Drug addiction roots and recovery with Terry Massey

Hello, I'm Julianne Good and this is Psych One-on-One. We're here to make psychology more understandable, interesting, and hopefully intriguing for you and your family. We're here to give you some tips to make your life a little bit easier. Tonight, my special guest is Terry Massey, marriage and family therapist. And we're going to be talking about the roots and causes of drug addiction. This should be a fascinating topic because, of course, you know, with Philip Seymour Hoffman dying recently and the addiction component coming to forefront again, it's really important that everybody knows what's really going on with a drug addiction. And, you know, if you're having problems with it or somebody else is having problems with it, what you can do. Thank you, Terry, for being here. Thank you, Julianne. It's a pleasure to be here and to talk about one of my favorite topics, drug addiction. So I am a marriage and family therapist. However, I have spent 10 years working, being director of a program called Proposition 36, working with addicts and alcoholics. And Prop 36 was a very folded California initiative, which decided to provide treatment rather than incarceration. So the individuals that I saw during the tenure of being director were very varied and came from all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds. So I have a wide array of information. I have a lot of information to provide and some stories of clients, successes, failures and everything in between. That should be very interesting. And let's start off with a basic question here. What really is addiction? That's a very good question. And, you know, we have come to know addiction and perhaps you've heard it mentioned as the disease of the brain because we know now that addiction and chemicals affect the neurotransmitters in the brain. And really, when you're ingesting a drug, you're ingesting something that's affecting the transmitters in your brain. And that's what's causing the high that you're getting. And so depending on the drug that you're ingesting, that determines the neurotransmitters that are affected. So, for instance, if we're looking at a drug like cocaine, we're talking about dopamine. And dopamine is something that's released when we feel good. It's released during sex. It's released during exercise. And so when we enter... When we enter in a chemical cocaine, so let's just say a certain amount of dopamine is released during sex. Well, with cocaine, it's 10 times the amount that's being released. So you can only imagine if you're feeling that good how provocative something like that is. And it's easy to see where it leads to addiction. So people who have addiction to cocaine or amphetamines really have a hard time getting sober because in time, you more or less wear out. And so you're not going to be able to get sober without the neurotransmitters. So when you're trying to get sober, it's difficult because you feel horrible most of the time. And people don't realize this. Loved ones and family might think, well, he's not using, but there's still something wrong with them. They're not participating in life. Well, if you can imagine, we look at people who are depressed and we give them medication to balance out their transmitters. But with addiction, oftentimes we don't think about that. That there's this physical component involved in it. So it's important if you're dealing with someone who's going through recovery to understand that, that it is a disease of the mind, the body and the spirit. Yeah. And it is very hard to recover from something like that because, you know, especially they do get addicted to the high. I mean, who doesn't want to feel happy most of the time, right? That would be really difficult. So. And some of the clients that you've worked with, what has been one of the, maybe one or two of the most prominent drugs that they have been addicted to and have had a hard time recovering from? There's a couple of stories that come to mind, but specifically if we're talking about young people, meth, methamphetamine. And I can remember sitting opposite a 19 year old boy and I was, and he came in for his first intake. And the court had ordered him. And I'm asking him these questions and not paying too much attention to him. And then all of a sudden he starts crying. And I look over at him and I said, what's wrong? And he said, you don't understand. If I stop using, I will be in so much pain. And he opened his mouth and every one of his teeth were like rotted away. And so for him, the thought of using was associated with a lot of pain. So that's the other thing is that. Yeah. The effect on the body, the effect on the teeth, the effect on the brain, the effect on the body overall is so comprehensive that what starts out as being something pleasurable ends up being a way to ward off pain where you need the drug more and more just to feel okay. Yeah. And then how often does that happen? How often does somebody, you know, start using the drug and then they get addicted versus somebody else? Yeah. And then how often does somebody get addicted versus somebody just using the drug and saying, well, that was kind of fun, but I don't really, it's not for me, just dropping it. So do you have any like numbers on that or any kind of insight as to how that happens, how one person can just pick it up, use it maybe a couple of times and then drop it? Then another person picks it up and just runs with it and they become addicted. Right. That's another question. Basically, we look at environment. What are the environmental factors? What are the pre-dispositions to it? to it. It's like you put a key in a lock and you'll try four times and the fifth time it opens. So for a lot of people, they experiment with different drugs, perhaps it's peer pressure, it's part of the climate, the culture they're in. And then all of a sudden they hit upon the drug that just does it for them. Because drugs are, and alcohol, it's a disease of perception. So all of a sudden you take something that makes you feel really good. So for instance, someone who has social anxiety, you introduce a drug like cocaine and they feel powerful and they feel in control. And so they're able to go out and they're able to party and talk to people. It's very, it's very provocative. And, you know, we look at a drug like heroin for someone who has a long history of abuse or is very, very sensitive. This numbs them completely. There's a feeling that spreads warmth throughout their bodies. The minute that drug hits, their system and they are good. They are finally good. So for some, it's a normalizing thing. And then it becomes a problem because once they do try to come off the drugs, the problem that was there exists still. And it's compounded by the effect that now they not only have social anxiety, they have this addiction, they have this problem with pain. So there's all these other components attached to it, which makes recovery very hard, really hard. Right. And then... And, you know, when they're coming off of the drug too then, then all of a sudden they have all the side effects from just coming down. Right. And that can be very problematic, especially with a drug like heroin. Right. Right. And as for meth, I mean, I used to work in an emergency room down in Huntington Beach and saw a lot of meth users down there. And it was, for a lot of them, it was like they used it two, three times and that was it. Then all of a sudden they were just completely hooked. Mm-hmm. And that was a very difficult population to work with. What's been your experience with working with meth people? They are the most difficult to work with, because, especially if they start young, because don't forget, if, before the age of 17, the executive functioning brain isn't fully developed, and so, if they start young, they don't develop the part of the brain that gives them skills for reasoning, and I'll give you, for instance, of that, and so, I had a young boy come in who had started using when he was 12. Now I was in Westwood where he had to receive treatment. He lived in Tarzana and he didn't have a car. He rented an apartment in Canyon country because it had a swimming pool and this would attract the chicks. So what do you think happened when he had to be in treatment when he had no car and he was in Canyon country, he was trying to hitch a ride, beg for money to get the bus and he couldn't figure out where he went wrong. And this is the kind of thinking that you're dealing with. So when they come off the drug, there's nothing for them to grasp onto. Nothing prior that is stimulating at all except this primitive and emotional part of the brain. Have the urge, get the drug, have the urge, get the drug. There's no thought process involved at all. Right. And then I would imagine too that the rest of life looks a little dull without the drug. Right. And then I would imagine too that the rest of life looks a little dull without the drug. Exactly. Because they're having a party in their heads. So, you know, it makes it very difficult. It does. It makes it very difficult. And for those that do recover or really try to recover, it's a very long process. And so they need to be patient and people around them need to be patient while they're healing. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully a nice supportive system around them versus people hollering at them. Why, why aren't you well yet? Because it does take a while. Because it does take time. It takes a lot of patience. It's a lot of work to recover. It is. If you're talking about even a pill addiction, it takes about two years for that to get completely out of your system. Yeah. And that's, that's definitely one of those prevalent addictions right now is the, the pain pills. The pain pills. See, I had read a, an article in the LA Times about how people are now switching from pain pills to heroin because it's cheaper to use. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And statistically, from 2008 to 2010, from 373,000 heroin users, we now have 669. Whoa, over a three-year period? Over a three-year period. Yep. And what you mentioned as part of it, the, um, the changes made to the prescription meds, and also heroin has gotten very cheap. Yes. And accessible. It's, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, period? Over three a period. Yep. And what you mentioned as part of it, the changes made to the prescription meds and also heroin has gotten very cheap and accessible. It's coming in like crazy from Mexico and all over the place. So it's a cheap high. And when it's that pure, those that are afraid of needles are able to smoke it or snort it and still get high. Whereas before in, you know, the 80s, 90s, it wasn't as pure. And so people had to inject in order to get the high they wanted. Now it's a different ballgame. It makes it much easier to use them and abuse. Much easier to use and abuse. Yes. And among the gang cultures, it's the prevalent drug. It's the drug of choice. Cheap high. Cheap high and deadly. Yes, it is very deadly, obviously, with, you know, Philip Seymour Hoffman. That was a shocking story also. I mean, 50 vials of heroin in his apartment and I, had read the People magazine version of it. I don't know how accurate that was, but it was just fascinating to see what he, the process that he had gone through because he had gotten clean for, I don't know, it seemed like a couple of weeks. And then he went back to using and that's what ended up killing him. Yeah, he had some years of sobriety as well. I remember that. But it was very telling. I saw one interview with him and he talked about the last role that he played. And, how when it was over, he was so relieved. And it's interesting when you look at actors and addiction in that they are always in the public eye. They are always assuming roles other than themselves. And so it's easy for them to be out of themselves. And they also experience a great amount of pressure from obligations that they have. I worked with a guy who was a rock star from the 80s. And when he came into the program, he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. And he was a rock star. he was supporting his girlfriend who was an alcoholic his daughter who was an addict two wives back in London and he had and I said to him one day I said and who's taking care of you and the guy literally broke down no one so all the pressure like you said all the pressure so the things that we look at it when we look at celebrities with the money they have and the prestige and the power we don't see the other side of that and there's a huge price to pay for that so they suffer sometimes more than the average person I remember standing in court when one of my actors was graduating and the judge turned around and said I don't see any press here today but they were certainly in full force when you came in yeah I know that's sad that definitely the paparazzi just leech on to the most negative part of the story and they don't tell you what the other side is right I know that just anything just anything to do with the other side of the story and they don't tell you what the other side is right I know that just anything to do with the other side of the story and they don't sell magazines and it's horrible and the other side of the story is important to these young kids that are following these celebrities that want to emulate them for them to see that there was a problem it was addressed and they've succeeded I think it's really much more important than how they got in front of the judge in the first place right exactly they need to hear about that yes recovery is possible most definitely if any of our listeners would like to join Terry Massey and myself on this show I'd love to hear from you. Terry Massey is a senior and he was actually adopted into this very wealthy family they literally had a whole bunch of kids and they were all very wealthy and they were all very wealthy and they were all very familiar with a whole slew of production companies and his father did everything to try and help him and finally in the end said to him if you stay sober for two years I will give you five million dollars and he graduated my program there were many many slips within the program and the one good thing about Prop 36 was they recognized that relapse is part of addiction as part of the process so each one was given three chances to come back and get clean so they were able to do that and they were able to do that and they were able to do that and they So on his third attempt, he did get clean. And he graduated and started going to Narcotics Anonymous meetings. And he called me after he had a year of sobriety. And he said, one more year to go, I'm going to be a rich man. And I said, I know you can do it. And a couple of months later, I got the call that he had overdosed and died. And it was heartbreaking because he was well on his way. And I don't know what happened. But, you know, with them, you never know what they're thinking. So even though he could have been surrounded by now a support system within the 12-step community, a family that was very supportive of him, I remember talking with him at times, and he was stuck on his mom giving him up for adoption. And he couldn't get past that. Someone didn't want him. And so, again, we look at it with heroin addiction. Oftentimes, it's a result of trauma and childhood abuse, where it's very comforting to just numb those feelings out or those thoughts. When they pop into your head. So for him, all I could think is that no matter what he did, no matter what he accomplished, he was still the boy that someone gave up. And he carried that with him. And that killed him. Yeah, it's very sad. It's very sad. And it happens over and over and over again. Issues are just very, very trying to get through. And, yeah, but definitely worth working. Working through. And they are able to be worked through. Yeah, they are. I'm a living testament to that. So most definitely. Yeah. And also, it's important to understand that in the process of recovery, people need a lot of different kinds of help. So 12-step groups, therapists, family support, life coaches, holistic approaches, anything that helps them feel better. Because it's always better when there's, there's a team to account to. The more people you account to, the better your chances are. Yeah, and there's so many different options now, too. That's the wonderful thing. And if one thing doesn't work, try something else. I mean, that's one of the things that I talk about on the show a lot is do your research on the computer. Find somebody that you're going to connect with. Call them up. See if you feel comfortable with just talking to them on the phone for just even five minutes. I think. Instinctively, a lot of people can, you know, grasp onto that and stuff, but just reach out and get some help because there's so many different ways to do it now. And, you know, there's sliding scale fees for people who can't afford it and, or no fees clinics. And there's so many different options for getting help now. There is. And the state even provides, there's a certain amount of beds available at agencies that have substance abuse problems, substance abuse programs. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of programs for those that can't afford. Because, you know, today you can go for a $50,000 a month rehab. Oh. Yeah. Who has that kind of money on that? I mean, obviously there's some people that do, and it's probably up in Malibu, right? It's in Malibu. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So what are some of the risk factors that are associated with drug abuse, Terry? So risk factors. Risk factors associated with drug abuse. Well, basically they, you know, individual risk factors, temperament and personality, family risk factors, you know, lack of parental support, peer pressure, school factors, and environmental factors coming from a place of poverty, being at a school where there's a lot of violence, being the kid that's picked on, you know, we look at, we're looking a lot of bullying now and the effects of that. And one of the effects of that is substance use. In fact, they just, I just read a study on that and going back to the 1990s and looking at people who are in their 50s now who have been bullied, a high percentage of them ended up substance users because of that experience. Yeah. That's interesting. That is interesting. And I'm glad to see now that with a lot of schools, they are taking care of bullying issues. Yeah. And they, you know, they're saying, you know, zero tolerance for bullying now, which is great. I mean, that should have been, you know, several years ago that that was instituted, but at least they're, it's coming to the forefront now that they're taking care of that because you're right. It can have long-term consequences. Right. Again, if you're the kid that's being bullied, you're the kid that's being picked on and you take a drug that makes you feel better about yourself, that's, that's all it takes. It's like somebody, something is saying to you, you're okay now. I am your friend. Yeah. And it does become a relationship like that for some people. It's almost like having another person with you of sorts. I mean, there are some people that develop that type of relationship. It's like, okay, I can count on this drug to make me feel like this. I'm going to feel better after I take this or smoke it or ingest it or whatever. That's right. And some, and for some people that does become their primary relationship. It does because in order to sustain that addiction, they have to give up all their other relationships. And there's a very, there's a fabulous from the Matrix, substance abuse treatment manuals. There's a fabulous little visual, and I don't know if everybody can visualize this. Now close your eyes and visualize this. So it, there's five heads in a row. And in the first head, it has relationship, family. Job, activities, sports. Then the second head has maybe four of those things and drugs. And in the third head, it has maybe two of those things and drugs. Then in the last head, it just has drugs. So along the way, you give up everything that is in your life. And the only thing you have left is that drug. Because you can't maintain anything else and that at the same time. So that becomes your lover and that takes prevalence over everything. Yeah. A lonely existence. Very lonely existence. There's something written in the 12 step literature that was really, really affected me when I read it and it said, at the root of every addict alcoholic is the inability to sustain close relationships. That's powerful. Very powerful. And it's so true. Yeah, it is. People come in and they are very lonely. It's hard for them to reconnect because they've been away from it for however long. Yeah. So what, with a typical program that you do, what are like the first steps that you work with? What, how do you get them to build rapport with you and build trust? I mean, trust is a huge issue within addiction. So how do you work with a client like that? So from the trust is really the issue. And this is not a very trusting part. Yeah. The fact that, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, quote, Some, they say, well, I don't like doing one-on-one therapy for an hour. I don't like going to these groups. And we say, okay, so maybe we could meet for 20 minutes for a check-in. And, well, you know, you have to go to the groups because it's mandated, but I promise, you know, you'll meet other people there that are like you. And so you kind of partner with them in the very early stages just to get them to attend. That's really difficult. And also what I would do is because I understand when they're coming off of drugs, their brains are not functioning, I would call them to remind them to show up rather than wait for them to not show up and fail. Because oftentimes, oh, is it Tuesday? Is it group night? And I say, yes, it is. And, you know, come on over. And that was also very helpful to them that there was somebody that wanted them to succeed. In the middle stages of treatment, you want to begin to, you know, use what's called motivational interviewing and point out discrepancies in their thinking. So that may look like, well, I picked my son up today and I took him to the pool room and he watched me play pool. Well, how old is your son? He's six. Did he have a good time? I guess. And I'd say, well, when you were six, what did you want to do? Did you want to sit in the pool room all day or did you perhaps want to go to the park? And they think about that. Well, I don't know. I'd say, well, I know that you really... I really want to be a good dad. But part of having a relationship with your son is having a relationship with him where you understand what his needs are and what he likes to do. And so kind of pointing out discrepancies, having them think about their thinking, which is very important. And then coming to you and being able to understand when their thoughts are going away. There's always the thing of, well, I don't know what happened. I got in my car and next thing I knew I was at the drug dealer's house. Well, okay, let's back this up and talk about that. What did happen? Well, I decided to take a drive on the 405 going south. And is that something you do, you know, on a regular basis? No, not really. And then I found myself getting off at the exit and I figured I'd go get a pack of cigarettes at that bodega I used to hang out at. Oh, the bodega used to hang out at where your drug dealer goes. Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought about it, but I guess he does go there. Yeah. And you know, he was... He was there when I got there. So those kinds of things, believe it or not, are so ingrained in them, it's almost automatic. So when they say to me, I don't know how I ended up got there. I don't know how I ended up there. I know that this is something like a sober blackout. That they have no idea that their brain kind of took over and they just ended up there. Because that's where it's used to going. Because the brain's just saying, I want drugs. Yes. I want to be high again. That's right. And the brain took you where it wanted to go. And then the car did. Yeah. So things be, you know, you have to understand what it's like for them. And that when these things happen and they come and tell you about it, you want to praise them for that. Yeah. Just to get them to slow down and think about what they're doing step by step. And yeah, getting the light bulb to come on and say, do you realize what you're doing? Right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because every morning they wake up and they don't have a thought process that goes along with getting high. It goes from the urge and the feeling bad to the action. Because if they thought about it, it would be horrible for them. So that's the only thing that's functioning within that brain. There's no thought process going on. So you have to slowly introduce that so that they're able to make better decisions for themselves. Train them to rethink. Right. Train the brain. That's right. To rethink and to think. Yes. Well, we're going to return to that, Terri, when we come back from our commercial break. Okay? Okay. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous psychology, behavioral, and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses. Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, D.C. And online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health crisis. Through classroom experience and real-world training, the Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit thechicagoschool.edu. And thank you to the Chicago School for supporting Psych One-on-One. We are back with Terri Massey, Marriage and Family. And we are talking about the roots and causes of drug addiction this evening. If you would like to join this conversation, please give us a call at 800-893-9562. And ask questions. Get some more information. And Terri, what do you do if you love an addict? That is a question that I am asked all the time by family members and girlfriends and boyfriends and husbands and wives. And it's really difficult. Because if someone is actively using, then there really is no room for you in that relationship. So what usually happens is you're triangulated into the relationship between the person you love and the drug that they love. And what that means is in your attempt to try and help them, you will more or less co-sign what they're doing. Because they will promise you and mean it sincerely a lot of the times. Over and over and over. This is the last time. I need you to help me. Please don't leave me. I'm going to get better. And they don't. They really don't. In order for an addict to get better, they have to hit their own bottom. And that usually doesn't occur until they have burned every single bridge they can burn. And that means the loved ones as well. Now, it's not impossible to stick by someone when they're getting clean. But what happens then is all of a sudden, if they really see... If they're really serious and they start getting involved in sober communities and 12-step programs, the loved one feels left out. So now they're being replaced yet again by something else. So it's very important if you are going to stick by someone who's getting sober, that you have your own program of recovery. Because we all know what codependence is. And that's what we find in addictive relationships, codependence. So unless the person is willing to get their own... their own help through Al-Anon or through a therapist, it's not going to work and they're going to feel left out again. And I can tell you that my own personal experience, because my dad was an alcoholic. And when he got sober, I remember my mom saying, so now he goes to those meetings every night. What good is it? And, you know, luckily she was able to go to Al-Anon and they did fine after a while. But that was her question. So he's replaced it with something else. And all of those things mean... And you're not with me. Exactly. And when you're trying to repair the relationship, trying to get that other person healed up, what happens to the partner that is trying so desperately hard to get the other person to wake up and heal? And I mean, it's like losing part of your soul to your partner to get them to heal up, but you forget your own self in the process. Does that happen? Quite a bit. That's exactly right. They lose themselves in the relationship with the addict. And that's the codependency. You only feel as good as that addict feels. Your whole existence is based on their behaviors, their thoughts, their feelings at all hours and all times, the day and night. If they're okay, you're okay. It's remember that book, I'm okay, you're okay. Oh, yeah. Most definitely. I've read that when I was 11 years old. Early start. Good for you. Yeah. Thank you. It's no wonder I'm a therapist now, right? Right. That's right. Right. But yeah, that's, and then I've seen couples too go through that process. And sometimes the addict will take the other person along with him or her because it's like, okay, well, if, you know, it's like that saying, you can't fight them, join them. And then that partner becomes addicted also. So now you have, you have a couple that's addicted and then you have the sequelae of it. The abuse that comes along with it sometimes because they're, they're not thinking straight and they're, you know, again, they're triangulated with that, that drug of choice or alcohol or whatever. I, have you worked with couples that were both trying to get sober at the same time? Yes. And we try and separate them as quickly as possible. It's very, very difficult. And also if you're looking at a drug, you're looking at a drug that's not, you're looking at a drug that's not a drug like heroin in a couple. After a while, there are things that the women will be expected to do that will greatly affect how she feels about herself, will greatly affect the relationship and the shame and guilt that comes when sobriety hits is overwhelming. You know, women and addiction are, are in a whole other show because they suffer from the traumas associated with even obtaining the drugs. And the, and the physical abuse and the sexual abuse and the homelessness and the abuse from being on the streets. So when they finally get to treatment, they need a lot. They need substance abuse treatment. They need trauma treatment. They need a lot of other kinds of treatment just to deal with those effects. So couples are difficult because whatever values you took, whatever dreams you had, whatever values you may have brought into that relationship is gone. And so how do you look at each other? It's, it's, it's very hard to win that trust back again. Right. So, so they go through their own different programs, correct? Yes. That's really the best approach for them to have their own separate programs. And then after a while to come together to heal the relationship with a marriage, that's gotta be really tricky when it is a marriage and they have to go home to each other. I mean, what do you do then? Well, when I have worked with couples, who have been in that situation, I requested that they attend 12 step meetings and get sponsors that set the boundaries for the relationships. And so for instance, there are certain things that they cannot talk about unless they're in therapy within the context of the relationship and being at home. And then there are certain concessions that they have to be able to make as far as who's going to what meetings and time that has to be spent with sponsors and devoted to working a program. They have to be on board with that. They have to move away from each other initially to get healed in order to come back to each other. And that's difficult for a lot of people who have been in that codependent relationship. It doesn't make sense to them. Yeah. And then they're, they're, they're losing that. What may have been the glue of the relationship, right? Exactly. What brought them together could essentially tear them apart. That's right. And there's, there's always that fear. And you know, sometimes that happens. Sometimes they meet somebody else, one of the other, and then they never come back together or some one of the other two, you know, understands that they were only with that person because of the common denominator of the drug use. So there's a lot of heartbreak that goes along with that, but it's possible for couples to make it if they're able to maintain and take care of themselves first and put themselves first so that they could heal in order to, be in a relationship, then it can work. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's always the main component of any kind of healing as you have to take care of yourself first. Right. You know, it's, it has to be that way. And some, for some people that's very uncomfortable because they've never been in that position in their lives. So how do you get a person to start getting onto that path? Well, like the rock star who realized that nobody was taking care of him, you know, suddenly you may have this awakening that, you know, you hear about this in the rooms all the time. If someone does go to 12 step program and prop 36 was mandated, they had to go to four meetings a week. They hear this from their sponsors and from others that in order for them to get whole, they have to focus on themselves. So it, in a sense, it's a selfish program initially, because it's the only, the only way it can be. You have to make sure that you are available to go to all these meetings, to work those steps, to be in constant contact with a sponsor, to reach out to others, to do an inventory, to do all the things that the 12 steps suggest, because that is their blueprint for living. And if they're not willing to do that, then it's going to be very difficult because there's no old life to go back to. They don't have any skills. They don't have any tools in which to live. We know that. So they either make a complete change and pick up other tools or they, or it's very difficult for them to make it. What do they have in order to succeed? You know, an individual therapy can only go so far with addiction. I don't recommend anyone just go to a therapist to get sober. It's very hard. You really need a more complex and more available support system. Sponsor. Sponsor, right. Somebody can call at four in the morning. Yeah. They don't charge. You have to 10 minutes. Right. Yeah. I've heard, I, I've had friends who have gone through the 12 step programs and they said that that was essential to have the sponsor. Sponsors are life saving in certain cases. So definitely utilize, you know, and like I said, it's free. It's just, you know, you have to get to that point where you are really self honest. That's what it is. It's just getting down to business. Bare bones and sometimes just stepping back, feeling the pain, working through it because you know, once you work through it, you're going to feel better. You feel bad at first, but that's a beautiful thing about, you know, getting emotional, doing some crying, doing some releasing from a very deep level. It's you're going to feel better afterwards. It might take some time, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. Yeah. And anyone that, that goes into therapy or does soul searching, they realize that if you want the gain, you have to experience the pain. Many people have traumas in their lives. They've never picked up a drug and eventually they have to face that. If they're going to move on, it may be expressed in other ways, lack of intimacy, spending money, you know, whatever it is that you're able to utilize to avoid those feelings. Eventually you have to confront them. And addiction really is about confronting those demons and those feelings. And how common is it? I mean, seriously, anybody can seemingly get addicted to anything that's going to make them feel good. Yes. Or feel powerful or feel better about themselves. Or even look at the kids that would use math or, you know, uppers in the day in order to study all night to take a test only to realize when they got to school, they didn't remember a damn thing. All night they were thinking they had mastered this subject. And this is very common. So there's, you know, again, that false sense of accomplishment without anything to back it up. The drug cannot do that. It can change the chemicals in your brain that make you think that, but the drug does not do that. It doesn't make you smarter, able to study longer, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. It doesn't do any of that for you. It just, it's a disease of perception. You perceive that you are fine, but you're not, you're not. Right. And then you have to replace it with better tools in your toolbox. Like, okay, if I'm feeling like this, maybe I can go exercise. Mm hmm. Uh, maybe I can go connect with friends, something that's going to give me that serotonin and dopamine boost period, period. Something that's gonna, you know, not be as costly to one's health and one's sanity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. taking drugs and having that temporary crutch. It is, it turns out to be a crutch and that's, it can be devastating. And you're right. It is, it's, it's perception. It's an illusion. It is an illusion. It really is. It's, you know, it's an interesting phenomena because I've seen it happen across all stages of life. And, um, currently we're, uh, we have started a mental health program. I don't know if I told you this. We started a mental health program at the LA Mission downtown. Oh, great. Yeah. And so people that are coming through there that have been homeless on the streets for 20 and 30 years that have addictions and mental health issues and all this stuff compounded by the homelessness and the trauma is just incredible. But yet this is our second year and we just did a little bit of, you know, looking at the data. And from last year to this year, we're seeing such an improvement in retention because we're understanding the things that they need. So the other point about addiction is that as general as we could talk about it tonight, which we're talking about in a very general way, each person is an individual and they're going to need something a little different. And so it's up to you as therapist or counselor or addiction specialist to really listen to what that is and to make sure that they get that. Right. Or even family and friends. And if you cannot give them exactly what they need, help them to find the resources so they can start on the path of healing up. That's beautiful at LA Mission though. That's just fantastic. Oh, it's a phenomenal experience. And we have these interdisciplinary, team meetings with the students and myself and the clinical supervisor and the chaplains because, you know, we're using a very holistic approach there, mind, body, and spirit. Yeah. That's what it takes. And that's exactly what it takes. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have an integration of all three of them. That's right. Yeah. To make somebody whole. Exactly. Most definitely. So as we're starting to wrap up, what other, what other, Kate, you know, from your experience, what other, you know, clients can you, were memorable that were really difficult? You didn't think that they would recover. And at the end, they just did like a miraculous turnaround. So it's funny because just the other day, my sister told me that she saw one of my, one of the clients, one of the ex-clients on TV. And this was someone who was publicly, when I was seeing him, was doing a lot of stuff on TV. And so that's how his name was out there. But, and she remembered that and also remembered the relapses and the publicity and everything. And she said to me, remember when he was doing all those shows? And I said, yeah. And she doesn't know that I was seeing him. And she said, yeah, I remember when he was doing all those shows. And I remember seeing him individually. But she said, well, I can't believe how much better he's doing. And it's all because he left that one wife and went back to this other wife. And I thought, not true. I know how he did it. And the last day that I saw him, I said to him, the only way you're going to make it is if you give back to somebody else. And I don't mean by going on all these TV shows. That's not what I mean. I mean, getting in the trenches. And he looked at me kind of funny and he left. And I didn't know if he heard me or he didn't. But then I found out through the grapevine that he had gone on this, he had created this blog and this website and people were writing to him who had sons and daughters all over the country who was suffering from addiction. And he was traveling to these remote towns and picking up their children and bringing them to rehab in Malibu. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. And this is what he did for a couple of years. I then, you know, I lost track of him, but now here we are. About 10 years later and he's still doing fine. So I think that, you know, there's this thing in the 12-step community. If you've got 10 days and that person has one day, you have something to talk to them about. You have something to offer them. And I think that that is also a very helpful tool to the person who's recovering because very early on they get to give back. And that really keeps them stable. And also, you know, if they know someone has to be calling them every day, they need to pick up that phone. Yeah. And that gives them a sense of responsibility and that's very important. Exactly. And then what started off at the beginning of the process of having to be selfish and having to look inside then transforms itself into reaching out and putting your hand out and say, okay, I've been through this. I'm going to help you through this too. And it is such a great feeling to be able to do that, to say, yes, you can do it because I've been able to do it. And if you need to do it, you can do it. You need to use me as, to look up to, please do that because I, you know, I am an example of somebody who made it. Right. You know, you don't have to walk through recovery by yourself. You shouldn't really. Right. Because part of the, you know, like we were talking about before, Terry, about connecting with people, you need to be attached to other people. That is having a healthy, basic human life. You have to reach out. You have to reconnect your humanity with somebody else. You can't do it by yourself. That's very true. And that is the whole premise of the 12-step program, one person relating to another. Nobody has that experience, but someone who has that experience can really feel it on that gut level. And people know that they know when they're talking to someone who has been through it. Yeah, most definitely. Now, the resiliency. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about that a little bit and incorporating hope into the recovery process? So resiliency, I mean, when we look at resiliency, we look at it in the context of, you know, kids oftentimes exhibit resiliency. We could have twins grow up in the same household and one gets addicted to drugs and the other one goes on to Harvard. And the only thing we could account that for is personality and resiliency. So there's a lot of resiliency in addicts because they're very, the very act of maintaining a long-term addiction takes a lot of resiliency because every day you have to reinvent yourself in order to get that drug. And so we try and, you know, utilizing a strength-based model of recovery, we try and point out to them that they do have that resiliency and that we can take that and apply it to everyday life. So what they once thought is something that was hopeless that they didn't have, they end up really having. And so, can you be resilient enough to fight off those urges or resilient enough to not have money for a period of time or resilient enough to weather unemployment until you're presentable enough to go on interviews? So all of that comes into play when they're trying to get sober. For the kid who, you know, if we look at the two kids and one, they both use together and then one goes on to be an addict and the other one walks away from it, that's a different kind of resiliency. And that comes from, Yeah, and hopefully one of the main points is my life is worth fighting for. That's right. You know, I am worthy. I am worthy to live. That's right. That's right. Kids today, we talk about, you know, self-worth. So we talk a lot about how parents don't want their kids to be in games that there are scores and they don't want their kids to experience any kind of what they perceive to be trauma or of the ego. Mm-hmm. But study after study shows that if reward is attached to something, then it's more meaningful for the kid. So the kid grows up understanding that to achieve that takes some work instead of you need to give me that right now. Right. So we have to be very careful how we're raising our children so that they don't get accustomed to this instant reward with no work. Yeah. Or, you know, like you said, the no scoring game. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. equal and it doesn't it doesn't make sense I mean it life isn't that way and when you get to be an adult it's like okay well you're right if I don't get this now what is it worth right and there's so many things in life that you have to build up to to get that reward at the end because why keep on going I mean I you know I it's really interesting why that system is in place I I don't understand that one I'd like to know a little bit more about that it to me it just doesn't make sense well we're all trying to understand that one yeah doesn't make sense and where did it start I think it started in America has to be a Southern California phenomenon yeah definitely so if anybody is interested in coming to an event like this please feel free to reach out to us we're here for you if you have any questions about any of the recovery programs that you are involved with what contact can they can they go on to it like an email or phone number or anything I can always talk to people and refer them through the Chicago school email right now we don't have I don't I'm not involved in a substance abuse program providing services I'm overseeing the LA mission program and I provide occasional supervision to Claire foundation but I am connected to most of the recovery programs here on the west side and some downtown so I could always refer people to programs and if that's what they're looking for okay and can they have that that website please oh the email is T Massey masi at the Chicago school all one word dot edu okay terrific and I hope anybody that is going through this process or has a friend or family member that they love and care about, reach out and get some help because it is out there. And it might be a little difficult at first to get that person to that point that they do need help, but eventually it could save their lives. It is so vitally important that any kind of help that you can get them, it's well worth it. And recovery is it is available and it is possible. I most definitely believe in that. So Terry, is there anything else that you would like to say to wrap up this program on addiction? I would just like to say that if you have children, be aware that it's out there. Be aware of the signs. You know, if your child all of a sudden starts to isolate or begins to hide in their room or doesn't want to take part in family functions, I would start looking at that. If you find that your child is experimenting with drugs, you want to make sure that you get them help right away. I would be aware that there are drugs out there now, some of these things that are synthetic kind of drugs that can cause great harm. Bad salts is one of them. And we've all heard the horror stories associated with that. That household cleaners can be deadly if they're ingested. That kids today are really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, reaching for something that's going to completely take them out of reality. And they don't understand the consequences on their bodies. And so educate them, talk to them, go through their back wrap, their backpacks when necessary, and above all, love them. Yes, that's great advice, Terry. Thank you so much for being on the program tonight. Thank you, Julianne. As Terry Massey, marriage and family therapist, and that was the roots and causes of drug addiction. And if anybody would like to contact me, my email is jgoode8 at verizon.net. My business number is 562-234-4650. And if you would also like to listen to this broadcast again, it will be archived tomorrow on skidrowstudios.com and also at iTunes store under podcast per psych one. One PSYCH one on one. And there are also about 50 other programs that you can tap into at any time. Please do so. Get the help that you need. Don't be afraid to go out and look for what you need. There are so many resources out now. Reach out, get some help and take care of yourself. Take care of one another. This is Julianne Good for Psych One-on-One. Bye now. The! The!!!!!!