Prostitution, sex work, and legalization debate

Hi, good evening. Sorry. It's okay. How are you, my darling? I am good. How are you? I'm terrific. I'm terrific. Hi, everybody. Thanks for joining us. This is Sex and Dippity. I'm Dr. Limor Blockman. And I'm Luanne Hernandez. How is everything? How was your week? Oh, my weekend was wonderful. We celebrated Valentine's Day because I'm going to... You do everything pre-time. I know. We do things. We're not on schedule for anything. We're ahead of time. We're behind time. It's amazing. I know. He took me to a concert last night. For Garth Brooks. I mean, not Garth Brooks. Oh, my God. George Strait. Totally different. That's terrible. Yes. I know. Like, I would know. Whatever the story was. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So, it was just very thoughtful because he knows what a huge country music fan I am. And so... Yeah, which I always find very interesting. It's very odd. It's okay. It's one of my many interesting qualities. Yes, it is indeed. Yes. So, tonight, I'll get to our special guest. I want to start and open our show. Do you want to tell us what we're going to talk about? We are going to talk about prostitution. Woo-woo. Yes. The oldest profession. I mean, it's a fascinating topic because I find the whole idea about prostitution and prostitutes in general fascinating because it's so eclectic and it's so different from one state to another. I'm not talking about the United States, of course. Mm-hmm. Where? It's a wiggle. But we're going to get into it and everything. But maybe we should start with our number and just... Oh, yes. If you'd like to give us a call and give your input, our number is 1-800-893-9562. Or you could email us at drlamore.com. Go to contact us. Very good. Very good. And please download and subscribe to us on iTunes. You must. Type in sexindipity. Just like sex. Serendipity, but with an X instead of an R. This was just fascinating and wonderful. You do it so well. Thank you. So I want to start and say that... And I want to hear your opinion about the oldest profession. But I want to start and say that to me, and a lot of theorists will agree, that the sex worker is really like just any, you know, general worker. But I believe that in a society where it's illegal, especially like here in the States, it's viewed as something that must be titled... In other words, to stop a woman from asking and getting a sort of pay that she's interested in, is to title her a bad girl or someone that is doing something immoral. Do you agree? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, people look at prostitutes like they're dirty and gross. Right. So this is probably a way, and we'll get to the whole dividing of how is it looked at in a capitalist society versus socialists and other things. But the thing is, is it really... How do you feel about prostitution? Should it be legalized? Should it be legitimized? Is this something that will always take place? How do you feel about it as a phenomenon? Well, I do think that... It needs to be legalized. And I do think that it needs to be regulated. And I think specifically because working with a lot of young women, especially as awful as this is, women that are at risk are usually in foster care or have substance abuse problems. The ones that I work with outside of here, I see a lot of the girls that I've worked with in the past become sex workers, not because they necessarily are wanting to, but because they are brought into it. Or pushed into it. And that I feel is wrong. And I think that if there was more regulation, if there were more regulations and control over it, that it would still happen, but maybe not as often. And there would be some sort of protection for them. I agree. I agree. I fully agree. I just want to make note of something that is interesting. Because in patriarchal society, it's interesting. The other foundational contract that the patriarchal society, pushes is marriage. You know, versus prostitution. And... Well, I'm not sure if it's versus... Not versus. Yes, it's kind of in a continuance. Yes, you're going to become my personal prostitute. You get married and you become a whore. Yes, please become my whore. In sickness and in health. But the thing is, what I'm trying to say is that, that other contract between a man and a woman is being put on a pedestal. Comparing to prostitution that is so, you know, looked at so terribly. But there are just two aspects of the patriarchal society, which is kind of ridiculous that every woman, at least in the media, is her goal and dream is to get married and to be someone's wife. We're not going to go over how I feel about this whole thing. But yeah, I mean, one institute in the society is so, you know, glorified. And the other one, is so demeaning and so bad and so looked at as something terrible and sick in society, which is an interesting thing because it's kind of representative of how judgmental and how, you know, hypocritical society is. And I want to bring an analysis by Deborah Satz, who is a researcher in this field. And she said that, there is a difference that before we ask how do women get into prostitution or why, we need to kind of divide things into specific aspects of prostitution. And she makes a point, which we kind of mentioned in our earlier visit to a show, a wonderful show that we visited today. We should mention that in a few minutes. But what she said is that there is a major difference between, I don't know, the black addict or the Park Avenue call girl or, I don't know, the man that sells sex to other men, which I'm going to get to because that is a completely divided, a different, you know, separated aspect of prostitution, which we hardly ever relate to. I mean, mostly when we think of prostitutes, we think of women, just, you know, fallen women that became this, this thing. But do you agree that one is different from the other and you can't really judge all in the same pot? Oh, absolutely. You know, like I think of some of the girls that I've worked with in the past who either have substance abuse problems or who have viewed themselves of having no options. I see those women as very different than the women that I've seen who are high-end escorts. And when... How are they different? Um... Other than the substance abuse? And the exploitation that usually occurs. That's basically the significant difference. Okay. Is where it seems like, especially the young girls who are, who maybe have the substance abuse problem or who are, like I just said, young girls, they tend to be exploited. And so to me, you know, that's also one of the reasons why I don't like going to strip clubs. No, I'm just kidding. I don't like it. You don't like it? I was like, oh, that's my point. I'm just kidding. But, like, no, it's like, you know, that's, that's, that's sometimes a good portion. The exploitation. Yes, it's the exploitation aspect that I think plays a huge role in that and that I don't, you know, that I think is the major difference. And, you know, it's the high-end escorts that I know have kind of owned it and taken it and made it into something that's their own. Okay. You know, but the ones that I know that are young girls that, you know, start off at like 13, 14. So it's a matter of age as well when you enter that world. That's what you're saying? I think that. And I think just also like the way you look at it at different ends, you know, I think, I don't think those young girls are looking at it as something positive. Of a way to make money. Yeah. And they're looking at it as survival. Yeah. You know, and that's very different. You're very right. I agree. And I want to mention because we're going to go into the whole sex industry and sex work in other countries where it's either legalized or, you know, other forms of legalization. And Lenore Menderson is also a theorist in this field. And she speaks about sex work in Thailand. And she, which is where it's very common, you know, it's illegal. I have to mention that it is illegal. Specifically by law, it's not, it's prohibited, but it's highly, you know, just overlooked and regulated even in some places. And it's very common and everybody knows it takes place. But under law, it's illegal. And she says something very interesting that I tend to agree with. She said that for women, the commercial sex work there in Thailand or in these countries where it's very common is a manner of fulfilling a woman's obligations. Right. Right. Right. Right. And towards her family. I mean, she needs to care for her young or for her elders. And this is how she chooses because this is the best income she can find because it's different currency and a lot of tourists that spend that money. And so it's just a matter of the best way for her to bring food and to bring money into the family. And it's not necessarily anything, you know, the aspect of the fact that it's sex work is just random. It has nothing to do. And she uses her body as a product that just allows and enables it. And she doesn't really look at it as, you know, as a tool to bring that income to the family. And not as anything that is, you know, immoral or a problem. And it really doesn't, what Lenore Menderson claims is that she doesn't look at it as an aspect of herself, of the self. Right. Right. Right. It's not, it's not representative of her persona. Right. Well, I think you kind of touched on that too when we were talking about women who are strippers who are also students. Right. And how, you know, that other identification of being a student or being a mother and a provider. Yes. That can save your, your sense of self and your dignity when you're doing sex work, I think. And that's one of the reasons, I think that's tapping into that psychological element that's taking place. That's not seeing it in a, in a way that's not a good way. Right. Right. Right. And not seeing it in a negative way, the way I think a lot of women can, which is why I think that also is part of the element that we were describing of the difference between the Park Avenue escort versus the crack user. Yeah, I agree. But what she was saying, Menderson was saying is that the woman herself is not in search of any other identity. She feels perfectly fine with the fact that she's doing sex work because to her it's work. But that's what I mean. And she doesn't really, you know, she, she has no interest in justifying, you know, justifying her work. But it's, it's what she's, what that kind of also taps into the way you're describing it is like her role as a provider. Right. And that's what I'm saying. Like that's the element. She could be a salesperson or a prostitute. It doesn't really matter because this brings more money. Right. And so this is what she chooses to do. I mean, and what she was trying to mention or, you know, specify is that because it's in a different society where it's less judgmental and nobody really looks down at it. It's fine. She doesn't need a different identity. She doesn't need to be a student and a stripper. She doesn't need to have. Well, I think that's actually, I'm wondering if that's actually true because it sounds like she's seeing it as a provider. Yes, it is true. It is true. And from a personal view of things, I have to say that I visited Thailand a few years ago, many years ago actually. And I really was, was a voyeur there. I mean, it was fascinating because sex work, sex work is really very prevalent, very common, very, very common. And I think that's what she's trying to do. Right. She's trying to be everywhere in every corner and everyone is doing it. And the thing is really they don't take any insult in it's not to middle. I'm not even going into into the market of of ladyboys and the whole, you know, market of men selling sex to men because I want to get to it later on. But it is really interesting to the different views. And again, that are very cultural when it comes to it, because in this country, and to the capitalism versus socialism, it's so viewed as something so terrible and so immoral that a woman doing it has to kind of justify it to herself and obviously to other people. But you can't be like a proud prostitute in a manner. Here in the US? Yes, yes. Well, I think that's why they call them escorts. Like they need a totally different name. They need a whole different name that cannot be called a prostitute. Yeah, and still, you know, high and cold girl. None of them are sitting with us. And that's an example of how this work has to be discreet and nobody can come out with it. Right. And it's kind of shameful still to the woman, unfortunately. I just, I came across something that made me laugh because going through the whole prostitution in the Far East and stuff, I came across a little anecdote from China where, you know, when the law, the laws of emigration to other countries were kind of less intense there, a lot of women find themselves because, you know, other locations like Taiwan or, you know, these countries, these areas around are more positive in terms of work and, you know, it's very prosperous. Economics is very, it's better there. So a lot of Chinese women find themselves wandering into these areas and there's a term for these women, they call it Dalume. And the Dalume, I just have to bring it because it made me laugh. Most of them are prostitutes but they disguise their, they hide their income, the way of making money by pretending to be, first of all, natives. They pretend to be from there and not from China. And they make most of their money as a singer, waitress, bar hostess or beautician. And to me, it kind of sounded, like it could take place here in Los Angeles. What? No. No. You don't get happy endings here. You don't pretend to be a bar hostess or singer. And you're actually a prostitute. Yeah. So that made me laugh. But it was kind of funny, the Dalume, that's a term there. And there was another term that is very common but I liked specifically the Brazilian term for it which is, I have to say it correctly, prostiturismo. Prostiturismo. Prostiturismo. Prostiturismo. Prostiturismo. What does it mean? It sounds like tourism or prostitution put together. Exactly. Sex tourism. Yes. In Brazil. So isn't it cute? Prostiturismo? It's adorable. I know. Yeah. Every time I think of sex tourism, all I envision is pedophiles. So let's... Well, no, it's not true at all. No, I know. But I'm just saying, like because in other countries, you know. Yeah. Well, in some countries, it's included. And I'll keep going back to Thailand because it's such a common thing that is taking place there. But Chris Ryan, who is a writer and analysis of tourism and the socialist part of it, is writing that, yeah, it could be, you know, they could be exposed to exploitation and everything that we discussed it, that we spoke about before. Because a lot of tourists are coming with that view of things. But he said that, and that resembles a lot of what I mentioned earlier. He said that, again, that the West, sex tourism kind of represents the Western view versus the Eastern view. The tourist view versus the Thai woman that provides the service. And she, you know, he sees her as, he sees sex trade as a way to fulfill his fantasies or, you know, to fill some hole that he has in himself or whatever. And she sees her work as a way to support her family. Exactly. Again, it has nothing to do with what he wants out of her. I mean, to her it's just going to work. Yeah. It has to do with being a good mom if she has children and getting her job done. The same way it would be if you were being, if you were a clerical, clerical person. Yeah. You know, or being a good daughter to provide for her grandparents or her parents. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well, I do think that the Western view of things when it comes to sex tourism as well is very judgmental and very, very pro male dominance. And it kind of gears towards, you know, that satisfaction that a man can get out of abusing a woman in a manner. You know, seeing a prostitute as someone I can abuse, I can take advantage of, I can do whatever I want. And I was kind of appalled to even see a few ads that advertise sex tourism in Thailand and the Far East in general. And they used very explicit wording and, you know, the message was in general, and I have to like kind of be specific about it. They said, it was of course geared towards men only. And it said, you know, come and find our wonderful women because Thai women are the real women because they're submissive. Unlike these North American bitches, you know, that demanding cunts that really, you know, just are after your money and they're not interested in servicing you. You know? Well, that also kind of plays into the exoticism of Eastern women in general. Well, the whole thing about that ad was advertising exotic stuff. No, no, no, no. Exoticism is when you kind of view Asian women as being submissive and Northern European women or just Northern and Western women as being dominant or independent. Which is true. I mean, obviously, yeah, obviously the prostitutes in the United States are much less, you know, giving. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just a kind of view of things. But the thing is to really advertise even sex tourism this way. What do you really expect to, you know, come out of it? Right. Well, it is also, you know, a very racist thing to do in the sense that they're, the way it's portrayed. You know, it's like I said, it's the, like I was explaining, it's the exoticism as well. Yeah. That goes on between usually, typically, Caucasian males and minority women. Right. And they have certain elements of themselves, whether it's that Asian women are submissive and giving and all of this type of exoticism. Yeah. Basically, like it's not actually based in, well, it's based in cultural aspects. That's cool. But it's also, it's just exploiting that part of it. And I think that's also what's playing into that as well. And that's one of the things that is part of the sex tourism where it's taking advantage of women, but in a very racist way as well. Yeah. And that's why they put those elements out there. And that's also this weird, whenever I find people that are very into only one specific type of woman, whether it's an Asian woman or a black woman or a Latin woman, it's not about the actual woman like we've talked about last week. It's about this idea of what that would be like. What my perspective of that woman, of that type of woman. Right. Of that type of woman. Yes. Very true. I agree. And I want to, in a moment, I want to talk about the fact that I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman and I'm a woman Hello. Hi, I'm here. Hi, Norma Jean. How are you? Hi, I'm fine, thanks. We're so happy to have you. And, you know, without further ado, I want to let you. Yeah, just tell us. Yeah. Well, first of all, who's the other woman that we're talking to? Luanne. This is Luanne. Yes. Hi. Hi. And what is your interest in prostitution? You do outreach work or? Actually, I am a marriage and family therapist. And I currently actually I currently work with children in the foster care system, especially a lot of young girls that are at high risk of running away and substance abuse. Yeah. Yeah. And so how many actual prostitutes have you encountered in your career? Not many. Not many? No, no, no. I'm actually trying to think because I work with I worked down here and I worked in. Northern California, too. I probably say around 10. OK. Yeah. Yeah. I have long term. Sorry, I have long term clients. The reason I ask is because I hear people make such interesting observations about a very small number of people in the sex industry. I've been an activist for the last 32 years. Wow. And I'm an international activist. I started a nonprofit. Coyote is a winner. It's a wonderful organization, but it basically came out of my pocket. My pocket got empty. So I started a nonprofit. It's called the International Sex Worker Foundation for Art, Culture and Education. And I work with sex workers around the world. And in my 32 years, as you can imagine, I have met and I know personally thousands and thousands of male and female sex workers all over the world. And so my perspective, of course, is a lot different from most other people. Who? I have met a lot of people who have not encountered a great number of sex workers. Yes. And it's just always interesting to hear people talk about this whole thing of exploitation. And I'm like, you know what? You guys really don't get it. Here's the thing. Yes. When you see a client, you know, whether you're a call girl or whether you are working on the street or any of the many other areas and layers of sex work. Yes. When you leave. The client or he leaves your house or whatever. You have the money and all he has is a smile. And essentially we have exploited his male need for companionship, for intimacy and for sex. But sex is really the least part of an encounter with most clients, even though that certainly is the perception people have. Yes. And I don't care whether it's somebody that's working on the street or, as I said, as I worked as a. Call girl at the very high end, making thousands of dollars and, you know, seeing very few clients a week because I had so many other interests. And it basically subsidized my art career, my writing career and the other things that were important to me. Yes. So when I hear people talk about these works, they bandy them around and they're like, you know, taking all these terms from all the prostitution abolitionists and they're talking about the exploitation. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. In fact, I have a website called policeprostitutionandpolitics.com, and there I have spreadsheets and graphs and charts taken from the FBI's Bureau of Justice statistics. Wow. And here's the thing. For 32 years, over a 32-year period in the United States, female prostitution arrests were 1,954,426. That is incredible. Of which 35,371 were under 18. Oh. 35,000 out of a million. Yes. And that comes to 1.81%. Yeah, that's a small percentage. Of all people arrested for prostitution. And the average age of those minors was 17. Not early. There were 17,000 that were 17, and you go all the way down to, and they were arresting children under 10. And over that 32-year period, they arrested 187 people under age 10. So it's like people have this idea that it's... It's, you know, these pedophiles going after children. And it really isn't. The average age of the prostitutes who are arrested is between 25 and 30. But people are being arrested, women, sex workers, all the way up to their 60s. Yes. And I know, I'm 63. I'm not working anymore. I can't work. You know, my husband's disabled, and besides which, I spent 10 years working for the Los Angeles Police Department. Before I became a call girl. Yes. And I have a lot of physical injuries from traffic accidents that I had while I was working out there at nighttime in Hollywood. And so it's just not appropriate for me to continue to work just simply because, like an athlete, when you have all these injuries, you just don't keep working. Yes. But nevertheless, you know, during the 32 years that I've been involved in the sex industry, and I've certainly... I've been speaking at colleges and universities. And I do research. Because it's really important to me to set the record straight about who we are. Yes. And how we think and why we get into sex work. And what I like to do is I like to talk to people about, you know, it's like, okay, you think of people as being forced or exploited and all this other really nonsense. And I say that not just from my own perspective. But from knowing the facts. I know thousands of sex workers that I do around the world. And it's like, you know, if I were really being exploited, I'd be cleaning toilets for a living. Very true. Making minimum wage or less. Now that is exploitation. Absolutely. Norma Jean, I would like for you to try and really, you know, specify for us why it should be, you know, advocated. I'm sorry, why should what? Why? Why should the Constitution should be advocated and spoken about? Well, what we want is we want to see a system of decriminalization for consenting adult commercial sex. Now, when people say, well, women can't consent. You know, basically they have no choice. Well, you know what? There's an awful lot of people around the world who are forced to do some type of labor in order to be providers for their families. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you. We're having a little bit of a discussion. We're having a little bit of a discussion. We're having a little bit of technical difficulties. Yeah, but I think Jenny is working on it. Yeah. Please proceed. I'm sorry? No, no. Please proceed. I'm sorry. Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. Anyway, it's just that there's a lot of people who don't think through their position because they are so, how shall I say it? They're so brainwashed about what sex work is and how we feel about ourselves and whether or not we're. Okay. They're so brainwashed about what sex work is and how we feel about ourselves and whether or not we're. Okay. They're so brainwashed about what sex work is and how we feel about ourselves and whether or not we're. Norma Jean, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to stop you. It must be your line. Do you want to try and hang up and call us back or we'll call you back in a few minutes? Okay. Well, let me go to the computer and see if I can call you right back. Is this the 800 number? Yes. No. All right. I'll call you right back. She'll call you back. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. All right. We had a few difficulties. But fascinating, right? I mean, the fact that you're here. I mean, the facts are very interesting. That really, you know, the exploitation as we discussed. Well, I think that she's also talking from a different perspective as well. Yeah. You know, because there are, I mean, what I'm talking about is the exploitation of young girls. Yes. You know, and I think that what she's talking about. Because I mean, as far as having call girls or prostitution in general legalized, I think that's a good thing. You know, I think that's positive. And I do have an issue with legalization. A certain. Because I. I view it as a different. And I'm going to get to it. Right. But consenting adults commercial sex. It's like, you know, we just. If that's what people want to do, there's no reason to not do it. Yeah. Have a commercialized sex work. Like she's talking about. Yeah. Sex trade. Yeah. And before we're going to get her back soon, because she has a lot to say, but I want to touch the subject of male prostitution just for a few minutes. Because I know. That mostly when we talk about prostitution, this doesn't come to mind. Right. But it does exist. And it's not scarce. You know, it is there. We can find many male prostitutes. And I want to. I want to ask you. Do you think it's a different story? I mean, or how is it different? If at all. That's an interesting question. To be honest with you, I hadn't really thought as much about it just because I don't personally know that many males. No, of course. Or male prostitutes. Yeah. You don't come. Well, we don't hire them that often. But yes. And, you know, I don't know if their clientele is necessarily only men or if it's only women or if it's both. I guess we can, you know, kind of separate the gigolos from, yes, you know, the charm of the Richard Gere's of, yeah. But scientifically, when it's empirically analyzed. It said that. From what you see, most male prostitutes are offering services to men mostly because the market shows that women don't purchase sex that often. What? Yes. Unbelievable. Isn't it? And it's unfortunate. We should. But yeah, I'll take her in just a minute. Yeah. So they don't. They usually offer sex work to men. And most of them kind of justified. And because we have Norma Jean on the line, so I'm just going to cut it short. But I just want to say that most of them justified this phenomenon by saying that, no, no, we're not really prostitutes. We're just hustlers. And we're just, you know, like to get in there. And a lot of them, it's a cover up for them to be able to avoid being, you know, categorized as queer or because most of the work is with men. And mostly it becomes a little vulnerable. It becomes a little violent and less less advantageous, like in the Versace tragedy that you probably know of. So I'm going to go back to it after we take Norma Jean. But let's talk to her again. Norma Jean. I'm here. Oh, good. I still hear a little bit of technical problem, but it's probably at your end because this is my landline phone. Well, you sound a little better. So, yeah, let's I'm sorry that we cut you off. So let's continue from the point you stopped. Okay. So I'm going to go back to it. Okay. So, you know, the people that I know and I'm talking men and women, I'm not just talking female prostitutes. Right. We do this work because it allows us to do so many of the things that we enjoy. I'm an artist. I'm a sculptor. I'm a cartoonist. I'm a writer. I have a lot of friends that make film and do other kinds of art, do photography and this kind of income and having the flexibility to do that. Having the flexibility of the schedule that we can have gives us the time and the money to do those things. But now I understand that not everybody enjoys their work, but I can't imagine how much I'd enjoy their work if they had to scrub feces and urine and vomit of strangers at hotels. I can't think of anything more degrading or exploitative than that. No, yeah. Mm-hmm. And yet we don't talk. We don't talk. We don't talk about maids or domestic servants. We don't say, oh, those poor domestic servants, we really need to rescue them and all those kinds of things. I do. I do, actually. Yeah. Yeah. But in a different way. Yeah. Not in the immoral way. Yes. Please continue. No. I mean, there's no moral judgment on them. Yeah. And I think it's kind of odd. I mean, it's like for a lot of us, myself included, we view sex as something wonderful and something that... Yeah. ... we can do. And I think that if we can provide pleasure to other people, it's a good thing. And on a scale of one to 10, if murder is the worst thing you can do to your fellow human being... Yes. ... giving them orgasms has to be fun. Absolutely. That's on the opposite end, of course. Yes. Le petit mot. Yes. Yes. It's a different kind of death. I suppose, because we feel that way. Yeah. It's like to hear people talk about our work that we have to take on different personas. You know? Yeah. The thing is, when I worked for the LAPD, and in the capacity of a traffic officer back in my 20s... Yes. ... I had to take on a different personality because I met a lot of real jerks out there at night time. I worked a night shift from 6 at night to 2 or 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Yes. Not only did I meet the worst people out on the street, but my fellow officers were involved in all kinds of nefarious activity. Yes. They were doing a first-aid ring, a drug ring, a yacht theft ring. The cops were having sex with 10-year-old girls... Yes. ... or younger, and they didn't get arrested, nor did they go to prison. Of course. And I had... You know, my fellow officers were involved in stealing drugs from drug dealers, and then when they worked off-duty doing security at the movie studios and so on, they sold those drugs to the drug dealers. Yes. And they were very sensitive to the actors and producers and writers and everybody else in Hollywood that was using drugs. And yet, when you talk about police work and being a law enforcement agent, that's a noble profession. Right. There's no judgment. Yes. Oh, not so much. Yes. It depends on who you talk to. I look at it and say, I had to take on a whole different personality when I was working for the police because I had to hide the soft, gentle side of me. Yes. And I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I was a little bit more of a... I had to take on a whole different personality when I was working for the police because I had to hide the soft, gentle side of myself in order not to be crushed by either the bad people out on the street or the bad people I worked with. And in either case, it's like a lot of people have to distance their real person from the work they do. Maybe in sex work for some. But not all. I mean, obviously, it's like, okay, you're not supposed to be there to be there for you or who you are. Yes. You're there to provide a certain kind of persona for your client. Right. And that's why they're paying you that kind of money. And people think of all these guys that are married. Well, it's not just married. You have clients that are disabled, divorced, widowed, and a lot of men who are socially inept. Norma Jean, we have a connection problem again. Yes. Right. Yeah. See, that's not my problem. Yeah, it's probably us. I'm sorry. Yeah, we're going to have to. Yeah. So we'll put Norma Jean's info or email if anybody wants to converse with her about her wonderful knowledge of the field. And I really enjoy talking to her. I'm sorry that we got cut off. But she's very right. I mean, any form of work is not being criticized or, you know, the hypocrisy around that is not that intense when it comes to sex work. Everybody's raising an eyebrow and everybody thinks it's, oh, how terrible the fallen women, you know, that ended up there. It's always like, yeah, you know. But I want to talk about the legal matters when it comes to it. So we've established that in the United States, it's illegal. Except for certain. In rural counties around Nevada, where it's mostly regulated in brothels. And I have a big problem with it. Mostly, you know, a lot of studies show that the women in these facilities are being abused much more. And the regulation of it is a different kind of aspect that is not, you know, not advantageous towards the working woman, but towards the customer only. Or the techs, you know. Or for techs purposes. So honestly, it's not really anything that is so desirable. It's not a woman's rights type of a thing. It's more of a like. Nobody's really thinking of the working woman when it comes to these regulations. But I want to just put it into categories and say that the three, the laws of prostitution fall into three categories. One of them is the prohibition, of course, that is completely illegal, that nothing is regulated or anything. Then there's the regulation that legalizes, you know, specific forms of whether it is in brothels or, you know, specific ways of that it should be conducted. And then there's the abolition that Norma Jean mentioned. And that completely decriminalizes sex work. I just want to mention that in all three systems, pimping or, you know, keeping fees from a woman working is illegal. Okay. In all three systems, it should be heard that the idea of pimping is illegal and should be. And under the prohibition form, it should be looked at as either a socialist aspect or a capitalist aspect. And I want to make note of it because even though it sounds like we do live in a capitalistic, you know, world and in society. And it seems like it's. Always in favor of the person that is working, but it's not at all. And unfortunately, I'll start with the socialist view of things. And still in that view of things, either communist or socialist view of things, the female prostitute is still seen as the victim. And so somewhat as a victim. And so who is being prosecuted and pursued is mostly the client who is abusing in a manner. In the social. Socialist. Yes. What you're saying. Okay. Mostly they're chasing the client and not the working woman, which is kind of, you know, in favor of the woman in a way. Because unfortunately, and I'll get to the way it is in capitalist society. But China and Vietnam are, for instance, two societies where kind of managed to. And I'm not saying whether it's good or bad, but I'm only saying that they managed to kind of abolish, you know, just. Eliminate the whole idea of both pornography and prostitution because the market doesn't allow for the specific income or practice of it. And so there's hardly any of it. Now, whether it's good or bad or where does it go? You know, whether you generate, you know, this energy is a different story and I'm not going to go into it. But they did manage both these societies managed to kind of eliminate these two. Practices where in a capitalist prohibition, the one that he's been pursued and I think Norma Jean touched it is the prostitute. I mean, for instance, it's a huge waste of resources when a woman allegedly practicing any sex work. Even a call girl that is someone, you know, someone told somebody and, you know, the word went around that she's dealing with sex work can be. And she's attacked at her home by seven police officers. I mean, why on earth would that be needed? But that's the way it is. And mostly the woman is to be accused and to be chased as someone that is going to be prosecuted and accused and all of the above. And the client goes free, which is to me kind of unfair. And a Thai writer, Anita Plotkin. Numerum writes actually something very true. She says that in American society, the society that is mostly in most in the world, you know, kind of tuned to the needs of the market is so schizophrenic about providing sex work when it's something that is being, you know, it's a need that everybody is exhibiting. How come? I mean, it's kind of hypocritical. How do you feel about it? Is that true? Oh, I mean, I think we talk about it every week. Yeah. That we have this idea of be sexual, but don't have sex. Like for women in our society where we talk about how, like you said, how schizophrenic we are about our sexuality. But especially in this capitalistic market. Right. I think there's a Nobel Prize winner at Stanford, Alan Roth, who refers to it as a repugnant market. Yeah. Like people are willing to participate in it. But we think it's our society, for whatever reason, like you said, sees it as so disgusting. Like inappropriate, not right. Yeah. We don't think that should be done. Mm-hmm. That we stop it. But there are two willing participants. And he also, I mean, he talks about a lot of other things too, like organ, sorry, about like selling organs or, you know, what do they call it? Like dwarf throwing or something in different cultures. Yeah. You know, just things along those lines. And this is a similar prostitution, sex work, like you said, it's a similar market where there are two willing parties. Yes. It's just that our society doesn't view it as appropriate at all. Yeah. Very true. I agree. And so we kind of, we kind of agree that prohibition doesn't work. And when it comes to anything, you know, just to put something as illegal and unallowed is actually going to push, you know, everybody to take more risks. And it actually supports organization. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is what it is. Now, in terms of regulation, which is legalization of that specific in a way, it would be, for instance, how we have it in the States when it comes to brothels or these areas in Nevada. I find it really problematic because what it means is that it kind of represents medicalization of deviance in a way. Yeah, yeah, this is what it represents. And it characterizes prostitutes as vectors of disease because all they do is kind of, you know, medicalize these things. But they still allow these women to be abused by johns, by pimps, by anybody that comes along. And actually, a lot of theorists claim that even though street work seems to be more endangering, unless, you know, because it's not facilitated in a way, prostitutes themselves claim that it's better work for them. They prefer not to work in a brothel because then they can choose the clients and avoid specific ones that they find problematic or see from afar that is going to be either violent or a problem. Whereas in a place, in a facility, you know, prostitution hotel or whatever it is, or a brothel per se, they can't really because they're not allowed to refuse. They're not allowed. They're like, we cannot refuse service to, they don't even have that, right? No. To say like, we can refuse service to anyone. Yes, I'm open. Like, you know, the door is open. Yeah, and it's unfortunate because it's a terrible thing. But that's what they claim that the abuse is by far worse under these regulations where they're being protected. And actually, nobody's really being protected there. Yeah. Other than, you know, the pimps themselves, whoever runs the show. Right. Which isn't a surprise that, you know, I mean, it's not a surprise that the people that, like you said, run the show are the ones who are getting protected. Yeah. The pimps or the whatever, because that's part of, that's also what feeds this organized crime. Right. You know. Right. Yeah, exactly. And that's where the money is. Yeah. So whoever holds the money has the right. Right. And just to touch abolitionism, the third option when it comes to laws of prostitution, it was actually Josephine Butler. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Prostitution is something that she doesn't support. And actually, abolition is not against prostitution, but against these regulations. I mean, they're not good for the women working, as we said before. And she said that actually all these regulations are actually supporting pimps, as we said. And also, they actually take the toll off the government and they allow them to avoid looking at trafficking and other versions of abusing women because they claim, oh, we legalized it. So now it's your problem. We're not really looking at what's going on. And so it should be avoided altogether. I mean, that legalization, if it's not under the specific rules. That she offers should be completely avoided. And it should be said again that under abolition, both client and prostitute are protected by law. But again, pimps are not. Right. And I just want to, again, make sure that everybody understands it. And I want to touch a different side of prostitution, which is a phenomenon that started taking place in. I think around the 70s sometime. And it's a phenomenon called the mail order brides. You know of that? Of course I do. How do you feel about that phenomenon? I mean, it's fascinating and very sad. Yes. In my opinion. Yeah, it's very weird. I don't mean, I don't know what just, I mean. Is that something that can work? I'm going to, of course. You know what? I think it. I think it leaves a lot of room for discussion. It leaves a lot of room for abuse. You know, a lot of room for, you know, that's one of the things. One of my friends does a lot of immigration law also. And she does, she kind of works with women who come here or who married somebody here. Right. And, you know, and they were being abused and they're afraid to leave because they're afraid, they're uneducated on the laws of our society that, you know. And also subservient and unable to, very submissive and unable to, most of them don't speak the language and all of the above. It is a way. Yeah. Yes, to abuse women. Yes, exactly. And I want to say that it really is a bad phenomenon. I'm completely against it. But I want to say that especially, you know, the locations where it emerges from. Yeah. It's very easy, you know, because of the promise of a good income for the family. Again, all these women are participants in these propagandas and in these, you know, for these advertisements. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. and Australian society most of these women are by far younger than the men that buy them right that they purchased them and the initiator of it was a man called John Bruce third who was actually um he was an importer of vases and now you know all this and he woke up one day and he said yeah let's import vagina that would be great right yeah so he decided to diversify his import and bring women you know and painful to me because statistics show that a lot of them end up in in intense violence and sometimes murder and I'm really not a big supporter of it but could it really work that someone would buy a woman and she will be a good wife and they can have a good life I mean you know here's a thing you can say like you're like 99.99% of the time absolutely not but you know there's gonna be like that one person that's like it totally worked for me it was great you know it's like an arranged marriage and in my life it's so much better because now I can speak English and I have citizenship in the US and like you know so I mean I personally don't think so doesn't it benefit the woman that is coming because she does learn a language and does make the money that she can send that's the question or a family but that's the whole thing does she let's say she does get the money it still doesn't mean that she's not abused right but is that worth it do you think that a woman like that could be somewhat happy that she's supporting her family even though she's been like treated not exactly the way she would like too I think people have done worse things to support the people they love like I think people do awful things if they really are trying to support the people Just on the altar of right trying to protect or boy boy people trying to love you know trying to get away I mean basically I'm not saying that it's do I think that it could work out I really doubt that it can I think it's like whatever very little of a chance but I do understand why they do it and I do understand why they would why would these women put themselves in these ads I mean because they don't word gets around right right so I mean it's why do people come through coyotes from you know Mexico to the U.S. because their options are so limited so you have to look at what they're escaping to you know there's you don't know a woman a Filipino a Filipino a Filipino woman woman would prefer selling her whatever life that's what it is to marry somebody well it is a form of slavery or a Russian woman because these are the two targets mainly um um would prefer to come to the United States or to Australia and marry a man that she doesn't know and possibly will not like ever um and nothing will will be in common between them just to be able to support uh her family but she'll be content with it is that possible do you think I don't know contentment is a hard thing to measure but you know I'm just saying that as somebody whose family did come here and worked very low end and low paying jobs that have you know people don't view as having any dignity at all as um you know what is Norma Jean mentioned right you know having come from families where that you know coming from a family where people worked very very low end jobs to try to support it support their family and the people that they love so I mean people do crazy things just to support their yeah it's very true you know And because we have just a few minutes for the ending of our show, it went really quick this time. It really did. Yes. Yes, I have so much to say. But yeah, but I just want to mention a little nugget about that. You know, obviously prostitution didn't just happen and start, you know, in this era. No, what? We didn't invent it? Yes. So it started in antiquity. And actually there were, you know, in Rome, in ancient Rome and Greece, they had different ranks for prostitutes. But there's a funny story about one of the lower, you know, ranks in hierarchy of prostitution. And these women were called ali-ikeri. I'm probably saying it wrong. But they were baker's girls, meaning that they would work in a bakery and they would slip clients in while the bread was in the oven. And the claim is that because oven in Latin is fornix, that that's... That's the origin of the word fornication. So this is an interesting thing. They would, you know, you want a bite of my baguette kind of thing. So it was such a pleasure. Give our number for next time. All right. It's 1-800-893-9562. And I really enjoyed it. We have so much to say. We urge you really to write us or call us. And, you know, you can also suggest things that you would like to hear about or see specific guests. And we'll... We'll try to get it for you. Yes. And, you know, there's one thing I want to say. We have a big holiday coming up on Friday. So happy Valentine's Day to everybody out there. Everybody. You should celebrate and have good sex every day. Not only on Valentine's Day. Please. This was fun, honey. Yes, it was. Thank you. And thank you, everybody, for listening. Thank you, everybody. We had, you know, I was about to tear my clothes off. I know. Thank you, everybody. I'm Dr. Limor Blockman. And this is Luanne Hernandez. Bye. Bye-bye.