Virgil Williams and Amelia Rose Blair on TV writing and acting

Come on people, it's time to live it up! That's right! Live it up! Live it up! Come on people now! Live it up! Go together now! Live it up! Let's together! Come on people now! Live it up! Boom! If we'd tell them. Hello, this is Tanya McKiernan. This is the director chair with Rosemary Rodriguez, but she is in New York working. So I am the co-host, Tanya McKiernan. And today my special guests are Virgil Williams and Amelia Rose Blair. Hi. Virgil started on 24, then I worked with him on ER. Actually, we didn't work together, but we were on the softball team together. And then worked on Chicago Code and then on Criminal Minds, which I've directed two episodes for him. And Amelia Rose Blair, I have, gosh, how many years has it been? Four, maybe? Worked with her on Perception, Royal Pains, Blue Bloods. And she just currently worked on Virgil's episode of Criminal Minds. So I thought that it would be a great idea to put the two of them together since they're both friends of mine. And now they know each other. Yes, we've all gotten to work together. It's been absolutely such a dream. Yeah, and it's great too, especially because we, you know, it's called director's chair, but we like to, you know, it's great to talk to everybody in all aspects of television. And I love having a writer and an actress here that have different experiences. And then me being a director, having worked with both of you is interesting. So. Virgil, why don't you tell me how you got onto 24? Oh, man. God, I just was in the race. I had spec scripts and had just gotten an agent. And I actually got really lucky, you know, even though I really kind of believe that luck is when preparation meets opportunity. I was totally prepared for the opportunity. They read me and. It was good enough to get a meeting. And we sat down and had a great meeting. Joel Surnow and Bob Cochran and I sat down and, you know, I must have, they must have seen something that they liked and they must have read something that they liked because they made the offer. And it was fantastic. It was a fantastic first job. Fantastic first job. Great guys. Great show. And it was a show that I targeted. You know, you look at all the pilots when you're. Jumping into staffing season and. I saw that pilot and I looked at my. At the time, girlfriend who was to become my fiance, who is now my wife. And I was like, well, that's the that's that's my jam right there. And it worked. You know, I finally. Sort of got in. I got in, you know, this was in the game. What was it like the first day that you walked on the job? God, man. You know, I wish that I could see what. I must have looked like back then, you know, because I was probably quite sure I was bright eyed and bushy tailed. It was funny that day. Surnow is, you know, tennis balls in the room, footballs in the like, you know, throwing the ball across the table like that guy. He goes, here's here's what we're doing. And I well, the first thing that I did was I sat in a chair because Surnow was not in the room when I entered the room. Surnow entered the room and he said, Virg, stand up for a second. I stood up and he sat down in my chair because I was sitting in his chair. And then later on in the day, the game was, you know, someone tossed a tennis ball up in the air and your job was to try to hit said tossed tennis ball out of the air with another tennis ball. And I did it on the first try. And I took that as some sort of divine, divine sign that I was in the right place. I mean, it was like it was just it was it was a cool, a cool little thing that's kind of stuck in my memory of first day. And it was amazing because those guys were all brilliant. Those guys were all, you know, I was my early 30s. Those guys were on there. The youngest guy was maybe 42, 43. They'd all been executive producers at some point. They all had their own show at some point. And there was, you know, Howard Gordon was in that room. Bob Cochran is one of the smartest men I've ever met. Forget about just in the industry. He's just one of the smartest dudes I've ever met. He's one of those cats that can like quote poetry and stuff. Am I allowed to swear? I'm about to. I was about to. Am I supposed to like curtail that? He just quotes poetry and shit. Like that's what I was going to say. I mean, he can pull, you know, he can pull he can pull quotes out of the air like that. And I remember thinking, you know, I belonged there. But I remember thinking, I'm going to be good at this. I'm not good yet. I'm good enough to be here. I'm good enough to have my foot in the door and them to show me what's up. To be at the table so that I can learn from these guys. I descended to that. But. And those guys thought at a speed at which I could not. I couldn't do that yet. I was too new to the game. They were taking you under their wing. Yeah, there was a lot of that. There was a lot of that that happened there. Thank God. So much so that, you know, after season two, you know, my agent at the time didn't think so. But they didn't ask me back. But they didn't ask me back. There was a reason for that. And one of the reasons that they wanted to promote another staff, someone else to staff writer. The other reason was that. That show was top heavy. It was about, like I said, a bunch of EPs, executive producers, and then me. And I was starting to cost real money. Another reason was that, you know, and Joel Serno's words. He's like, dude, you got to go somewhere and be the guy. And you can't be that here because we're top heavy. The other thing is, is you're on a show. You know, we tell stories in real time. So we're backwards. Like everything that we do here is backwards and counterintuitive and not the way that it rolls. And it's time for you to go be the guy on staff somewhere. And you have our full support now. Go swim. It was that kind of a deal. And I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. All that stuff. And, you know, and it felt bad at the time. But it was, I still look at it like it was a tough love. You know, whatever it was. If it was totally pragmatic on their part. If they hadn't, you know, whatever, you know. But it's like, it's like the parent kicking the child out. Yeah. You know, you don't like it at the time. But you look back and you go, oh, you know what? That was the thing that should have happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. So, Amelia, what was your first job? Like your first big job. My first job was on a Lifetime show called Drop Dead Diva. And. Josh Berman. Love him. It was so much fun. It was my first job. I got to go to Georgia to Peachtree City. And I was playing a girl who was being bullied online. And I just remember being. So, so, so nervous. And the director, I don't remember who he was. But he didn't, he wasn't saying anything to me after my takes. And I was so nervous because I was like, why isn't he saying anything? Why isn't he, am I doing it right? And the woman who's playing my mother said, don't worry. If they don't say anything, you're doing it right. If they come up to you and say something, then there's something deeper that they want. Or something more. But it was so much fun. And so wild. And such a cool entree into the business, I suppose. A little French. Oh, yeah, I know. She's being classy. Okay. Classy. Classy. What was your, what was your character? Man, it was a while ago. I was a girl who was, who was, who was being bullied. And my character had taken a picture of herself in a bra to send to her boyfriend. And then the boyfriend gave the picture. And then the picture to the mean girl in school who then plastered it everywhere. And everyone was, was like really just being horrible to my character. And so my mother had taken me into the drop dead divas office because she was a lawyer. And wanted to pursue legal action against the school bully. And my character was terrified to do that. But eventually realized that she was going to continue to bully more and more and more girls. And if I didn't stand up, then. Then I was, I was letting her get away with it. And perpetuating that kind of behavior. Cool. So how did you feel the first day? So, so, so nervous. I had never been on a real set before. And I, I, I remember finding out like what blocking was. And, and blocking for marks. Because I didn't know. Did you hit your marks? No, not at all. I remember them having to like redo. My take over and over. Because I kept stopping too soon. Or stopping too late. And they're, they're like darling. You, you have to hit this mark. But I was just bright eyed and bushy tailed. Like the lights, the camera. There's extras. There is somebody who's going to be sitting in to take my place. While they do the, while they light everything. There's a second unit. It was, it was so much fun. And yeah, the fact that I was also not in my hometown. That I was flown someplace. I was staying. In a hotel. Was mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing. So, I guess the question I will ask for both of you. And either one of you can pick it. Which is, what is the best job or episode that you have ever done? Oh God. That's hard. That is hard. Because. Well, I know working with me was like. Yeah. Part of it. But. Number one pick anything with Tony McKinley. I mean, who would pick anything with Tony McKinley? Well, I definitely. Tonya, you and I, we worked together on an episode of Blue Bloods. I think it was season five, episode 18 or something like that. Bad Company. Yeah. Written by Brian Goluboff. Yes. Such a well written episode. Yeah. And that episode in particular really stands out to me. Because I feel like you, you helped me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. one of the highest levels I've ever reached in as myself as an actress. I watching that that footage back. I don't recognize myself. It was such. I mean, the both of you like write such intense. You know, you bring such intense material to the table and really challenging for an actor and for an audience as well. Like your episode of Criminal Minds. Oh, my God. Yeah. The episode title was? Hostage. Hostage, yeah. Hostage, yeah. But the episode that you directed me in for Blue Bloods was one of the ones that really stick out to me the most because it was such a challenge and because I remember one of the things you kept saying to me was like, hold it in. Don't let him see anything. Don't let him see your hurt. And even my character was going through, like she was addressing the man who had killed her entire family. When she was like 10. 10 years old. And so she was coming back to see him and to be face to face. And like all of my instincts were to just absolutely break down. And you kept telling me, don't do it, don't do it. And that created such an, like watching it back, it was mesmerizing and such a powerful choice because if I had just let it all come up and boil out, then it wouldn't have had that same effect at all. And that was definitely some of the most powerful work that I'm proud of when I look back on my body of work. Well, I think, you know, one of the things, and I think Virgil and I both will agree, and we even said it when I was directing my episode, Criminal Minds, just recently with Virgil, is that I think you're a breakout star. I mean, I think when you get your show or your movie or your whatever, you're not going to talk to us anymore. Are you kidding? No, no. It's all about connections. It's all about connections. It's all about connections. It's all about connections. No, I'm just kidding. Because I'd be like, girl, you better talk to me. You were good. But you have such an ability to drop into the characters that you play. In Hostage, I watched it and I tweeted actually, and Bethany Rooney directed that episode, who Bethany is amazing. She's such a great director. But just the places that you stick yourself in are the most amazing thing to watch because it's one thing to be able to say to you as a director, hold it in, because I don't have to make you go there. It's easy for me to say to you, hold it in because I see it. And I know that the reaction that you had on that episode would be the reaction that we got. And the fact that you are able to, I need you to explain to me how you do that because I don't understand how an actor can be that vulnerable over and over again. Over and over and over. And I know you get burnt out. And there's certain things like when you're doing an emotional scene, you film the person that's doing the emotion first because they'll burn out. But the fact that you can show that amount of pain and suffering for the camera just is mesmerizing for me. It's a gift. It's a gift. And also like for Virgil, for writing that episode, like I told him before we did this, I go, it was like room on crack. I know. I mean, it was, the movie room this year was amazing. It was an amazing, but if you watch that Criminal Minds, it took it to a whole nother level. And like I had said to Virgil, how was that writing that episode? And I remember you said to me, it was really hard. Yeah. It was terrible. I remember the first time I read it before I auditioned, I had such a hard time reading it because it was so hard. It was just hitting such a strong chord in me. Like it was a visceral reaction that I was having reading the script because I mean, the fact that that's based on a true story is so disgusting. If you don't know, if you haven't seen the episode, it's based loosely on the Ariel Castro kidnappings in Ohio where he kidnapped three women and held them for over 10 years in a house where nobody knew. Yeah. And- They had children. One of them, yeah. One of them had a child. It's a disgusting, horrible story, but it's true. And the things that is even more disturbing is that kind of stuff is happening probably right now. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. Right? All over the world. So it was really hard to go there. Really hard to go there. It was great to watch her too come out of, because the bulk of her really heavy, stuff took place in one room. It was that hospital room. Yeah. And she'd come out after a take and she'd be vibrating. She'd literally be, there'd be, she'd be doing this. And you could see in her eyes that she'd shut it off, that she'd clicked out and come out of whatever space that was. But the residue, it was cool. It was cool for me to see that. It was cool. And cool the way that you throw a really deep pass to make a sports analogy and then someone makes a great catch. It's like, that was cool. And a gift. I mean, you know, that's, I mean, there's stuff, you know, you're one of those actors that, A, I'm not worried about you. B, like the stuff that you do can, I think, be, I think be learned perhaps over time with experience, with exploration and such. But I don't know that you can teach it. Like, I don't know that you could, you know, you know, offer a class as instinct. It's instinct. You made choices in your read and you made choices on the day. Yeah. And that day, that first day when that director didn't have anything for you, that meant that, you know, I guess when I'm watching an actor, it's from, it's like, it's two things. It's about choices. What choices do you make? Especially if they're auditioning like stuff that I've written, you know, that I kind of know what I'm looking for, neighborhood I'm in. But if it's not mine, and even if it is mine, it's about false moments. We were talking about that a little bit beforehand. Yeah. And there's never, there's so many false moments because you're acting, you know what I mean? And even the really good ones, sometimes you have to, most times you dig out pieces of takes and you, you know, you, you, there's a construction that goes on. But this one, you know, was just like. Oh God. It was really, you know, you know, and every once in a while you get someone that can do that, you know, and it's, it's, it's, then it takes off. Then it, then it, then it achieves a certain kind of, it, it, it comes to life in a way. It's past you, you know what I mean? Like as the writer, it's like, I've done my work and I've sort of sent it off into the, into the, into the sky. Well, the cool thing about how you wrote that episode is you, what, what I particularly loved about Violet as the character was that she, she thought it was, this was good. And she, she loved her captor because that was the only thing that she knew. And that scene where I asked to say, goodbye to him and hug him. When I first read that, I got such crazy chills because it's so against what you as a reader, your instincts are, your instincts are, oh, get away from him, go as far away. But all she wanted to do was go in and hug him and embrace him. And I mean. Well, and she also wanted to see her kids too. There was that, there was that, which I thought it was really interesting, Virgil. And I don't know if this is part of the true story or not, but how she kept referring to them as her sisters, not her children. Which, which, you know, as a viewer, just for me watching it, it's like, how do you go through birth and think that that's your, like, that's how messed up that is. It's like, it's like, here's a child who has been taken at such a young age that they don't know anything about sex or birth or, you know, cause how old was she? She was eight. I think when she was eight, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and then for her to have this whole other reality that, that you would, you know, you would, you know, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would, you would think was crazy because we all know, you know, what it is. And, and so to watch that character, and I always find it fascinating, one, to watch an actor, you know, perform that, but then also a writer to write that. You know, I mean, it's like, it's like the scripts that I've done for you, Virgil, and it's only been two. It seems like it's been a million because I, because we're on the same page all the time and we're in each other's minds. But, but it's amazing to me how you're able to get that out on a page. Like, you know, I read, I read those scripts and it's like, wow, you know, you can, you can see, you can see, and you can see the vulnerability in it, you know, and that's, that's, I think one of the reasons I love Criminal Minds is because it's not about, it's not about the carnage and the, and the, and the violence. It's about the, the psychology of why people do what they do to each other. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but how, how do you, we talked about this a little bit when, when we were in prep and, and I think it's interesting because I was saying to you how I was talking to my father who is a writer and talking about his process and how he sees things like moving his head, but how other, other writers, he was telling me, Stephen Bochco basically hears everything. And I had asked you how, what is your process? Like what, what is it that you, what is it that you do? And your answer was, I forgot. Your answer was that you hear it and you see it like, like the voice, the voices, it's not all just one voice, right? You know, I think it depends on, you know, at what point you're sort of picking it up in the process too. And I think it also depends on, you know, what, what, what I'm writing. If it's a Criminal Minds episode, you know, nine times out of 10, all this stuff that I do is all, is born of God. It's born of character. It's always born of the voices. It's the, it's the, it's, it's some derivative of, of a voice that's been banked in my head already. You know, if not the, the voice itself, you know, someone I've encountered, listened to, met, read about whatever that may be, even subconsciously there, I think that, you know, I'm on sort of auto bank all the time. So it always, it always like always starts a character, you know, and sometimes you can't start a character. Sometimes for, for instance, this last episode that you and I did together came from, okay, we're going to bring Prentice back to Criminal Minds and we need to do something cool. And then, then you sort of go into the think tank and go, okay, what, what, what can we sort of build? You know, you go into the lab and create, but most of the instinct stuff, the, the episodes that really kind of, I don't know, sing in a particular way or hit or resonate in it, that's probably a better word, resonate in a particular way, like hostage. I think we're going to do that. I think it really sort of resonated on the, on the Criminal Minds scale. You know, they're always, they're not, they're not false. They're not, they're not contrived, even though we're writing, you know, network television for CBS. You sort of mitigate as much of the contrivance as you can and have it come from a real genuine place and, and you, and deal with real human emotions. And then, you know, you try and put your characters in situations that are dramatic, like her saying goodbye to that man. and our guys sort of having to allow her to hug him to get what they wanted. I mean, that is a very, that's not like a big thing. That's not an explosion. It's not a car chase. It's not a, but that little filament in that scene makes it work and it gives her, the actor, and honestly you, the director, something to, I don't know, cling to, you know, how they make sort of false coral. They can build false coral and the coral sort of grows on it. It's like that, you know, and something off of which to, I don't know, catch your vibration, you know, so to speak. So it really does, you know, it varies, but it comes from there. I mean, character and sort of what you need and how fast you need it because it's, you know, TV is also a race. It's not, you know, it's also a sort of a time trial. How long do you usually have to write an episode? Great question. So we, you know, our room at Criminal. Criminal Minds has been together for a long time. So we can break our stories in about a day. Whoa. Yeah, we can do it really fast. If we have, you know, a sort of tent pulse in place, if you know who your unsub is and you are sort of familiar enough with his or her why, which is what makes Criminal Minds go. So we can break the story in about a day then. And when you say break, you mean like? We put it on the board. So it's scene by scene. There's a little, you know, a few sentences per scene. All up on the board. So you can see the whole thing like we were talking about. Then you have a week to go off and write the outline. You kind of disappear and go off and write the outline. And then you sit down in the room and every writer in the room gives you notes. And then you have two weeks to write the script. And then you sit down at the table again and every writer in the room gives you notes. And then you have a week to write the revised. And then you sit down at the table again and every writer gives you notes. And then by that point, you're fast approaching prep. You know, which is. that time trial element of it all. You know, if you're episode 14, the middle of 22, you know, we're moving. Like this is what we're doing. Like we're going. You know, we got to break the story. We got to do this. We got to do that. And you're sometimes making changes. Oftentimes television, you're making changes. And you guys know this. It's production stuff that happens on the day. Oh, we had a lot of changes on our last schedule. I mean, all kinds of things affect your choices. So there's this sort of purity that you have, you know, one of my favorite quotes is 85% of the television business is disappointment. The other 15% is hiatus. Our Scott Gemmell. I think you said that to me quite a few times. Because you have this, when you have this pure idea of what you want to do. And, you know, if you had time, if we were in a feature shoot, you know, we have a day to shoot two pages. You know, you can really romance this thing. We joked about romancing stuff because you don't have time. It's a freaking race. So, you know, that's part of the game in TV, in TV. It's so crazy that an episode is shot in eight days. But it's not even eight days anymore. It's eight days. It's seven days. And sometimes it's seven days on cable shows. It's been my experience, seven days and 11 hours. Because normally a work day is 12 hours. And now they're, for budgetary reasons, saying 11 or even 10. You know, I think the most page count that I've done. And like normally, if you're on a 12-hour day, you could probably do, if it was an ER, but if you were, you could probably do, you know, nine. Nine, nine and a half pages in 12 hours. I've done nine and three-eighths pages in 11 and a half hours with, you know, not just two actors, with like five, six actors in the scene. And, you know, and I always say, especially too, when people want to get into the business, especially as a director, they've made the bar so high that you can't get in if you're just starting out because you can't do that. Like you don't, it's not that you're not a good director and that you don't have the talent. It has nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with that. It's like, it's like you're going to make mistakes just like all of us do when we start out doing any of our careers. You make mistakes and it's like they've, there's no room for mistakes anymore. Yeah. You know, so it's like, and I always say, you know, what's happening now is you've got your directors that are directing and episodic all the time and you're not really feeding new directors in. So what's going to happen is everybody's going to get older, older, retire, and you're not going to have these directors because, yeah, I can do, you know, I've actually, I've actually stood up and said on shows when they've asked me to do it in 10 hours instead of 11 and I'm like, I'm not going to do it because it's not fair to the person coming up behind me whether I'm able to do it or not. It's like if I do it and I always sit there and I say, you've heard me say, it's like you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk. It's like in our industry we are so good at accomplishing the goal. You know, especially in TV it's like, you know, don't, we want to crash a car but don't really crash it because we don't have to spend the money to crash it and then somebody's able to figure out how to do it and they're like, well, the guy before you did that so you should do it because then that becomes the new normal. And the crazy thing about TV is the director is you're coming in for one episode or sometimes two episodes but it's, you're like coming into a machine that's already moving and then you jump at the head of it and that's just such a crazy idea to me to be able to jump at the steering wheel of a ship that's moving and guide it. Well, it's you're the substitute teacher. Remember in school when you got the substitute teacher and either you liked your substitute teacher or you hated your substitute teacher and actually, you know, a director friend of mine who, I'm not going to say her name because she might get mad at me for saying that she said it but that was her analogy and I thought, oh my gosh, that's so perfect because that's what it is and it's like, so again, being a director has nothing to do with your skill. It has to do with your way of dealing with people and your personality skills and, you know, if you, I mean, think of how many, you guys have worked and both have worked enough in the business to know, think of how many directors that you didn't get along with. Yeah. You know, and it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that that director was a bad director. It just happened that they didn't fit into the family system. Yeah. Yeah. Very true. It's a team sport. Television is. I mean, I'm sure movies are too in their own regard but TV's a team. It's, you know, there's a writing team and there's, you know, different positions and it's really, it's a fully, at its best, it's collaborative. Yeah. And everybody has to come super prepared and ready to do their work because there's no time to rehearse or play it out. You have to just come in and do it. You're ready. Yeah. And it goes better when your prop guy's like read the script. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. And he's not, and he's not sort of like looking at the call sheet and seeing what he needs to show up with. He actually knows, you know, why there's a 44 Bulldog revolver in the story. Right. As opposed to just showing up with a 44 Bulldog revolver because that's what he needed. He knows that and we used that in our last episode. You know, he knows that this guy has that particular gun because he's copying somebody and that helps. That cumulative effort, you know, shows up on the screen. I mean, I'm positive of that effect of that sort of, you know. Well, it also feeds the energy. Like if everybody is on the same page, you can feel it when you walk on set. It's electric. Yeah. If nobody cares, you, you can feel that too. You're like, I don't really want to be here because nobody else does either. For sure. Yeah. Energy is flagging to people trying to go home. You know, dude's tired of laying cables. Like, you know, I'm just trying to get back to my kids. Yeah. That's real. No, it's true. And then, and for me, I think my, my biggest, I'm the big, well, you go, you both will tell anybody that I'm the biggest goof, you know, but it's like, but it does because it's one of those things where if I can keep everybody laughing all day, it shows in the work. Yeah. Like everybody's happy and everybody's pulling that rock up the hill together. And I think, and I think one of the biggest problems for television is the fact that features and TV are completely different in terms of in, in features, the director is king. Yeah. And in television, the writer is king. Yeah. And, and I, I honestly think that, you know, you always have the writers and the directors pitting up against each other, which is stupid. Yep. Because we both are going for the same goal. Yep. And nobody should be in, have, have full credit of, you know, of the project. But if you have a writer and a director who work really well together, then you can make magic. And then you bring the actors in who then have almost unified front of mom and dad working together. Yeah. You know, and they come in and, and they get supported to get the best performances that they can give. Because I always feel like if you, if your actor does not, feel safe, they are not going to give you that gem. Mm-mm. That, that really gold piece, like what you were saying with Blue Bloods. You know, it's like, and tell me if I'm wrong, but if you don't feel protected, you can't go there. Also, yeah, definitely. And also, because you're not quite sure what, where you're going, what direction you're going. Like, if I, if I feel like a director doesn't necessarily, like, they're focused on other things, then I feel like I'm kind of shooting out in the dark or like, this is my, this is my idea. But if, you know, I really feel like the director and the writer, we're all on the same page, then I know, we all know where we're going collectively together. And then I can relax more into that and really settle into that. But otherwise, there's always that constant second guessing, like, am I making the right choice? Is, is this, is this good? Is this good? Are you sure? We're moving on? Okay. All right. I guess that was all right, you know, but if we're all there together, then I know, like, this is the direction we're going and I feel good when we move on. Right. Right. So Amelia, I have a question for you, which I'm sure people would love to hear about. How was it being on True Blood? Ha ha. So much fun. So much fun. So we talk about how you shoot an episode of television in seven to eight days. Not them. No. True Blood, we shot an episode in about 21 days. So it was like shooting 10 mini movies. It was unbelievable. And I had been a fan of the show since season one. So to get cast in season six to get to, I got to work with my favorite characters on the show. I was starstruck. I couldn't believe, I couldn't believe where I was. I couldn't believe I was in Fantasia talking to Eric with Pam, Sookie. It was, it was incredible. It was so much fun. And to then be turned into a vampire, I couldn't. I still have my teeth. I put them in when I'm feeling, when I'm feeling down and I need to boost my self-confidence. I flick my teeth in. You're on the veins? Yeah. I'm like, I can control anything. I can do anything. So, you were on the last two. I was on the last two seasons. And your character was? I played Willa Burrell and I was the governor of Louisiana's daughter. And he was, the governor was played by Arliss Howard who was an incredible, incredible actor. And he was very anti-vampire and my character Willa got kidnapped by Eric who was played by Alexander Skarsgård. And then turned into a vampire and sent back to my father. So, it was a meaty, meaty, really fun role. And I think I'm one of the only girls to ever be on True Blood who did not have to take her clothes off. So, that is something that I, yeah. It was a lot of fun. So, speaking of that, since you brought it up, what's your feeling about that? Like, if you got a part where they wanted you to take your clothes off? I would, I would if it moved the story forward. If it was an integral part, if it was necessary for the character to move her forward. If it was gratuitous and I'm taking my clothes off just because they need boobs, no, I don't want to do that. Because, I mean, in my idea, like the quintessential scene requiring nudity is in Boys Don't Cry with Hilary Swank. Like, you needed to see that. It had to happen in order to move the story forward. But, yeah, if it's just for titillation, no. Just don't cry. I went to, like, Fame. I went to Coco. Remember Coco? I totally remember Coco. I love Boys Don't Cry. That's one of my ultimate favorite movies. But do you remember Fame? Do you remember Fame? No. I mean, I do remember it. I mean, Kara had to, her top, she did lower her top. She was on video. She was going on an audition. She cried. We're showing our age, Virgil. No, no, no. I have a few friends who went to the Fame school in New York. I remember Fame. My mom loved that. I loved that movie. It's so funny because Amelia and I are friends, but every once in a while I'm like, I'm old. I'm old. I feel like once you get past, like, what, like 21, 22, age doesn't really matter at all. You know, it's like, it's just about wisdom and experience. God bless you, child. So, Virgil, tell us how it was working on ER. Awesome. I mean, you know, it was John Wells. So, ER for me was, you know, the way that high school informs your life. You know, ER and that, that four-year run on ER sort of, I think, will inform my career in much the same way. As I sort of figured out, I made big mistakes and John Wells allowed me to do that and sort of recognized in me and sort of affirmed in me, like, you know, that you belong here. You know, don't fuck up anymore. You know what I mean? Don't do that. Don't do this. Don't do this. Do that. It was, and it was actually five years because I was on a show, canceled show, called Johnny Zero, which was a John Wells show. So, I got five years in that system, you know, and to do the sports analogy thing again, you know, if I'm, you know, if you're a football fan, specifically the San Francisco 49ers, you know, you got Bill Walsh who created the West Coast offense. And there were a ton of coaches that came from that school and that, you know, won championships and run versions of that offense and he sort of grandfathered this whole system. And Wells is, Wells is like that. Wells is one of those guys that created a system and it was fantastic. I mean, I was, I was starstruck too. I was, because I was a fan of the show before I got on the show and it was one of those shows that made you go like, wow, like, God, TV's freaking killer. You know, you know, what they're doing, you know, on TV because ER changed. It was one of those shows that changed things a little bit and it was an incredible, incredible, incredible learning experience. It was tough, but the best thing ever, you know, I'll cherish. Like when, plus the Warner Brothers lot, I don't know if you've ever been in the Warner Brothers lot. That's the best lot. It's the best lot in town. It's got such good energy. It was so great. Well, when I worked on ER, it was just, I just remember Christopher Chulak saying to me, you know, I went to him, I'm like, well, you know, I have the shot and I want to, I want to try and do this. And he's like, try it. He's like, if you, if you don't get it, he's like, we'll come back. Yeah. You know, it was, and what I loved about that show was that everybody was appreciated for the talent that they brought to the table. There was, so each episode was kind of considered its own movie. I mean, it was like, they never told you you couldn't do this or you couldn't do that or, you know, and so there was, there was an extreme freedom of creativity there. And character. I mean, you know, you look at a show on Criminal Minds, you're very limited. It's very limiting. You know, the emotion is very limiting. It's, you know, it's very high pitched, high velocity emotion. Like, oh my God, I can't believe my daughter's missing or oh my God, I can't believe my daughter's dead or oh my God, I can't believe you found my daughter. Like there's very, you know, it's, it's, you know, but on ER, you know, you could have three, four, five stories running at the same time. I could walk anybody into the hospital, anybody into the hospital. You didn't have to get heavy. You didn't have to get too self-serious. You didn't have to get too dangerous, but you could and did. And I could make you laugh in one scene and make you cry in the next. And it was just, it was incredibly liberating to be able to, to create in that, in that kind of space. It was a wonderful, like, I can't, you know, I can't imagine like this sort of, it's the canvas that you have to go off. And it was a formulaic show. I mean, you know, the dude's going to come in or the lady's going to come in and they're going to be sick, you know, and then they're going to get sicker, you know, and then they're either going to die or they're going to make it and then something, you know, beautiful resonate with the doctors that are trying to help them. And it was just. But you also had the stories with the main characters that, that didn't have anything to do with the hospital. Yep. So you didn't always have to have, you know, that kind of stuff. I mean, I think one of the, one of the favorite episodes I did was a, a naked dream Parmender. Yeah. Went, went through, you know, had a naked dream in the ER, which, you know, you would think that would be easy to shoot. But if you, but if you look at ER and the way ER was shot, which was all these amazing oners. Yeah. But I got to hide somebody's nakedness. Yeah. You know, and, and I think I did a. It was awesome. Thanks. It was, but, but it was also, I think it was like season, how many seasons did ER go? That was season 12, I think. That was like the last season. It was the last season. And, and. No, no, I'm sorry. The, I got there season 12. That was season 15. So I did that episode and I thought, when I got it, I thought, this is just so amazing because you don't get handed something like this. Yeah. You know, and Parminder was like, oh my God, I'm so glad it's you because you're a woman. You know, you know, because it's like she had to walk around in a bandeau and a, you know, I mean, it was like literally she walked around with a, with, with charts in front of her chest, you know, hiding herself and she had to go all the way out into the ambulance bay. Yeah. Oh my God. And I, and I had her have, you know, I had to give her stuff to like try and hide her and then, and then I, and then what was cool about that show and Criminal Minds does this too, which I was allowed to create things. Like I said, well, if it's a dream, why don't we start to think that it's a dream? So I had like an old 1920, you know, ambulance and these guys carrying this guy and that was all this stuff that I came up with where I'm like, well, once we, we start to realize it a dream, why, why don't we just let it go for it? Yeah. And quite frankly, the episode that we're, that we just did, we did the same, we did some of the same, we had some dream stuff in there and, and we did some of the same things and trying to create that stuff and, and I always think it's so fun when you get to sit there with your writer and just sit there and like come up with ideas and, and bounce off each other and, and it just, it's just so much fun. It's interesting because I, you know, tone meetings with your director on ER could last, I remember I sat in tone with Terrence Nightingale where we spent an afternoon over like cheese and wine, like, because you could spend hours toning the episode. Sort of digging out, you know, the nuance and the looks that you wanted to grab and things that, the sort of subtleties that, that, you know, eventually make the whole episode what it is. Criminal Minds is a lot different. It's just, there's not, there's not, there's the same kind of, it's just a space thing. There's not the same kind of spaces in there where you resonate because like, you, you know, you mentioned being able to go home with the characters on ER and sometimes they had nothing to do with the stories but when ER was at its best, somehow, some way, in some shape or form, even if it was sort of some sort of tangent relation, whatever was happening with the patients resonated somehow with the characters, main characters' lives. Even if it was, you know, on the nose, you know, more teenagers, Abby Lockhart's pregnant then what do we do for her? We're going to run her, run a bunch of characters at her. We're going to run a foster kid at her who's been put up for adoption. We're going to run a teenage mother at her. We're going to run a mom at her who's got six kids. We're going to run someone who, you know, is a drug addict and wants to abort them. Like, we're going to do, we're going to throw that stuff at her and she has to sort of, you know, look at herself. And I think when ER was at its best, you know, we were able to push the buttons in the main characters using the patients that came in. I think that's true. I mean, the episode, the very first episode I did was when Dr. Weaver's girlfriend died. Yeah. You know, and then it became about the family taking their child because they were, had a gay relationship. Yeah. And I remember, I remember it being about showing anybody who watched that episode making them feel what it would feel like if you lost your child. Yeah. It doesn't matter if what your sexual orientation is. It matters that, that this person who just lost the person that they love Yeah. is now losing their child because the family, you know, has some sort of bias. Yeah. You know, and that's what made that episode so impactful and meaningful. It was amazing. Yeah. You know, I think, I do think though that Criminal Minds does do that in a way. From time to time. It's hard to do because of the high-pitched emotion that you're dealing with. Yeah, because you always have to have the unsub. Yeah, because the unsub, and I don't care what's going on in your life. I don't care, like, I don't care if your dog died. You know, you just, you're in remission for your cancer and, you know, you're trying to kick smoking. If a serial killer shows up, like, that's what you're dealing with. That's it. Like, that doesn't, like, that trumps everything. It trumps all, you know, if you're dealing, you know, if your kid's been kidnapped, you know, that's what you're dealing with. Right. You know, the cancer takes a backseat until your kid comes home. Until you figure that thing out. yeah. So, when does your episode of Criminal Minds air? The one that you two I don't know. did together. I know. Wait, I think it's the 30th of March. 30th of March? I think it's the 30th of March. Nice. I think it's the end of the month. All right. So, what, and tell me, I think I asked you this question, and if I didn't, I'll have to think of another one. But, what was the hardest, Amelia, what was the hardest part you ever had to play? Like, what was the part where you, where you went in, you got the audition, but then you actually got the part and you went, oh my God, I don't know how to do this. You know, honestly, it was this Criminal Minds episode. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I had a, I had a really hard time stepping into Violet because I had such an intense visceral reaction to it. It terrified me. I was absolutely terrified. I remember when I found out that I had booked the job, my first reaction was, fuck. Yeah, now what? Oh my God. I don't know if I can do this because I had such a hard time even reading through the scenes because, because I would feel so much. It was, it was like hitting this part of me that I just didn't want to look at. I just didn't want, I didn't want to go there. And then I had to. And so then trying to, when I, when I, when I got the job, I knew that I had to be able to let it go when, after I, it cut and I took off my costume and I went home because something that's hard for me to do is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, experience in between like the days it's just it's there living with you so when I told myself when I booked this I was like I have to be able to let this go in between because otherwise I'm gonna I'm gonna drive myself insane because this place is so dark so I watched I binged watch Jessica Jones because I needed to watch some women beat some ass and just really take it out because I didn't know how I was gonna do that and I also didn't do because usually I do a lot of like analysis and breaking down of the scenes and I spend a lot of time kind of going through the different beats with this one I didn't I didn't really touch it because I could just feel that it was there and so when I would go on set I'd have no idea what was going to come out but it was also trusting that because I was having such a strong reaction to it that I was going to do it and to it that I would be able to go there and I wouldn't have to push it and I would just it would just fall in and I think in a way it did um and I took I think it did a pretty good job of letting it go in between but that was one of the hardest ones because of the the subject matter and I remember when I was going in to do ADR they're like did you have fun doing this episode and I was like no I wouldn't call it I'm gonna kill Virgil no but I'm you know I'm so grateful for for the opportunity because um it terrified me and and one thing that I always want to challenge myself to do is to go to the places that scare me yeah no doubt and do you think do you think through that experience you've found a better way to work or a different way to work instead of because I know for me like early in my career I've been in the business of doing I would meticulously you know go through my scripts and you know now now it's like I'm more I know what I'm gonna do but I leave myself open for what can happen and do you feel like this part helped you grow definitely I couldn't have done this role like a year ago I would have driven myself insane I I would have it would have been torturing like I would have tortured myself um so I I was able to teach myself or the lesson that I wanted to learn was to be able to um to let myself off the hook and to not have feel like I have to take it home with me in order to make sure that I still have the pulse on it that I because something especially with emotional more emotional material you're really what the fear is is to not be able to find it when you have to when the cameras are on you and they're saying action to not be able to tap into that so you always want to the instinct for that I that I have is to constantly be massaging it and making sure it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's still there and it's still alive but with this one I really was able to to learn how to completely let it go and just trust that all of that is boiling deep beneath me and I don't have to keep dipping down into it to check that it's still on because it's on that's I just I don't it it just amazed it's like for don't you think just like listening to her talk it's like I I wouldn't know how to let it go not not in the way that you do like I do it in my craft and I'm sure you do it in your craft but it's very protected it's like a very protected craft I don't have to sit there and I don't have someone yelling action at me and and me having to to perform and it just it it and I've acted before but it's like I just don't understand how you can go to that place over and over like mm-hmm How do you do that without being completely numb? It's hard. It's really hard. I honestly, I couldn't pick out one thing that, like, a trick or something to be able to do it. You just literally have to go in again and again and finding something new. Images, having very specific images in my head, those really resonate with me. I'm a very visual person. So if I'm going into a scene, if I have very strong images, then I can bring them up in my mind throughout the scene, and that will trigger an emotion. But also just not trying to grasp onto it, which seems very counterintuitive. But I don't know. I don't know how to do it over and over. I mean, I guess it's about finding something new every time and going in it from a slightly different way so you don't feel like you're just playing the same note over and over. You have to find the little things that are different so that you're engaged with the other person. You're in it with them. You're locked into them. You're not just, am I doing this? Is this the right emotion? Is this the right note I'm supposed to hit? If you're locked in with the other person and what you're trying to do with them, it makes it much easier because it gets your focus off of yourself. And we have, like, four minutes left. But, Virgil, I want to ask you the same question. Like, what was the... Was the script that you had to write where you were like, oh, my God, I don't know if I can actually write this? I don't know that that's ever happened. It's more about, you know, especially in criminal minds because the subject matter can be so difficult. And the research process that leads into the actual writing can be so, like, geez louise, you know, the depravity that you have to sort of read about and, you know, sort of reckon with, you know, the ability of people to be so... So cruel to other people. So it's, you know, I think it's been more about a sort of fear of being in a particular space for any particular period of time. Because, you know, I've had to tell my wife and she, I mean, she knows if she walks in the room and I'm writing and I'm in tears, she knows I'm just there. Like, she knows I'm good and everything's good. I'm just, like, sort of in it. Because when you're writing, when I'm writing, I don't know. I can't speak to anybody else. It's a process. You know, I didn't go to school. I mean, I got rejected from the SC Film School. Like, everything I do comes from, like, whether I believe it or not. So I try and write shit that I actually believe. You know, and you get a feeling. You get that tingle. You get that. You get that. There's a crackle that happens. The hum. Yeah. When you believe a moment. Like, you know, and it doesn't come when you don't believe it. So I think this last one, you know, this one that we did with Amelia, Hostage, just because the subject matter so. I mean, it's so... We don't really... We don't drop any bodies. There's no violence. You know, there's, like, some tussle in the hospital room when she comes after him. Yeah. But there's not... And there's a shoot. He gets shot at the end. But there's no, you know, there's no... We're not crashing cars or... It's emotional violence. Yeah. It's all emotion. It's all... And it's all... And it's all... It's all in the unsaid. It's all what's happening sort of after... It's what's happening after we leave the scene. Or what's happened just before that scene started, you know. And it was about sort of finding those little splices. Where you could tell the story and get the profiling out. But that was tough because I have kids, you know. And, you know, that was... I mean, that's probably part of the reason, like, in those scenes, there's no, like, when you... When she finally meets her parents, there's not a lot... Like, they don't really exchange. No. Because what the fuck do you say? You know what I mean? And in a scene that's not going to be less than eight, nine pages long, you know, on a network TV show. Yeah. So it's more about that. It's more about sort of like, oh, God, I'm going to have to be in this space, this emotional space. Yeah. For a period of time. And I'm going to have to, like, shut it off and drink a beer and play a video game. Yeah. And go hug my friends. Totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's what we all have in common. I mean, the last thing, you know, we've got to wrap it up. But that's where I... Because you laugh at me all the time because when we get in a scene and it's like an emotional scene, I start to not be able to breathe. Ah. You know? And he goes... And he goes, oh, I know, we got it. Tony likes it. Tony likes it because it took me to an emotional space. But I want to thank the two of you for coming. I think that this, for me, you know, I hope our listeners will be as enlightened as I was, but I could sit here for another hour, you know, asking you guys questions because I'm just fascinated. You know, I know all about my, what I do is my job, but as writer or as an actor, it's like always fascinating to me how you guys... How you guys work and how you do your craft and your creativity. So I just thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, are we done? Boop, boop, boop. Come on, people. It's time to live it up. That's right. Live it up. Live it up. Live it up. Come on, people, now. Live it up. Go together now. Live it up. This together. Come on, people, let's live it up. Boom.