Veterans, torture, and music with Michael Needham, Leonard Manzelli, Victor Allen

You Mother, mother There's too many of you crying Brother, brother, brother There's far too many of you dying You know we've got to find a way To bring some loving here today Yeah Yeah Father, father We don't need to escalate You see, war is not the answer For only love can help hate You know we've got to find a way To bring some loving here today Yeah Picket lines Yeah And picket signs Don't punish me With brutality Talk to me So you can see Oh, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? Yeah, what's going on? What's going on? Oh, what's going on? What's going on? Oh, what's going on? Right on, baby Right on Right on Let's just sing it Oh, what's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah What's going on? What's the name? Woo! Right on What's going on by Marvin Gaye? Welcome to the Qumran Report. May the peace and blessings of the life-giving creative spirit be upon you and upon your family. My name is Melvin Ishmael Johnson. This week we will be talking about Reckoning with Torture, an interview with Michael Nance, who works with the Veterans Project helping veterans find employment, and Leonard Manzelli, psychotherapist and clinical social worker and playwright, also an in-studio interview and performance by the singer-musician Victor Allen. But first we have with us on the line Michael Needham. He's performing in Reckoning with Torture this Saturday, December the 10th, 2011, at 7 o'clock at the United University Church on the campus of USC. This is in celebration of International Human Rights Day. How are you doing, Michael? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on the show. Oh, so glad to have you on the show, Michael. Now, Michael, before we get into the discussion, I would like to play a clip from the Homeless Veteran Forum held October the 23rd, 2011 at the Exchange, which is a place where veterans can get to know each other. And the Exchange, which is a place where veterans can get to know each other. It's located at 114 West 5th Street, downtown Los Angeles. And then we'll come back to you for a discussion. Sure. Thank you. I thank everybody for coming today and allowing me to speak. I have quite a personal message, but first thing I'd like to say is the rhetoric hit it on the head. We've got to stop wars. First thing, this is how we stop this problem. The U.S. government, Pentagon, they can account logistically for every bullet, every piece of hardware, every piece of hardware that chooses a war, but they can't have the facilities for the soldiers when they come home. And we don't go to war anymore, I hope, ever. But if we ever do, let's have them ready for the soldiers when they come home. That's right. That's what we need to understand. Just briefly, as Jeff mentioned, there will be a CBS $48, one hour documentary on my son. I'm going to give you a real quick one out on that, but I'd rather speak about other things like the homelessness, the jobs and things for the vets. I'm a fifth generation Army combat. My son was fifth generation, actually I'm fourth. My son was fifth generation Army infantry. I was in Vietnam. I'm 57 years old. My brother had PTSD. He was also infantry and died very young. We didn't understand it. It wasn't called PTSD. They were just called crazy non-vets at that point. My brother-in-law, an ABC on one of the gunboats, is dying right now from angina orange. He didn't know my brother, and my brother-in-law did three tours. We're still feeling the fest from the 1960s right now. In the case of my son, what had happened was, when I got out of the military, I started working in the military aerospace complex in Orange County. I worked for United Technologies and made weapons systems for the military. I'm going to apologize to everybody for that. At this point in time, I stopped doing it in 1995 because my conscience wouldn't allow me to do it anymore. I have some dubious distinctions. I'd like to leave as a key designer on ICBM weapons systems and targeting platforms. I went into the commercial industry, wireless broadband. That's what I do now. I'm the president and chief operating officer of a wireless company in Orange County. My son, John, decided, John had grown up as a very fearless and very, I have five children, John was my little son, and all of them grew up the same way. The one thing I taught them was to be fearless. To me, that was important in life. I had one thing that they needed to do was conquer fear. If you can conquer fear, you can do anything. What they need to hold you back is fear. So that's the way they were brought up. John was actually a pro-surfer. He grew up in my San Clemente home on the beach in San Clemente. And in 2006, when the Iraq war was in question, the civil war was rampant, he decided that it was his turn for his generation to go into the Army. We all tried to talk him out of it. I mean, he paid me my respects by taking six months to finally do it. But we spoke about it, we spoke about it. He just wanted to go. There's many negative reasons why he was in force to do that, but I don't want to talk about that today. It's, you know, the war was very, very glorified. And a lot of young kids went in there because they saw it almost like a video game. You know, hey, you're going to come back, okay. But what anybody that's been to war will tell you is you never want to do it again. There's things that happen that you cannot explain to anybody unless they are involved in that war, unless they see their buddies die, unless they themselves get wounded, or they see other friends killed. And this is just one of the things that we have to do. And this is just horrific. And once again, they can plan for everything, but they can't plan for the collateral damage that happens to the soldiers when they come home. Recently, the military has actually released that 40% of all current members of the military, all four branches, are in some way, shape, or form affected by PTSD. PTSD and TBI, traumatic brain injury, are the number two causes for the mental illness that is going on. It can spin off into bipolar, it can spin off into drugs, it spins off into alcoholism, and it's just a terrible, terrible down spiral. In 2007, when my son went to Iraq, it was the surge. They were taking anybody they could. John was classically trained. He went to ranger school. He was an Army ranger. And they were taking cooks, women, administrative assistants, and putting them on the front lines in Iraq, and they did not have the training. And they were slaughtered like lambs. And the high amount of the kills were for the ones that were not trained properly. And they were forced. And quite frankly, quite a few of them either tried to die or found a way to die, because they couldn't. And when you see the special, and you go to veteransproject.com, I won't put you out quite a bit, there's other information there. But once you see this story, you'll see why I'm speaking like I am. We're talking about how do we stop this? How do we treat? How do we do things? In 2007, 2008, there were no programs. If I had a new directions for my son, or if I had a mental illness help for my son, we would have had a terrible situation. We had a curve. John is dead now. He died from his wounds. He had two surgeries. He had two surgeries in LA. And they were watched. And they made it worse. Basically what happened, John turned in his unit for war atrocities. And that will be shown on CBS and collaborated by other soldiers. So his consciousness would not allow him to continue to fight and creating and burying people. I mean, he was there for a righteous cause. And they were there. And quite frankly, the unit itself was a PTSD TBI. These guys had already been there twice. And those of them were messed up anyway. So long story short with that is that once we got this, it was a long harrowing story. He came out of the military. He had made the military aware of the atrocities. A letter, photographs, they hid it. There's been a number of other national news media that were going to print or show air other programs over the last three years that were stopped at the last minute. Very recently, a giant article magazine should have been out last month. And it was stopped at the last second. I'm assured by CBS that this one will air. So please tell people to watch it the 12th of November. Now, what I want to close with is that when you're dealing with someone, and I had to learn, I'm an electrical engineer, that's my background. But I had to learn how to deal with an illness that I never really had to deal with like I dealt with. My brother was a different story. He lived on his own. But I had to take care of my son. And he was severely, he was 90% disabled, 40% physical from splintered spine, vertebrae, which was the reason for his surgery. He also had traumatic brain injury and a severe case of PTSD. And when he came home, we had no idea how to deal with it. Honestly, we didn't know. We were just trying to keep him out of jail. We were trying to keep him from hurting himself or someone else. And the story will be told, so watch that, please. I've worked with a quite a few groups, and there's some really good things going on in San Diego. San Diego is very progressive, and they're holding a lot of very pro-veteran events, and sponsored by corporate entities. What I want to do is I want to bring that angle to LA. I want to bring corporate sponsors. I want to start a show of cash. I want to see the vets get off the street. I want to see the VA get their property back. I want everybody to start having respect for these people. They're not just men. They're women, multi-faith, multi-covered. Okay, so we're all in it together. Thank you very much. Thank you, Michael. Okay, we're back with Michael Needham on the line. Michael, could you tell us what you've learned from your experience with your son, John, that can be used by other military veterans who find themselves in the same situation? Sure. John's case was a little bit extreme because of the fact it's so high-profile, dealing with war atrocities being reported. The majority of the soldiers and Marines that are coming back from combat don't really have a high profile, and they're actually, you know, they're actually more at risk than John was because we were able to get resources. The problem was the resources back then were not useful. They didn't know how to treat what was going on at that time. We have the Iraqi soldiers, Marines, and service people coming back, I guess, now in this timeframe, in this quarter, and then Afghanistan next year. I believe the number is somewhere near 150,000, 160,000 we may have back in the next year or so. So the first thing I'll bring up is that I can conceive that there's going to be an overwhelming number of need versus ability. The VA is in no way, shape, or form able to handle numbers like that. They have some real problems basically dealing with it, and we can talk about that. And we can talk about that in a little while. So the first thing I can say is family members and or relatives or friends, you're going to have to be the ones that are looking for the signs. You're going to have to look to see, you know, how bad they did. They're all going to come back with, you know, the war. I mean, even if they're not in combat, even if they're behind the lines or on a ship, they still have a lot of stress. They still have, you know, the threat of death on a daily basis. But those that are in combat, actual combat, are the ones that's the highest risk. So anybody that's infantry, recon, special forces, you know, that's a ringer right there. You've got to look out for that. Number two, there's many, many signs. And I can send you to different websites or publications, but you're going to be looking for a very, very hyper-village type of person. They're going to be uneasy. They're going to have problems with loud noises. They're going to, for example, when I picked up John in Colorado Springs after he was taken out of Walter Reed, I was driving from the airport, and John just about completely left out because I was going over 35 miles an hour. And he hadn't gone that fast. They were in Humvees, and there were roadside trash and things, and he was just about ready to come out of his skin. We went to a restaurant in Colorado Springs, sat down in a window, sat down and a waiter dropped an entire plate of dishes and silverware. And John was not only out of his seat, but he was in a corner looking for an exit. At the time, we knew where he was. So you're going to see them being hyper-villageant. The worst case scenarios are this. They're going to have a hard time integrating back into society. You're going to see that right away. You're going to see them possibly... Go ahead. So the family play a very important part in helping the veterans adjust back to the community. Well, that's really the only, only way you're going to be able to help them. The military, when they come back on their air lights, and it's a little bit different now because of a lot of the problems that happened between 07 and 2010, you know, they would come back. I mean, actually, John's unit, when they returned to Colorado Springs at the end of their deployment, they flew out of... They flew out of... Kuwait that morning in the same uniforms that they were fighting in, and they still had blood on their clothes when they landed in Colorado Springs. Wow. They're taken into an auditorium. Crazy. And they get, you know, the rah-rah from the command, and then they're released to their families. But right before that, they'll say, if anybody has any problems, raise your hand. Well, first of all... No debrief. Yeah. First of all, it will be a career-limiting move to tell anybody you have any kind of problems. Number one. Number two, nobody wants to do that in front of their families and friends. Number three, if they were found to have a problem and told them about it, they probably wouldn't get any leave or see their families whatsoever after, in the case of my son and their unit, 15 months. Mm-hmm. The families are the front line. Mm-hmm. And let me ask you this, because we're looking forward to... I know you're on the panel this coming Saturday for the reading for the... Yeah. Yeah. The performance of Reckoning with Torture. You're also part of the performance, but you're on the panel, and we're really looking forward to hearing you. But could you also tell us about the letter that you will be reading at the performance on Saturday, which is December the 10th, 2011, at the United University Church on the campus of USC? Can you tell us a little about that? Sure. Shortly after John came back from Iraq, which was in November, of 2007, and we had a chance to actually talk to him without, you know, eavesdropping or fear of retribution for talking openly, he told me and his advocate, Andrew Pagani, that he had witnessed, you know, war atrocities, murders by the... Now, the 212 out of color... out of Fort Carson was the direct descendant of the 508th Airborne Band of Brothers, which everybody saw on HBO. So this historic unit that would leave no soldier behind in Iraq became street thugs, murderers, rapers, and strong-arm robbery. We sent a letter that was signed by John. Andrew and I crafted it. John read it, agreed with it. And with the letter, we sent four photographs that showed what we felt was unspeakable truth of war atrocities. In that letter, which was sent to Major General Stanley Green, Lieutenant General Mark Graham, the IG of the Army, CID, basically, on dates, times, we identified the atrocities, who committed them, and how they were committed. The final on that thing was, is they never came back to us to tell us anything. We did hear through the channels or the Deep Throat, because they don't talk to you directly. Everything comes to you in a roundabout way. And they basically said, no, there was no atrocities. One of the biggest, in fact, on the CBS special on 48 Hours, John Needham's part, which can be viewed online, it showed a picture of their first sergeant holding the brains of an Iraq hand that was thrown on the hood of M-V after he was shot in the head. After he was shot in the head while standing in a marketplace. And he was pulling them out like a trophy and holding them up to everybody. He ordered the picture to be taken by my son, John. John took the picture. John was there. And there's also collaboration of other soldiers that saw what happened. The Army dismissed this. They said the soldiers said that they ran out of body bags, and they threw them on the front hood. Now, after they'd thrown the hood, and they posed for the trophy, a photograph of the brains in his hands, they then went up and down the neighborhoods while an Iraqi interpreter on the loudspeaker shouted out threats to the neighborhood, which are called mullahs there, and to the citizens not to interfere or to cooperate with the U.S. forces, or that would be their demise. Okay, Bill. Yeah, and let me just mention one thing. Go ahead. There were four Humvees there. There were four Humvees there. There was a first sergeant, the high-ranking man in the company. He reports directly to the military. He reports directly to the company commander and usually, you know, dotted line to the battalion commander. And he didn't have a good enough judgment to go to another Humvee and get a body bag or to call for another Humvee, which are only miles away. They said they put it on the hood to get them back to the forward operating base, the FOB. And, you know, it's just so childish and so juvenile, that kind of... They don't lash it in the face, you know, as ignorance. Mm-hmm. They knew what happened. They knew what happened. Oh, yeah. They didn't recognize it. So, Michael, we're really looking forward to hearing you over there Saturday. Just a couple more. I'd like to get a comment before we close out on this section, because you mentioned... I keep thinking about what you said at the vets forum about how important it is to stop and eliminate war. And I wanted to get some of your feedback on what do you think it would take to move human beings away from this concept of war, especially in this high-tech society that we live in? You know, I think it's interesting because, you know, we all... We all have been coerced into believing that there's a threat. And I'm not saying there's not a threat, but the threat that we really see, right, at this point in time, is the continuation of invasions of... of sovereign nations. I mean, we've had Libya happen after that. Syria's going crazy. Iran is in the paper daily with Israel. I mean, there is no stability. So the argument that our approach globally on terrorism or on terrorist states is not founding out. I mean, there's nothing here. Iraq was not a success in any way, shape, or form. In fact, Iraq wants us out because of the war atrocities we were committing. They will not allow our soldiers to have judicial immunity for any action. And that means that we're going to pull out because we can't guarantee that it won't happen. And certainly we don't want Marines or soldiers being held on trial for murder in Iraq when we're there to be their saviors, per se. So there's really no strong argument to say that our practices since 9-11 have been useful or even successful. But here's the biggest thing. I believe there's a large contingency of Americans that do believe that we can get away from warlike tendencies. The biggest problem is the economics of it. The economics of the military-aerosmith complex, developing weapons, selling weapons. I mean, it's just not making weapons for our military. We're making weapons for NATO, for Israel. We're shipping F-15s, high-tech weapons, for the military. And it's a high-tech weaponry on a daily basis. A lot of people don't realize that in the Middle East right now, the Saudis and other middle-of-the-road type Arabic societies are arming right now because they're afraid of their less-than brothers in the Arabic world turning on them. So we're in no better shape than we were at 9-11. And certainly there's a way to make peace profitable. We have to dismantle the military-aerospace complex. We have plenty of weapons. We have plenty of capability to protect our shores. So it was what former President Eisenhower was warning us about, the military-industrial complex. Yeah, on his closing speech. If nobody's seen that, they need to watch that. There was a warning by President Eisenhower in 1954 when he left office, warning us of what has happened not only now but in Vietnam and the whole thing. And it's just insane. I mean, it's insane. We have taken such an impact just by Iraq, Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, in the lives and the wounded. I mean, they talk about wounds. That's usually someone that's lost a limb or, you know, seriously burned. They don't count the traumatic brain injury. A lot of the injuries were done primarily by IEDs. Mm-hmm. IEDs were... Half of them were done by wireless cell phone detonation. But they wouldn't take down the cell phone towers in Iraq. Mm. And if I'm the commander of forces in Iraq, the first thing I'm going to do is take down any method that kills my soldiers. That's right. Okay, Michael, hey, thank you very much for taking this time. And we're looking forward to seeing you over there Saturday for both the performance and the panel discussion. Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing everybody. Thank you. Thank you very much. And have a good evening. You too. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Okay, now, at this time, I'd like to turn it over to Ms. Earlene Antony for our Community Calendar. This is the Community Calendar for December. Saturday, December the 10th at 7 p.m. in recognition of International Human Rights Day, which is December the 10th. Yeah, man, do we have the time? I see you, JP. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. I'll let you do that. there will be a forum of professional panelists and an in-depth Q&A discussion. This is a free event. Donations are accepted and all are welcome to attend. The location of this event is United University Church on the campus of USC, 817 West 34th Street at the corner of Hoover and Jefferson. For more information, 213-748-1643. Sunday, December 18th at 2 p.m., Drama Stage Coombran presents a holiday show featuring gospel and holiday music. There will be clothing giveaway and passing out of hygiene items to the residents of the community. This is a free event. The location is The Exchange, 114 West 5th Street. For more information, 323-850-4436. Friday, December 30th at 7 p.m. This is a special event. Lakeland Production and Drama Stage Coombran presents a retrospective and website launching celebration for a poet and dramatic annunciator. This is a collection of years of work for Dr. Mungo. We're asking all of the poets that know Dr. Mungo to come out and celebrate in this event. The location will be Fernando's Hideaway Cafe, 519 South Spring Street. For more information, contact 213-784-1703. This is just a reminder. If you have a community event that you would like announced on our show, send the information to And once again, our call-in number for the show is 800-780-7803. 893-9562. Now, back to our host. Thank you, Ms. Earlene Anthony. We have with us on the line another performer and participant in Saturday's performance of Reckoning with Torture, Leonard Manzelli. He's a psychotherapist and a clinical social worker for the past 30 years. He's also a professor at the University of Minnesota. He's also a professor at the University of Minnesota. He's also a professor at the University of Minnesota. He's also a professor at the University of Minnesota. He's also worked in the prison system. Leonard is a playwright with the Robey Theater Company's Advanced Playwriting Program and has written a play called Cages that is coming to the Stella Allen Theater in March, directed by John Lawrence Rivera. How you doing, Leonard? I'm good. How are you? Oh, just fine. Now, Leonard, let's talk about your participation in the performance of Reckoning with Torture coming up Saturday, December 10, 2011. 7 o'clock at the United University Church, located on the campus of USC. I think you'll be reading the part of former President George Bush, and you will also be on the panel of discussion, Torture. Tell us a little about it. Well, I guess we're going to be talking about torture. Obviously, this is something that's come to the surface here as of late. It's in the news a lot. There's some really interesting things going around the net about one of the bills that is trying to be passed into Congress right now. I don't know if you've been reading about it, but they were trying to pass a bill. They actually tagged it onto another defense bill in which they could basically pick up anybody in the world, including Americans, and hold them without any due process. And torture them if need be. Strangely enough, Rand Paul voted against it. Actually, what he wanted to do is he wanted to exempt Americans from the torture. And the Congress voted him down. So I couldn't believe it when I heard what's going on. But anyway, torture is, we're going to be talking about torture. And I think, you know, before we start to discuss, you know, maybe we'll have a discussion about torture. Maybe we should try to define what we mean, because it's a word that's kind of thrown around a lot. Mm-hmm. Can you define it for us? So think about what torture really is. If you look into Webster's Dictionary, Wikipedia, any of the others, it's really, it's an act of inflicting severe pain. I mean, either psychological and or physical. And it's used as a means to put people in a position of pain. And it's used as a means to put people in a position of pain. To punish, or to get revenge, or to force information, or a confession, or simply as an act of cruelty. Mm-hmm. I mean, throughout the years, I mean, throughout the ages, I think that it's been used as, in many countries, as a political re-education. To interrogate people, to punish them, to coerce them. It's very sadistic in nature. I mean, it's a lot of times, there's a lot of sadistic gratification on the part of the torturer. Now, interesting signatories of the Third and Fourth Geneva Convention, you know, they officially agreed that not to torture prisoners in our conflicts. Mm-hmm. It's an international agreement that was agreed upon. And it was ratified by 147 countries. It's basically torture is also, it's prohibited by the United Nations, convention against torture, which is, you know, been ratified by the countries. Well, let me ask you. But Amnesty International estimates that at least any one world government currently practices torture, some of them openly. So it's something that's going on. And, of course, it's a lot in our news because we've been union. Yes, we've been, definitely. And something else that is happening. That's in the news within the California penal system. They talk about the SHU, the Security Housing Unit. And that's what I want to ask you about, the SHU and the long-term solitary confinement. How is that related to torture? Do that fit into that definition that you just gave us about torture? Well, you know, I think that it certainly would. But, I mean, I think that... Just the idea that a society would build a SHU and that they would actually put up with building a SHU is kind of amazing to me. And when you think about it, what kind of a society would build and condone or would build and condone building of a SHU facility? And if anybody doesn't know what a SHU facility is, it's a facility that's incredibly automated. It's... Its men are basically locked in small cells for 23 hours a day, let out for an hour to shower or to look up at a ceiling. There may be a skylight. You get some kind of sunlight. And they go back into their cells for the next 23 hours. Certainly, it is a kind of torture because it's actually sensory deprivation. And, yeah, that's sensory deprivation. It's... It's a form of torture. When you think about it, though, a society that would allow that to happen is an interesting society because I think what it is is a tortured society. It's a society... By torture, I mean I'm talking about child abuse. If you look at what child abuse is, child abuse is torture. Domestic violence, in extreme cases, that I've worked with over the years because I've been working with... In the prisons, in county jails, juvenile halls, therapeutic communities, and dealt a lot with domestic violence and child abuse. And these are psychological and physical means of punishment, getting revenge, and just acts of cruelty. So we have a society that is really rampant with child abuse. You think that one in three girls will be abused sexually by the time she's 18. One in four boys. Those would be the stats. And we're not even talking about physical abuse. A society that has so much abuse, I think, can't actually let that happen. You can't build a shoe. And that's what I'm getting at. I think to have a torture, to have instruments to provide the torture, we have to have abuse within this society and torture going on. Now, let me ask you this. I want to get back in a minute to talking a little bit more about... the torture and the long-term isolation. But you're also part of the Robes Theatre Company Advanced Playwriting Program. You've written a play called Cages that's coming to the Stella Adler Theatre in March. And it's directed by the great director, John Lawrence Rivera. Can you tell us a little about that? About Cages, how you developed that, etc.? You know, Cages, I think I spoke with you on your show a few weeks ago. And Cages was really a story about... It's a play about the work I did in the California Department of Corrections. I was hired as a mental health professional at several prisons in the state of California. And I was working with the mentally ill population. Now, the mentally ill population is served by mental health professionals because the feds had mandated it, not because custody or the Department of Corrections wants us there. In fact, I think they would like us to be gone. But since the feds have mandated that it must happen, custody has to put up with us. And I'm brushing a broad stroke here, but my experience was that was kind of the situation. So when people are sent to prison, and let's back up a little bit, and remember that under Reagan, he closed many, many of the mental hospitals. And most of those people are... Not most, many, many, many of those people have been in a prison. I think that prisons are state mental hospitals today. They have a huge, huge mental ill population. So when the mentally ill go to prison, they have to be treated, and they hire people like me to treat them. Okay. And mentally ill patients in the prison system who get in trouble in prison and go to administration, administrative segregation, which is a nice, fancy word for the whole, which is basically prison inside a prison. When they are sent to the whole, or administrative segregation, and they're mentally ill, they are still mandated to have treatment. So what the California Department of Corrections did is they devised a way to treat them. And what they would do is they would put them in cages. So the first day I went down, I was told that I was going to be doing a group on Friday with... with these men in cages. And I heard about it and thought, wow, that's kind of weird. I thought this was for the United States. And, you know, this funny thing is going through my head. And anyway, when I walked into the room, when I saw the cages, my... I just took a... I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And there were seven men peering at me from behind this wire, this metal mesh, metal mesh that the cages were made of. And I began to do my job. I began to do my groups over a period of a year, a year and a half. And what I did is I discovered a humanity of stories and human experience that was really incredible. And I thought to myself, my God, if I could just get people to see through my eyes, it would give them such an insight into what goes on in the prison system that these people are. And again, I want to emphasize that cages is not a play about... you know, it's not a touchy-feely play about poor prisoners. Oh, too bad. But it's a play about people who are in prison. No. Some of these men have to be in prison. It's really not that. It's a story about the humanity that I discovered and what they taught me. And so I knew the story. I didn't write it for a long time because I was afraid that I might not do the story justice. But at a certain point, I said, the heck with it. I'm going to try this because I really didn't want what I had experienced to just die there. I wanted to share it with people. And cages is about sharing my experience. Well, we're looking forward to it. I know I'm looking forward to cages. We've seen some of the readings. It's a great play. Once again, coming up in March, it's a Stella Alda theater directed by John Lawrence Rivera. But let me ask you something, Leonard. Last week, we had Andy Griggs of ICUJP on the program. And I'm going to ask you, one of the questions that I asked him, it's related to the ticking bomb theory. And that is, there's a nuclear bomb getting ready to go off somewhere in the United States, and you have a suspect in custody. Do you torture that individual and try to get the information you need to try and stop the attack? Oh, you're asking for my opinion? Yeah, yes. Because that's what's in the, you know, that's what the previous administration and probably a little of this administration, you know, they always push this out about this ticking bomb. It's a nuclear weapon. This guy got some information. We got to get it, you know, the Geneva Convention and all of that. We got to get that information before it blow up the city. Do you torture this? Mm-hmm. You know, having been a mental health professional for years and dealing with people who have been tortured, I have, you know, I've come up against people in the California Department of Corrections who what they report to me has been torture by police, by, you know, law enforcement. But apart from that, I just don't think torture is productive. The moral issue, which I'm against it morally, I think it's immoral to begin with. Mm-hmm. But the fact is, I think it's immoral to begin with. Mm-hmm. The fact is, you don't get good information. There's a man who wrote a book. I saw him. I think I saw him on 60 Minutes or Frontline. He's an interrogator. He worked for our administration. He's a guy that was interrogating all the people in the Middle East after 9-11. He was getting incredible information. He was one of the few people we had in our government agency that was speaking English. He went there. He got incredible information by befriending these men. Mm-hmm. All of a sudden, he reports that, the State Department started sending over these other interrogators, and they started to put him aside, and they started their torture. And from all what we can see is that from that point on, the information was terrible. In fact, a lot of misinformation. So I do not think it works. I don't think that people, when you start to torture them, they'll tell you anything they think you want to hear. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's an effective way to answer your question. I wouldn't torture them. Because I don't think it would be the information to save anybody. Okay, Leonard. Hey, we're really looking forward to seeing you over there Saturday. If you get down with the portrayal of former President George Bush and to be on the panel discussion. So, Leonard, thank you very much, and we'll see you over there Saturday. Okay, look forward to it. Thank you. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Thank you, Leonard. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate being here. First, I want to talk to you a little about you and about your music. First, tell us where you're from, Victor. Originally, I was born in San Diego in the backseat of a cab. They were rushing me to the hospital. My mom broke her water in 1954. But yes, but I grew up in Oceanside. I went to school there. Some of my former friends, such as Chris Chambliss, Donkey Williams, Willie Banks, you know, just some of the people I grew up with. How did you get into playing music, especially the keyboard? Music originally, it was in my house or in our house. You know, blues was always present from B.B. King to Bobby Bland. And I originally was a drummer, vocalist. And people used to say, man, you got to find a way to get your voice out there. And at that time, you know, being a drummer, you know, it was like I had to find a way to put some melody into it. So that's how I got into the keyboard. Now, you also is a Vietnam veteran. Tell us a little about that, your military experience. Yes, I'm a former. Vietnam era veteran from the 82nd Airborne. I served during the years of 1970 through 1974. Basically, you know, without going into a lot of, you know, dramatics, it was the body bag detail. And now that I reflect back upon that, you know, being a father. and to kind of tailgate on the conversation we just had, veterans do have a long road ahead. You know, I went to school. I, you know, my bachelor's, you know, in architectural design. But like I said, it all coincides with what in this world is going on economically, you know, as well as ethnically, you know. Well, let me ask you this, Dan, because I've seen you performing a lot in the downtown Skid Row area. What's it like for an artist, especially a musician performing in the Skid Row area? It's a humbling experience because you have to drop your ego. You have to drop the ego and realize that each one of us are given a gift, but very few are really able to pull themselves up from the bootstraps if you will, and overcome that desolate place, you know, and having lived it. One more question, Dan. Why is it so hard? One thing I observed about the musicians in the downtown Skid Row area, there's an extreme amount of talent down here, very talented musicians. Why is it so hard to get the musicians to work together down here? In the Skid Row area instead of working against each other? I think a lot of it, again, it falls back upon the argument of the ego. Everyone wants to be this top of the line, look at me, look at me. But most don't want to really cooperate with each other for fear that they're equal. The ego will be taken away from them. Okay, and that's a couple things. Before we move into the ether section, which we're going to move next, I want to mention, you think something like a union or an association of musicians down in this area would help organize the talent down here? I think it would. You know, if it can get that basic foundation to say, look, place the ego at the door and let us come collectively as the persons, the entertainer that we are collectively. Okay, Victor, thank you. We'll be hearing you coming up in our voices from the ether section of our show coming up right now. All right. All right. All right. All right. If it's Monday night and about 15 minutes to nine, then you are listening to voices from the ether playing in the background. I'm not sure what that is, but that's okay. In our studio tonight, we have Mr. Victor Allen, who grew up in Oceanside, California. I lost my heart in Oceanside. California. Right now, we're supposed to be listening to Roger Carnes, a good friend of mine, but that's okay. Ah, there it is. There it is. Yes, Running Out of Time by Mr. Victor Allen. Can we turn that up a little bit? Okay. Everybody give a listen. This is for the census tonight. Mr. Victor Allen, just for you. Oh, no. This is for the census tonight. You might think I'm foolish when I say that I know my God's coming back one day. And I put it on everything I love. I wait for him until he comes to me. Just running out of time. We're just running out of time. Running out of time. It seems like we don't know what's made of time. And we like it more. Seems like we don't know what's made of time anymore. Yeah. Seems like we don't know what's made of time anymore. Yeah. You might think I'm foolish when I say that I know my God's coming back one day. That was Victor Allen playing Running Out of Time. And that's pretty much what we're doing tonight. We're running out of time. So, Mr. Allen, when I visit Facebook, I sometimes see that you go by a different moniker. And can you tell me a little bit about that Egyptian thing that you do? Oh, well, well, Vicar Leme, Vicar, if you look into the Webster, Vicar is the person who sits in place of the absence of the Supreme Being. So he's there to represent the Supreme Being. And of course, Alim being just the peacefulness that I hope I can express in my music, that others will search within themselves, you know, to find that. In one of our earlier conversations, you talked about the fact that you're a Christian. And I think that's a very important thing. You talked about a lot of the bands that you played with in your youth. Can you share some of that with us? Sure. I had the pleasures of performing with John Handy, Jimmy Smith, Eddie Harris, Earth, Wind & Fire. Larry Dunn is a very good friend of mine whom I met back in New York. God, who else? Oh. Mystic Merlin, a group again in New York. I did a lot of touring on the East Coast during the college circuit, you know, cooling the gang and some other people did the sports arena in San Diego, actually performing drums for Rolls Royce at that particular time. Some other good friends. Daryl Woolfolk, a very great drummer, incredible. He was a good friend of mine as well. Okay. Victor, as we wrap up here, where was the turn? I mean, you know, our meeting has come from a similar place, you know, either we're veterans. Yes. I think both of us spent some time being homeless. Yes, yes. In your career, in your time, what was it that, where was the turn that, you know, broke you away from the mainstream? What was the causes? I guess I have to really place it, you know, my mother raised me very well as well as my father. Yeah. You know, being, my father being a Mumford Point Marine, a drill sergeant, the determination that you can be someone. But when I hit skid row, it let me know that this is reality here. You can lose everything, you know, trying to be something in order to find yourself. And skid row was that point. Skid row was that place where I was able to redefine me. I had to hit that rock bottom to literally sleep on the sidewalks, to literally feel the cold rain, to humble myself in order to find me now. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You know, for me, today when I stand on a street corner, I'm not a street corner. I'm not a street corner, like say downtown Los Angeles in the business district. I have a hard time identifying with people in business suits and talking their jib jab, you know, and stuff. Yeah. But when I look at someone that's homeless, it's like, you know, where's that grocery cart? You know, I can so much more identify with that, you know, than that car, that new car, the new clothes. Well, that shopping cart becomes the God. Yeah. Yeah. Because your life is in that shopping cart. In that shopping cart. Everything. Exactly. Everything. Everything. You know? And one of my big experiences was like when I was working the window at the Los Angeles Mission, you know? Okay. People would come in, you know, with all their stuff on their backs and they'd be hunched over, and then they just drop that off and, you know, and we'd take care of it. And then they'd just walk away with such a relief of a sense of freedom, you know? Oh, yeah. Because it's all of the collectiveness that you picked up trying to save yourself. Exactly. You know, you've been trying to save yourself all that time, you know? Running out of time. Running out of time. Running out of time. Very good. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Allen. That was a relief. Thank you so much. That was such a relief tonight. And now I give it back over to our host, Melvin. Okay. Thank you, Ty. I would like to thank our in the studio guest, Victor Allen. And on the phone, Michael Neal. And Leonard Manzella. And a special thanks to Jeremy and the Skid Row Studios. You can check out our past shows of the Qumran Report on iTunes, Facebook, Twitter, or www.DramaStage-Qumran.org. Thank you for tuning into the Qumran Report and I'll leave you with the song that opened the show, What's Going On? by Marvin Gaye. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, what's up, man? Brother, what's up? Hey, how you doing? This is a big party, man. Yeah, brother, like a big solid. Right on. What's up? Hey, man, what's your name? What's your name? My name is Gary. My name is Gary. Woo! It's Gary Lane. It's Gary Lane. We're gonna get down to the game. My mother, there's too many of you to cry. Brother, brother, brother, there's far too many of you dying. You know we've got to find a way to bring some loving here today. Hey, hey, hey. Father, father, we don't need to escalate. You see, war is not the answer, for only love can conquer hate. You know we've got to find a way to bring some loving here today. Oh, picket lines and picket signs. Don't punish me with brutality. Talk to me so you can see. Oh, what's going on? What's going on? Yeah, what's going on? Oh, what's going on? What's going on? Right on, baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu, bidu. More than normal, everybody thinks we're at home. Oh, but who would think to judge us? And because our hair is long. Oh, you know that we've got to fight. Drink some understanding here today. Picket lines and picket signs. Don't punish me for brutality. Come on, talk to me so you can see. What's going on? Yeah, what's going on? Tell me what's going on. I'll tell you what's going on. What's going on? Whoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo. Right on, baby. Right on. What's happening? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah