Men's mental health with Dr. Jen DeFeo

this is julianne good and you're listening to psych one-on-one we're here to make psychology interesting understandable and we're going to give you some tips to make your life and your family's life much easier hopefully so tonight my special guest is dr jen defao she is a returning guest and one of my favorite people to be speaking to so we're going to have a good time talking about men's mental health issues uh dr defao can you tell us a little bit about your background sure i um i received my phd from alliant international university down in san diego california uh my specialty was is working with severely mentally ill children and adolescents and now focusing on men's mental health so that's a little bit about me well thank you i my first question for you is how would you describe the current state of men's mental health well actually they called the the silent crisis and the reason being is that men are you know sort of trained to not express emotion to not show their feelings to sort of man up which means to not emotionally express things and so this is huge this is a huge crisis that we have going on right now and so that's the goal of why i'm doing this and why i do a lot of trainings on men men's mental health for that reason yeah it it seems like it is a specialty you just can't lump that everybody thinks the same men and women i mean that's been proven scientifically for a while now and i think it's going to be a wonderfulенденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденденд They will cry. They will tell you, you know, this is how I'm feeling. Whereas men hold it in because they're taught to do that. And so, um, for example, this is a good example, four times more than women, men complete suicide four times more than women. And so that's because there's no outlet for them to be able to express the emotion, to get the stuff out that they need to get out. And so what do they do? They, they think suicide is the only answer. And then they suppress and implode and commit suicide. That's tragic. Exactly. So would you say then, um, that this expression of the depression has changed over the last few years or it's kind of the same as it has been? Do you think it's been any kind of change whatsoever? I think there has been a change. I mean, there is this movement to sort of help men and, and, and to sort of teach men how to, you know, express their feelings and that's okay. You know, it is a cultural, there's a large cultural, um, component to that. But I think the fact is, is that, you know, men tend to express it differently than women. So we're not catching the signs. I think that's where we're trying to move toward saying, okay, versus, all right, men will tell us what's wrong. I mean, when we look at the field of psychology, psychologists, therapists in general, and you look in the craft classrooms, don't maybe be in a classroom of 15, 20 students, maybe be two men because even to seek the field, as far as doing the helping part, you know, it's even filled with women. And so going back to the question, I think it's, it's becoming more of a norm, but not as much. I mean, it's, it's coming along. Slowly. Yes. Yeah. And it's obviously having to do with, you know, societal change of what is it to be a man? What is manhood? Yes. How do you define that now? Because men's roles are changing so dramatically. And I think they're kind of in a state of being lost as exactly. Who am I supposed to be here? How am I supposed to show that I'm strong yet honor my emotions? Yes. Confusing. Exactly. And, you know, there's a term, which I think many people aren't aware of. Well, I'll tell you first how I got into really looking at men's mental health. The first thing was, I remember I was in management at an organization and I had gone into the kitchen. I was there late. I'd gone into the kitchen. One other person was with me and we walked into the kitchen and I saw this like anti-man cup mug for coffee. And I was like, what is this? That's inappropriate. And it was a bash against a man or men. And I said, if this cup was something against women, HR would be in here, human resources would be in here right now. And what makes it okay for women to do that? Versus men. Versus men to do that. Right? So I threw the cup away and I said, something needs to be done. And I went out there and I started educating myself on men's mental health and there was nothing out there. I mean, the resources today are very limited for men or things that are specific to men. And so thinking about that in the process, I found a term called traumatic or trauma strain. And that's specifically relating to males and male socialization and saying that traumatic events expressed by males happen in the process of male socialization. So things like physical fights. You know, men should, you know, fight. They should be aggressive. They should be encouraged to engage in rough and tumble play to play with guns to pursue military activity to do extreme sports. to do extreme sports. And so in the process of that, men are exposed to trauma. And then we don't even think twice about that. You're right. It's just the socialization. It's the normal thing to do. And it has been for generations. And now it's just kind of changing because all of a sudden we're seeing more violence happening. Just a few days ago in Los Angeles, of course, most of the country heard about the LAX shooting. And here we go again. It's another situation with a male in his 20s and who knows why he did it this time and how many of these are happening. The numbers are going up and we're still clueless as to why this is happening. I mean, we're getting hints here and there, but it's just really, really dramatic and confusing. And that's the thing. I mean, there are so many things that people, everyday people don't understand that are related to men's mental health. And that even stems from physical health. So things like men who are tired, who experience physical pain. We look at physical pain for men as being, well, they're hard workers physically. They do a lot of manual labor, but that's actually a sign of depression. And 6 million men per year are diagnosed with depression, some sort of depressive disorder. And the way that they show it is different than women, as well as on top of that, a decreased sex drive. So what does that do to a man? With a woman or another man or whatnot? Well, you're a man, what's going on? There must be something severely wrong with you. If you can't, you can't perform, but they're looking at it from a sexual perspective, not from maybe they're depressed. Maybe they have other things going on, such as that brings me into sexual abuse. One out of six men have reported having unwanted direct contact that was sexual with somebody who was older by the time a child reaches 16 or a teenager. And so we have the statistics out there for women, that say women get raped, all of this stuff, but what about the men? It happens and people don't see that as happening. Like a man can't get raped, he's large, he's masculine. Why would he allow a woman who's feminine to sort of rape him or molest him? And it happens, one out of six men. Yeah, and I've worked with male victims before. And this shame involved with their victimhood is incredible because they're embarrassed. They can't believe that a man or a woman sat there and put them into that position. They're like, why couldn't I have fought that off? They're like blaming themselves. And the symptomatology is just incredible. And it's just so much more severe for men and then as women that I've seen. I've worked with the victims. So, and I want to reach out to the listening audience. If you would like to participate in this discussion, our number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. So Dr. DeFeo, what would you say some of the symptoms are of men's depression that we should be looking out for? That they may not be expressing? That they may be holding? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. DeFeo? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? Dr. Deендee? 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Dr. Deендee? but this is often where men go because you know to drink or whatnot as a coping skill because they they're not going to go to a therapist they're not going to tell anybody their emotions so they have to take it out and and sort of soothe it in a different way and so it's important to to notice those signs um labile mood so one minute they're really happy the next minute they they're very sad or they appear sad but we'll show it maybe an anger and so a lot of the anger management stuff that we we we see clients come in with oftentimes is an underlying depression or post-traumatic stress disorder which would be um due to some sort of um stress or that they experienced that was very traumatic for them and you know who's gonna go what man is gonna go and say i was sexually abused rarely yeah rarely it's just you know it seems to be almost like a societal taboo to again to sit there and say anything and say you know what i was weak you know because that's what they think and it's not that is not the case and anybody that is in that position should definitely go and and and get some professional help because it's out there and it's just so much more recognized with clinicians now that they have the tools to be able to compassionately deal with a situation of being molested and being raped definitely and there's this great organization that i've actually teamed up with it's called mantherapy.org and i love their approach to um treating or addressing men's mental health because they have a humorous approach to it and they kind of look at the manly ways um to make certain things happen and they're not going to be able to do it in a way that's not coping skills like breathing or yoga or cooking and they say this is the manly way to do it um and they will use you know profanity and things like that in order to be able to connect you know and say to men you know it's okay to do breathing it's okay and they incorporate the manly way into doing it it's actually rather very humorous and that's the other approach that i like about it but they have um they mirror sort of that masculine um frame of thought with like they do an 18 point head inspection and so men can go on there and and and and check themselves look for depression look for anxiety look for other things as well as they have a 24-hour hotline in which they can call if they they're having any sorts of problems um dealing with certain things depression anxiety you know anything and so i really like their approach and and their approach to it and i love their approach to it and i love their approach to it and i love their approach to it and i love their approach to it and i love their approach to they're wonderful um they get back to you right away um very knowledgeable but one of the biggest resources i would say out there for men is mantherapy.org yeah that's great that you have that that organization to refer to because i think it is important i think if if men at least can take the first step and feel okay this is confidential and i can at least explore this a little bit you know i'm not feeling quite right right now and kind of making people around me miserable and they get to that point where the red flags start flying in front of their eyes and you know say hey i've i've got to do something yeah you know and there's there's no shame or guilt in in going and getting help we all need help from time to time period definitely and it's it's a safety it's it's anybody looks at am i going to be judged when i go to a a therapist and especially men like it's taboo yeah and that's what that's the thing that we need to start working with with normalizing therapy for everybody normalizing connecting with other people instead of isolating i think that's a huge issue would would you say that's more significant with men than it is with women just you know getting to that that point of of like having a feeling like a dark hole in your soul and yes going inside definitely definitely the for men that's the the the the isolation who do i turn to well men don't cry men don't express we're not supposed to do that or they're not supposed to do that so they tend to get into this deeper deeper black hole of holding it and it's a time bomb waiting to happen and oftentimes unfortunately that time bomb is a is a gunshot to the head so yeah and it's health issues also yes you know it's been proven that men who have anger issues who go inside end up having heart disease yes period i mean that's that's been proven time and time again yeah heightened high blood pressure they're constantly in in fight or flight mode which is you know something that our body does as a protection as a way to sort of um get us out and and to feed us when we're in a state of danger and so men tend to be in fight or flight it's like being in a car and jamming on the gas you jam on that gas too much it's it's gonna hurt your car and that's what it is for men i mean higher um incident rates of heart attack stroke all of that yeah and it's just for you know not being able being you know free to express themselves you know within the proper context definitely we are going to take a commercial break i want to talk about some of the significant issues that we're going to be talking about in this podcast and i'm going to talk about some of the issues you see that's help happening in men's mental health okay sure the chicago school of professional psychology offers numerous psychology behavioral and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses los angeles california including branches in westwood and irvine chicago illinois and washington dc and online the chicago school prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health needs of men and women who are struggling to find a job in the social society through classroom experience and real-world training the chicago school counseling centers in irvine and westwood provide caring confidential and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families for more information visit the chicago school.edu and thank you to the chicago school for sponsoring psych one-on-one i if the listeners would like to participate in the chicago school counseling center inform inform inform inform inform do you need to understand about what's going on with men nowadays on psychological? One of the biggest things, and every time I talk about this and I've done trainings on this as well, men's mental health is the concept of andropause. And what andropause is, is it's the male, they call it the male menopause. And so men do go through an actual menopause. And so what are the symptoms of that? Things like depression, erectile disorder, delayed ejaculation, infertility, hair loss, decreased self-confidence, mood lability, again, that happy one minute, sad the next minute, the same exact thing that women go through, but it's an actual men's issue. What is it exactly? Well, usually around the age of 30, testosterone production decreases, and it usually decreases by like 1% every year. So by the time the male is 70 years old, they have like 50% less production. And so in that case, men's hormones are changing as well. And I think that's something that needs to be viewed and taken into consideration by doctors, by, you know, medical practitioners, of any sort, by the mental health practitioners and by women, you know, every day, because men go through the same thing as women do. And it's now becoming, you know, every time I talk about it, people are like, I didn't know that existed. And it does. And so by taking these things into consideration, we can now look at things like erectile disorder or delayed ejaculation and say, okay, this is not a problem. And so, you know, I think that's something that needs to be looked into. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. This is not a disorder as much as what the biological or the medical component is, which is the andropause. And it's natural for this to happen. And again, the psychological impact of erectile dysfunction and everything that goes along with it. I mean, so many questions come into play once that's happening. I mean, it's like the woman's like, okay, well, don't, are you not attracted to me anymore? Are you fooling around with something? Somebody, else, are you having some kind of medical issues? You know, I mean, there's so many things that women don't understand about it and they add into that shame and blame and all the other components. And I see so many couples that are in that, you know, 45 to 55 age range that start having real relationship problems just because of the andropause and they don't understand it. They don't have the education behind them. And then they, they, they do this tit for tat for, you know, you're the one to blame and I'm the one to blame and they don't go anywhere. And then they start having some real relationship problems. Exactly. And then sometimes they separate or divorce because of it. And it, it could be so easily taken care of if it was handled properly by the, you know, medical establishment, if they get into the right, you know, just the right team to have that. Yes. And it helps inform and inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform inform! inform inform inform because women are going to hear me. Like that's who we have to start catering. And I'm not woman bashing at all because I'm a woman. But what I'm saying is, is that, you know, it's almost like a reverse discrimination that women, you know, were discriminated against. And now, you know, it's kind of that reverse, like the men did this to, to us. And so let's now it's okay for us to sort of make these mugs or, you know, say these things. And it's, it's offensive. It's offensive. And I see, I've watched students, you know, as a professor at Chicago school, I've seen students, you know, a room full of women with one or two men and them make these comments. And I'm like, that's not okay. And the men look at me like, thank you. You know, almost like relief. Yeah. And it's like, it starts there. And so that's one of the things that I wanted to put out there is that, you know, look at the way that men are and boys are raised by women, as well as let's look at how we can sort of help our men to know it's okay to get help and to say, you know, it's okay to go to a therapist, you know, and there not be a stigma there. Right. And it's okay as a boy to have a whole spectrum of feelings that you're able to tap into. That's healthy. That's being human. And it shouldn't be labeled as, you know, this is manly, this is womanly, and you shouldn't be doing that. And, you know, that kind of reminds me the whole Brett Favre scenario of when he was quitting the Green Bay Packers several times, and he's breaking down and crying. Part of me was going, oh, please, you know, all this drama and stuff. But part of me was going, good for you. You're sitting there and you're really expressing some deep emotions. And this is in the context of football, one of the manliest things that we have going in this country. Yes. You know, so I'm like going, wonderful, good. Just go and, you know, shed those tears. Yeah. You know, we need to have more of that happening to have some male modeling of this is okay to feel these kind of deep emotions. Yes, definitely. And, you know, there's a couple other diseases and disorders that I want to talk about that's related to men that many people are like that that's impossible. But the other one is male breast cancer. And, you know, it's known as a woman's disease as well as an eating disorder, things like anorexia or bulimia. And so the first one I actually want to talk about is male breast cancer. And one, what people don't know is that there's a lot of people who are going to be diagnosed with breast cancer. And so how degrading is that for a man to have to say, you know, I have cancer. And, you know, whenever somebody says, I have cancer, the next question is, well, what do you have? And then what stage? And for a man to say, I have breast cancer, that's a woman's disease. Yes. So how likely are they even able to tell people that they have cancer now? And there goes even more support, you know, because they don't want people to know that they have this feminine disease. And it's very prevalent. And I want to make clear that, you know, we need to start being an activist for men when it comes to breast cancer. And that even, you know, occurs for me. My sister was, or is in remission. And so whenever I, you know, every so often, or when it hits her anniversary of being free of cancer, I'll put, all right, women go out there and get checked. But now it's all right, men and women, like men, this can happen to you. And they say in 2013, that 410 men will die due to it. And so, you know, how many, how many doctors out there are giving men breast exams? And if they're told, let me give you a breast exam, how would a man respond? You know, it's odd. And so that's another disease that I wanted to talk about because it's very demasculating, right? As well as eating disorders. Now, 10 to 15% of cases of eating disorders, specifically anorexia and bulimia, bulimia are men. And so among gay men, so if you take the gay male population, 14% have eating disorders. Yeah. You wouldn't even think of that because again, that's another one of those disorders that you think is, is prevalently, you know, female, you know, and that, you know, they only think twice about it, but you know, when it, when it happens to a man, you're just, you know, I think most of the times you're like, you know, well, you must be like chronically ill or something. They almost look at like, okay, what disease do you have? Because you're just really unbelievably thin and it just doesn't look healthy. Yes. And so a lot, unfortunately a lot for a lot of gay men, they'll get, oh, they must have HIV because that's a whole nother story we can get into. Um, but they'll make the assumption, but really it's anorexia or bulimia and men literally will not go, for treatment because they feel like it's a feminine disease. You know, at least with breast cancer, they know it's something that'll kill them, which anorexia and bulimia will kill you, but it's not known. Like people don't hear a lot of stories. Whereas with cancer, everybody's fearful of cancer. So they get the help, but it's that whole keeping it quiet. So what are some of the psychological underpinnings of a man having anorexia or bulimia? I would definitely say things like depression because the underlying theme of an eating disorder is control. And so when individuals don't feel as though they have control, which are a lot of adolescents, you're seeing adolescents ages, you know, 10, 13, 14, 15, um, being diagnosed at such a young age, it's because of the lack of control and a lack of an outlet. Right. And so for men, there is, this lack of control in a lot of ways to be able to express their feelings. And so what they're saying is, look at me, I need help, which is the underlying theme of eating disorders, period. There's, it's a cry, it's a cry for help, but it's, it's, it's unconscious. And so that's a way to say, Hey, you're getting thinner. No, no. And then they get to a certain point and it's like, you have a problem. And so that's the part that I truly believe is, and it depends on the population too. Um, but that it's control or a lack of that's their only way that they can control something. So in what ways do you think that men are losing control right now? I think with the whole, you know, here's, here's one of my theories. you see a lot of women in positions of power now and men there are theories that state you know men men compete they're they're competitive in nature and so they are losing so to speak these positions to women who in their eyes should be you know caretakers that's the way American culture was raised you know the women stay at home the men you know so it's demasculinating for a woman to be in a position of power and now they have to compete with that yeah well not only do they have to compete against it but if they have any mother issues I would imagine that brings up a whole other ball of some negativity definitely definitely of you need to be the best I mean that's the way that they train boys in defense you know you need to be the best you never you know you need to have a good job and take care of your your your woman and you need to provide for your family and when they are now in competition regardless of man or woman but when they're in that complete competitive state you know it's going to lead to things like eating disorders it's going to make them sick yeah and not only that but it's cultural differences also you know in in cultures that are used to having right women at home you know and that's starting to change over the last couple of generations especially since the 60s and I've I've heard it from some conservative males too are in their 50s are like going yeah let's blame this on the bra burners from the 60s and the women's lib movement and then there's a whole you know I'm like going women are going to be the best and I'm like yeah women's lib yeah okay now that's I mean it had its voice for a while but then it kind of morphed and and changed and you know it's just I just thought that that was an interesting theory yeah definitely definitely but I think I think there's a few men at least in their their 50s and 60s that probably believe that I mean they were the ones that were the first generation to see this change of women getting out of the house and working at least part-time and not taking care of all their needs like they used to and again they're lost what am I supposed to do what's my role in all of this yes yeah because it's a switch and roll and it's like what do I do now what do I do where's my role this is what I was raised to be my role and now that's taken away from me so who am I and now it's an existential sort of crisis of like who am I in this world what do I mean um how am I going to provide when you know or what else do I need to do to compensate for not providing because my you know female partner or whatever is now providing so what do I have to do to up it yeah and especially over the last five years because economically women are cheaper to hire period that's what has happened and you've heard so many stories now of stay-at-home dads and they're unemployed for a while and yeah the world is changing and I think that's what's happening and I think that's what's happening and I think that's what's happening and I think that's what's happening and the women's out and the women's out and they're working and he's just such incredible role reversal yeah um I'm so glad that they actually came up with um you know paternity leave you know where men can now get paid for um going home and taking care of the child the newborn um as a paternity leave just like a maternity leave so that's sort of helping us to push us in that way of okay you can have another role Hi, we have a caller. Hi. Hi, how are you? Good. How are you doing? What is your name? Axel. My name is Steve. Hi, Steve. How are you doing? Excellent. I have a quick question. It sounds to me like you're talking about emotional communication within men. How do we start or help men emotionally communicate better? What's the starting point? I like that question because I think that's where we need to sort of, as therapists, for us, we need to start getting out there and doing trainings and doing sessions like this to help people. And so my best thing would to say, you know, those feelings to start practicing maybe via writing or journaling, which is also considered a feminine thing. But to start practicing. To start practicing how to sort of label the emotion with what you are feeling and talking to other men and sort of maybe forming a group for men that is led by men of saying, let's talk about our feelings. Let's talk about what's going on for us. Let's talk about our issues and sort of going about it that way. You know, any man can start a support group. They don't need any sort of type of education or anything. Like that. So to do that would be amazing because now you're going to put it out there and society is going to start seeing that we're doing these things. We're having these meetings. We're addressing these issues. And it's going to become hopefully eventually a norm. I think for me, what helped me really was looking at vulnerability as more so as a strength rather than a weakness. Yes. And I think that there's a negative connotation in society about it being a weakness. Yes. And when I've had men in therapy begin to cry and they're like, I don't want to go there now. I don't want to go there because I'm going to, you know, things are going to happen that I don't want. And I'm like, what does that look like to you? And they'll say, I'm going to cry. And I'm like, you know what? What does that mean? And they say, it means I'm weak. And I say, it means you're strong. That's wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly what you're saying. Wonderful. Well, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you for calling. Thank you, Steve. So that's a wonderful point that Steve brought up about the vulnerability. It's just being able to get comfortable in your own skin with feeling. And for some people that can be really scary because they've been taught to suppress most of their lives. And to just... And to just be able to have room in yourself, to do some deep breathing, to just allow that feeling to surface and to ask, what is this trying to teach me? Maybe that is, you know, one of the ways to start the conversation within yourself. What is this trying to tell me? What do I need to listen to? You know, do I need to wake up a little bit more? Do I need to slow down a little bit? Where do I need to go with this feeling and not feeling scared that is going to overwhelm you? You know, it's funny because when we were talking about the vulnerability and being comfortable in one skin, I think of men who wear the color pink. I absolutely love that. I think very handsome. It's very attractive. And so I recently had an individual in one of my classes have a pink cast on. And I looked at him and I was like, that is awesome. And he was a big, big guy, you know, very masculine guy, beard, you know, just a hardcore guy. And there he has a pink cast. And I'm like, you're awesome. And so I would tease him, you know, and I was like, you know why I tease you? It's because you are comfortable in your skin. And he was like, I don't care. And I'm like, you know what? I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. And, and that's the thing. It's about being, it's really the underlying issue is who are you? You know, not who has, you know, society made you. It's who are you at the core? And when you're confident with that, you can, you can sort of explode these and get rid of these gender stereotypes and move on. And, and that's the thing. Many, many, many men have self-esteem issues and that's the underlying theme of many of these things. And so they can't, they don't have anybody to talk to because I can't talk about it. Right. And they shut down. I mean, one of the things that I start with, I, I do a lot of children's therapy and a lot of boys. Most of the teacher's referrals are from boys. So I'm like, okay, just give it one word. Start with one word. What are you feeling right now? Yes. That's all because just to get them started on that path. With one word can be so empowering. And I, I would recommend that for even adult men, just start with one word. What are you feeling right now at this very moment? And if it's just one word and you stop right there, Hey, it's just the one word it's out, but you started that ball rolling. Yeah. And if men can, you know, look up and even people like women who can't express emotion, cause there are women out there that have that difficulty as well. But for me, I think it's important to start with one word. And I think it's important for anybody to go online and look up, you know, emotion charts and they'll show like little cartoon faces and I'll say angry and sad and mad and sort of, this is what I always did with the boys. Cause I loved working with male youth. Um, and so I would say, all right, tell me a time you felt this way. Tell me a time. And it shows the face to show what emotion goes with what facial expression so that they can sort of name it now. And, and go on there and write about it. And, you know, if you have to sit in your office or sit in your car and do something like that and throw it away, you know, because of the possible shame factor of somebody finding that, you know, do it, but start getting in touch with some of those emotions, start figuring out ways that you can, um, get rid of those emotions, you know, some of, and, and, you know, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Sort of discharge. A lot of that emotional, especially the negative energy that's bottled up there before it ends up in, you know, aggressive acts or fights or whatnot, like get it out. Right. Because it does need to express itself and being able to tap into it through expression of the feelings, whether through writing or saying one word or just getting into that does. And it does need to express, it gets out that discharge because some, some of the emotions are really powerful. I mean, there's a lot of intense things that are happening right now on our planet, you know, and it's just, you know, why add to that, you know, that, that negativity and the, the, the violence that's happening right now, just being able to say, it's okay, I'm feeling really intense right now and I need to go get rid of it in a healthy way, whether it's through. It's through exercise or writing or talking to somebody or just letting it go. That's so important. Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the cool, the best gym I've ever been to is one I go to now. One of them is UFC gym, ultimate fighter. If you've ever seen MMA, you know, UFC gym, it's in the LA area. They have others out around that used to be LA boxing, but the core ones in LA, they're in the LA area. There's four or five of them. They're really good. I remember signing up with them several years ago. I think it was four years ago. And one of the things that they, they said to me is, I want you to be aware that this isn't a place to sort of show off or to, you know, we, we do turn memberships away for those men who come in here and it's like, they want to fight just to be jerks and, and they'll actually do, you know, they'll in their personal training. They will assess sort of emotional issues or what's going on with you today or how are, how is your emotional level? And it's awesome because you wouldn't think that, but they really do a great job. At least I know for sure. My trainer, Andy Aguilar, he's amazing. He will go into that with everybody he works with and sort of how is your emotional and some of the things that you are experiencing with, you know, for men. And women, he does both. Express itself in your self-care habits and sticking to sort of the gym and, and, and workout and, and goals and stuff like that. So that's an amazing, you know, if you're in the LA area, amazing place to sort of work out and know that you have that ability to emotionally express because they're like a family there. That's really smart. We have another caller. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hi. What is your name? Heather. Hi, Heather. Hi, Julie. Hi. What would you like to ask Dr. DeFale? I was interested in the comments that you made earlier about emasculation and wondering if you see a connection between the rates of marriage and emasculation that men feel. Could you repeat that? Because I lost you with the something before. What is the difference between the rates of marriage and the rates of marriage? So earlier you were talking about men feeling emasculated and the different roles that have broken from tradition. Yes. And I'm wondering if you think that contributes to the lack of marriage that is taking place. Like do you think men are not getting married as often because of this feeling of being emasculated? That's a really... That... I like where you're going with that. Because I think... I think Julie and I had a little conversation prior to this talking about the whole divorce rate and sort of can men and women communicate if they were able to discuss their feelings openly, if they were able to have those tools to be able to sort of communicate, then maybe the divorce rate would go down. And so because they have these high expectations and when they don't feel that they're being met, they may not... They may leave because I don't... I would rather leave than for somebody to see me vulnerable. And I think that plays into it. As far as prior to marriage, I don't know. I think that would be something for research to look at. And it's a good research question of does this now prevent from marriage because of that high expectation? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that we definitely need to do out there. There's a lot we need to do. If you go in your local area, Heather, and you look up men's mental health, you're not going to see a lot. I found stuff in Canada. I found stuff online, but nothing to where specifically in your area you can go. So I think that there's a large area of research that is lacking and that is with these issues. Thank you. Can I ask one more question? Of course. Of course. So along the same lines, on the other side with females and taking on more non-traditional roles, do you think that this has changed the landscape of sexual relations between men and women? Definitely. Definitely. I think as men sort to... Well, men often... When they start experiencing some of the... I think it's a good question. When they start experiencing some of these symptoms, such as maybe lower sex drive, they tend to withdraw into a place of like, don't talk to me, don't listen to me, like a rejection so that then you cannot get to them and say, all right, what's going on with you? It's just, they're putting up this wall. And I think that's where you're going to see a lot of that. Okay. Does that answer your question? Yes. I think that... I mean, this is, I think a really interesting topic. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you, Heather. So as we're starting to wrap up, Dr. DeFeo, what resources do men have if they want to start changing their lives and getting healthier so that the negative emotions don't start to come back? Yeah. Yeah. And start eating up their lives. I think definitely the first step is mantherapy.org, definitely, because there's so many resources out there. I know I've been in contact with them and I'm partnering to get this out in California. I mean, it's across anywhere, anybody can go to the website. I think some of the resources that they do show are in their local area. there's so much information on that website and it's fun. And I think it really sets the tone to help men realize that it can all be okay. It's just you got to start from square one and you will get there. And we're here to support you. And again, they have that 24-hour hotline. And to find therapists in their community and to call and say, hey, I have some issues and to see how they feel doing a consult over the phone. If you feel that you would prefer to talk to a woman, then look for a female therapist. If you would prefer to look for a man, then find a man therapist. And to really look at it's okay. It's okay to get help. It's okay to express your emotions. It's okay to do that. But being a man. Being a woman is being strong and being strong is being able to show your emotions. Exactly. And just allowing yourself to be human and not labeling what you're feeling as being bad or wrong. But it just is. Yeah. And allowing it to surface and have air and let it teach you. Let it teach you what do I need to be listening to? What do I need to start changing in my life? Because change is always happening. And you sometimes you just have to go with it. Sometimes kicking and screaming, but it happens. And it's good thing. It's, you know, it adds some love and some real depth to your life to just allow things to happen and allow the feelings to come out and emotions to happen. Yeah. And I'm going to say to guys, you know, man up, man up and go to therapy. Man up. And express those emotions because when they say man up, you know, that's what I'm thinking of now is, is the ability to be vulnerable and say, you know what? I have needs too. And this is what I want. And this is what I need. And, and, and get that help because, you know, you need it. And we love our men. So. Yes, we do. They are definitely interesting. I grew up in a household. I grew up in a household of men and I can attest to that one. I only hung out with boys. And now as a, as a woman, I like to hang out with the men because there's less drama. That's true. I completely agree with that. That's why I like being in bands and seeing one of the few females in the band because I can understand them. And I just, they're just so much fun to hang out with. So, yeah. And so again, men just go out there and fight for your right to be healthy. Fight for your right to, to just say, you know, like Dr. DeFeo said, hey, I've got needs and wants too. And, and it's all right for them to be expressed and go for it. I would like to tell the listeners that this show is also on Facebook and on iTunes at Psych One-on-One. That's P-S-Y-C-H, the number one, O-N and another number one. And we're also on Facebook. We're also on Stitcher. There's a lot of ways to get in and listen to the archive shows. This will be archived tomorrow. I've got about 30 shows in the can right now. So we've got everything from men's mental health to what's happening with, with the current news issues and everything psychologically you can think of. And if you would like to contact me, my business number is 562. 234-4650. Again, that's 562-234-4650. My email is jgoode8 at verizon.net. Please contact me. I would love to hear from you about future episodes and any ideas you have about where you would like to have some information and any kind of comments. I would really love to hear from you. And Dr. DeFeo, how can listeners contact you? You can get... Or contact me on my website, which is Jennifer DeFeo. So it's Jennifer, two N's, J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R, DeFeo, D as in David, E, F as in Frank, E, O as in Oscar, phd.com. If you want to, if you're in the California area, I'll be doing multiple trainings, including men's mental health in the future. So again, you know, just check out my website. It's kept current. JenniferDeFeoPhD.com. And thank you so much, Dr. DeFeo, for being my guest again. Love having you on. Thank you. You're a lot of fun and very informative. So we'd love to have you on again. And I'm sure there's a lot of other people that would like to have you as a guest too for, you know, for future broadcasts. Sure. Anytime. You're full of information and fun. Thank you. Thank you. So thank you so much for tuning in to Psych One-on-One. And the Qumran Report is on next. And take care of yourself. Take care of each other. This is Julianne Good for Psych One-on-One. Join us every Monday from 7 to 8 Pacific Standard Time. We'd love to have you on board. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. We'll see you next time.