BDSM vs. abuse with crisis counselor Tamara

I'm a mess man I have all this fucking shit everywhere what the hell like when did we turn professional um I don't know what the fuck when you busted out with all this stuff I had books I have highlighters I have pens I have paper and this is this is coming from the woman that is so anti outline yeah but this is a really serious topic so whenever this is a serious topic I can make an outline you can never make an outline why not because your outlines are poo poo well whatever you know here's the problem is you got so used to making outlines before when you had to literally write everything down that needed to be discussed everything that it made it difficult for you now to be just like an outline is loose it's loose it's like a table of contents and then we get into the chapters later and yours are tight like your asshole tight like my asshole tight like your asshole wow so we should probably tell people who we are about tight assholes and shit just saying if the world's gonna know that I have a virgin asshole maybe they should know who I am well then I am service slut and I am insidious muse and we have a fantastic guest with us we have a guest yes very last minute and uh I'm not gonna she can introduce herself yes please I'm Tamara yay and I do not have a virgin asshole so yeah well most of our friends don't most of our friends have actually pretty whorish assholes so we're cool with that almost whorish not quite all the way whorish yet work on it I am it's fantastic one day at a time or whatever I'm not gonna say what I was gonna say let's move on one cock at a time what what do you want me to say there you go so our topic is a pretty big big topic and it's it's pretty heavy last week we had a really heavy show yeah so you know we're just gonna we're just gonna bring you guys all down so fuck you it's Sunday and we're talking about in BDSM and in DS relationships is this abuse yeah and no for me to clarify I'm not talking about all play I'm not talking about you know the question of is BDSM in general abuse it's about those of us that have accepted this lifestyle are in this lifestyle are active participants within it within any given situation when and if the threshold towards abuse is crossed that's what we're gonna be talking about today and it's it's a really it's a muddy line in my opinion it's a muddy line because it's completely dependent upon the parties it's completely dependent upon negotiations it's completely dependent upon often some random emotional red buttons that we might not even know existed or weren't aware that they were going to be crossed until they were crossed so I'm gonna be talking about how it's handled after that because the truth of the matter is you know people learn their limits by going beyond them and sometimes that means that you kind of get an emotional scar at some point and sometimes it means you can't do a certain kind of play for a little while but the most important point is how it's handled afterwards you know whether it's actually acknowledged so we have Tamara on because she has been a domestic violence crisis counselor so this seems like this seems kind of fucking perfect oh yeah and she did research how many of our guests have ever done research? well no some of them may have we don't know that I can't remember none of them brought in papers I'm just saying she has she got brownie points oh my god just because you have all your stuff spread out and she has all her stuff spread out that's why you're like oh popping my collars no I would have been just as impressed if she had her shit and I had nothing I don't have an outline I don't have an outline well I actually did I emailed an outline no you didn't why don't you look in your email then girly because I shared a google doc with you biatch nope nope you didn't fine whatever anyway so as I was saying so how about if we start with you Tamara Tamara Tamara Tamara I was having a conversation in the car about is she Tamara or is she Tamara because I knew a girl back in the day who was like it's Tamara you know air as in airhead and I thought no she was pronounced Tamara no she was stupid so there's that but it got kind of drilled into my head let's you had some interesting things we could talk about I think everybody can accept an understanding of actual domestic violence in a vanilla setting interestingly enough if you go by various state standards it's different it is it's different you are correct if you know in some states if you have not filed a police report it is not domestic violence and then in some states such as in California domestic violence can it can includes includes emotional verbal and mental abuse which I believe is definitely equally and almost always accompanies the violence the actual physical violence and the interesting thing is when we were talking I have as we were talking as we were talking as we were talking as we discussed last week I was an emotionally abused woman and so I have all these books I have lots of books about the emotionally abused woman so many books which didn't help me at all so in one of them there's this little checklist are you being emotionally abused and I read it off to the girls and I said so here's the checklist you know you know you may it may surprise you but if you have been exposed to any one of these things on this list you may be being emotionally abused so I will read the list now and our listeners will get a chuckle the list includes domination verbal abuse verbal assaults abusive expectations emotional blackmail unpredictable responses constant criticism character assassination gaslighting or mind fucking as I call it constant chaos and sexual harassment which is a wish list for a lot of submissives that I know so when we're talking about you know some sort of abuse in the kinky world the lines become even harder to discern because if this is the list if this is the list if this is the list if this is the list if this is the list if this is the list if this is what the vanilla world would say is abuse well what does it take or does it as some might say for one to be abused in the kinky world and so now I will throw that out to you ladies and I will stop talking and drink my coffee no please please well I think the first thing that I want to say is we don't want to be trapped in the thing in just considering heterosexual relationships when we're talking about when we're talking about abuse I think a lot of people just go straight to a dom submissive where man woman and it crosses genders and it crosses sexual identities so it could be anything so I don't want to make sure make sure we're not leaving anybody out but what I did is I did some own research and let's just talk first what the definition of abuse is just straight up not legally just what it is and what it is and what it is abuse is a pattern of behavior when one person tries to control the thoughts beliefs or actions of a partner friend or any other person close to them abuse is sometimes also referred to as domestic violence battering and intimate partner abuse abusers may use a number of ways to control their partner none of which are acceptable in the context of a consensual excuse me negotiated S&M relationship these actions cannot be stopped with a safe word and can include physical abuse emotional abuse sexual abuse economic abuse outing which you and I just talked about and defending any of these non-consensual actions as the way real S&M works and I know that in my you know I spend a little bit of time on on FetLife not a lot I do see a lot of instances where submissives are being asked to do things that they're not comfortable with that are limits for them to prove that they are submissive that is a perfect example of abuse yeah that's yeah it's interesting because because you guys are subs right yes I'm not somebody's listening going what no I was like what did I sign up for he's scratching his head yeah and it's it's I hear these stories about these things that are happening and especially when they're getting posted on FetLife or Twitter or whatever blog posts and I always think and you too might be able to answer this question at the moment that this assignment this task is given and you feel in your gut that it's not right what goes on for you I mean do you consider negotiating do you talk about that you're not comfortable with it do you express that this violates some limit I mean what do you what do you say what goes on I think there's there's this internal conflict because part of you is just like but I love my D type I want to show my devotion in any way that I can and if it means doing something completely ridiculous I will do it but then again I'm a humiliation whore so whatever the fuck it doesn't matter if something's ridiculous I'll do it in fact the more ridiculous the better anyways whatever and so there's definitely a part of you that you know you want to show your service you want to show you kind of want to ruffle your feathers but then there's that other part of you that the grounded part of you that for a minute thinks wait this is a little bit uncomfortable is this is this and this goes back to our topic from last week is this me pushing my boundaries a little bit or is this completely outside the zone of what is okay for me right! and it sucks if you have no one to talk to no one to kind of bounce it off of figure it out yourself and I'm just I mean I'm lucky I'm blessed that that has never happened with you I don't ever feel like you know I'm being wronged in this like horrible way but I think that if it ever got to that I think the moment when there starts to be that conflict I mean forget like what's going on what happens afterwards but the moment that you start to consider wait this is kind of questionable I think that's the moment of reflection I think that's that's that moment when you have to take a step back and almost remove yourself from your role whether it be submissive, slave, whatever and and deal with it as partners and have a communication about it I think the worst thing to do is not talk about it that you shouldn't I don't think those things should just be assumptions fantastic and you know I don't think you have serious and it might just be you maybe it's just an S type thing serious issues with bringing up something to me oh yeah so you know that's great advice that's great advice absolutely and guess what you want to know what I have no problem with doing any of that but I'm not an S type I'm a D type I say things because it needs to be said and you and I have had this conversation on vanilla fronts where well you just need to say this and you're like but I don't know but because it goes it's contrary to who and what you are so although yes logically that is fantastic that you would say that easier said than done and if you were really presented with it what do you do? I know me personally oh it would take eons before I actually talk to you about something by the way I already know thanks it would take eons it really would it would take like something massive just something completely earth shattering for me to say look this we need to talk about this now and and be and be almost like borderline like assertive and just you know trying to get my point across because my fear is always going to be this isn't a backfire and I'm going to end up feeling like a fool afterwards because it probably wasn't that big a deal and I made it so much bigger in my head you mean like a couple weeks ago? but if it's important to you I mean it's how big of a deal you make it right so you know and if it's important to you it's about how you go at it too if you're going to go and you know ah you know crazy and emotional then you're not going to make any sense nobody's going to want to listen to you I mean my situation is a little different I'm not a humiliation whore please note that and write that down yeah I'm masochistic totally so but because we did not start out with DNS I have a much easier time talking about it and I have experience and he did not so I was able to say hey look at this look at this and we negotiated a lot we negotiate constantly but I think for S types you know your immediate response is always you always want to plead your dominant always you know and I mean there are things that he asks me to do that are silly but I'm like oh god I don't want to do that and you know we always we don't stop and think why we don't want to do it we just immediately you know we just want to please I think a lot of it is you have to understand what your limits are you have to ask yourself are you doing it you know it is important to explore there are things I've done now that I've I never thought I would do and I'm sure there are things that now I say no I don't want to do that and I'll most likely end up doing some of them but I know for some S types they don't have that opportunity to negotiate I'm hearing a lot of talk from submissives that aren't allowed to have safe words I don't understand that at all if you're in a relationship that has no safe words get the fuck out yeah even if you're a slave I don't I mean there has to be some sort of safety mechanism in place has to I don't understand that and by the way tops can have safe words too yes they can I have we have safe words we have signs because of subspace so you know that's something that and I trust my partner without question and he can read me very well but I still insist on and I didn't even have to insist he was you know of course but I am hearing a lot about that if you're in a situation if you're being asked to do something where that little nagging voice just doesn't go away then you need to start thinking about it and also there's cycles with abuse oh yeah so identify the cycles so you know and someone who's abusive will go off on you whether it's emotional or physical my experience have I have had a I have a background with physical abuse so I nearly lost my life at the hands of someone else so you know they go through a period where you know the abuse is crazy they're on you all the time it's everything they don't trust you they question everything you've done they look through your clothes to see what you've been wearing they show up at your work to see if you're really there they talk to people my abuser I was in school at the time would talk to people I went to school with to see if I was talking to other guys and then after that happens they go through a honeymoon phase they're really nice they start buying you things they want to do everything for you flowers gifts it's a cycle you know and if you can't recognize inside yourself whether or not you're being abused especially in a kink relationship then look for that that cycle is a big indicator a very big indicator yeah it really is I mean it's really common in any kind of an abusive relationship for oh but look what you know they got me because I don't know you could be he or she look what they got me they're really sorry it's a big reason why I hate flowers I hate them don't ever send me flowers because it reminds me of oh yeah that's not going to work anymore she'll give you the look of death take note I'll give them away I used to just start giving them away so but it's that's the same thing it's one of those it's that moment but I don't know I want to really really really quickly because I mean this is a huge topic before I forget what I want to say I I crossed the threshold of abuse on someone once once I was very young it was before I knew about the lifestyle and stuff like that and there was a guy that was an asshole I mean like I did not like him at all at all and he kept you know like bugging me and bugging me and bugging me and then you know he kept saying let's go out whatever and I was just like fuck what a fucking dick I don't want to go out with him and it ended up being just through happenstance and circumstances there was a double date and blah blah whatever shit happens in college and then you know when we were alone he had a crop and he's just like you know and I looked at it and I love crops you know I worked at Disneyland many moons ago and I had a crop and I had a crop and I happened to have a crop left over from the tour guides and fuck I love that shit I used to walk around with it I just I loved that even at a very young age and so I was kind of fooling around with the crop and he said I bet you'd love to hit me with it and I was thinking yeah I don't want to fucking hit you with it because he was an asshole and I didn't like him but he kept kind of goading me and asking for it he really wanted it and so I was like absolutely and I I violated several things well I learned several things then I didn't necessarily violate because I didn't know what they were I learned several things about myself in that evening I hit him and I certainly I don't think I did anything safe I'm sure I hit him in places I wasn't supposed to and I would not I mean I just kept going I didn't stop I didn't there were no safe words I didn't know what a safe word was there were you know and of course there was lots of pleading in the nose but I just like that so I learned I like that then but I went too far I know that I went too far I know that I went too far and he was almost in a fetal position and kind of like protecting his head not that I was ever hitting his head but I was saying awful things because you know that I can say fantastic awful things and back then I was much much worse because I didn't have a safe filter I was I was cruel cruel back then and I like stopped I felt like I was in some sort of some strange days I stopped holding the crop and I was like what the fuck am I doing and I dropped it and I ran out and I just cried I felt like I cried for two days because it was like it was the most horrible experience I could possibly imagine that I did that to another human being that I knew that I had crossed some sort of a barrier and it was awful and I didn't handle the end of that well because I just never called him again so that was fantastic so yay for that but I remember feeling knowing and because of that for me I'm I'm so hyper aware I'm just I'm just number one I will never play with someone I don't like and number two I will never play when I'm upset never I won't even actually I don't even have conversations when I'm angry not anymore I used to and it never worked out well if I'm angry just just give me space I won't talk but yeah so for for from that perspective I mean I learned from seeing from that side and maybe some people haven't crossed that barrier for themselves so they don't understand it but but that's just from the D type perspective because I think we're doing a lot of focusing on the S type which is great but I think that from the D type perspective you have to if there's any moment when you when you can recognize legitimate fear in someone's eyes versus that enjoyable fear I think that we can play these these words because we work in a different place you know but there's that difference where it's they're legitimately scared that's that is something that as a as a top you need to be really aware of because you can start you need to check in because you can you can cross that barrier right then and you don't even know you're doing it because they're not going to say anything because they don't even know you're doing it so if you check in then at least you can cause a little bit of protection for both both parties because it's not good either side in my opinion you're right there was an occasion when I was we were I was I was playing with my dominant and I started to cry it really hurt and later on I said to him you know that made me cry and he said I know I'm like well hello and he said I checked in with you I asked if you were okay and you said yes I was like damn right you did and and I was okay I was just more like didn't you see the tears but anyway yeah you did yeah yeah the answer is yeah I liked him and he liked him you should cry more yeah right D types out there you get me yeah I think another indicator is also and I'm sure that you can totally relate to this is if you're in an abusive relationship and you you one of the telltale indicators is you find yourself walking around on eggshells there's certain things you know you shouldn't say you shouldn't say you shouldn't say you shouldn't do you find yourself hiding things keeping secrets that's that's a really big one yeah someone really close to me is in an abusive relationship right now and she went to talk to someone about it at her church and she was told well just don't say those things oh yes that is fantastic advice oh wow power of God will save you and people wonder why I'm an atheist that is not good advice if you have to censor yourself if you are hiding things you are afraid to talk about things because of fear of retribution yeah yeah then and for me I think that the big point is it's not fear of what if this is the thing that crosses some lines so she or he doesn't want me to be their submissive I'm talking to you Nancy yeah I know it's that actual fear of something is not right it's fear bad is going to happen to you it's like fear of damage yes that's I think the big point yes I think one of the most one of the things that I think is probably more prevalent than you know somebody doing you know this beating you beyond your limits etc etc is the DS relationship where the submissive is just in now hammered with their dominant just under their spell completely and their dominant is manipulating them or toying with them in some way that is not negotiated is not mutually agreeable is not if they have a contract not in the contract whatever it is and that because in talking to the submissives where they're having these kinds of things go on the thought is but it's my dominant I well I must I must somehow need whatever they're giving me my question is when do you tell the difference between I'm not comfortable with this because it's pushing my limits and I'm not comfortable with this because it's violating me in some way how do you tell that difference? I think for for those individuals that's going to be pretty tough because they're most people in in relationships that are being abused lack any any self confidence they're completely insecure yeah I know they've been torn down and it's methodical if they weren't insecure at the beginning they're gone into I mean they really are and so they've lost that little voice inside themselves you for me I was very insecure but I knew what was going on wasn't right you know but I when it's physical it's a little different because at some point you're just like okay you know what I'm just going to die I mean I don't know what else to do you know but with emotional I think it is a lot harder because you don't have you don't have that inner voice that little switch that tells you and it's unfortunately going to take one of those hit bottom moments when you're doing it when you're doing something that you're like what what the hell how did I get here I mean you're like the lowest of lows before something flips a switch in you and and that's unfortunate and that's kind of why I think it's really tricky in the kink world especially with emotional with physical it's a little different right you know I think two other factors are involved for example if you're a person who's a little bit more emotional you know you're not going to be able to you know to be able to to be able to to be able to dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing dressing Because some of them are just uneducated and just feel that that's part of what being a submissive is. Right. You know, just letting someone do whatever they want to you. And some of them are so insecure that they almost want that. That's what they want. They want to be beaten down verbally, you know, mentally, physically. Well, and that's different. Yeah. Because that can be negotiated. Because looking at all of my books, I was like, oh, fuck, I do that. Fuck, I do that. But there are times when that's not. God damn it, Nancy, am I abusing you? Right. But there are times when that's not negotiated. Right. You know, and so I think that that's where it helps if the D type is aware of who he or she is, you know, and not willing to take advantage of someone like that. You know, it's kind of funny. My very first DNS relationship was a very long time ago. And I had just gotten a divorce from my first husband. And I was not. I was really messed up. And I was really uncomfortable with the DNS thing. I was new to it. I was really uncomfortable. I wasn't really sure if it's something part of me. I wasn't really willing to accept that side of me. And so I would start drinking. And we would see each other once a week. And I would drink knowing he was going to be coming over. And finally, after about two or three times, he was like, look, we're not going. We're not going to do this. If you're going to drink, then we have a problem. It's not safe. You know, your inhibitions are lowered, which is great. But you're not aware of everything that's going on. You're putting yourself in an unsafe situation. And I'm not going to be responsible for that. So it's either the wine or me. You know, and he had that talk. And I listened. And that was it for me. But it took him. You know, if I'd had somebody less scrupulous, you know, or more. Or more. Or more. Or more. Or more, you know, willing to take advantage of that, then who knows what would have happened. Sure. Or less aware of safety. Mm-hmm. Which there's a lot. And God, maybe there's more now because of Fifty Shades. I mean, who knows? That's the scary part. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I'll just. I can only do this if I get drunk. Wow. Imagine topping when you're drunk. Oh, God. No bueno. Sorry. Sorry about your kidney. I missed your backside. Yeah. I wasn't trying to punch you in the jaw. Sorry. Yeah. Not so much. I've been sitting here and I'm, you know, just listening to. You guys are awesome. I like just sitting back and like, you guys are great. I knew you guys would get along. I just fucking knew it. But, you know, you're right. A lot of people think about submissives being the ones that are abused. But dominance can definitely. Fuck, yeah. Definitely. Definitely be on the receiving end of that. Especially on the emotional. Especially in the manipulation. Exactly. Yes. That's a big thing. Precisely where I was going to go. Because I know for myself, like, because, hey, you know what? You people that follow me on Twitter, you know that I'm just, I'm kind of all over the place right now. Really? I did not get that. Right? My crazy is totally showing. Totally showing. And that's a constant. I mean, that is a constant concern for me. That I am, that I'm being emotionally manipulative. And I don't, I don't know if, I don't know if it's a me thing, but I wonder if, if other submissives are ever really aware that they're doing that. Yes. Yeah. No, I've, I've, I've definitely been on the receiving end of that more than once. More than once. It's very common. It's actually very common. Um, and I, I, I, I chalk it up to their, like children trying to test their boundaries for lack of a better, you know, example. Um, and yeah, no, I, I, I think that they're quite aware of it because I usually call them on their shit if they're not dismissed. Because if they're dismissed, I don't give a fuck. Do whatever the fuck you want because you're not my problem anymore. Even if they go crazy, which sometimes they do. Um, but it's, yeah, it's, and it's a challenge because it's not an easy. It's not an easy thing. Um, it'd be so much easier if I could just like put my foot down or put my fist down and be like, you know, you're going to stop. It just doesn't work like that. That's just not how life works. No. It'd be great if it did, but it just doesn't. Um, it takes, you know, a subtler approach to really be able to squash that kind of manipulation well. Um, and sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes people, sometimes people genuinely won't. Acknowledge or be able to see it for whatever reason, because if they were to acknowledge and be able to see it, they would have to see it everywhere in their lives because generally people aren't just manipulating in one section of their life. They're actually manipulators all over. And that's, that's a different emotional situation. Um, I happen to be a magnet for addicts and, and alcoholics. That's just, they are naturally attracted to me. So are you codependent? Do you think? Um, I'm not making a judgment. No, no, no, no, no. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure that I might. I'm sure. Uh, I am actually an enabler and I make them feel good because I'm not harsh. Um, and my, my father was an alcoholic. Uh, my ex-husband, although he was not using anything at any time, his behavior was definitively that of an addict. Um, and so I've gone to like Al-Anon, which is the ones for the people that don't drink because they're the not fun meetings, by the way, because I've been to the fun meetings and damn. I want to hang out with the addicts. Addicts. You people are boring. Um, but, uh, because I'm, I'm generally, uh, that kind of personality is attracted to me. That kind of personality, the addict personality is notoriously manipulative. Notoriously. Yes, they are. And so I generally find those people that then want to bask in the glow of me, whatever. Um, and when I say no. Um, they do whatever they can through whatever means of manipulation, whether it be through some sort of self harm to get my attention or some sort of, you know, showy dance, look at me, look at me, whatever it is. But, you know, and those are really the more overt ones. There are much more subtle ones, uh, which can be as damaging as some of the bigger ones, but it absolutely happens. Um, and it's one of those things that just takes time and experience to acknowledge, recognize. And be willing to do whatever you need to do. My thing is, I'm not going to tolerate it. Uh, I, I will turn my back on that person in a heartbeat. And that's hard. Even if it's somebody that you really care about. I can't do that. I did it for too long. Yeah. I was going to say. I can't do it. That's because of your experience with it. I can't do it. Yeah. I mean, to some extent, you know, I'm a, I'm a woman and to. No. I know it's hard to believe. I really. My boobs might have given it away. They're looking at my breasts right now. Sorry. Well, she's kind of got the cleavage going on. I'm totally ogling them. I put my nipple on my blog today. Everybody go look at her blog. Just a nipple. I had to get permission to do that. And then he was like, you never let me take pictures. Now you want to. Yeah. Anyway. I was going to say, well, it hurts, but you can't see anything. I wanted to show it. Anyway. I don't know. Um. What I was going to say. I'm a woman. And so. You know, sometimes women feminists are going to be like, oh, you're so, you bitch. But we do tend sometimes to manipulate our partners in little ways. It's just how we're made, you know. Because we're smarter than men. Yes. I mean. Oh, for showing my cleavage, obviously. If I'm going to go buy a car, I'm not going to wear, you know, a turtleneck. I mean, you know. But, um. My. The spicy guy. He's impossible to manipulate. Even in the little ways. Part of the reason is he's very literal. So he. There's no reading between the lines with him. He does not know how to do that. You can't make him guess like how you feel. You have to flat out tell him. And. And the nice thing about that, he's the same way. He doesn't try to make you read between the lines. He flat out tells you. So. I'm off. I often tell him it's one of my favorite things about him. And the thing I hate the most is that you cannot meet. I can't make him feel bad about something. You know, I can't. I've tried. I have. And he knows that. And I can't. I always end up. He's the. Honestly, the first man I've ever been involved with that I can't do that with. I'm not proud of this fact. But almost any other man I've been with, I can pick a fight with and get the man to apologize. I cannot do that with him. So. And yet I stay. But. But. You know. I was doing some reading. And we've been talking a lot about what. You know, what's. What's some signs. But let's talk about what. What a healthy. BDSM relationship. Looks like. Yeah. What does that look like? So. Let me read something to you. Healthy BDSM is when two or more. I like that. Two or more. Consenting adults. Consent to exchange energy, power, sensations, or experiences. However extreme. In ways that fuel their mutual happiness. Right there. Mutual happiness. Yep. I like that. And increase self-esteem. Another keyword. Words. In a healthy BDSM relationship, all parties involved are actively invested in the well-being of each other and themselves. I think that. That says a lot right there. Happiness, security, and the well-being of each other. Yeah. And it's of each other. Yes. Both parties. Yes. Have. Or all parties. However many parties there are. Are all. Equally invested. And should. Put as much on the line. As they are expecting. And I think that there is a perception. That. And it's a very false perception. That somehow submissives are putting more on the line. Than a dominant. I told. As a submissive. I totally. I disagree. I mean. I completely feel both parties. Are completely. Both. Equally responsible. Sometimes. Sometimes. You know. The D type is a little bit more. And obviously. Because. You know. I go to sub stays. Easily. So I'm like. Out of it. But yeah. Yeah. No. I wasn't always. I didn't always realize that. There. You know. There. There has. There was a point in my life. Where I. I genuinely. Genuinely believed. Well. Well no. I'm giving you me. I'm. I'm so awesome. And I'm so this and that. And. You should totally take care of me. There's no reason why I should ever have to take responsibility for myself. And. Oh yeah. I read a really great post on. At life last night. And I think I ran into it because Shelby Cross. Had also commented on it. And it was about the fact that there needs to be more personal responsibility. In DNS relationships. On both sides. Yeah. And that so many people are so quick to throw blame out the D type. Yeah. When we have a lot of S types. That are. You know. And I've never been to a dungeon. Or a play party. Or anything. So. We totally need to change that. We need to change this. Yeah. I know. Anyway. So. But. You know. I. This particular. Our post was written about. You know. S types coming. You know. Going in. And finding a D type. And be like. Oh. I don't care. Whatever you want to do to me. You know. Do. And. You know. Not. And then not taking any. Or owning any self responsibility. For what's. What's happened to that. Yeah. I mean. If you don't participate in the negotiation. Yeah. So I did that once. I put myself. I will admit to it. I put myself. In. In the line of fire. I put myself. In the hands of someone. Who did not know what they were doing. And I didn't know what I was doing. And. I. Because I felt like. Okay. This person's going to take responsibility over me. That. Really put me in a spot. Where. There were things that. That were done. And said that. That were very damaging. And. I didn't take the time. To really. Think about. What. What I wanted. What I wanted. Out of this. Play relationship. Because that's what it was. And. And. You know. There was. There was a level of responsibility. That I. Just totally gave up. And. I. I mean. Now. I mean. This was like. What? Like two years ago. And I still. Like think about. Like this. This. It was like a. A series of. Like weeks. And. I still think about it now. And there's always new things. That I'm discovering about that. And. And. Thank God. That I took my head. Out of my virgin ass. Because. I. I. I do think that. While I'm. I'm certainly not as self-aware. As I would love to be. And there are still. I still have a lot of work. To do on. On myself. But. I don't think. Our relationship would work. If. I just. Gave you. Everything. And decided. Hey. You're. You know. I don't have to do anything. I'm not a micromanager. No. No. That shit drives me. Fucking. Crazy. No. And I think. And I think that. You know. A healthy relationship. Requires a lot of balance. And being able to say. Okay. I'm my own. I am my own responsibility. I'm my own job. There are. You can't. You can't force me. To do everything. You can absolutely force me. To do the things. That you'd like me to do. But there's other things. Like. You're not going to force me. To get up every day. And go to work. You guys. I have a new job. Yay. Wow. Congratulations. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And if I can't do those things. For myself. Then. What. How. How could I possibly. Expect for us to work. I don't know. If I'm making any sense. Yes. You are. No. No. I mean. Yeah. About. About the balance. And the. Yeah. I get that. Well. You know. A common term that we use. To describe BDSM relationships. Is power exchange. It's not power struggle. Right. It's power exchange. And. And that's what it is. And you know. You hear all these things. Like. Oh. You know. Submissives really have all the power. D-types really have all. All the power. It's. That's not how it's supposed to be. Power exchange. Yeah. Negotiate. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. And. We don't do a lot. I mean. We do a lot of talking. Nancy and I. We don't do a lot of like. Negotiating. Now. Because we have a contract. And we did a lot of negotiating before. But. The truth of the matter is. The contract is probably. Fairly. Old. At this point. Yeah. There's been a lot of changes. Yeah. There has. In. Limits. In. In. And. There's been a lot of changes. But when we do play. You know. I. I know her limits. I do. And I know. Her imposed limits. And her real limits. I know that. And I also know. I can read her. I can read people. Really well. And I know when she's done. And I know when she's. Not enjoying it. And I. You know. And I. It's. It's pretty easy to tell. For me. Anyway. Maybe not for other people. But for me. So. But it's one of those things where. You know. You have to. You have to take the time. To get to know your partner. In order to know. That you're actually. Exchanging the energy. Because. The submissive has to kind of. Give the energy. And the. The dominant has to. You know. Take and give. And it's kind of. It's like this lovely little cycle. Kind of lovely way it goes. It is. Unfortunately. It doesn't work that way. A lot. You know. In a lot of circles. I was doing a. I was doing this. Just. It was just. It was just. A pickup scene. Which I never do. But it was a. Just a friend at a dungeon. Who. Who wanted me to. And so. It was a. Because it was a pickup scene. It was a negotiated moment. Okay. What do you want me to do? What's okay? What's not okay? What's the. What's your. Safe words. And how are we going to do this? So we did all that. Whatever. And then in the middle. Of the scene. Middle of the scene. She. Whispers to me. I would really like to do. Total power exchange. With you right now. And I'm like. That requires a lot more negotiating. And I was just like. And all I said was. Okay. Because. I'm not. I'm not in the headspace right then. In the middle of the fucking scene. To do that. And to switch it up. And whatever. Because like. No. No. No. No. I'm. This is what we're doing. Because this is what we negotiated. This is what was on the menu. And this is what you picked. Exactly. At that point. I am a service top. At that point. Because it's like. I'm not violating anybody's boundaries. Or limits. Or whatever. I'm not doing that. That's not me. I'm not going to do that. And so it's like. You know. We can talk about that another time. Because that can't happen now. So it was just one of those things where. Time and place to negotiate people. Time and place. But do it. Please. Just time and place. Kids. Not to put the gag on. Oh. Wait a minute. No. Right. I want to do wax play. By the way. I'm allergic to soy. You should have told me that. All I have is soy wax. I remember. Very recently. We did a yes or no list. Which. You know. We talk a lot. But we hadn't actually. Put anything down on paper. And. So I turned my list in. And he was like. It's interesting. Because a few things. You're like. No. I haven't tried yet. Yeah. You have. I was all. Oh. Oh. When? Oh. Wow. I must have really been out of it that day. But I. I did want to touch on something else too. I know. You know. A couple people have said. Well. What do I do if I know somebody. Or. You know. How do I. How do I handle that. And. I. I. Pulled something up on that. That I thought was really interesting. And this. This is. In. Specifically. In relation to BDSM relationships. Is. Me to take an approach. That's about. An ethics of care and empowerment. Rather than. Protection. Defense. Or punishment. And we need to ask. How can we best care for each other. Within our community. Not. How can we best. Defend. And protect ourselves. You know. It's kind of. A little bit more. Being proactive. Instead of. Instead of reactive. And. I think that. The focus. That this particular individual. Is saying. Is that protection means. That we're assuming someone's. Weak. And needs someone stronger. To defend their interests. And it. What that does. Is it creates. Dependence. For that weak person. And you're just perpetuating. The problem. And that's. That's not. That's kind of not what they need. And that's. That's how. An abusive. Rel. That's how. The abuse started. In the first place. Because of that. Dependence. But care. And empowerment. Means that we're going to assume. The person. Is strong. And capable. And we. What we need to do. Is give them the resources. And the strength. That they need. To take care of themselves. And give them support. And. What this. What I liked about this. Said. And I know. We all know. Someone. Who's been. I believe. The statistic. I read. Was. Three out of. Every four people. Know. Someone. Who's been. In an abusive relationship. Are. Is. In one. You need to ask the question. What can I do. That will help prevent abuse. Not. What can I do. That will make me feel like a hero. Ask it again. And again. And again. Until you go. As deep inside. What motivates you. As possible. And away from anything. That looks like. Revenge. Being a hero. Saving the world. And. Keep going there. Until you get about. Eight or ten answers. And you know. That you've gotten to the right place. When you say. Man. That'd be a lot of work. Because it is. It's a lot of work. Yeah. To support someone like that. As a survivor. I cannot even tell you. What. You know. One of my best friends. He went through hell with me. I mean. Literally. I mean. I couldn't hug. Couldn't hold a hand. It was horrible. You know. And. It was not easy for him. And. It's not. It's not easy. To support. To support. It's easy to want to help. It's easy to want to be the hero. Yeah. You know. But the truth of the matter is. When you're dealing. As you well know. When you're dealing with. A victim of abuse. We're not. There's no rational reason. Why we go back to our abusers. No. But we do. Yes. I did. You probably did. There's no rational reason. There's no rational reason. Why we allow our abusers. To. Segregate us. From every. Thing and everyone. That's important to us. But we do. And those are the people. That we need the most. And those are the people. That. I don't blame. Any of my friends. For giving up on me. I don't blame any of them. I would have. That's. Thirteen and a half years. That's a long time. And they all gave up. And. They should have. I wasn't ready. Right. To see it. To admit to it. To admit. That. Much less. Once I became aware of it. It took me. Once I became. Once. Not just aware. I acknowledged. And accepted. That I was abused. I became aware of it. About. Three years into the relationship. Like really aware of it. I didn't accept it. until nine years into the relationship. And I wasn't able to do anything about it for another, like, two and a half years. I just couldn't. I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't. I didn't have the strength. And you don't, yeah. And that's the thing. You know, you're right. That's if you want to help someone, you know, help them. But don't expect to be their savior. No, you can't. Because nobody can save you from that. No. And, you know, as a crisis counselor, I would get calls from the same women week after week after week after week. And, you know, my job is to listen to them and to try to talk, you know, talk them out of the situation. But that's on them, you know. But that was my job. And I'm not going to lie. There are some times I was like, oh my God, come on, get it. Can't you see? You know, but they need support and it has to happen on their terms. For me, it was either I get out or I'm dead or I die. Period. Oh, sorry. I just broke something. That's okay. It's just Skid Row Studios. But with emotional abuse, it's a little trickier. But it is. There is, you can't be the knight in shining armor. No. And allow me to, because we're starting to run out of time. For people that are in DSM, I think that, you know, if you listen to the show, this is a very reasonable discussion to have with your partner. Even if it's, of course, we're not being abused. Even if you, you know, don't make fun of it. But I think both sides of the equation should sit and go, I think we need to look at this and see, are there some things, you know, based, there was last week where there was boundaries and there's this week that's abuse. Those are real conversations that should be had about are we somehow, are we violating our own personal boundaries? Are, am I somehow infringing upon our own boundaries? Am I somehow infringing upon our own boundaries? Am I somehow infringing upon our own boundaries? Am I somehow infringing upon our own boundaries? Am I somehow infringing upon you and your life in some way? Where are we? Let's have a checkup. That's an okay conversation to have. It's a necessary conversation to have. You know, if at any point, either side of the relationship has had that moment where, you know, we have things that happen in relationships that you don't like, welcome to relationships. It's not happy all the time. Everything isn't all smiley and roses. And sometimes you get that feeling in the pit of your stomach, like this fucking sucks. I don't like this. This is icky. The question is, is it icky because of something else that's interfering because of your old baggage, which is a very real possibility? Or is it icky because something now is happening that is wrong and isn't somehow violating something inside of you? And that's, you know, somebody you need to check with yourself. Where are you? How are you feeling? What's going on? And be as honest as you possibly can. I think the hardest thing is to be honest with yourself. To acknowledge and accept, for me personally, to acknowledge and accept that me, a person like me, very strong, capable, intelligent, all of that would be abused. And I think that it's hard for any of us to look at ourselves and be like, I could be abused. Because, you know, we paint a picture of what an abuse victim looks like. And you can't possibly do that. It doesn't look like the burning bed. That's not what it always looks like. You know, it's not Farrah Fawcett. Yes, I'm showing my age people. Fuck you all. The point is that we all, everybody has the possibility of being abused and the possibility of being an abuser. It can happen. You don't know when it is. This is a time when everybody needs to just check with themselves. Think about their relationship, their past, their current potential, you know, and have this really honest moment. And then have a discussion. If you can't have this discussion with your partner, that to me is a huge sign. Yes, I like to give out some resources. Please. So I'll tweet these later. And on Twitter, I am CAKinkLover. And, but the National Leather Association International has, is a pretty great website. It's a little money once you get around in there. But, and both the websites I'm going to give out, they're pretty cool because both of them have safe exits on them. Okay. So I'm going to give out a little money. So what that means is that you can have a conversation with your partner, and you can have a conversation with your partner, and you can have a conversation with your partner, and you can have a conversation with your partner. What that means is if you are in a situation where you are worried, and maybe you have, by the way, another sign, you have a partner who's looking at your browser history and that kind of thing. These, both these websites offer ways you can click and immediately get you out of the website. And they also teach you how to clear your browser history, that kind of thing if you're worried. But their URL is N-L-A-I-D-V project.us. And I'll tweet that out. I'll tweet these later. And I'm sure both the ladies here will tweet them. And also for, and that's a kink domestic violence website. So that is a kink related site. Also just for straight up DV, www.thehotline.org, 1-800-799-7233. I do hesitate to incur, I always should call someone, but again, sometimes. For example, as a domestic violence crisis counselor, I was never trained in how to handle BDSM callers. I was in my sexual assault experience. I was trained in that, but straight up DV, it's a little bit better now. And this was 20 years ago when I got my first training. God, I'm old, but you know. Experienced, wise, let's go with that, okay. But again, please look at those resources. The National Leather Association actually has brochures that you could print. So if you do, if you don't know of someone that you're concerned about, print a brochure and give it to that individual. Just say, hey, just take a look at this. Nice, safe way to be a little bit of a hero without interfering. Yeah, and for me, just so you know, the most important thing is that you can print out the brochure, you can give them the link, whatever, whatever, wherever. Give it to them and walk away and accept that that's it. Yes. That that's it. You can't badger somebody into doing it. You can't badger somebody to leave their abuser. You just can't. It's not gonna work. They'll go back. Yeah, they will. I'm sorry, I hate to say it. I mean, you've seen it, I'm sure with physical abuse. You've probably did it with your own. I did it with my own. It's one of those things, you go back. Hate to say it, wish it weren't true, but it is. So as much as you wanna save whomever, because we all do, especially if it's somebody that you love and care about and you don't understand how they can possibly do this. I don't understand. I don't understand how she could allow herself to be like that. So X, Y, Z. Just know that there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, you can do what you can, but you can't force them. Lead a horse to water, can't force them to drink. That's right, I'm a horse. Look out for those links. And even if right now you can't think of someone who could need a bookmark it, I can save that information. You never know when you might need it. We'll get off the air and I'll get the links and I'll tweet them too. So we'll all be good. We'll be tweeting freakies. And even though you do give up on that person when they do reach out to you. Just be accepting. However time, be there. Yeah. Just be there. We're officially out of time. Now we're gonna do that wrap up thing that Petzer was talking about last night. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Tamara, thank you so much for coming on. This was wonderful. So glad you came. We're gonna send out some information links and stuff for people in the future. Next week, I'm actually not gonna be on the air. You're gonna be sick. So that Nancy doesn't hear. I'm actually gonna be in Boston next week. So I will not be on the air. But Nancy's decided I'll be sick. Yeah. Cause that's working for her. And then the following week, we have a marriage and family therapist coming on to help discuss Polly. And then the following week, we have a dirty Lola and a dirty hubby coming on. We've got some shit coming down people. You do not wanna miss our awesome fucking show. But I'm Insidious Muse. I'm Service Sled. This is a CA kink lover or Tamara. And thanks for tuning in. Thank you. Wow. Show just flies. Tune into the love bite where all your kinky desires come true. Sundays, three to 4 p.m. Pacific time at skidrowstudios.com. And I'll see you next week. Bye. Bye.