Domestic violence discussion with Dr. Kennedy

Hello, this is Julianne Good, and this is Psych One-on-One. Good evening. How you doing? Welcome to Psych One-on-One. He has been a member of the Superior Court Panel of Experts since 1985, and his practice continues to serve courts within Los Angeles County. He is one of the early American Psychological Associates, Minority Fellows, and a founding member of APA's Society for the Psychological Study of Ethnic Minority Issues. Before beginning his teaching career, he worked for over 20 years as a substance abuse specialist at the UCLA Student Psychological Center. He has worked with the South Central Training Consortium as a supervisor and training director since 1993. In addition, Dr. Kennedy works with various civic and religious groups within the greater Los Angeles community. Practice interests include substance abuse, AIDS prevention and treatment, cross-cultural relations, and other stress, mental health, and forensic psychology-related issues. Welcome, Dr. Kennedy. Hello. How are you this evening? I'm doing just great. I'm glad to be here. Wonderful. We're glad to have you here. The first question I'd like to ask you is, how do you define domestic violence? You know, I use the Department of Justice definition, and that is that it's a pattern of abusive behavior within any relationship that's used by one partner to gain, as a result, the right to the right of the other party. And so, the emphasis here is on power and control. It can be physical, it can be sexual, it can be emotional or economic, but the power and control is the bottom line. So, how is domestic violence different from child abuse? You know, of course, they're very correlated, and that's how the courts look at them. And that's because the court is very clear that domestic violence is very hard for you to gain custody of your children. And that's because the research has shown that individuals who are capable of domestic violence really do not put the child's welfare as a high priority. And so, therefore, those individuals are capable of exhibiting violence throughout the family, whether it's the children or the children of the family. So, that's a very good question. Right. And if it's not directly at the children, then they're seeing incidents of domestic violence between partners, correct? How right you are. But, you know, you made that emphasis on speaking. And, you know, I think I want your listeners to also pay attention to perhaps how destructive it is for a child to be awakened at night, hearing their parents. I think you have potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential potential hear loud arguing between their parents, whether it's physical or not. So your listeners really want to pay attention to the fact that emotional abuse, heightened voices, yelling at each other, name calling, all of that is very destructive for a developing child. Right. And then sometimes they develop what's called a startle response, which is they are hyper alert to any kind of yelling or dropping of things or throwing because they're scared. Yeah. Yes. And that is the beginning of our fight or fight response, the stress, so-called stress response, the beginning of trauma in this developing child's life. So as we all know, trauma is very destructive. Violence in any form in the community is very destructive, but it's even worse when it's at home because there's no escape. Right. And home should be a safe place to be. You got it. Yeah. Now, the kind of the birthing of someone who ends up becoming a domestic violence perpetrator, is a lot of times they witness domestic violence at home when they're children. If it's not done to them, then they see it and it kind of lodges into their brain. Is that right? You know, yes, it is. Because, you know, think about it. For you to witness your loving parents occasionally violent, then it gets filed away in your memory as something, that is family or familiar to you. So for many of us, if we're exposed to domestic violence, that's part of the love equation. And so when someone hits the person, they feel like, oh, wow, I must be in love because this is what I saw between my parents. Now, of course, they don't think that through exactly like that, but that familiarity is what breeds the affection that makes someone feel as though they're in love. Right. Yeah. And then, and actually they have a bonding, a traumatic bonding to that violence that's occurring. And it's unfortunate because these individuals have a series of violent relationships. They leave a violent relationship only to enter another violent relationship, trying to reclaim that unfinished business from childhood. Exactly. I think you have, you stated a really good point there, Dr. Kennedy, about trying to replay something that they had no control over when they were kids. So they go into the next relationship, trying to mend all of that pain and hurt from their family of origin. And they feel as though if they didn't get it right the first time, oh, okay, well, maybe let me try it one more time. You know, this was a guy, I know he's kind of rough around the edges, but if I could just be more loving and more sexual and offer him the best in the world, then he's going to stop that violence in a way that my mom couldn't get the violence to stop against her. Right. I can fix my partner. I couldn't fix my parent. Yes. Yeah. That's a common myth out there I think. And you know, it's really understandable when you really focus on the control because some individuals who are or survivors of domestic violence have experienced some other forms of abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse. And so they feel as though they really inject a certain amount of control over their lives by selecting a partner who is kind of a wounded bird and then trying to fix them. And so they feel better about themselves only to, of course, find that they are in a destructive liaison. Someone who's hurting them. And then the cycle continues. Can you talk a bit about the cycle of abuse? I think that's fascinating that probably a lot of listeners have never heard of. You know, it is important to really hone in on that. I believe Lenore Walker, a psychologist in the 80s, and she's a psychologist. 90s was the first one that really focused on this cycle that an individual goes through with a partner such that they can be so loving and nurturing and appear to be a perfect couple at one moment, only to go through this heightened emotionality and conflict that erupts into violence the next. And followed by this calm and this honeymoon period after that. And so this chameleon process makes it very difficult. And for many years it was very difficult for the researchers to understand what was going on. But certainly it's hard when you're in it. You know, how can this person who's so loving and so caring at one moment turn around and become Mr. Hyde at another when he's just... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an on and off switch, it sounds like. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's also very consistent with learning theory. It is also very hard to disrupt. It's hard to actually leave that kind of relationship. You know, if a person is just violent all the time, you're just, you know, finding yourself getting up off the floor all the time. You know, you're... always in the hospital, you know, I think it's much easier to catch on, you know, that this is a very destructive relationship you don't want any part of. But it's that ebb and flow and that cycle that you go through that makes it so engaging and very difficult to leave. It is. The average out there for a victim to leave a domestic violence situation is seven times. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I don't know if I'm clear with that statistic, but that's right. I mean, I would imagine it gets on up there. And so hopefully at some point we can also comment on the leaving process because for some very violent couples, that is actually the most dangerous time in the cycle when someone tries to leave. Right. It is. Yeah. I work at a domestic violence emergency. It's a shelter. And we do get calls. And the first thing we ask them is, are you safe? And are you on a phone that the abuser cannot trace this call because we have to keep a secret location for everybody's safety? So we've heard some pretty harrowing stories about women escaping from their abusers. It is literally dangerous. And nowadays... We've heard more and more stories on the news about it turning out deadly. And that's true. I mean, I think it is significant to point out for your listeners that there has been some decline in intimate partner homicides in the last 30 years. There was a period when African-American women were... There was a period when African-American women were really a very high percentage of homicide in 2005. The intimate partner... I'm sorry. While black women comprise only 8% of the U.S. population, in 2005 they were actually 22% of the homicide victims. Wow. And so I'm just pointing out they were overrepresented. However, it is... It is... It is... It is... It is... It is important to also point out that there has been a decline in partner homicides among African-American men because there was a period when African-American men at higher rates of homicide, they were more likely to die at the hands of their partner than actually women. And that was... That data was going back to 1976 when... That was a high of 1,529 in 1976. And that's decreased to 2005. It was 475 African-American males and four females killed in a relationship or domestic violence episode. So homicide in domestic violence encounters... It has been a decrease. And it's unclear what all those factors are. But, of course, it is still a problem. You know, I mean, just because you're not as likely to die doesn't mean that actually you no longer have a problem in that area. Right. But it's good to hear at least those statistics are going down. I mean, you'd watch the news and you wouldn't think that that would be the case. The way that a lot of the stations report. Well, yeah. Because... The media is very clear, you know, any time that that occurs in the, you know, anywhere in the country, that is definitely a media event. And the murder-suicides are just very... Something that, unfortunately, we have this morbid fascination with. And so it's something that makes it to the news. And, unfortunately, there were many women... Who were incarcerated because they killed their partner. Sometimes after a long history of abuse. And it was this way that, actually, Limo Walker became such sought-after forensic psychologist testifying in those cases. Do you think that women murdering their abusers is on the rise? I mean, look at the Jodi Arias case. I mean, that was highly publicized. And a lot of people were watching that. So, you know, at least the information was getting out there. But, you know, I think for a lot of people, that was kind of a fascinating case. Because they hadn't heard about, you know, such twists and turns of events on an abuse case. Yeah, and it was very complex. We had... Really, one of the reading faces of domestic violence and the battered women's movement, LaViolette, who was an expert in the case. She was really involved with Jodi Arias and felt that Jodi was actually violated in that particular case. But did not really have a... A good picture of the type of person that the perpetrator was. And as the real details of the crime came out, it became clear that she actually was the one that had set up her partner. And it was more than just the usual kinds of DV dynamics. I mean, this was really a murderer. I mean, she really set up her partner. And had planned to kill... Kill him. And she did end up killing him. So, at least according to the jury. So, it wasn't your traditional domestic violence case. In that she was not really just fighting for her life. Or trying to escape the hell that many DV survivors actually live through every day. She was actually a murderer who was trying to... To get revenge and make her partner pay for spurning her affection. Right. And luckily, that's not a typical case, right? No. Yeah. It's very unusual. And the thing I liked about the case, however, was that it really allowed the population to really pay attention to domestic violence. And to understand... How pervasive it is throughout this country. Now, it does tend to be a higher rate than poverty-stricken communities. However, it's throughout the SDS. You know, I've had clients in my private practice who were in very wealthy households. And who were completely controlled by their partner's wealth. And... And occasionally was intimidated. And felt that she couldn't leave. She had no recourse because there was no... She had no career or money in which to leave her partner. Now, that is actually one of the more classic DV cases. Yeah. A lot of the women that come to the shelter have no jobs. And they are solely relying on their abuser to take care of them. And financially. And put a roof over their head and everything else. So, many times, they will cut their program shirt and they'll go back to the abuser. Because that's their sense of security. Whether it's, you know, safe or not, it's just there. It is what it is. And, you know, again, you have this traumatic bonding effect where they feel as though that is their family. And they don't have any recourse. And that's why the district attorney... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The survivor oftentimes does not follow in what's best for the children or herself. And I know we've been talking about the woman as the survivor in these cases, and I think that that still is the most common that we see. It's certainly the most commonly reported. But I think that as time goes on, hopefully we can talk a little bit about some of the other diverse experiences that we see in domestic violence cases throughout the country. And it isn't always the woman as the innocent victim who's helpless. And if she is, oftentimes the perpetrator is another woman. Yeah, the tables have definitely turned. On domestic violence as to who the perpetrator is and who the victim is. And you're right. I mean, it's not the stereotypical woman, the damsel in distress anymore. It can be anybody. That's the whole situation. And that's what I'd really like the listeners to understand. Anybody can get into a domestic violence situation. No matter how poor or rich or smart or not so smart you are, that's the reality of DV. And I'd also like to point out to the listeners, if you would like to call us and become involved in this discussion, our number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. Dr. Kennedy, I would like to touch upon, when we get back from the commercial break, on perpetrators. What makes people either become a perpetrator or not become a perpetrator? If there's any way of changing that course. So I would like to touch upon that after the commercial break, okay? Look forward to it. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous psychology, behavioral, and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses. Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, D.C., and online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health needs of society through classroom experience and real-world training. The Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit www.counseling.com. The Chicago School.edu. And thank you to the Chicago School for supporting Psych One-on-One. So Dr. Kennedy, can you tell us what goes into making a perpetrator or not? You know, it isn't just this, you know, one lone factor that causes a person to perpetrate violence, to use intimidation, and fear techniques to control their partner. Oftentimes there are a lot of other factors that become involved. For example, an individual is most likely to engage in domestic violence under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. Another factor is unemployment. If we have a person who's being abused, whose ego is really caught up in working and providing for their family, and they lose their job, and they are even being supported by the partner, sometimes they will end up lashing out at the partner because they feel so inadequate. And so then they begin to actually feel angry towards the partner because the partner actually has more freedom and, you know, is able to leave the house and do whatever she wants to do. And so sometimes that, of course, becomes a time when he tries to control her, either by the money or financial means, as we've mentioned earlier. When that doesn't work, however, since he's not working at all, he will resort to violence. And, you know, when we start talking about males and females both becoming violent, it is true that men tend to do more physical damage, you know, in skirmishes that occur. So there is often, with women who are violent or abusive verbally, less likelihood for someone to actually go to the hospital. And then the other thing, of course, is men are less likely to report violence. Right. Our society doesn't... Embarrassment. ...really value men who complain of violence from their mate. In fact, we've had incidents of police actually coming to the house, and if the male complains of violence, they will often just laugh at him and, you know, leave him there with the perpetrator. So the majority of cases, what we're talking about, is, of course, where the male is the perpetrator. Now, of course, there are instances where we have individuals who have been socialized in a very violent society. We now have cases, and I've done treatment for that, for American families for 30 years. And so we now, unfortunately, have families where there are, you know, several members of the family who have been involved in gang warfare, gang violence, over a number of years. And because of that, they've been socialized into a violent way of dealing with the world. And so oftentimes they have more access to the internet, more access to firearms. They tend to use intimidation rather than nurturing and affection, both in their parenting and also in their relationships with their mates. So I would say that violence tends to be a multifaceted, multidetermined condition. And so there are many factors that contribute to a pattern of domestic violence within the home. And you had mentioned previously about how hard it is to break the cycle sometime. And coming from a background like that, that sounds like that would be really difficult to break that unless there was some consequence, like one of the partners ended up getting maybe like a little jail time or whatever. And sometimes some of these, you know, perpetrators are in and out of jail, and hopefully they're getting some kind of help. And hopefully they're getting some kind of rehabilitative services and some kind of anger management classes. Do you think that is, you know, at least a factor in helping the perpetrator change? It's an essential part of that. I have witnessed myself individuals who you try to have marital counseling, for example, with a domestically violent couple, and the pattern of power and control just continues. There's not any stopping it. And so you can just tell by the glances between the perpetrator and the survivor. And then, of course, you know, during the next week between sessions, you end up discovering there had been some level of abuse going on. So one of the ways you cannot treat domestic violence, is by marital counseling. It does require a period of time where you have to have the psycho-educational classes in domestic violence, the pattern of domestic violence, and or anger management, where the person learns how to control their moods, because affect regulation is another deficit that many perpetrators have. And so, you know, I was meaning to get into earlier that there is a small subgroup, let's say 5 to 10 percent or some estimate, that are just antisocial individuals who are going to lash out and be violent, no matter who they are with. But the vast majority of individuals, they have been exposed to domestic violence as children, or there are other factors that are at play. And having classes is an essential component of the treatment or intervention process. Right. And you know what's amazing is that, at least in Los Angeles County, the resources, at least that I could find once I was on the DV hotline, and had an abuser call up and say, hey, you know what, I would really like to take, an anger management class or an abuser class. What do you have available? Well, I researched and had a woman, and this was a woman on the phone. I gave her one resource. That was all I could find because the classes, you know, as for like in an outpatient setting, seemed to be very lacking. Well, they, and they're tied to, they're tied to probation. So it's almost as though there has to be a legal case against the perpetrator in order to find those classes. But, you know, we do need more services available, and so that's why, you know, putting more therapists and educating existing therapists about domestic violence and the dangers of prematurely engaging in conjoined counseling is such an important part of the work that we have to do in our psychoeducation process. Because our professional community is not always as trained to address these particular couples. Sometimes we unwittingly, in our efforts to bring the family together, somehow undermine the safety of these survivors because we're trusting that the male or the perpetrator is getting it and have learned how to communicate feelings instead of hitting. But that's very rarely the case without an extended period of classes. What I've seen in classes is that, you know, the leader and the teacher in the class might just continue to talk at individuals who are new to the class, but it's really those individuals who were just like that six months ago, and they are the ones that have the currency, the flagger, and the word to really convince the new people who are coming in, the new perpetrators. So that dynamic, that dynamic of being in a group and having a skilled facilitator to have at least six to 12 months of classes in domestic violence and anger management, that is what is going to bring us the most likely intervention against these couples. Yeah, I would imagine that would be pretty powerful to have the instructor having been a prior abuser and saying, you know what? I did this and I regret it. And in starting to process out all of those emotions and to incorporate what may have been an abusive childhood on top of that, it's got to be powerful to those other people in class. To me, I think that would be one of the most beneficial ways of teaching. There is a way to break the cycle. And helping them to see that really patient and resisting violent tendencies or violent impulses is actually a strength. You know, the perpetrator or the man who tolerates a certain amount of verbal abuse from their partner is really showing strength, not weakness. And I think that many perpetrators get confused about that. They feel as though their partner is being provocative and therefore they have to teach them a lesson. And the only way they can teach them a lesson, especially if they're feeling inadequate about themselves, is to actually lash out physically and with violence. And so inadequacy is an important part, inadequate feeling, an important part of the cycle because individuals ultimately, when they find themselves having destroyed their relationship and perhaps even destroyed their mate, oftentimes they have no other recourse but to kill themselves. And so you see these murder-suicide cases, which unfortunately are much too high. When you ask, you're just scratching your head, what just happened here? And now we have children that are, you know, without both parents, or even worse, they kill the children too. Right. And that has been happening more, it seems. Yes. Yes, it does. They really don't care about anyone except themselves. So, you know, and they really don't care very much about themselves either. Yeah. And so we're really talking about, again, in the urban environment, we have individuals who have been kind of in this gang warfare socialization process. And it's very unfortunate because violence is so common within these homes. So what would you recommend to somebody who is abusing and wants to stop? You know, it really is about seeking out classes. I think that initially you have to be with your family. Right. You have to be with a same-gender class. I do believe that there are some agencies that have been very successful in having conjoint classes where they have men and women come together, victims and perpetrators come together. But that's about midway through the process. So in a year of intervention, you really have to have that first six months or so in a same-gender class where you're really able to undo some of the myths about what is manliness, you know, what is self-esteem, how do you go about improving your self-esteem and the choices that you have made to get yourself in the situation you're in. And for some people, it involves something as mundane as career counseling. You know, if they find themselves unemployed for the last three to four years, this particular person may be at really a loss as to how to better themselves, how to strengthen their family unit, and how to feel good about themselves again. And so, you know, getting them some counseling about a career or a job is an important part of the intervention process. Not that that's the only thing that needs to happen, but it needs to be a part of it so that they find themselves having some way that they can feel good about themselves even if their mate chooses not to return. Because a successful intervention is probably going to separate the couple, and oftentimes as the survivor begins to feel better about his or herself, they choose to move on. They choose to find life with someone else. And for that individual therapist working for them, they feel that it's successful. And so for the individual therapist working with the perpetrator, you really do have to prepare the person to be able to do that. Okay. And so the person is going to be able to live on their own and make their own way in a life, a violence-free life. You can't promise them that if they get their act together, their children and family will come together and they'll ride off into the sunset. Right. That isn't always going to happen. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And who wants to sugarcoat that anyways? I think that's just doing the family a disservice. That's why I know when I do counseling over at the shelter, I like to put the possibilities in front of them and be real with them. This could happen, that could happen. We have no crystal ball here that we're working with. So try to get them to see that some of this that they're going through, especially the legalities, is going to be out of their control to a certain degree. And they just have to go with what the system is commanding them to do. But when they get out and they're free of the systems, then they make better choices and have better options, hopefully, after getting the education at the shelter. We try to help them as much as possible with domestic violence, education groups, parenting groups, just group therapy where they can talk about their abuse and they can talk about their childhoods within a safe environment and feel reconnected with other people again. Because that's what we're doing. And I think that's part of the problem with domestic violence is the isolation. It is the controlling the isolation and the victim feels like he or she cannot go anywhere to get support and they feel stuck. That's true. And, you know, I wanted to ask you a question about your own shelter where you work. Because it's rare that we find shelters that will have services. So both the perpetrator and the survivor. In Genesee, which is where we have these supervised students that work in this particular facility, we find that oftentimes we do need to have services for the men because the women, after they get through transitional housing and they're up on their feet and they get their children back, because oftentimes if there is a domestic violence, there is a domestic violence episode, DCFS steps in and removes the children, of course, because of the failure of the surviving parent to protect the children. But oftentimes we really want to encourage the parents to step up and to have good parenting skills, as you just mentioned. But are you able to provide that to the men? Do you have any kind of groups in your agency? No, we don't. We take care of the women and the children. The perpetrator we don't have anything to do with because of safety issues. And I understand that. And I would say that the majority of shelters in Los Angeles County, and I think that we really do have to do better than that. We do. We somehow need to figure out a way to not only have, let's say, talking about the classic domestic violence case where you have a female who's a survivor, we need to make sure that she is making better choices in her selection of a mate. But we also need to provide services for the perpetrators and help them learn how to find other ways, to feel good about themselves and to learn how to love a relationship without controlling it and feeling as though that's the only way you can have someone stay with you. Exactly. So finding services is going to be an important part of the treatment process. Right, because you know what? If the abuser felt better about himself or herself, start building up that self-esteem and that can be rebuilt. That can be... Reinstilled no matter how old you are. It's never too late to change. That, I think that is the whole message behind this is that, you know, a lot of the abusers are not monsters. They're just confused as to how to express frustration and anger. And they're afraid to express the more tender feelings that weren't available. And oftentimes they were not. That's not what they experienced growing up. You know, if you are not in a nurturing, loving home, if you grew up in a home that was devoid of those kinds of expressions of affection, it's a little uncomfortable when someone tries to hug you and tries to get close to you. You really don't trust their motives. And so you try to... You try to create an environment in which you feel a little bit more comfortable. And that's one where you may have name-calling and pushing and shoving. And you're trying to recreate the violence of your childhood in this relationship with perhaps a woman who feels good about herself. And so your goal as a male is to really try and beat her down and intimidate her. And to get her to the point where she bows down to your wishes. And I know that sounds crazy. But I'm just saying that those often are the motives of a perpetrator. So do you feel that there's any hope for families who've experienced domestic violence? You know, I do. But I think there's a role for the court. I think there's a role for the police. I think there's a role for the Department of Justice. I think there's a role for the Department of Children and Family Services. And it really is important for a skilled clinician to not only understand behavior change and to think systemically about how families work, but they also need to be very familiar with communities and understanding the police and the hospital and the jails and how they all fit together. Because it really isn't a private practice. It's not a private practice or just a shelter that's going to really solve this problem. We have to actually do it with a multi-disciplined approach. Yeah, there are a lot of people that are involved in many of the cases that come through into the shelter. Many people. And it's very complex. Do you think that an abuser can be cured? Well, I do. I've seen it in front of my very eyes. I've seen individuals who take a class because the courts required it for, you know, 40 or 62 weeks. And then after they've gone through the program, actually begin to go through psychotherapy and then marriage counseling and then gradually get the children back in and really have seen some great successes with that kind of drawn-out approach. It's not quick. It's not elegant. It sometimes is very painful to watch individuals going through the changes that they need to go through. But there's also... There's also this small group of individuals, sometimes 20 to 5 to 10 percent of those that present with DV symptoms that just are very resistant to change. And for those individuals, sometimes prison is really the only option for them. That's why you're very... You're not doing the family a favor when you discourage an individual from pressing charges. Right. Because you really do need to have therapeutic leverage, so to speak, to motivate the individual to make the hard decisions that are necessary in order to facilitate change. But you also need to find out, is this person capable of change? You know, I'm a very optimistic person, I've been told. But even I realize that there are some individuals that are going to have a very difficult time. Yeah, they've been through too much or biological changes in their brains. There's so many reasons why somebody would turn out to be antisocial and not be open to making those kind of changes through classes and counseling. And I agree, I mean, it's sad, but sometimes jail is the safest place for them to be free. It's the safest place for them to be for everybody involved. Yes, it is. And now in jail, there are services available. One of the largest number of employers for psychologists in the state of California has traditionally been the Department of Corrections. So you do have skilled practitioners in the state prison system. So just because a person is in prison does not mean that they can't make some important changes. And there are many individuals who actually go and visit their partners who've been incarcerated. They send the children to visit. So just because a person is sent to prison does not mean it's the end of the relationship or that it's a treatment failure. But there is a process that's important. If you are guilty of committing child endangerment or some of the egregious charges that have happened in L.A. County, we've had a couple of very impactful beating deaths of children within the last six months that have been in the media. And you would just never think that this would happen, that a father or mother would beat their own child to death. But this does happen in L.A. County, and it's misguided. This individual does need to go to prison. I mean, you know, we can't reward individuals who are exhibiting that kind of behavior. So unfortunately, there's going to be a segment of the population that will have to go to prison. Yeah, because there's definitely certain crimes that... again, are not rehabilitatable very well, at least at this point. You know, so...exactly. Now, we've got about five minutes, and would you like to add anything more to what we've discussed this evening? You know, I just want to be clear that there isn't a... a one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach that I think is effective with all people. I do believe that there are a lot of idiosyncrasies in terms of what makes individuals do the things that they do. I think there are real strong cultural components at play that a clinician needs to be aware of. So your training has to include a certain amount of diversity training so that you become aware of... in L.A. County, for example, we have one of the most diverse communities in the country. Estimates for the Superior Court is that we have over 100 different languages and dialects open in the city of the Angels. But not only are there linguistic differences, but there are major differences in the language. There are cultural differences. And when we think about African-American couples, or Latino couples, various white couples... and I say various because Caucasian individuals from Italy are going to be different from Scandinavian countries. And so there's a lot of diversity that we're only just now beginning to become cognizant of. But the individual has to be very much... skilled at understanding how these dynamics that we've been talking about in general play themselves out within the cultures within different communities in L.A. That's a great point. And Dr. Kennedy, if anybody would like to contact you, how can you be reached? You know, I can be reached through my office at the Chicago School downtown campus. My number is 213-615-7246. Or you just call the campus in general, 213-615-7200. And that will generate an email, and so I can really access it whether I'm on campus or not. I had mentioned that I'm also the current president of the Association of Black Psychologists here in L.A. Congratulations. And so that's another avenue which you can reach me and get assistance. But there are also plenty of shelters throughout the city. The hotlines do a phenomenal job at really providing psychoeducational insight to callers and to making approaches. Thank you. And to making appropriate referrals throughout the city. Yeah, and that number is 211, which is really nice and easy. Exactly. We're connected with the 211 line. And just a phenomenal... That's wonderful information. Yeah. It's a phenomenal network of clinicians and resources. So by all means, listeners should make access of the 211 number. Whenever they need to. It's there for everybody to use in the state of California. I just want to just make one comment and clarify that I am Clive Kennedy and not the producer, Clive Davis. But wouldn't you like to be? I know. Let's have his money. Very different. There's a big difference in our bank account. That's for sure. But it is something that I feel very dear to me is treatment interventions here, especially around domestic violence issues. Well, thank you for being with us, Dr. Kennedy. Really wonderful information. Okay. Thank you for having me. And if you would like to listen to this program again, we are going to be downloaded and archived at www.clivekennedy.com. Thank you. And we will be available at www.skidrowstudios.com tomorrow. We are also on Stitcher, Facebook, and at the iTunes store. And I would like to thank Jeremy Hansen for doing a great job. And thank you so much for joining us tonight. And join us every week Monday from 7 to 8 p.m. Pacific Standard Time for Psych One-on-One. This is Julianne Good. And we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.