeff Norman. And tonight we're going to talk about police misconduct and police conduct. It's not all misconduct, but we're going to get at it in two different ways. A little later in the show, Jessica Burke, a police watchdog based in New York City, will join us on the phone. And here in the studio tonight are two kindred spirits. These guys are maniacs in the same way or in a similar way that I am. They're passionate about traffic laws, the motor vehicle code, parking laws, the way it's enforced, what those laws are, the whole policy behind it. They have founded the Los Angeles Parking Freedom Initiative. It's a citizen movement to reform parking policy and enforcement. It's a citizen movement in the city of Los Angeles. Welcome, Jay Bieber. Welcome, Stephen Vincent. I don't trust anybody with two first names, by the way. Oh, well. Well, you can trust Stephen. All right. I'll vouch for him. Is that okay? That's fine. Oh, wait a minute. You've got two first names. Exactly. I was hoping you'd get that. I kind of like Ron Paul. Sir Han Sir Han. That's the same first name. You're right. So. So, you guys, I say you're maniacs, and frankly, I mean it. Now, what's behind the passion here? Now, I know, Jay, you are known as the guy who got rid of camera lights in the city of Los Angeles. Yeah, the red light cameras in the city of Los Angeles. And is that how you first established your cred as kind of a parking guru? Yes. Traffic guru. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly true. I mean, the L.A. Weekly called me L.A.'s newest folk hero when that happened. I was like, oh, look, I'm a folk hero. But, yeah, I mean, that was one of the things. I actually had no real interest in probably most of this until that happened. And I just started doing some research on, you know, red light cameras and what was going on. I saw a news report. And then I heard, you know, from the police department and from the Department of Transportation, city of Los Angeles. And they were saying things to the city council that just simply were not true. And I was waiting for somebody to get up and tell the true story. And it didn't happen. So, I was like, somebody has to do this. Somebody has to do that. What do I know? So, I just started contacting people. And I, you know, and it kind of snowballed into kind of almost a full-time thing after a while. And then eventually the police commission sided with me. They had been 100% in favor of the program. And in about four or five months, I convinced them that it was not worth going forward with it. And they voted to end the program. And the chicks won't leave you alone. That's exactly why I did it. Now, a lot of people who are activists, watchdogs, whatever word you want to use, tend to get involved in different issues, different aspects of the same issue. What's the scope of your involvement? What else do city officials have to worry about besides laws and parking when it comes to dealing with Mr. Jay Bieber? Well, they have to be reasonable and smart. So, they have to actually worry about everything. But, you know, look, I've weighed in on a lot of things having to do with traffic laws and the way that citizens are. I'm on my neighborhood council. I'm on the second vice president of my neighborhood council in Sherman Oaks. And it's one of these things where you have to keep a watch out on what the city government is doing because, unfortunately, not all the time are they doing, you know, the people's work. They're just kind of doing their own work. And pretty much what I look for are things that actually affect people's lives every day. And a lot of that is people's interaction with, you know, the police department on kind of silly little things like a camera ticket or, you know, whether they're giving tickets. There are people crossing the street after the countdown timer starts and, you know, hundreds of dollars tickets for nonsense. I mean, it's silly stuff. But it affects everybody's life. And parking is another one of the things. You think about parking and it's like, oh, it's kind of a silly issue. But it affects so many people. And it, to some extent, can really ruin somebody's, you know, life or their ability to make a living if their car gets taken away because they got too many parking tickets. Yeah. I mean, they say don't sweat the small stuff. But on the other hand, you don't necessarily get all. I have to get all stressed out about it to think about it. I used to teach comedy traffic school. And it really generated what, for me, was a lot of interesting conversations. It just kind of made you think about what's fair, what's not. You know, life is about conflict, you know. It really is. I mean, it's not the only thing it's about. It's a big part of the human experience. It's about love and conflict. Yeah, right. So, therefore, life is about how you resolve conflicts. And that's what driving is all about. You're constantly having to stop. When you don't. You don't want to stop. You want to go this way or go that way. And how do you deal with this, you know? And what does it say about you, you know, in terms of how you handle it? Well, the city really ought to be. Did we say it was time for you to talk yet? I don't remember saying that. Too bad. Let's bring Steve in. I mean, basically, you know, I do what I want when I want. So, get used to it. All right. We're here. We're queer. Get used to it. All right. So, anyway, you know, I mean, the city, you know, needs to be about facilitating people's movement around from one place to another, not getting in the way. You know, right now, I mean, a crucial part of any trip is finding a place to put the damn car. Yeah. You know, and if you can't do that safely, securely, and without having to worry about getting an egregiously high parking fine, there's a problem. You know, this is preventing people from interacting and transacting, which is the essence of what a city is. Right. It's supposed to be just high enough to be a deterrent. Exactly. You know, we say. Let me ask you a question about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like to know the answer to this when we say it's supposed to be are we saying what what our philosophical preferences or has the legislature or in this case i guess it would be the city council who set the laws i think that is best practice best practice in municipal parking is that a fine should be sufficient to incentivize compliance uh you know and it shouldn't it shouldn't right now we have fines that are as high as they can set them without having people rioting in the streets storming city you know yeah you know and you know and and and basically you know they they would put them as high as they can because they feel like they have the right to take money out of people's pockets in order to fund the fund the uh the city government's activities if they could make them 150 dollars they would because you know they kept raising them until people basically got to the point where say no you know say no and we're there we're there we're there because people are saying no through us they're saying no all right but the city needs the money they're addicted to the money they're lusting for these fines and you guys have an argument you're saying that you can present a new policy that actually will increase revenue while bringing down the fine sure are you a magician or are you crazy or what is that for real if you if you take if you take parking revenue and intelligently invest it in in uh in new parking supply that that increases property values that increases sales tax that increases business tax uh and also fees to whatever new facilities that that you that you build you're you're increasing revenue so over time you can replace anything that's lost uh you know in terms of parking fine revenue with with tax revenue from economic activity and what about the neighborhood that we're in right now you talk about increasing taxes if people if more people came downtown they'd buy more stuff and the city would make more money in sales tax and business tax right so what's the story on that why why do i see municipal parking lots in ritzy beverly hills free or at a relatively low rate in ritzy santa monica but you come downtown to los angeles and it costs like eight dollars every 20 seconds what's up with that well i think the the the economics are different you know according to you know wherever you're wherever you are in in in i'm sure it's very different in beverly hills uh where they can get away with giving away two hours of free parking um but you know you you could conceivably have a structure where two hour or an hour free parking is offered through validation you know and then the the the businesses in the area choose to pay into that program so they're paying for the parking and they're paying for the parking and they're paying for the parking for the validation to give you the customer that one hour free parking so that you'll come to your to to your business and spend money now you're a financial analyst in real life well this is real market analyst yeah okay because i you know i mean i'm not going to claim that i've stock market is not real by the way i mean it's pretty much all a figment but you know all right i'm not sure what is real but just if you have any guidelines at any point let me know um so so what i'm trying to say is i haven't i don't claim to have done any figuring here right it just seems like common sense that uh if you can go to other parts of the city to do similar things buy similar products do whatever without having to pay to park you'll do it so that's exactly true and and it's why isn't it i haven't even heard any i haven't even heard the downtown merchants screaming about this is it not even a controversy or i'm just not listening you guys know well well i mean we're hearing it we're hearing it from them i mean you know i i have uh somebody who actually lives in my neighborhood but he has a business downtown and he's screaming about it because he can't there's no place to unload his truck i mean and he's getting tickets left and right people are not going to his business i mean it's yeah I mean these are the kinds of things that people when they make a decision as to what city they want to locate their business in they take these things into account yeah you know people have a choice to some extent and they're going to go elsewhere unless you make it easy for them to have a business unless you make it easy for their customers to get to them now in San Pedro which is too well for the last few years and they said hey give us a break get rid of these parking meters and you know what the city did they said okay they yanked the parking meters right out of there and it's free parking and they had the help of their city councilman to to do that and and partially is because there were other options for people and they were saying you know people are going to go where it's most convenient or it's easiest where the cost is not much whether it's you know free or whether it's a buck or two but once you start getting into eight nine ten dollars to park and then go shop people are not going to be able to get to the parking lot and they're not going to do that they're just not going to and and this all of this needs to be factored in and considered in any and any commercial district or residential district as well it needs to parking is a managed parking well managed parking is a service that the city should be providing to the businesses and the residents of the city right now we don't really have that we basically have a revenue collection system that's what passes for parking management in Los Angeles you know a system by which they can get their parking and they can get their parking and they can get their parking and they can get their parking and they can get their parking and they can get their parking they some a lot of people say uh that the situations that that that uh result in a lot of tickets are that way intentionally you know that um you know it's difficult to park in some areas where and you run the risk of of of tickets in a lot of areas and and and they're happy at least happy to leave it that way because it results in in more revenue for the city yeah that's not managing parking that's collecting money that's true and there's an analogy to that to the red light cameras which is very interesting analogy which is that in places where they were generating a lot of tickets that means that there was an engineering problem at that intersection there was something they could fix but they were more than happy and there are plenty of cities that still do this like Beverly Hills where they're more than happy to keep churning those tickets they won't fix the problem wasn't there an issue about the the yellow lights being that's exactly yes exactly and there's a whole there's still an issue with that and I've actually gotten that change for the entire state and those are that's coming out in uh uh in the next couple of years uh next month so you're single-handedly making everyone in California go bankrupt well no I'm helping all the citizens yeah it's interesting we've been talking about people were getting tickets every year in the city of Los Angeles that are not getting tickets right now for red light camera tickets well you really are a hero in the making if this revenue thing works out as you say it well now we're talking we've talked so far about what's good policy but that's not the only rap against our wonderful city uh the the other part of it is that they've been acting unlawfully and you guys aren't the only ones breathing down their necks there's a lawsuit pending and it looks like it's going to be certified as a class action lawsuit that focuses on a lot of illegal aspects in terms of how parking laws are enforced and somebody else just filed a lawsuit and got a judge to rule that uh the xerox Corporation which is in charge of issuing these tickets uh has been making uh decisions the first step when you contest a parking ticket and a judge says no you can't have some private Corporation making this decision you the city of Los Angeles the law actually says that the issuing agency which is the city of Los Angeles or the Department of Transportation of the city of Los Angeles has to do the review that's the way the the law is written so it doesn't anticipate doesn't say you can farm that out to somebody so that's really what the issue is is whether you can farm that out to somebody that can do that review especially a company which is also doing the processing of the tickets and all of those things and who gets more money if you don't pay your ticket later on and it goes to collections and they have to end that to collect more they now get a larger piece of it right and in the time since I founded Los Angeles Parking Freedom initiative in November there have been at least three uh class action lawsuits against the the city of Los Angeles with real with regards to parking up completely independently of our effort. So what does that tell you? Well, the stars are aligning, and I think the time has come. And you've got the mayor responding to you. Jay already has some credibility from the camera issue. And you're meeting with the mayor now, and I saw in the news, he came out and he talked to the cameras. And it looks like it's just a matter of time, and maybe you don't know exactly how it's going to be reformed, but it will be reformed. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've proposed a plan already, and that's in the process of being vetted through the working group on parking reform together with the city. And so there's going to be an outcome from that in about four months from now, roughly. And at that point, the city can either adopt it, the city council can pass it into law, adopt it and make it happen, or we can take it to a ballot initiative and get it passed that way. Right. And then we- If you get enough signatures, the city will have another choice to pass it. By the way, I don't really know, but something inside of me thinks this ruling that was just issued is a major thing. And specifically, what I'm thinking about is if it's illegal, and a judge has said it's illegal for this corporation to be making this decision, what does that say about all the tickets that were not reviewed properly? And it's not the only thing that's going on that could potentially fall into that class of illegality. What I'm saying is maybe there's a few zillion dollars owed to people. Well, there's that. Very well bid. There's that. And for example, right now, we're dealing with numerous reports from people, probably those people that are going to be nodding their heads on the radio right now when they hear this, of receiving tickets via the mail rather than having them handed to you or put on your car. And this is, this is, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, allow, the state vehicle code only when a driver leaves the scene before the officer has a chance to put it on the car or hand it to the driver. But what they're doing is annotating a whole list of license plates and then later on mailing in the tickets. You can't do that. Yeah. This is why I love you guys, because a lot of people would say, oh, what's the big deal? And whether or not that's the answer. Here's the thing. They'll come to you and say what you did was illegal. So they got to follow the rules, too. That is the perfect. Oh, I love you guys. You know, we should share a summer home together. Just sit around. Here's another one. Here's another one. We received documents from the city of San Diego's city attorney office, and they did research and basically came to the conclusion that it's essentially illegal for California cities to take money from parking meter revenue and put it in the jury. And that's what they're doing. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And they're doing it. And for general use because that's basically taking a fee and turning it into a tax. So that's illegal throughout California or that's in LA? Throughout California. Now, routinely, the city of Los Angeles takes that parking meter revenue. It goes into something called the Special Parking Revenue Fund, which is supposed to segregate that money so that it's used for parking. But that's not what happens. They end up taking the money every single year and transfer it into the general fund. So if the city of San Diego attorney's office is right about their determination, that's illegal too. All right. I got one for you. I bet you guys have never heard or considered this. The vehicle code, which supersedes any local law, says very clearly that every driver of every vehicle must obey the entire vehicle code at all times. Except where it's explicitly said in the vehicle code that they're exempt or local authorities can make their own laws. That's absolutely true. Okay. So get this. The vehicle code says that it gives a list of exemptions that includes authorized emergency vehicles, police, fire, and so forth, are allowed exemptions only when they're responding to an emergency. It doesn't say anything about that. Okay. So it's not about them being allowed to violate the vehicle code when they're enforcing parking laws. That's not an emergency, right? Okay. Yeah. So don't they violate the law constantly? Isn't it their job description? They're impeding the flow of traffic. They're parking at red curbs. They're parking in front of fire hydrants. Well, Steve and I are going to get out a ticket book and we're going to go and we're going to start ticketing the enforcement officers. Guess what? I tried to make a citizen's arrest one time of a parking enforcement cop in Beverly Hills. And how did that work out? Well, I'll tell you what happened. It was already a pet peeve of mine. This is when I was teaching traffic school. So I had a copy of the vehicle code in the car with me. So I'm driving down the street in Beverly Hills. It's whatever the street is that's one street south of Wilshire Boulevard around... High Olympic. Yeah, between Olympic and Wilshire near Beverly Drive, around that neighborhood. And so I see there's an intersection and they all have red curbs. And there's four parking enforcement cops. And they're parked at the red curb. And there's plenty of legal spaces available. And the reason curbs are red at intersections is because it's not safe to park there because it blocks the vision. Right. And the Department of Transportation said exactly that to me yesterday in one of our meetings. You know, red curb, oh, that's not a safe place to park. We have to ticket for that because it's not a safe place to park. Yeah, okay. So they acknowledge that. So here, this is just, they always break the law all the time. But here I see four of them at all, parked at all four of these red curbs. And I said, well, that's too much for me. So I got out of the car and I let them have it. And I got a bad attitude in return. No kidding. Yeah, and it annoyed me. So I said, well, you know, I happen to know that you can make a citizen's arrest for any public offense. A lot of people think it's just for felonies, this, that, but it can be for anything. And there's no law that says you can't make a citizen's arrest of a cop. It might be dangerous, but you can do it. So I said, well, you know what? I'm going to make a citizen's arrest of you. You are right now under citizen's arrest. So they're like freaking out. One of them calls the police, you know, the kind that have guns, not the parking enforcement ones. So a squad car comes out. And we get into this argument. And I'm showing him what the vehicle code says. It's right there. He didn't have much of an argument. But he just refused to do anything about it. So the next day I go into the Beverly Hills police station. And I have a tape recorder hidden inside me. I wanted to record the conversation. And I was, you know, arranged for a meeting to complain about what happened. And they take me into some room and I'm talking to them. And in the middle of it, they see like the little red record light that's inside just kind of barely showing through my pocket. So the cop goes, are you recording this conversation? And I really just said nothing. I was like a deer caught in headlights. So basically I got caught. And he took his like clipboard or something and he slammed it on the table with such force that everybody in the station came running out there thinking like I was getting beaten up or something. And then they left me in the room for a while. And then, I don't know, he was threatening to arrest me for some ridiculous thing. There's a wiretapping law. Yeah, sure. Something or other. And anyway, I got scared and just sort of got all apologetic and just got out of there. So that's my story. It helps when you're going after the police for doing something illegally not to do something illegal yourself. Except I don't think it is illegal. I just got scared. Well, you actually, in terms of wiretapping law, if there's an expectation of privacy, you have to do it. You have to do it. If there's an expectation of privacy, you were in an enclosed space, you weren't out on the street or whatever. Well, that's a gray area. That's a gray area. I think you can't record secretly. Well, yeah, but it was the people. I understand what you're saying. But it's a little bit of a gray area. So you're under citizen's arrest. By you? Oh, my God. All right. So you guys have a long list of things that I don't know how you find the time for all this. What are the priorities here? I see this whole parking reform. Well, first of all, let me ask you. Because I was the one who brought up the unlawfulness. Are you guys also addressing the illegal behavior or are you more focused on policy? Well, you know, we're taking a pretty much overall systemic look at the entire picture. And, you know, I guess the determinations that we came to in terms of what essentially has to change is that parking revenue needs to be separated from the general funds so that there's no longer basically an in-house parking. Right. Right. And there's no longer an incentive to aggressively collect money from the public to plug up holes in the general budget. It needs to be segregated into a special fund that's used for parking and related, you know, purposes. And to give some numbers on that, every year the Department of Transportation gets a budget number and it's about $160 million. And it says you are expected to collect this much money in parking fines. And if they don't do it, they don't come close to that, they don't do it, they got a problem. So everything is informed by that, even all the way down to the officers on the street. You know, whether they decide to give somebody a break or don't, some will, some won't. But they all know that if they don't in general get $160 million in revenue, someone's going to be screaming at them. So this is part of the problem. And the second thing that needs to change is that that revenue generation orientation needs to be replaced. That that education needs to be replaced by a public service orientation. That, you know, that parking management needs to be viewed as a public service, you know, to businesses and residents and the general citizenry of the city. And that's the essential. Now, how do you make that happen institutionally? The nuts and bolts, the granular details of bringing that about. And taking this dysfunctional system. Right. And replacing it with a functional parking management system. That's what we're digging into. And I think one of the reasons why Jay and I have gotten as far as we've gotten with this is that, yeah, there's a lot to complain about. And, yeah, there's a lot of finger pointing that you could do. But we haven't really focused on the finger pointing or the complaining. We've been focused on, hey, what could we do to actually make this better and work better for the citizens, for the businesses, and for the city as well? And for the parking officers. I mean, one of the things that we're discussing is the ability to give a warning ticket. Okay. Now, the parking officers are out there and they have to show that they're productive, whatever that means, that they're doing something. Otherwise, they come back with, you know, two tickets. They're going to be like, what have you been doing all day? So the parking officers feel this pressure to give tickets when they see something wrong. But if it's something that's kind of minor and they would just want to give a warning, how do they then prove that they've actually been productive? So we said if you could, if they can give a warning. If they can give a warning ticket, which comes through their little handheld machine and all, and it goes into the system as a warning ticket, they can give a warning. But then they can also prove that they're being productive. And so this helps both sides of it. So, you know, I think it's a win-win for everybody concerned. Okay. Well, we're just about out of time. But one thing I want to mention is that as I understand it, you guys, I won't say are threatening, but you've certainly made it known that one of the options here is that you're going to go for a ballot initiative. Is that right? And if they don't change the policy without that. That was the initial idea. I mean, when I started it, I thought, well, there's just simply no way they're going to change any of this unless we just take it to a ballot initiative. So when I started the whole thing, I just said we're going to a ballot initiative right off the top. That got some people's attention, apparently. And I think they'd rather not see that happen. And they know that if it does go to a ballot initiative, it'll pass. I mean, there's no question. Well, this show is about changing policy. Okay. I just want you to know that I co-founded a PAC called the California Justice Committee, and we sued the California Secretary of State about ballot access, and we won. We had the ACLU represent us. And this is an issue that I think we would take up with you if you guys decide it's necessary. So just remember that. Thank you. We're going to win this. Yes. There's no question. But there's one thing. Now that it's going to be changed. We do need everyone to join our website, parkinglosangeles.org. So everybody go there right now, parkinglosangeles.org. And you can tell us your story. You can tell us your parking story. That is a good URL because it's easy to remember. Now that we've bonded and I think we like each other, I hope that you'll allow me to say that I don't like the name Los Angeles Parking Freedom Initiative. I just think it's too long, too hard to remember. Please consider it. What would you say? Oh, I don't know. I mean, it could be any number of things. It's just something that's easy to remember. The next time we do it, we'll come and check with you first. It's an important issue. Well, hold on. Don't. It's important. Jeff, that's the first complaint I've ever gotten about the name. First. You're the first one. It's like net neutrality. You are the first one. You know why net neutrality is going the way it is? It's because people didn't even know what it is. I don't. Yeah. It's a terrible phrase. All right. Just think about it. Nobody wants to be told it. One of you probably came up with the name, right? Hey. I'm pointing at Steven. Never had a complaint before now. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. All right. It could be just me or it could be everybody else who's shy. It's just you. Yeah. All right. All right. He takes criticism well. I love you guys very much. Thank you so much. And on Facebook, you want to give your Facebook address? Yeah. It's facebook.com slash parking Los Angeles. See? You do know how to keep things simple. Yeah. All right. Let's take a break. You want to show the Eric Garner video? And I don't know if Jessica's on the line. I hope she is. Okay, good. Thank you so much. We're going to talk about Eric Garner next. And you guys can towel down. It's pretty hot in here. Thank you. And you put the camera out. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. Once again, police beating up on people. Back up. Back up and get on that step. Okay. Back up. All he did was break up a fight. And this is what happens for breaking up a fight. All right, that's a portion of the video that has now been seen by about 38 billion people. It's quite the controversy in New York. Although Steven Vincent here in the studio is finding out about it for the first time. But that's okay. You're a busy guy. No, no. I just knew it as the cigarette guy. I didn't know his name was Eric Garner. Oh, okay. Well, I know it as Eric Garner. That's a good name for a black guy. So that was one of the racist things I saw on, I think it was a cop website, that he appropriated a white person's name or something. Anyway, it's a very interesting case. And on the phone now is Jessica Burke, who founded an organization called RID, which stands for Residents in Distress. Does that refer to indigestion, Jessica? Are you there, Jessica? Yeah, that's what I was asking if she's actually on the line. I don't hear her. Yeah, she was calling me here on my phone, so I thought that... Okay. All right, so we're going to try to get Jessica back on the line. And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... And... It's okay. I haven't heard of anything, you know, everything out there too. Well, you know, I mean, let's put it this way. I actually purposefully try to not know about most of what happens in the world. Okay. So when something I do actually hear about it, it must be, you know, kind of big, you know. So I have heard chatter about a man being choked out and killed by cops because he was selling cigarettes in New York City. Yeah, everybody's calling it a chokehold. And this has really elicited some strong feelings in me. I always try to be fair and look at both sides of it. And often I think people decide somebody is evil and maybe they are in some respects, but they don't quite analyze the problem in the fairest way. And one of the things that I think people are jumping to prematurely is the conclusion that it was in fact a chokehold. Chokehold. Are you on the line now, Jessica? I am on the line, Jeff. All right, baby. Welcome. So let me just finish this thought. So a chokehold is just a word. By the way, Jessica, our parking enforcement guys from L.A. are sticking around for this. They just couldn't drag themselves away from this when they heard I was going to be talking to you about this. I'm excited. Good, good, good. So a chokehold is just a word, you know. Actually, what's prohibited, according to New York City's policy, is applying pressure to the windpipe. But putting one's arm around a neck is not automatically prohibited. So the video that we just showed, clearly the cop does have his arm around Eric Garner's neck. But I don't think it actually is clear that he's pressing on his windpipe. And so, therefore, it may not be an illegal chokehold. And what I think is the most important part of this case, and it's being ignored by almost everyone, is that there was no probable cause to arrest him to begin with. So it doesn't matter what kind of a tactic they used to restrain him. No tactic was legal because there was no probable cause. And nobody's even asking about it. All we have is a report that the police suspected him of selling cigarettes. But nobody is pressuring the police to say, well, who is the person that saw him selling cigarettes illegally? There's a million news stories out there. Not one of them mentions. And this makes my head explode. What do you think, Jessica? Well, I think, first of all, we don't want your head exploding. So let me step in and try to calm you down a little bit. I agree mostly with what you said, except you seem overly focused on the probable cause from my way of thinking. The police in New York City, especially in the last, shall we say, 10 years, pretty much. Do as they want. This happens time and time again. And the only reason we're all talking about this and all obsessed with it is because we have a video that shows a man dying and begging for help. Had a video not been made, this would have been just another death that the police would have gotten away with. So the chokehold itself, to me, actually, I agree, is the least important part. The behavior of the police doesn't change no matter what the subject matter. So it doesn't matter whether there was a crime or whether there wasn't a crime because to approach a civilian who is clearly unarmed and escalate a situation from what could be a simple, unscrupulous, unscrupulous criminal offense is still unscrupulous. But to launch an inquiry or asking for ID or whatever was going on, we don't know how it started and have it wind up with someone dead. And the Reverend Sharpton once again taking over our airways is unforgivable. Well, I don't understand why you're you're telling me that I'm focusing too much on probable cause. You just said that this happens over and over again. To me probable cause is everything. Probable cause is the thing that is supposed to prevent the police from having to deal with us. That is unscrupulous. That is unscrupulous. hassling us just because they feel like it and you and other people are saying this is exactly what goes on so why is it why am i too focused on it because because it's been proven time and time again particularly to those of us who live in the city and experience it on a daily basis that it's it's the police ignore the requirements for probable cause we understand that so therefore i should therefore i shouldn't scream about it that's that's the reason to scream about no no uh please i mean you are we are talking about this on on the show so i understand your need to want to get to the bottom of it but my point is would it make you happier if they had um observed him committing a violation selling cigarettes and even if they had photographed it and they actually had him dead to rights on that you would that make you happier never mind that he wound up dead because of a minor infraction yeah i'm it would make me happy i'm sitting here with two guys who just said very succinctly in the last segment that what matters is what's lawful you can't be changing the law because of you know what seems uh you know what what the vibes that you feel uh if they have your point i see your point but to me what matters is that someone was asking for help in that i believe the four ambulance attendants completely ignored him and and actually what's to me to my mind what's more shocking and more relevant is not that the cop did something wrong whether or not his hand was choked was around the guy's windpipe or not but that when the ambulance drivers the emt arrived they not only ignored him but they proved they provided him absolutely no medical attention we here expect the police to act like schmucks we don't we don't usually see that from our emt's to me this is the the thrust of the story well i think that's outrageous too and and for for jay and steven's benefit and our listeners who may not be familiar with all the details of this story we we should explain that uh after the so-called chokehold was administered uh garner became you know limp was just lying there and he was just lying there and he was lying on the sidewalk and uh took a while for paramedics to get there and then when they did show up there's a separate videotape of them milling about in a very leisurely fashion and i agree with you that that is outrageous but it's not as important to talk about for the simple reason that there's not too many people disagreeing about it so far as i know it's not a a chronic problem i don't think i'm not aware of paramedics not giving medical attention in general that these paramedics were suspended and it's not an ongoing controversy like the problem with the police is on the street so you know well that's why that's why i'm so shocked by this behavior because you're correct there i can't remember a time where a paramedic has behaved in this manner um and in fact i i i don't think anyone could cite this so what what's shocking to me is the immediate response really it's surprising i shouldn't say shocking of the police commissioner to actually identify it immediately as a chokehold before it was actually proven to be such so it to me i don't care whether or not a police officer took a knife and stabbed him in the back of the head the question to me i mean i care the question is why would they approach an individual who doesn't seem to be from the video doesn't appear to be engaged in anything dangerous or violent and then allow their behavior to escalate the situation to have somebody dead the fact that you i can appreciate you want everyone wants to find out what caused them to approach him in the first place what whether or not they have legitimate cause but the police continuously have uh oodles and oodles of legitimate cause when they approach a prostitute and drug dealers okay right right well yeah this is steven hey and i really appreciate uh you know you're educating us on this i think i kind of have maybe have a little bit of an answer to that and i think you know it goes a little bit further than jeff's argument about probable cause to presumption of guilt it's almost as if uh law enforcement and we see the same kind of behavior essentially in parking enforcement which is what we deal with traffic enforcement and traffic enforcement you're kind of just assumed to be guilty you know you're just assumed to be a bad guy yeah and i think this may have also um not to completely cut you off which i just did you know basically you know you're presumed you're you're you're presumed to be guilty if not of this particular instance you're guilty of something therefore you're you're you're deserving of treatment that is you know paramount with a guilty person right and this guy had a reputation uh which you know i assume it's true i don't even know but uh he's known as somebody who habitually sells cigarettes on the oh my god and i think that oh my god he's he's known as somebody who sells cigarettes on the street right yeah i get your sarcasm you mean no but i'm telling you i think that i think that's what happened right he broke up a fight apparently and that's why the cops were on the scene and so then they saw this guy who they know to be a guy who who sells cigarettes illegally and they hassled him but but i don't think he was doing it at that time and i think that's part of the the point of you know of the relationship sometimes between the police and and the public which is they think of it as the civilians and the police there's this there's this wall and and to some extent it may inform us as to what happened with the paramedics which is once you got a guy down and the police are milling around like oh they got a bad guy down as opposed to oh my god there's a citizen that needs help and that may have informed you know what what was going on in their minds of not rushing to it and whatnot i don't know what was in their minds they can explain i disagree i can't disagree more strongly i work very closely in this community in new york city i live in greenwich village and work as a community activist and i my experience with dozens of paramedics is that they are trained to respond to a to a person sick and ill and i have seen them go over to the most disgusting criminal sorts and attempt to calm the patient and uh even when the patient is in handcuffs they are treat always treating the person's needs they tend not to treat the person as a victim i mean excuse me as a criminal suspect they treat them as an injured individual and um so i don't know what went on here but i but i it seems to me from what i've gleaned that they already knew he was dead they they may have been not doing their job correctly but no one has said they were stupid i i think that there was no pulse and therefore they they knew there wasn't anything to be done and instead of immediately attempting anyway to revive him they all milled around and some of them were laughing so it's frightening that the officer that uh committed this act was was uh i believe he was caught making a sarcastic comment about being photographed so just to clarify i thought you were talking about the police not the paramedics or what are you talking about sort of both where there's where there's where there is this sort of idea that you know someone's a bad guy or whatever and they're and they're afforded less courtesy than than the the general public would otherwise be i don't know what's going on i think i agree with jessica that that the police may have that attitude but uh these paramedics are usually part of the fire department and i think most which is why i'm surprised is what goes on so i'm just trying to i think most of the people they see are kind of like the overcome people i'm not even saying they're saying somebody they might encounter on the street i'm saying when the police are milling around and you know they got a bad guy there and they're kind of joking around with them and maybe you know they're sort of seen on the same team you know there may be some of that going on i don't know who these people were or what what was in their minds i don't think anybody knows until they speak up and say what was in there yeah it may not be typical behavior jessica um can you tell us a little bit about what your organization is residents in distress well um thank you for promoting that um rid as it's known here in and we're infamous particularly in the sixth precinct uh in new york's greenwich village originally was started to um improve the quality of life uh particularly in the west village but at the time and then i started it and it's about 10 years old um the quality of life in the city was just down the drain and i began expanding rid and i would visit other precincts and meet with the commander of the police and the police officers and community meetings to try to meet the needs of the community so so obviously if if it's 10 o'clock at night and an old person or a child can't feel safe going to the store for milk we have a problem what's known as quality of life crimes doesn't generally get a lot of attention because naturally the police are um focusing their resources on you know violent crimes and felonies bank robberies but in our community we have a lot of people who are really concerned about the quality of life and we have a lot of people who are really concerned about the quality of life so if you put out the violence you put out the violence you put out the violence think, the sixth, there isn't a lot of violent crime, thank God. So the quality of life crimes, such as low-level street crime, muggings, or even, believe it or not, masturbation, public nudity, it's a big deal where we live, and the police tend not to do much about it. So our position has been to photograph and videotape the offender in the commission of the crime. Do you have a website where we can see these images? We publicize it as much as we can to try to clean up the condition. You live in the West Village, right? That's correct. I live on the famous, or rather, shall we say, infamous Christopher Street. Now, you mentioned quality of life, and thank you for ignoring my childish joke there about the much-needed crime. I'm sorry. I'm not watching those images on the internet. But you mentioned quality of life, and that's kind of at the heart of the controversy here is Bratton, who was the L.A. police commissioner, or police chief, what was he called, the police chief or commissioner here? Chief. Chief. And I think he's called the commissioner there, is this big quality of life guy. You know, that's his policy is based on going after these- Right, that was the broken windows theory, I believe, right? Yeah. So it sounds like you, Jessica, have sort of a nuanced take on that. You think, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like you're kind of for it, but it depends on the particular neighborhood and what the crime level is? No, no, no, no, no. What it really is, first of all, we detest it when I say we. I mean, every one of my, so to speak, my fellow community activists, we just were rubbed the wrong way immediately by Bill Bratton. He was, I just have no respect for him. I found him personally disgusting and such a sleazy character. So while his broken windows theory is based on the broken windows theory, made sense technically, when Ray Kelly became police commissioner, it was much more palatable and he was a much more honorable individual and it was easier to take because he used compassion in dealing with the person. He was also very, very clear to instruct the police to respect everyone. And so while we had a number of police officers all of a sudden doing their job, which they never had to do before, they also did it with extra charm and finesse so that it wasn't uncommon to see officers strolling up and down Christopher Street and basically patting these individuals on the back and saying, do me a favor, move along. You know, it's a nice night and this and that. And they were very smooth and they were not violent or angry. And actually the purpose appreciated being treated with respect. And the goal was just to calm them down. And so I think that's what we're trying to do. We need to clear the street. We need to be able to walk down the street with our puppies and our children and our grandmothers. And we don't want to see people lounging around on our stoops and smoking pot. I mean, I don't mind looking at people smoking pot, but the community was beginning to really be overloaded with all of these individuals and some homeless hotels were cropping up on every corner. People were just screaming at all hours. And so. If the police encounter resistance when they ask an individual to move, he or she may be involved in the most minor of offenses. But if they put up a struggle or the police perceive they're being resisted, then technically they are within their right to use whatever force necessary to subdue them. If they had probable cause. If they had probable cause. If they don't have probable cause and they're not within their rights. That's why probable cause is everywhere. Well, but Jeff, here's the thing. The police don't need probable cause in order to talk to someone. They can approach anyone at any time. That's true. That's true. That's true. But to make an arrest, to make an arrest. Can I see your ID? They do not need probable cause. That's some conversation. Hi, can I see your ID? But they do that here all the time. Can I see your ID if the police come up to you? Yeah. Unless they suspect you of something. I mean, they can talk to you all they want, but you know, you're free to leave at any time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're free to leave at any time unless they're detaining you and they have to have probable cause. You are free to leave at any time, but I myself have been detained a number of times. They say to me, hi, Ms. Burke, what are you doing here? And my answer is, why is that your business? And pretty soon it deteriorates into, can I see your ID? And I say, why do you need to see my ID? You know who I am. Yes, but this and that. And when are you planning? How long are you planning to stay? And you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the name, you put out the Am I being detained? Cut the crap, Jesse. Get right to it. I had this conversation three days ago. I asked the lieutenant, why am I being detained? He said, I'm not detaining you. You're free to go. And then when I tried to open the door of the precinct, he put his foot in front of me. And I said, shall I jump over that? And he said, go ahead. I'm not stopping you. And as I attempted to lift my foot to get out the door, I could clearly see that he was wanting to detain me. And I finally had to say to him, either back up or make an arrest. I mean, if they want to screw with you, they will. And apparently they definitely wanted to bother Mr. Garner that day or they would not have treated him in that manner. Let me ask you a question just about sort of. Just your sense of what the mood is in the city now. I lived in New York for 10 years during the 80s. And one of the differences between New York and L.A. is that the tabloids are real big in New York. And everybody rides the train and reads the New York Post and the Daily News while they're on the train. And so when there's stories that get real big from time to time, they get really big. And it's like everywhere you go, everybody is talking about it. Here, not so much, I think, because. There's no tabloids. Not as many people ride the subways and so forth. So is this one of those stories now, Jessica, in New York where it's like the thing that everybody's talking about and it's going to be going on for a while? Well, well, Jeff, today I had a busy day today. As a brief aside, it was Professor Erwin Corey's 100th birthday party. And I had my mind on the queen of non sequiturs. I could not have a conversation. Today. Today, it didn't include the death of Eric Garner. Everybody from the 80-year-old guy in the bakery to the man I met at the bus stop. That's all anybody wants to talk about. And that's all over. That's funny because I want to talk about Professor Erwin Corey. I'm sure we only have two minutes left. Did you talk to the professor about this or about anything? The professor was after eating cake and getting congratulations, wanted to talk about the Palestinians. And indicated that the Hebrews or the hebes were only on that land for a little while that it belonged to the Palestinians. Since he was speaking in the actor's temple, people were trying to shut him up. I thought that was admirable of him to still want to be controversial at his age. So a hundred years old. Is he in pretty good shape for a hundred or what? He is sharp as a tack. He needs help walking. But other than that, he. He knows he still can spot a pretty woman. And he's you know, I understand he has a good appetite for everything. God bless him. And great choice of words. Turn out. You guys know Professor Erwin Corey, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not personally. No. Yeah. Well, I actually know him personally a little bit. I have a we don't have enough time to tell it, but I have a great Professor Erwin Corey story. All right, Jessica, you are the sweeter than typical honey. And if Van Morrison hasn't written a song about that already, he should. I. Mr. Norman, thank you for having me on. A Norman report dot com is our website and we're linking to your Facebook page, Jessica, the red page, that is, and also to the parking initiative phase. Jessica, you've done some work in PR. What do you think of the name of their organization? Steven's looking at me like he's going to kill me. The name of the name of their campaign is the Los Angeles Parking Freedom Initiative. I'd say I'd say it. Me. It's a little bit of a touch up. But sure. Everybody's a critic. Shorter. You need it's got to be easy to remember, right? I think it needs to have it needs to have a little bit. Yes, it has to have a like red that that's the meat immediately when it became red. It's an acronym. An acronym. Yeah, that spells a word. All right. See what the see what Professor Corey thinks. I hate acronyms. Is the world's specifically picked the name so it couldn't be an acronym. Exactly. Each is on each of them. All right. Thanks a lot, Jessica. Take care. Thank you, James. Even appreciate you sticking around for this segment, too. And we're at Norman report dot com. Tune in next week every Tuesday night here on Skid Row Studios. This is Jeff Norman saying nighty night. Norman. The Norman report.