Interview with Freya on Coolhaus and Ludlow's

Hello and welcome to the life of an entrepreneur. I'm Jan McCarthy with Entrepreneurial Voice and we are broadcasting live today from skidrowstudios.com. We're downtown Los Angeles and we're real radio on the internet and we're here every Tuesday at 11 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. And we're here to talk about entrepreneurship and I'm very very excited to talk to our guest today who is Freya and she has launched several companies that we're going to talk about. Cool House and Ludlow Jell-O shots. Yeah. Cocktails. It's all very very exciting. So I also just wanted to let our listeners know that if you want to call in and talk to myself or Freya our number is 1-800-893-9550. So welcome. Oh thank you so much for having me. So exciting. So I met you about a month ago and I said wow you're super cool. Look at what you're doing. You're like ice cream Jell-O shots. And at that point I didn't even know it was ice cream. So I thought wow this girl really has it going on. And then you told me about Cool House too. And so exciting. So let's just jump right in and start with like how did you get here. Yeah. Yeah. So Cool House started back in 2009. So right at the I guess height of the recession I met my business partner Natasha and she was an architect. I was in real estate development and we were sort of having our. Those go together. I mean those do go together but ice cream. Yeah exactly. Yeah. We'll make the connection to ice cream right now. But we kind of were having or I was having a quarter life crisis. I was like 26. I was like do I want to do real estate development for the rest of my life. I think I want to start moving into the food industry. And she had just she had gotten a job at Disney Imagineering and was making ice cream sandwiches and naming them after architects. And I was like this is hilarious and such a funny art project and sort of elitist like who's going to get it like Miss Vanilla Row and Richard Meyer lemon ice cream and Frank Berry like all those puns. But I was like completely drawn to it. And it was like let's let's make this an art project and potentially turn it into a business. So we launched at the Coachella Valley Music Festival that April with a dilapidated twenty nine hundred dollar ice cream truck that we found on Craigslist. Wow. That didn't even drive. We had to trick triple A to tow it for us by buying the premier membership because that gets you like two free toes. So. Oh I love this creativity. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's called bootstrapping. Right. So. Well it's called bootstrapping with a major in creativity. Yes. The hashtag hustle if you will these days. So we get there we launch and we learn so many lessons like our signage was wrong. We didn't really know the health health regulations the health code. So totally winging it and it goes viral just because the timing like the Kogi Korean taco truck had just started. We were maybe the third. Gourmet truck to hit the streets and the first one to sort of reinvent desserts and ice cream. So we sort of you know rode that wave and you know grew the company to the you know we just celebrated our five year anniversary. We now have 12 trucks in L.A. New York Austin Dallas to brick and mortars Culver City in Old Town Pasadena and are sold in over 3000 stores in almost every state including Guam and Puerto Rico of our you know ice cream sandwiches. Ice cream sandwiches. ice cream bars and pints. So we, you know, took that little experience and leveraged it, you know, to where it is now and growing. This is just one of the coolest stories. I love it. And of course, being at Coachella, what a place to be to launch this, right? Yeah. I mean, in front of 100,000 young people. Who are hot. Yeah, hot and need ice cream. Right. So that's brilliant. And did you come up with, how did you come up with the names that you came up for the ice cream sandwiches? So, you know, we just sort of, you know, sort of brainstormed. We'd have some wine. We'd start talking about our favorite architects and what sort of puns we can make with their names. So it's pretty easy. You know, we don't, we'd also look at architects that Natasha worked with, like Mark Mack, who's a famous like Venice architect that became Mark Macadamia, like white chocolate, Mark Macadamia nut. That's great. Yeah. Which was super, super fun. But it was interesting. A lot of buyers, especially at the grocery stores, didn't really get it really. Cause you know, they're looking at macro trends. Like they're like, what is this $5 ice cream sandwich with an architectural twist? I mean, even Cool House in itself, the name of the company is a triple entendre on Rem Coolhouse, the Bauhaus movement. Got it. And the fact that an ice cream sandwich is a cold house, if you will. Yes. Yes. But I've had the buyers at Whole Foods and also at our distributors admit to us now that they did not think it was going to fly. They were like, this is not going to sell, but look at these girls. They have, you know, look at their gusto. They're so cute. Like let's, let's give them a chance. And we've completely proved them wrong. Well, that's okay. As long as you get, get your foot in the door, however you can. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Now, so that's quite a leap. That was something like take something that's fun. Oh, let's see, what we can do with it in it. And it obviously turned into this mega, mega thing. But tell me what your background was besides real estate development. What were you thinking you were going to do when you were young and you were getting ready to go to go off, you know, finish school and, and, and, and start your life? Yeah. So I majored in sociology at Cornell, mainly because I, and I was kind of like into, I guess, partying in college. As most college students are. And it had the least requirement. So I chose that major, but really started, it really started to resonate with me. I loved learning about organizational culture and language and rituals and how that reinforces behavior, especially in the workplace. So my honors thesis, my senior year was written on, my experience that summer being a door-to-door salesman. Like I was tired of my like corporate jobs, internships over the summer. And I was like, I want to do something totally different and weird and get out there. And I answered this ad on Craigslist for sports marketing for the Lakers and the Dodgers. Little did I know it's selling those like buy one, get one free coupons door-to-door. Okay. So I go there to the first interview the first day and I was like, this is crazy. I'm not doing this, but started to realize that I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. started to realize like the sociologist in me clicked in the participant observer and was like wait a minute how are they able to keep everyone here they're creating this culture they're creating these rules the they're engaging them to the point that they think that this is the best job ever so I wrote my thesis on that and I think that in you know and then you know went off and did real estate development for a big home builder Ryan Holmes back in DC which was also sort of a sociological experiment because I was the only girl there it was completely male dominated I was a project manager on the ground with a pickup truck in a hard hat and steel-toed boots and pearls manage managing a five million dollar construction site and not knowing anything about construction so just sort of throwing myself into these weird you know I don't know what to do with it but I was like I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it cultural rich culturally rich scenarios and I think that sort of really helped me you know make the jump to cool house which were you know an ice cream and food which I knew nothing about and really like doing the deep dive into it and not being afraid and then now yeah I was just going to say I mean there's there's this you're not afraid to just go out and and see what this is about and really take a look at it from all these different angles and and to even get that job probably two or three years later I'm going to be able to do it and I'm going to be able to do it and I'm going to be able to do it and I'm going to be able to do it and I'm going to be able to do it a lot of chutzpah if you didn't have that kind of experience to come in and do that with the with Ryan Holmes and the real estate development totally I mean they were trying to veer me towards sales sales and marketing because most women right went to sales and marketing and all the dudes went to project management and I was like no I want the pickup truck yeah sounds great so so you had to do a little sales job on them just even convince them to give you that chance oh yeah you do that yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely and then as soon as they saw that you know I could pick it up and I was quick a quick learner and smart and could figure it out they put me on the management fast track they're like okay now we want to shift you to sales and marketing because there just aren't that many women who have both so do you think that I mean because the fact that you went in and you weren't afraid I didn't know you didn't know anything about this but this is what I want and I'm willing to take that on because a lot of people would have taken the safe route you know I actually went to there is this speaker thing that I went to at Harvard at Harvard Westlake Natasha went to Harvard Westlake so we were like very active with the alumni group and the young entrepreneur group and this one entrepreneur you know was telling us his his life story and he'd done like five triathletes and wrote a book and has like five companies and whatever like you know very impressive guy and he said whenever he comes across a situation that makes him feel really comfortable like in your gut like super nervous that's when he knows to go for it oh I like that and do it and so now whenever I get that feeling I know that I should be I just need to do it so that really resonated with you absolutely yeah I I really like that and so I mean just going back to whenever you all went to Coachella with this ice cream truck and okay so how do we get it in there and you came up with that creative solution you weren't afraid of the fact that you didn't know what the hell you were doing yeah exactly uh but you knew people liked ice cream and so you decided to have fun with it but it didn't stop you from the fact that you didn't know exactly what you were doing or didn't know and of course you can never know what the outcome was going to be yeah and I think you can use that to your advantage like one thing Natasha and I talk about a lot is that you can walk through a wall if you don't know it's there right you know and and that was sort of the same approach I took with now entering the spirits industry with Ludlow's cocktail company and like our whole ethos is let's make fun all-natural innovative spirited products made by Millennials for Millennials and it's a completely male dominated industry kind of stodgy sort of cheesy women it's a little sexist women when I go to these trade shows are not the brand owners they're the promo girls in in skinny you know black dresses right and we were like let's disrupt that good and but I know nothing about it so I'm just gonna like deep you know do a deep dive into it and see what it's all about yeah no that's really great so I definitely want to get into that and and some of the things that we talked about earlier just before the show but when you went so it was very successful at Coachella and you went like yeah we got something going on here we we might have something that we can go further with so what was that next step and how did you get into all of the stores and and start making inroads into all of these places and doing what you've done and being so successful when you think about people who come out with a product and even if it's super cool they don't know how to create those distribution channels and so how did you all what did you have a mentor did you sit down and read books and go online yeah okay how do I get into Whole Foods, how did you, what was that, what were those steps? Yeah. So, you know, in the beginning, the first three years, we were not focused on wholesale or distribution or supermarkets at all. So the first three years were, let's sort of refine the business model, just knowing, you know, from my real estate development and finance background of making financial projections and performas and valuations, that was enough to figure out like, okay, we need economies of scale. How are we going to pay ourselves? We need multiple revenue sources, which means we need multiple trucks. If we're going to, Natasha and I are going to be able to work on the business, not in the business. So immediately after launching the first truck, we raised money from friends and family to do the second truck, so forth and so forth. And so we're like, okay, now we've got a couple trucks, two to three trucks on the road. What's, what are the next revenue sources we can sort of, you know, play with? We think about, you know, how do we make money? And so we're like, okay, we're going to make money. We thought restaurants and supermarkets. So let's just test the waters a little. And at this point, we're still like hand-making the pre-packaged sandwiches. It's super annoying. We're doing the distribution ourselves. And of course, when you're selling your product wholesale, you've cut your margin in half. So we didn't really find that it was a good use of our time. So we didn't really focus on it. But we did get into a couple key accounts at first, like Verscouch in downtown LA, Oaks Gourmet in Hollywood, you know, accounts that were on brand with us and that were supporting local businesses. Around that time in 2011, we brought in our first angel investor who invested about $300,000 to open up a brick and mortar and focus more on the wholesale and sort of bring a truck and open up our trucks in New York. I think in that priority list, wholesale was sort of the last thing on his list. And it was a big deal. And I think that's what we're seeing. And I think that's a big deal. And I think that's a big deal. And I think that's a big deal. And I think that's a big deal. We ended up sort of parting ways with that investor. It didn't work out. Just the management styles, personalities, our visions were not aligned. So thankfully, we were able to convert that equity to debt and free up some equity for the next investor who we met subsequently very quickly afterwards, Bobby Margolis. I totally credit him for the pivot to the wholesale distribution and grocery side. He looked at our business plan. We were like, we want to open up. We want to open up. Two trucks in every major city. We want $5 million to do all this. And he was like, ladies, calm down. He's like, what is the ultimate goal with this? And I said, look, Ben and Jerry's sold to Unilever for $250 million something back in 2000. They didn't make their own ice cream. Dryers co-packed for them. Dryers distributed it. And they had an operating profit margin of, I don't know, 4%. They built a brand. We want to be the next Ben and Jerry's. And he's like, okay, we're on the same page. You just don't know it yet. So here's a million dollars. And we're going to blow out the wholesale distribution side because you can still get awesome multiples on valuation. There's a lot of exit opportunities. If you build a bunch of trucks, like what are we going to end up with? You're just going to have a bunch of trucks. Yeah. So that was 2011. We started off in 25 Whole Foods by just walking into our local Whole Foods. Natasha and I had no idea about like buyers, distributors, you know, what retailers are looking for, merchandising, the four Ps, like the product promotion, placement. We were like, I don't know anything about this, but let's just see what happens. And the regional forager who admitted to us now, she didn't think it was going to work. She's like, okay, we'll do a three-store test. We'll test you out in Venice, Pasadena, and Glendale. Did pretty well. And our packaging was not the best. It was, we had a box with that looked like a truck. We're like, this is so cute. And we were hiring people to put stickers on it for the flavor. So there was no flavor differentiation. So literally when you walked into the freezer aisle, people were confused. They're like, what is that? What's in that box? So if you didn't know what Cool House was, you just walked right by it. 2012, we tried change the packaging to color-coded foil. It was cheaper. I mean, the minimums were higher, but we were able to obviously use the funds to really focus on the packaging and product development more. Sales increased by 500%. Wow. Yeah. Just by changing the packaging. So, you know, we learned a lot of lessons along the way. And then obviously going to the trade shows, we had no idea. We're like, oh, there's a trade show we should be going to like fancy food show or the natural food expo or distributor trade show. Oh, what's a distributor? Oh, UNFI is the, the exclusive distributor for Whole Foods. We need to sell to them, but we need to, it's chicken or the egg. You can't get the distributor without the retailer's PO and you can't get the retailer on board if they know you don't have distribution. So thankfully as part of the investment, Bobby's son-in-law, Dan Fishman came to work for us full-time and to be president of wholesale, which is very rare. Usually when there's some sort of angel investment, even private equity, they're not working on your company full-time. Right. So we were very lucky and blessed to have, to have them on board. Was there any point where you just kind of freaked out and you went, oh my God, this just started out as us wanting to have a little fun and seeing what we could do with this and, and look how big it's grown. Like how many, you mentioned how many stores you were in and how many trucks and all that kind of thing. It went from just you and Natasha to. I mean, now we have, I think 70 employees in three states. And that's just wild. Yeah. It, it really, I think started to hit us when we started opening. It's kind of funny. It's such a marathon and a sprint at the same time. You sort of look back and we're like, how did we do all, all this? And for us, we were, it was just so tunnel vision, like, just do it. Like, here are the goals, like open up New York, open up Miami, like get into more stores. And it started really to, you know, hit us when it, you know, I don't know, part of when shit hits the fan, you know, when you're like, oh my God, we're losing money. You know, in those expansion years, we were just bleeding through money and it was super stressful. And then you're like, oh my gosh, you know, at that time, like 40 or 50 people are depending on their livelihoods on us. Like we have to course correct. We have to fix this and make it happen. So I think that's when it became real when it's not just an art project anymore. There's so many questions I want to ask. Thank you. And I think that entrepreneurs can, can learn from you. You've got a partner. So that's a, that's always a big thing that, you know, how do you, how do you deal with a partner, you know? For, yeah, first of all, whenever, you know, entrepreneurs starting out, I was like, what's a piece of advice, you know, you can give me, I'm like, get a business partner. It is so hard to go it alone. And with Natasha's case, we're married to each other. So that's even a whole different, you know, Right. slew of things to deal with. You know, I think being, you know, dating each other in the beginning was actually awesome because it accelerated so much. Like we were able to talk about Cool House 24-7. All the time, which then four years later became its detriment. We were like, okay, I think, you know, Natasha, you're the CEO. You can continue on. I was COO, CFO. We can hire talent to fill my role. I think it's time for me to sort of step away just for the sake of our business. Yeah. And what not. And also for the sake of the company. Like I think it's, you know, there's a time and a place, but definitely find a business partner that that's your yin and yang. She brought branding, marketing, sales, product development. I brought operations, finance systems, you know, to the picture. So we were able to complement each other. Were you very clear on what you were each contributing from the very beginning? Oh, absolutely. Or did it just... Become clear as you continued to work together? It became very clear from the beginning when we were doing Coachella. And I was like, why isn't she freaking out about how we're going to get all this done? I was like, okay, so I'm doing operations. All right. Got it. Yeah. She's only concerned on the signage. All right. The creative aspect. Yeah. Well, it's, yeah, it's, it's great that you all have that. So, so then how did you, what, how did this naturally just evolve? And, and into what you've developed now? And I also want to talk about even with Cool House, where you said people said, oh, this isn't going to work. And so you seem like the kind of girl who says, if somebody tells me it's not going to work, I'm going to damn sure prove how it can. Yeah. You know, you know, to answer your first question about how did this naturally evolve? You know, it definitely taking on more, you know, taking on the investors and getting an advantage. And I think that's a really good question. I think that's a really good question. I think that taking that advisory board together really helped laser focus our vision and be able to hire talent around us, you know, with that, with those investment funds. So like, you know, there are a lot of people like, oh, I don't want to take on a partner. I don't want to take on money. It's like, okay, well, or maybe they're just looking for money. Money is pretty easy to get these days. There's a lot of money floating around for startups. You really need to get the brains and, and have someone who's valuable. And I think that's a really good question. you add. It brings meat to the table. You know, getting told no, you know, I feel like if you're going to be a pioneer and push the boundaries, which I think we've done with Cool House, like the $5 gourmet ice cream sandwich, which now doesn't seem like that much, right? Back then, everyone's like, no, no way that that's not going to work. You just have to, you have to be the pioneer and push the envelope. And actually right now, what's happening, the trend is all these supermarkets like Avon's or Ralph's or Winn-Dixie or Smart and Final are starting to look at us and carry us because they're creating their own natural premium segment in each of their categories. So now we don't, we're not the pioneer. We're the top seller because of the timing, because we pushed that envelope. They have three years of data to be like, okay, we're doing our own thing. We're not the pioneer. We're the top seller because of the timing. They have three years of data to be like, okay, we're the top seller because of the timing. We're the top seller our resets. That's the top selling ice cream sandwich. Put it in. Yeah. And do you, when you priced your ice cream, I mean, that was pretty gutsy. So when you priced that, did you look at say, well, Starbucks is charging this for their cup of coffee or did you, was it just because you ran the numbers and said, we have to charge this? Yeah. Or a little of both? It's both. So because we're using all natural ingredients, premium ingredients, and for example, our dirty mint chocolate, we're going to be charging this for our coffee. And so we're going to be charging this for our coffee. has actual mint leaves in it. Our bacon ice cream has actual candied bacon in it. It was just more expensive, the cost of goods. So we had to take that into consideration. Also, we're building a premium brand. You know, I think brands take off or survive a little more if you start high. It's always easier to start high and then drop your price than to start low and then raise your price. Even though we did start low, we actually, in the beginning, our ice cream sandwiches were $3.50. And we were told like, look, you can charge much higher, just start higher. You know, someone gave us that advice. We're like, okay, and just started raising it. At five bucks now, it seems like the right price. Also taking into consideration production costs. So $3.50 was too cheap for what we were. Yeah, we didn't really understand margin. Yeah, exactly. Great. So then you were able to recognize that and- And, you know, say this is what it cost us, but also this is how we want to establish our brand. And we don't want to be that cheap ice cream. Exactly. We want people to recognize exactly what we're doing with our brand by putting in these premium ingredients and everything. Absolutely. So now how did the cocktail jello shots, jelly shots come about? So when I, you know, last April, when Natasha and I were having this conversation about like, okay, your CEO go on, I think I'm going to step down. We'll hire talent to replace me. I had some time to reflect because I was like, all right, I have some time here. It doesn't mean I want to just quit and go eat bonbons and read a book. Although I think I did do that. I binge watched on Netflix for like a month because I just was so burnt. I was a little burned out. I was like, I needed that time to just decompress. And I started talking about thinking, obviously about like, what's my next move? And I started looking, you know, job ads or reaching out to friends. And I was like, I don't know. I think I want to still be my own boss and start something new and work with a friend, another friend in New York. And cause we'd always talked about other business ideas and he's an entrepreneur too, he owns a couple of companies. So we were on Ludlow street in New York last summer talking about jello shots and how, why, aren't they gourmet or made out of cocktails? You know, we remember them from college. They were sort of made out of artificial strawberry jello packets and $8 handle vodka. They were not very good, but they were fun, you know? And then why can't you buy them pre-made? And then we Googled that and saw there were a couple of companies doing it, but their branding was not very good. And it was targeting a male demographic. And I was like, no, no, no. Women do jello shots. Like, I don't really think, like that was my thesis. I was like, I don't really think men do male jello shots. I think women do, or at least they're the ones who are going to buy them. And then the men are going to do them when the women buy them. So I started researching companies that could make the product for me and sort of putting a budget together and closed my first friends and family round of $240,000. Like a couple months later in August, I started contract negotiations with the company I was going with, the distillery, the manufacturer. And did product development for about three months where like they, you know, we sent them our samples. We were like, these are the specs. It has to be all natural. It has to be shelf stable because people want convenience. They want to like put it in their fridge and wait for it. They want to be able to consume it right away. You know, very millennial. Like we want it now on demand. Right. And it has to be made with premium spirits and real juices because that's what we value. I mean, that's what I value. I'm not going to put an artificial jello shot in my body. No way. So it took three months because we had to push them. So speaking of being a pioneer, they're like, we've never done this before. I was like, okay, but you're going to. So they'd send us back samples. We'd give them notes. We'd send the samples back, back and forth. And then we went through the federal approval process, which took six months. I was going to say, now that's a whole different ball game when you're talking about using alcohol. So yeah, it's highly regulated. You had a lot of hurdles to jump over. Yeah, as opposed to ice cream, you create an ice cream product, you get the packaging out, you get your SKU and that's that. There's no other approval process. So it was a huge waning game. And throughout this time, January to now, we've just been doing pre-launch because we wanted to sort of build the movement of and the vibe and get people engaged and on board with the concept of a craft cocktail, all natural gourmet jello shot, which is very highbrow, lowbrow people. So, you know, it's kind of a tough concept especially for some of these buyers to wrap their heads around. But what was awesome is all the positive feedback we got. We did these shows like the Golden State of Cocktails in LA, Manhattan Cocktail Classic, the Wine and Spirits Wholesaler Show of America, industry shows, and we got such amazing press and feedback from people. We were like, okay, we're on the right track. We're on the right track. And in the meantime, also doing catering. We did a couple of Mindy Weiss events, you know, like some birthday parties, some deliveries, like just getting people really comfortable with that idea. Yeah. Well, I think you're very focused on who your target market is, which is so important for an entrepreneur. Yeah. And obviously, you know, but for our audience who might be listening. And yet that doesn't mean that others outside your target market won't come around. So when you focus on that one segment, it's going to, it's going to start spreading. Yeah. It's like an octopus. Yeah, totally. It'll go out here. And for someone like me, who doesn't drink Jell-O shots, that doesn't mean I wouldn't. Because, hey, you have some really cool, cute names on them. They look more inviting than something that, you know, my daughters would have made when they were in college, or maybe even are making now. Yeah. And just thinking about the premium alcohol that you have in them as, and then I'm sure from your first experience about packaging, you probably really learned from that experience to say, okay, we've really got to make this packaging rock. Yeah, definitely. So I think, I don't know if I have a picture of the packaging or we can pull it up online, but it definitely is color coded, you know? So all the flavors are like the old fashioned is orange, you know, like the Hex package, the box and the foil lid is like this glittery, you know, orange. Yeah, they look cool. The Meyer lemon drop is this cool yellow, the planner's punch is this cool pink. So really making sure people can differentiate and also launching with five SKUs. Like we're now getting POs from retailers. And if I had just launched two, I'd be only getting orders for two cases. I'm getting orders for all five cases. So that just, you know, just thinking about business models and whatnot, you know, tripled or whatever, you know, I've done it times five for like the potential revenue of just doing one SKU. Yeah. I want to remind our listeners that if they want to call in and ask you a question, I feel like I'm dominating this whole thing. 1-800-893-9562. You can call in and talk to Freya about anything you want to talk about business related or maybe anything else. Or cocktails or ice cream. Or cocktails. Whatever. Give us a call. So let's talk about how you, did you hire a PR person for either Coolhaus or the Ludlow's cocktails? In the beginning, no. Well, we had a very, very part time PR person in the beginning for Coolhaus. Like we're talking like 500 bucks a month. That's nothing. She did an awesome job. And then, and then we thought, okay, we're sort of good at this. We can sort of do it on our own. But this year we also came out with our cookbook and we really wanted to make sure that it was a success. And we had met, you know, Alexander Ali. He is our PR guy now. He owns the society group. We met him through friends of friends and he specifically focuses on book PR. So we hired him on to do that. And also our general PR. And he's been amazing. It's been like, we've had him on since I think January. And it's just been an explosion of press. Like it made us realize like, oh, that's why you hire a PR person or a good, you know, that's when you know he's a good PR person because he's making opportunities happen that are actually also bringing us money. Yeah. Now is your cookbook more about the ice cream? Is it more about the cocktails or is it a little of both? Or is it something entirely different? It's strictly Coolhaus, cookies and ice cream. How to make, you know, crazy awesome ice cream sandwich. People ask that all the time. I'm like, it's a steak and martini book. I'm like, no, it's cookies and ice cream. That's great. Yeah. No, that's awesome. I didn't know that you all had done that. I didn't realize that. So that's incredible. And that just reaches a whole nother market. Totally. We're sold in, you know, Urban Outfitters, Sur La Table, William Sonoma, Amazon, wherever fine books. Wherever books are sold. Yeah. Fine books are sold. That's right. And also, I mean, Amazon is the typical place that you might think of for a book or a bookstore or whatever, but being sold in some of those where again, you're reaching your target audience like Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie. Yeah. We love sort of those alternative angles. Like we're even at Coolhaus, ice cream sandwiches themselves are sold at five Urban Outfitters. We have Urban Outfitters in Southern California. Oh, really? Yeah. That's incredible. Well, that's really thinking outside the box too. Totally. Because you're not expecting to go into Urban Outfitters and getting an ice cream. Yeah. And actually they, you know, in the beginning when we launched there, you know, they have their like whatever monthly executive meeting and they're looking at all like the numbers. And one of the executives was like, wait, what's that? Circled Coolhaus. Because we had sold so many, you know, think about like a $5 product for a month. So, you know, it's like a $5 product versus a $100 shirt. Probably gonna sell more of that, you know, more of that $5 product. But that's why it works because you're checking out and you're like, oh, I just did shopping and that looks good and it's only $5. And I deserve it. And I just spent $400. So who cares? Like I'm gonna spend five. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which also goes back to, and just even looking at that setting where a $5 ice cream might seem like a lot in say a 7-Eleven or something. But that's not where, not that it couldn't be sold there, but that's not really where you're focusing your efforts. And, and, and, and $5, yes, I just spent $400. Five is nothing. Nothing. Yeah. That's a cough drop. That's a, that's a, that's a parking. Yeah. It's not even. That's not even a parking. Yeah, no. Right. So, tell us what, let's talk about some of the things that you're doing too and, and how you're having to get creative. Yeah. In terms of the distribution for your, your Ludlow cocktails. Yeah. So the whole with, with liquor, with distilled spirits, it's a three-tier system. So meaning there's a producer, a distributor and a retailer. You can't be, you can only be one. So I, my customer is not only the retailer, it's, it's, well, it's really the distributor. So getting distribution. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, helping us out. Like I do distributor write-alongs every week with my distributor, where like I'm going in, pitching it, and he's just taking the order. And that's awesome because typically distributors, they have a book of thousands of products and you're just, you know, one of, you know, one of a thousand skews. Why are they going to focus on your product? So I wanted to start small in the beginning, get into those key accounts. So, you know, now we have, we brought on retailers like K&L Wines, High Time Wine Cellars in Orange County, John and Pete's in West Hollywood, Melrose Wine and Spirits, and even, you know, chains like Total Wine and More and Knock on Wood, we have a meeting with Fresh and Easy at the end of this week. So really targeting, you know, big chains, but also small to see, you know, for the very targeted Southern California, California launch. In the meantime, we're working on just getting to start a new chain. So we're working on getting to start a new chain. So we're working on in New York, which has proved a little bit more difficult, but Ethan, our business partner in New York is spearheading that and hopefully we'll get distribution in the next month or two. Do you have to do this in each state? Yes. Yeah. I mean, you'll find distributors, for example, like Young's and Southern Wine and Spirits, those are like the two big, big players. They distribute, like Southern, I think distributes in almost every state. So if you get in with them, you can start to unlock the chain. So, you know, we're working on getting distribution centers with them. Same, same with Young's. Well, that's really creative that you are writing along with them and you're helping to go in because everybody really wants to know that story. And when they see it, it gives them a reason to see your product versus all of the other products. Tell me about what you had our share with our audience, what you and I had talked about earlier today about how you opened a door that originally was closed. Yeah. So, there's, I'll just say it, Wally's Wine and Spirits in Westwood. Like I was targeting them as a launch retailer. The spirits buyer there, great guy, said, you know what? Like, and these are his words, my owner will castrate me if I bring anything that's remotely collegiate sounding or looking, right? Like a jello shot. And I was like, okay. And, you know, I was kind of bummed, but then immediately thought, well, who are the owners? I looked it up and I was like, okay, there's one guy, I forget his name now, but also the guest brothers, the Marciano brothers who started guests also are now owners of Wally's Wine and Spirits. I'm like, okay, maybe I can go that angle because I can totally see this at like fashion events. And we've already done fashion events with the jelly shots. But the buyer said, you know, I also passed it along to the special events department. And I was like, that's perfect. So, we have a meeting. We have a meeting with them today to talk about it. And so, that could be one angle on how we get Wally's as a partner, as a retailer partner. So, the lesson here is that just because one door closes and someone says no, no doesn't mean no. For me, no means, you know, when the buyer says to me or even the owner, like, please stop calling me. And I've never had anyone say that to me. Well, in that case, I'll send you a letter. Yeah. Or a box of jelly shots. And then I know you'll be calling me later. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You just can't take it. You just can't take it personally. It's not personal. Right. And that's what I think is so important for people to know is that no doesn't really necessarily mean no. It just means that you haven't presented it to them in ways that they can envision incorporating it into their business or bringing it into their home or whatever it is. Yeah. That you've got. Yeah. You know, to get creative. And it's not an annoying thing. I mean, there's annoying. Yeah. And then there's just being creative. And really, you're helping to solve a problem for them because ultimately, they want to make money. Exactly. And they want a cool product, you know. And, you know, I'm in sales mode right now. So, there are tons of buyers that I'm trying to chase down. I call, I email. They won't respond. They won't call me back. And you know, I'm trying to chase down a lot of buyers. And I'm trying to chase down a lot of buyers. And you know, I'm trying to chase down a lot of buyers. And you know, I'm you just have to think, okay, I just need to get them on the phone. I need to see them in person because you know what? They get, they are treated that way all the time in terms of people calling and emailing them. That is their norm. So, literally, I think they just wait till someone is really that, you know, dedicated and aggressive to get it in front of them. They'll be like, okay, well, at least they, if they can do that and get a meeting with me, then maybe they are serious about the product and marketing it and doing demos and marketing it. And whatnot. You just can't give up. Yeah. No, you can't give up. Never give up and never give in. Keep going. So, what, do you have a motto? I would say in terms of product development and startups, action, not perfection. You just have to get it out there. You can get stuck in analysis paralysis. Right. And then spend so much time doing that that you don't even get the product out there and get the feedback that you need. Right. And then spend so much time doing that to adjust. So, like another, you know, saying we've sort of adopted from the Lean Startup, that book. I like that book. Yeah. It's build, measure, learn. Like build it, put it out there, measure, get the feedback, learn from it, adjust, you know? And I think also, I don't know, my sort of platform for this year has been female entrepreneurship. I've actually been asking a lot of people, you know, I've been asking a lot of people, you know, a lot of friends, hey, how many female entrepreneurs do you know that have raised money for their small business or startup? Usually the answer is no one. But they'll be like, well, no one besides you guys. I'm like, okay, like there has to be more. And then I ask, well, how many men do you know that have done it? And they can at least name one or two. And so, we're trying to just sort of figure out like, why is that? Why don't women go out and try to raise money for their ventures? Why don't they go out and try to raise money for their ventures? Why don't they go out and try to raise money for their ventures? Why don't they go out and try to raise because what they'll usually do is use their own money. Or just really talk to friends and family. And then when that ends, they don't go any farther. Yeah. And we're so, or women, you know, sort of making a huge generalization here, but this is just from my, like anecdotally, like asking all my friends, like, yeah, well, I wanted to prove the concept first. And I'm like, no, like you're giving people an opportunity to invest in a really cool company and make lots of money at the get go. Like that, that, that's what our, you know, your, your philosophy is. Yeah. That's what we, that's, that's just a starting point, which is, which it should be. If you're, if you're doing this and you're investing your time and your money into this product or this service, whatever it is, you need to believe in it wholeheartedly. You need to own it. Yeah. And so our whole thing, you know, this year I'll be, I've been very, really focused on helping other women. And I've been really focused on helping other female entrepreneurs. And I've been really focused on helping other entrepreneurs. So like, I will take phone calls. I will get on calls with other entrepreneurs and just be like, okay, like this, let me see your deck. Let me see your performa, like what's going on. How can, how can I help you? How can I connect you? And, and also then they connect me with other people that are, that are helpful for Ludlow's or Coolhouse. So yeah. And it's just about, I think just us working together. Well, I really love that because I think that sometimes women get that, and again, I'm generalizing a little bit, but they get that, that they're not willing to help each other. Yeah. They're very, I think that's the opposite. And I, and the work that I do with entrepreneurial women, I find that they're incredibly giving. And in fact, almost to the point of giving more, um, that might, might make their own business or ideas suffer because it's in a way it's, it's kind of easier to give than it is to receive. Yeah. And, and so, uh, I think that's really wonderful that you've kind of found a, uh, something that you utilizing, using your expertise to be able to help other women entrepreneurs, uh, achieve success as well. So right now you're really involved in launching this, but do you also think about the future and where this might go? I mean, did you go ahead and incorporate that all into your business plan? If you wrote one, uh, some people do, some people don't, some of them are on a napkin, some of them are 80 page books that are in a drawer that are never seen. Yeah. Um, I think the goal with Ludlow's cocktail company is that it is a brand that is doing, is creating fun, innovative, spirited, all natural products. So the Jell-O shots is just a way, a cool, splashy niche that we can dominate way to get our name out there. And then next will be bottled or boxed spirits or, or cocktails. And then the exit is to obviously a Diageo or Pernod Ricard or some big alcohol conglomerate who can easily plug in their spirits into our products. Um, and speaking of business plans, you know, I did not write a, even a 20 page business plan. I had a five page PDF deck and a five or six tab Excel spreadsheet. And yes, it was, it was probably a little easier for me to raise friends and that friends and family around in the beginning because of my experience with Coolhouse and having raised money for like, I've probably raised 1.3 million for Coolhouse and now for this, you know, 240. So I have experience in, in, in doing that, but it's not, you know, the other thing I'm trying to tell people is like, it's not that hard. You don't have to write like a 30 page business plan. Well, what this really speaks to though, is that they're investing in you. Yes. And they're not, I mean, obviously the idea, um, but they're investing in you and they've already seen what you can do that you, and you've got a winning formula. I mean, there's no reason to go out there and reinvent the wheel. Yeah. You've, you've definitely are learning new things with this, like having to deal with the, uh, you know, the alcohol, uh, aspect of it and the rules and regulations that, uh, that go along with all of that. But, but there is a formula and you've, you've perfected that and you're, you're not afraid to take risk. And, and although there may be some, there may be some, there may be some, there may be some, there may be some, there may be somewhat calculated or you're not going to go out and, and blow that one point, whatever million that you raised. Uh, you're going to think about it very carefully, but, but you're also willing to, to take chances and, and, and think outside the box and be creative. And, and you do bootstrap. Yeah. Very creatively bootstrap, but bootstrap nonetheless, and not just rely on, on hurrying other people, but you also recognize that it's very, very important to have talent around you, um, that you can't do it all. And I think that's one place that women entrepreneurs suffer a lot too, is they feel like, oh, I, you know, I've got to do it all and I've, it's gotta be perfect. And I can't ask anybody for help and, and almost being afraid to hire someone who, who may be smarter than them, you know, and you seem to have broken all of those rules or, or, or recognized how important it is, which ultimately will lead to success. Yeah. So. Yeah. I think I definitely believe in, you know, the lean, starting lean. Yeah. Raise the money. Don't, I mean, obviously I put in some money, but it's also, like you said, our time, all of our time is very valuable and I'm working on it full time. Um, but I definitely, yeah, recommend raise money, use other people's money. It's an opportunity for them also. And you can do it lean. Yeah. You don't have to, especially right off the bat, hire all these people. And that's the beauty of the, of the wholesale distribution model is that you don't, yeah, is that you don't have to, but once you get to that point, you're hiring salespeople, marketing people or slash brand ambassadors. And that's, and that's it versus you're starting a, uh, you know, a chain restaurant group or whatnot. And that, that requires a lot more overhead and a bigger raise. And that's great. You're creating jobs for me. I was like, I just want something small. I want to be accountable to myself for a little bit. Well, don't be so awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but no, I, I, um, definitely didn't mean go out and hire a whole crew to, to do everything. You definitely have to start there, but at some point when you're wanting to grow your business and you, like you all started expanding rather quickly and you had to recognize that we can't keep making these ice cream sandwiches. Yeah. You know, or sometimes that you have to spend money. Like, uh, sometimes people might get stuck in the fact that, well, we, we paid a lot of money for this original packaging, but yet recognizing where are the holes, where's this not working. And then being willing to invest that money in, in something that, uh, you know, really take a look at it and redesigning the packaging and, and look what it did for you. So just being able to look at all of those aspects of the business. Yeah. And I think too, when you, that something that resonated with me, when you said we wanted to work in our business or, or, or on our business, not in our business. And that's important too, to at some point when you first start, obviously you're in the business. There's because it's you, you know, and for you and Natasha, it was just the two of you when you first started, but at some point you have to be able to go beyond that so that you're not constantly doing all of that. Yeah. and all of the end stuff and being able to look at it from kind of an outside view and working on it and constantly innovating and improving and redirecting if that's what it calls for. So those are such, uh, such important advice that you've, you've shared today of, and in so many different ways. And, and I, I'm so fascinated just by the whole creativity aspect of it as well. And, and the fact that you're able to also, uh, take a look at your, your first success and not, not just sometimes my, oh, I don't want to rock the boat or, or what if I, what if I try something else and it doesn't work? You know, that, that can definitely happen, but you just have, it's like a numbers game, you know, you just put, do what you can and some will hit and some won't. I mean, that's how, you know, private equity funds work, right? Yeah. Just investing in, in what you think is going to hit and some will and some won't and that's okay. And so I, I just want to, uh, we don't have too many more minutes here, but, um, I was also curious about the point where you left your job. You said, we've got something big and sort of what motive, I mean, now you've got 70 employees plus, you know, because now you've got the, the Ludlow's too, but, um, you've, so obviously you've got to show up every day, you know, but in, in the beginning when it was just the two of you and, and you're like, we've got something, but keeping going and motivating yourself and, and, and maybe that's helpful because you had a business partner, so you couldn't just kind of get scared and let that stop you. Yeah. And in the beginning, you know, Natasha started working on Cool House pretty much immediately full time, but because of, and this is where I love constraints, constraints make you make decisions, which is, they just help you act. So she, uh, was let go from her job. Like she was working for the, she was, she was a, an imagineer. Yeah. Let go is the recession. And then I was working for this trade show and then it, the trade show happened and then it was done. So she was like, I guess I'm working on it full time. We didn't even do the numbers of like, well, can it support you? We were like, okay, well, I, I kept my job for two years. So I basically had my job and then at night and on the weekends would work. On Cool House. That point being 26, 27, I definitely had the energy to do that. Yeah. I don't know about anymore. I mean, I'm still sort of in it, but, uh, but yeah, I think that's when, I don't know, just speaking of constraints, like I, that's, it helps you make decisions. Yeah. And sometimes, I mean, you hear a lot of people say that the best time to start a business is during a recession or, you know, I started this because I lost my job and I didn't know what else to do. I didn't know what else to do. So, um, how do you, because you do do this 24 seven, we've got like five seconds, I guess. I don't even know. I was going to ask you, what do you do to unwind, unplug? But, um, I just want to say thank you so very, very much for being a part of our show and sharing your expertise and, and, uh, your knowledge and your humor and your, uh, your cocktail advice and your ice cream advice and everything else with us. It's been really incredibly great. Thank you. Thank you for having me. My pleasure. I got the eye of the tiger dancing through the fire and you're gonna hear me roar