Danny Hawk and Adam Mansbach on adapting Rage is Back

Come on people, it's time to live it up! Hi. Hi. This is Rosemary Rodriguez, your host of The Director's Chair on We Play Radio. For those of you who are just tuning in for the first time, I'm a filmmaker who directed Acts of Worship and Silver Skies, and I also direct television shows like Empire, The Good Wife, Jessica Jones, Outsiders, Rescue Me, and stuff like that. The Director's Chair is the place to talk about directing, producing, writing, and any other Hollywood talk, or a New York talk that comes up, or a San Francisco talk that comes up. No restrictions. No politics. Just honest talk about what it's really like being a part of the film and TV industry. Our focus will always be about collaboration, and when it works and when it doesn't. And every show is going to feature different guests, along with current of the moment topics. On this episode, I have two very special guests. Bear with me guys, because you guys have done a lot, so I'm going to get to you as soon as I get through all this list of things. Okay. Okay. So actor, writer, all around. Amazing performer, and I can say that because I've seen him perform a number of times, and I'm a huge fan. Danny Hawk. Hi. Hey. So Danny's performed his plays around the world. He's won two Obie Awards, Guggenheim Fellowship for Drama, Sundance Playwriting and Screenwriting Fellowships. His writing has appeared in The Village Voice, New York Times. His acting credits include Black Hawk Down, Nurse Jackie, Thin Red Line, and most recently Bunky on my favorite TV show. The Knick. I love that show. He also started the Hip Hop Theater Festival, and in his shows, taking over jails, hospitals, and hip hop, and some people, Danny performs all the characters in an authentic, very moving way. His ability to transform himself into other people and get inside their heart and convey their humor, their emotions is unparalleled. Those were my words. I didn't read that off his website. Thank you. I actually feel that way. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And then, someone that I don't know as well, but I'm sort of blown away by what I've read about you and the writing that I have read, is author Adam Mansbach. Did I say that properly? Say it properly for me. Mansbach. Mansbach. Shit, I should have asked you that before. I mean, that might be wrong, actually. Really? What do you mean? You know, that's how different branches of my family say it different ways. We say Mansbach. I got like an uncle in South Carolina who says Mansbach. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. trying to compensate for the fact that he lives in South Carolina. I don't know. Maybe that's who I was channeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uncle Frank. Uncle Frank. Hey, we should have told Uncle Frank to call in. Shout out to Uncle Frank. Oh my God. Okay, so Adam Mansbach. He's a novelist, screenwriter, cultural critic, and humorist. You are the author of the instant New York Times bestsellers, Go the Fuck to Sleep and You Have to Fucking Eat, as well as the novels Angry Black White Boy and The End of Jews, the winner of the California Book Award. You've also written two thrillers, The Dead Run and the sequel, The Devil's Bagman. Adam's 2013 novel, Rage is Back, was named Best Book of the Year by NPR and San Francisco Chronicle. And it's currently being developed for television with you and Danny. So part of the reason that I want to do this podcast, talk about collaboration. So this is perfect. You're actually the first collaborating team that I have in episode number three. So how did you guys meet? Let's start there. We've tried to figure this out over the years. I don't think we... You don't recollect very well. Neither of us do. I mean, I have my version, which is that I met Danny through our friend Upski in like 1995, 6 maybe. I just remember eating. And this is a theme throughout my relationship with Danny. I remember the restaurant where this occurred because it was banging. It was like a... A vegetarian Chinese restaurant in New York. And Upski was launching some type of movement or revolution as he does. And it began as these things do with dinner. And it was me, Danny, Kofi, Upski. J-Love? J-Love, yes. And that was the first time I met Danny. I think you were shooting White Boys at the time. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yes, back in the days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a while ago. Yeah. Got it. 20 years? I think so. Something like, well, yeah. Wow. I mean, a long time ago. That long? I didn't even know that I knew that that's what I met you. Yeah, we didn't really like kick it then. Right, right. I'm not sure I remember when we really kind of started actually hanging out. And my version is that I think I met you at some jazz event at like the Manhattan School of Music where you were on a panel about jazz. Jazz and hip hop, I think. And I was like, who is this dude? And why is he still talking? No. Yeah. And why am I at a... That sounds unlikely to me just because I can't imagine you attending that panel. Right. Me either. Yeah. It was a mistake. So then you wrote your book and then you read the book when it came out in 2013? Or how did you decide to start collaborating on that piece? This is what's kind of interesting is that I wound up getting a call to read as an audition. I was like, I'm going to do the audio book for Rage Is Back. I could see that. And I had not heard of the book. I knew Adam. I mean, since then, you know, you'd come to a bunch of shows. I see you. I run into you. We talk. So you're auditioning through an agent, not anything to do with Adam. I had no idea he was even... Until I got the audition tapes. Right. They sent me like five people's audition tapes. And one of them was Danny's. And I was like, oh, shit. Danny? Yo. Like, I didn't even listen to it. I was like, Danny. Give it to Danny. It's perfect. Yeah. Because it's all these voices in the book. It's perfect. And it's like this kind of, you know, graffiti era voice of New York. Lots of voices of New York. And I'm like, okay, that's right up my alley. So I should probably be doing this. But then I read the book like a few nights before I had to tape. And I was like, oh, this book is insane. I didn't even know that he wrote this book. How could he not have told me that he wrote this book? I'm going to kill him. And then I... I go and I do the audio book. And I was like, this thing has to be a television show. Got it. So you were probably working on the book maybe even when you met Danny. Or maybe not yet. I think I started working on the book. The book came out in 2013. I think I started... I know that I finished writing the book in 2008. And that seems like a long time from finishing to, you know, the production and the release of the book. And it is. I didn't actually sell the book, I think, until 2011. Right in the aftermath of Go the Fuck to Sleep. I tried to sell it earlier. And people were... It was a funny time. It was the moment really when the publishing industry was in free fall. Like things were very, very bad. It was hard to sell a book. It was hard to sell a literary novel. That would be the same time that they were saying television is dead. Yeah. And then now it's the golden age of television. Right, right, right. I'm not sure books are going to come back the same way. Yeah, I don't think so. No, I think the golden age of books was like a couple centuries ago, probably. Maybe, maybe. But yeah, I finished it in 2008, sold it in 2011. It came out in 2013. And Danny and I, I think, started working on the adaptation, what, like two years ago? Almost two years ago. About a year and a half, two years. Yeah. So obviously you've seen Danny. You had seen Danny's work. You know Danny. So that was kind of a shorthand. But when you went to Adam and say, hey, I got to write this series. And I want to write it with you. Versus I love your book. You write the series. Or what, like how did you, how did you feel about letting him, it's your baby, right? Your book. So how did you feel about collaborating on something that was done just by you? Or was it easy? I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to remember. I think I was excited at the idea of collaborating with Danny because I respected him and I loved his work. And he was a friend. Which doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. I'm a friend. You might worry about losing his friendship if it doesn't work out. Potentially. That's happened to me where it's a little difficult. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because, I mean, for the first, let's say, 10 years of my career as a writer, I didn't really collaborate at all because I was primarily a literary novelist. I sat in my room. I wrote the books, very solitary pursuit. And only in maybe the last five, six, seven years have I become somebody who collaborates on a regular basis and feels much freer and easier about it. It used to be something I guarded very closely and, like, the notion of collaborating with anybody on anything was, like, weird to me. And then I started writing screenplays. I started doing TV stuff. And I started, you know, kind of just meeting more people that seemed feasible collaborators. And I got, like, shotgun married to showrunners I had to collaborate with. And, you know, you sort of loosen up a little bit about it. And at some point, it no longer is, like, I can only collaborate with, you know, the perfect. Partner, but more like we all kind of speak a common language. And should I have to, I can probably collaborate with anybody who is talented and not an asshole. Right, right. Or Danny, for that matter. Well, no. Or Danny, the exception to that rule. Yeah. But Danny, too, your pieces are so personal to your experience. And you put your heart so deeply into them. So how is it for you to, like, now be collaborating? With somebody? This is a good question. I mean, well, I had some previous experience with, I want to say, collaborating on my own work. And bringing other people in to write, to convert it for a film or to convert it for television. Because, you know, my background is in theater. The writing was playwriting. And even though I had worked enough. Writing for television, writing for film. Transferring your own work to that. I feel like you need another eye. You need a collaborator. Do you still feel that way? Because now you have, I mean, you have so much experience now. I do, but I still feel that way to a certain extent. Because I feel that when it's so personal. And when the original work was a play. Or in Adam's case, a novel. It's hard to see the forest from the trees in terms of what needs to be done technically. So I had people help me with that. Who are my collaborators on my own work. And then when I saw Adam's work, I was like, you know what? I know what needs to be done here. And not that I didn't trust Adam to do it. But I knew that it would be done more efficiently if there were two people. Or at least two people. Right. If we were sort of. If we were in the writer's room. Right. As it were. Without the interference of a studio. Or, you know, somebody coming in and sort of screwing up his book. And screwing up his story. Because I thought, you know, I really understand this story. I really understand these characters. And if you give it to these schmucks, you know, at the studio. You mean the people that we want to support us? Exactly. Those schmucks? Yeah, the creative executives. Right, okay. I'm like, they're going to screw it up. No way. Just because you have. Okay, so you've read a few, you know, written a few episodes together. And we'll get back to the process of it. But you don't know what's going to happen moving forward. Because just because it's very fleshed out doesn't mean somebody's going to be like, hey, that's a great idea. We love the book. Right. Yeah. Let's just start over. Right, change everything. Oh, my God. We've even been told that we made a grave mistake writing so much. Because it will make people think we cannot take feedback. Well. What's that? Well, I also think that it. That's interesting. Like, well, you guys have a vision already. It's like that one word. That's a problem. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Because I think what happens is lots of times the people that it's not under the guise or they think it's under the guise of collaboration. And I'm talking about writers of all types and television or whatever or executives or whatever type of people. It's under the guise of, you know, we're collaborating. But really. It's because there's so many people on the payroll and they sort of need to justify their paycheck. Right. That's just me being honest. That's just an honest opinion. I've seen this in action. We've all seen it in action. So that sort of person in that sort of need to be able to have some input and say something. You're kind of giving marginalizing them, which is a little bit of a problem for them, perhaps. But anyway, we won't go down that road because the thing is this thing. This this series, the book was a huge success. The series going to no doubt be a huge success. So going back to when you started collaborating on the scripts. So how was that? How did you sit down and start like, you know, first of all, you live in San Francisco. You live in New York, right? Danny's in New York. Adam's in San Francisco. So how did you what did you do? I think that when we first started trying to collaborate, we were having Skype sessions. Remember that? Yeah. Like long Skype sessions. And breaking story that way and talking things through and trading pages. But it wasn't until we really got in the same room that things really started to cook. So if I asked each one of you now, like what is. I mean, maybe you have a story down about it now because you've talked about it so much. But if you said, what is your book about or what is the show about? What would what would your answer be? Yeah, I'm getting like post-traumatic stress flashbacks because Danny will will be like, yo. What is what is this series about? And I'm like, yo, B, can I get a coffee first? Can I make some espresso? He's like, no, tell me in two sentences what the show is about. I'm like, why don't you tell me? How come I always have to tell you what the shit is about? And like this will go. This is like insight into our process. Yeah. Our process involves like like 10 hour days at my crib. I have a kid, so I can't travel the way Danny can. So Danny will come stay with me. For like two up to like two weeks at a time. Repeat it like I added it up. I realize I'm not really answering your question, but it's OK. I added it up and I spent more time in 2015 with Danny than anybody except my daughter and possibly my girlfriend. But like in terms of raw hours, you know, like Danny, Danny would at least be in the top three. Well, that's good. It's amazing. It's amazing. I mean, that's a good collaboration. Yeah, it is. And most of that. And most of that time, me yelling at him, demanding him to define what the story is. I was going to say, a motherfucker still didn't tell me what it's about. Exactly. That's what you had to deal with? That was rough. Because he's afraid. That's why it took so long. That I'm going to hit him. It took a long time. No, but what is it about? Just tell people that are listening like what the story is about. Yeah. So that they'll be compelled to go read the book and then watch the show. The story in a nutshell is about a war between the graffiti writers of New York City and, a cop who has been their long time enemy, who is now running for mayor. But all of this is really a proxy war between forces that are much older and darker. And it's kind of a war between good and evil. The writers inherit a tradition that's 11,000 years old. And the cop is essentially possessed by a demon who dates back also to the beginning of a time when the ritualized writing of symbols had a deep spiritual connection. And the graffiti writers are kind of the inheritors, unbeknownst to them, of that tradition. That's good. What do you say it's about, Danny? How did he do? He did all right. That was actually possibly the best synopsis you've ever given. Yeah, I would say that is what it's about. Character-wise, which is another way to look at it. It's about a couple, a young couple, who are legendary graffiti writers in New York City in 1987. And the evening that they give birth to their first child, their graffiti crew goes out to bomb an entire New York City subway train yard in honor of the baby's birth. Right. Whose name is Dondi. Whose name is Dondi. And the act of bombing the subway yard in which they get raided by the cops when they're finished bombing the whole yard sets off a whole chain of events which exposes this ancient war, which is 11,000 years old, and winds up manifesting itself between the police and the graffiti writers of the 1980s. Right. And the graffiti writers of the 1980s. But then brings us forward into present day. And really, this ancient battle that's still happening today between people who write symbols to represent and express themselves and sort of protect themselves from the forces that be and these evil forces which have existed. Yeah, I mean, also, I was just looking at my notes because there's a scene, I'm not sure if it's in the book, but in the script where there's misguidedness. Yeah. And one of the cops comes, you know, this sort of this female sexy cop who's sort of like not so old school but like into doing things like a little different outside the box. And she goes to, you know, she's investigating and she goes to talk to them. And when they leave, there's a conversation between Mr. and Mrs. Stein. And, you know, he doesn't want, Mr. Stein doesn't want to tell the cops anything. And Mrs. Stein doesn't either. But his rationale is, you know, he's calling the cops. the cops are murderers and liars. Why would we trust them? And that really rang true to me for like today. I mean, this is the world we live in. I mean, maybe 11,000 years, you know, it hasn't changed. You said that earlier, like it hasn't really changed. We keep going through all these different things outside and inside. It always comes down to like money, you know, greed, sex, basic human instincts, right? So I think it's, anyway, I think it's a great world. And it obviously speaks to your collaboration, like how much time you spent putting it together and the fact that you would fly across the country to actually do that with somebody and not, you know, just think that it's going to be real fast. Because I met with you, I don't know when it was, like a year and a half ago or so? Well, maybe about a year ago. A year ago. And I just remember meeting with you and I was like all excited and then I didn't hear anything. And I was like, oh, they just went to another director. Am I? I'm just going to ask him because it's like too hard. And then at some point you wrote to me and you were like, yo, we're just like, we're rewriting and stuff. And I was like, that's good. Because sometimes, you know, around this time of year, I can get a little frustrated because it's Academy Award time. And, you know, I watch a bunch of movies starting in, you know, the fall, like November, December and now. And, you know, I'm just not really totally impressed with the movies right now. And I feel like everything is sort of good, entertaining, like quality, but not like changing my life in any way, shape or form. Like I'm not thinking about it later, you know. And sometimes I feel that in part it's because people are not good collaborators or there's certain people in positions where nobody really tells them the truth or they don't really want to hear it when something's working or not working. And the other thing is just how much time it takes to create something. How long, when you, when you, you worked for years on your book and then when you do your one, one man show and you take it out, how long is it? You know, from like starting it out and then getting it out there and really rehearsing it until you feel like it's, it's, it's in great shape. Years, years, two, three years, really. Right. I mean, you don't, you don't invent these things in a night. Some of this stuff you do create in a night, you know, on a, on a sort of creative binge, you'll write 30 pages. Well, you're right, like a hundred pages and, you know, a 24 hour period. But that doesn't mean that the whole, the whole work is done or that it doesn't need editing or tweaking, or you don't need to add a whole bunch of other components to make that hundred pages sing. Right. But that's, you're talking like a first draft or an idea that comes to just like you spit out and you feels really good, but then you get bummed out because then you realize, oh, it was really great in the moment, but actually I got to go back and do more work on it. That's when somebody else reads it and sort of tells you that. Yeah. And you're like, fuck, like, really? I got to go at it again? I thought I was done already. And we, And we did this. We did this several times. I mean, this is what we spent the last, you know, almost two years doing is sort of revisiting. What is this whole story? What does this whole story look like on television versus the book? Because to me, the book is perfect as a book. And, you know, the challenge here was how do you transfer this to television, respecting the laws of television that need to be respected, but also honoring the book? Because I really care about this book. So I was like, okay, we're going to need to embeddle some things. We're going to need to add some things, but like, it can't be gratuitous. We can't just be, you know, reaching in the dark. So let's really talk about how does the story that's already in the book exist on the page for television? And if we have any questions, that, you know, this is mysterious or this seems contrived, let's always go back to the book. Like what's in the book as like a seed and then just rework it. Yeah. There were a number of times when Danny would insist that we not stray from the book. It's a funny thing because when you're the author of the book, I feel like it's incumbent on you to not hold the book too dear. You know, like Danny's job is to honor the book. And my job is to not be too precious about the book and be willing to leave it behind, willing to say, look, let me be the one to acknowledge that what's in the book isn't going to work. And we have to branch out and figure it out and reimagine it. Is that hard for you? Occasionally it is, but it's a process that I've become more and more comfortable with it as I've adapted different things. I mean, I've participated in, and I've done a lot of work with it. And I've done a lot of work with it. And I've done a lot of work with it. And I've done a lot of work with it. And I've done a lot of work with it. And also witnessed different adaptations of my work for the stage, for film. And I've learned to be the guy who leads the charge and saying like, look, don't feel beholden to the book. Usually giving people the freedom to be free with that source material. And also I've adapted other people's work. You know, I've done adaptations of books that I love. And there is a real delicate, finely tuned balance between honoring the book and doing what's best for the story. And also sort of, you know, at the risk of sounding like mystical about it, there's a way of kind of developing a deep enough relationship with the source material that you feel that you are staying in line with the spirit of it, even as you jettison the actual words on the page or the facts of the story, you know? And what is that hard? And what is the real heart of that story? Or what is the reason that you made the book? And then, yeah, what is the real heart of it for you? Like, what's your real connection to it? For me, I began the book with a couple of things in mind. One was I wanted to tell a story in first person. And I mean, right there, we're not in TV land at all. You know, like that. That's the impetus for the book was to hang the story entirely on the first person voice of this kid, Dondi Vance, who is the son of the author of the book. Right. The son of these two graffiti writers. Billy. Yeah, Billy Rage and Karen, Rem 209 Robinson. For me, the book was going to succeed or fail based on the calibration of his voice. I wanted him to be wise beyond his years, but also a stoner, not entirely reliable as a narrator, funny, digressive, the type of dude to get lost while telling a story, eventually come back around to it, but be hilarious and entertaining, even as he is forgetting what the fuck he's talking about. I wanted the book to require a certain kind of suspension of disbelief that was also totally dependent on him being likable and relatable and believable, even as he's spinning what is essentially a very fantastic tale. Is there a part of him that's you? Yeah, for sure. I mean, he's a precocious 18 year old who moves freely between different kinds of worlds. You know, on one hand, he's the son of graffiti royalty. He's biracial, so he's moving between racial realities. He goes to a prep school on the Upper East Side, but he lives in Fort Greene with his mom. Yeah, I mean, I was always around older people. I was always taken with the lore of graffiti. So one thing was to write a book from Dondi's perspective and just like put everything into the voice. The other thing was I wanted to write a book about graffiti because it's a culture that has always fascinated me. Oh, yeah. You know, it's... It's... Well, has a certain... Your writing... Other stuff that I've read, just again, just doing research on you and the stuff that I've read, you have a rhythm to your writing, which somehow... I know it's not graffiti, but sort of hip hop. There's sort of rhythm in there that definitely connects to that. It's musical. It's musical, right. I mean, I felt that just reading... And I'm just talking about stuff you did, Huffington Post or whatever, just different articles that I've read. I love your writing. Like, I can't wait to read the book. I mean, I really love the script. And so in that character, in that world, like, what is it? You're always... You're always exploring characters in the heart, their heart. And so what is it in Billy's heart or Dondi's heart or this main character? What is it that really got you? I think for me, it was the world of New York City and graffiti at the time, which I grew up in. I mean, I wrote graffiti and grew up around... I wasn't a good graffiti artist at all by any means, but that was the predominance. I was a good graffiti artist at the time. I was a good graffiti artist at the time. I was a good graffiti artist at the time. I was a good graffiti artist at the time. I was a good graffiti artist at the time. I was growing up in New York. So I recognized all these characters, and I cared about their voices being heard. And I also really appreciated the absurdity of it, as well as how life and death they revered the culture and the way that they felt about it. Because I remember how empowering graffiti was. It was something that I really felt to me as a young person. And I saw ultimately how empowering it was to the people who really were good graffiti artists. Some who didn't survive. A lot. A lot of who didn't survive, which is really how the television show jumps off now with the death of one of the main crew, which is from the book. Which I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. that we'll be willing to have characters go. Because that's real life. Yeah. It's true to the world. Yeah. Yeah, the idea that these kids were willing to risk so much, willing to risk life and limb and liberty in pursuit of this art form is astonishing and gives me chills to even think about it now because it was so pure. It was a group of kids who were ignored, marginalized. The city at large didn't care about them. You know, they didn't have other means for the most part. I mean, sure, there were kids who were doing graffiti and went to like art schools. Art and design was a hotbed of graffiti. But largely you had kids who were denied access to art programs, music programs, means of artistic expression that were accepted. And that's the moment that hip hop springs from. You know, it was about seizing public space. All of the hip hop art forms do that. Throwing parties in schoolyards in the Bronx with big speakers, writing graffiti on trains. They're going to be seen by millions of people a day. There's something incredible about that. And the kind of fame that was being sought was totally divorced from any notion of money, any notion of civilians knowing who you were even. Like writers wrote for other writers more than they wrote for anybody else. And they evolved a language, a visual language that was, incredibly complex and kinetic and it evolved. Codified. Codified, yeah, and evolved so quickly. Like I've talked to old school writers who were like, look, you don't understand, like, like nothing in the world would have compelled me to leave New York City for even two weeks because I would have come back and been outdated. Like style was evolving so fast on the trains that I had to be at the writer's bench on 149th and Grand Concourse every day. Watching trains go by. Right. And I had to like keep evolving my style because it was blood sport. It was a competitive art. It was competitive. And it was, yeah. You know what? We have a caller. Caller, are you there? Hello? Yo, yo, what's up? What's up? What's up caller? Yo, what's up man? Do you have a question? Yo, yo, nah, I just want to comment. I got a little commentary. I'm listening to the podcast. Shit sounds nice. But I was just waiting for a motherfucker to freestyle rap. Yeah. For something. I mean, y'all talking on the psychological shit. Like, you know, when are we going to get to like the one to one to touch it? You know, yo, you calling the right show, my man? Like what? Yeah. Yo, yo, isn't this how rap should be today? Podcast. Well, I mean, you have a speechless. It's the opposite of rapping. We don't even know what to say. I got like, y'all need a beat or some shit. I think you need a beat. I feel like I feel like maybe you want to freestyle and contribute to this. Wow. Y'all like, like, y'all need a beat. I mean, I don't understand. And I hit you up with a couple of bars, you know? I think you might have been to a couple of bars. Yeah. Well, you think the show is going well? You're interested in what? You're interested in what's going on? You're going to go think about this book and then would you watch this show? Rage is back? Yeah. Yeah. I'm feeling the book. I'm feeling the storyline. I'm feeling the vibe. I just want to know when the auditions are to be taking place. You know what I mean? Oh, like I'm bi-coastal and shit, you know? All right. Bipolar or bi-coastal? Well, well, they kind of go with it. True. True. They go together. Yeah. They do go together nicely. They do. They do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You are田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田田 Bipolar shit that's happening right now. No, no, I did. Because I didn't know Adam. I know Danny. And then when I went on your website and then I saw you, right? The picture of you sitting there. And then I said to my husband, I'm like, yo, but he looks like Danny. Yo, I sat down. You got to tell the story. No, like a week ago, like no more than a week ago, I sat down to have coffee with a cat that I never met before who hit me up. And he's like a parent at my daughter's school. And he found out what I do and stuff. And like 10 minutes in, he was like, yo, you know who should play you in the biopic? And I was like, my man, that's a weird thing to say. To begin with, right? To begin with. Like, I'm not feeling that. But he was like, yo, that dude Danny Hawk, you know who he is? Do you know who that dude is? I'm like, ah. No, but that's what I thought, too. I mean, not that biopic, but I thought, you know, you guys look, it's true. I was like, wow, he looks like Danny. And then we just, we all just had dinner. You what? Are you still there? So just like, yo, yeah. So just a quick, just a quick note. Like, so I'm on the phone, so I can't watch the show. And right now, when Homeboy was talking, I could have sworn that was Danny. And it wasn't Danny. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, we hear you. We hear you. But like, but just. Y'all motherfuckers, y'all motherfuckers got some shit going on, man. Yo, it's a hustle. The whole thing is a hustle, baby. Yeah. It's a three-car money. It is right now in more ways than one. If you see that, like, Jails, Hospitals, and Hip Hop gets remounted, you know, and it's coming to a stage near you, you don't know. It might not be Danny. It might be me. It might be you. Pretending. Yo, could I just say, Jails, Hospitals, and Hip Hop, if you haven't seen that shit, you need to go on the website, whatever website is out there, and get that shit. Because that shit is off the fucking hook. Why are you encouraging people to bootleg my work? Nah, nah, nah, nah. That's what, no, no. That's what you understood. I said go to the website and get it. Oh, word. I said get it. Good looking. There's something called, there's something called PayPal. Word up. You put your credit card in. I heard of it. And then, yeah, yeah. Good looking. Buy that shit, download it, stream it. That shit is dope. Yo, you sound like the type of call I might have to hit off with, like, a free copy of the DVD. Yo, yo, yo. Yo, yo, do y'all need my address or something? We'll work that out. We'll work that out. Like, do I tell the operator my address and then I can get a free copy? Yeah, call the operator. Her number is zero. She's standing by. I'm going to hook you up. That's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the operator that picked up the phone when I called the studio. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah. No, no, but listen, you interrupted. So I want to finish this story. Because, man. Remember, we were, like, looking at the website. Okay, he looks like Danny. And then, you know, I'm reading about you. And I'm reading some of your articles, Adam. And I see this, you know, about your hashtag. Hashtag, like, whites against Trump. Right? Oh, yeah. So I read this thing. And it kind of, like, inspired me. Because I was telling you how a few months ago, Deadline or something, did this, had a list of, like, you know, people that are producing, movie directors and stuff. And people that are in TV. The successful people in TV. So I was looking at people like Steven Soderbergh. And then looking at, they would have his picture and then the other guys that they are, you know. And they have this for a lot of people. And it turns out, like, all the guys produce things with guys that look like them. So when I saw your, you know, I saw, wow, you look like Danny. I was like, okay. And then whites against Trump. So, you know, Nestor, my husband, kind of, like, helped me come up with our own hashtag. Which is hashtag white guys that look like other white guys. Shouldn't just hire white guys. That's a long hashtag. That's good. But it was supposed to come out a little smoother. That would have been, like, a hip-hop rap. Kind of. It might be more than 140 characters. I think so. That's because you said it. That's because you interrupted, caller. We're going to let you go now. Yo, yo, but hold on before I go. That's because you said it naive. The hashtag should have been like, yo, bust it. White guys that look like other white guys shouldn't be hiring white guys. That's how it goes. All right? Shouldn't be hiring just white guys. Just white guys. But just white guys. It don't matter. Hey, yo. Keep talking, man. Thanks for calling. Thank you, caller. All right. Later. Hold your head. All right, cool. Well, there you go. So, speaking of these white guys, you've worked, Danny, with some, like, great directors. You've worked with Terrence Malick. You've worked with Steven Soderbergh. Like, who's your favorite director? And did you, you don't even have to say who, but what's your best collaboration in performing in television or movie? Wow. That's a good question. I don't know if I have a favorite, really. I've had the opportunity to work with some really good directors. You know, Spike Lee, Ridley Scott. Everybody's got a different... Energy? Yeah, different energy, a different, you know, micromanaging or just letting actors do their thing. So, how is it? All right. So, back up there. So, when you're micromanaged, how does that work for you? Well, it depends how the micromanaging happens and where it's coming from. It depends on who's doing it. And who's doing it. And I also... I don't think it depends on who. I think it depends on how they're doing it. Okay. So, I remember an experience on a film where I just... Or was this on a TV show? Wait. No, it was a TV show. And the director wanted something else. And I responded with what I thought that they were asking. And they kept... They kept... They kept coming back with, no, no, no, no. Not like that. What I mean is this. And they kept articulating the same thing. And I kept... Same words. The same words. I forget what it was. Like, more something. You know, more cowbell. You know. And... Which would be a great direction to give you. Yes, exactly. More cowbell. That'd be awesome. Because I got lots of cowbells, you know. But I realized after like the third or fourth time where they were getting frustrated, giving me the same note, and I thought that I was doing it, and then I thought maybe I'm misinterpreting it, that they were actually trying to get on my nerves on purpose because they thought that that was going to solicit what they really wanted, which they didn't want to tell me. It was like this passive-aggressive way of like going around. And I'm like, listen, I'm a Sagittarius. Like, I need like... Just tell me directly what you want and I'll do it. Like, why didn't you tell me that in the first place? You know, like, I didn't get it. He says that. But take it from me, deliberately annoying him is actually a great way to get results. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. No. I've said too much already, but, you know. No, it is not. It's a good way to get results if you want to get beat down. So what happened in that situation? You got frustrated. I got frustrated. The director got frustrated. I felt like I failed because I couldn't take direction. I don't know if the director... I'm assuming it was a he. It was a he. So he was trying to frustrate you. So when you were frustrated, why wasn't he happy? Because I wasn't frustrated in the scene. And I think his logic was that if I frustrate the actor by giving him notes that I know that... And I keep telling him that he didn't do it, that he's going to be frustrated in the scene. If he would have told me that he wanted me to be frustrated, I could do a million versions of frustrated. Oh, that's ridiculous. But when we went to action, I was doing what he asked me, which wasn't to be frustrated. Wow. He was asking me, like, you know, be more pedantic about it. And I was like, okay, I'm going to give you a hundred ways of pedantic. But really, like, he wanted me to be frustrated? I don't know. That wasn't a good experience. No, it wasn't a great experience. But I think, you know, it's tough because every actor is different, too, in all fairness. And sometimes if you are direct, but the actor already has in their head what it is that they're going to do, you know. I've also been in other situations where... I'm not really sure what the director wants. And the whole context is something really specific. And I ask, well, just to be sure, you know, I'm kind of going to give it this take. And they refuse to say anything. Yeah. Like, whether it's affirmative or not. And then you kind of go ahead and do it. And they're like, okay, that's not what I want. And I'm like, well, why do I... Did they say it like that? Yeah, yeah. Because I don't... I generally tend to not tell people either. I mean, I just... I just like people to just relax and do what they're going to do. Right. Before I get in there. Because everyone's got to breathe and, like, live it. Mm-hmm. One, two takes. How did you conclude that he wanted you to be frustrated? Like, how do you know that? Or do you know that? Because I... Ultimately, I corroborated with some other actors. Oh. Because I was so perplexed. I was like, this is a huge waste of... Mm-hmm. Of the whole crew's time. And they were like, this is what he does. Yeah. Because I'm like, I know we're speaking English, the same language. And, you know, what you're telling me, you know. Were they like, one time he wanted me to be sad, so he, like, drowned a kitten in front of me? It was basically kind of like... Well, they were... What somebody had... Well, actually, more than one actor had told me was that this director somehow got in his head... Well, they were manipulative. Yeah, I'm not down with that. Yeah, I'm not down with that either. And that's how they thought that they were going to be effective. Yeah. Was to sort of manipulate the actors into acting. And it's like, wait a second, like, we're all actors, you know? Right, right, right. If you had hired people off the street, maybe, but, like, you guys actually do this. Yeah, that seems like, among other things, just a waste of time. Or as a last resort. As a last resort. If you can't figure it out, I mean, maybe. But I think it's interesting, because I think anybody who's a creator has gotten, like, perplexing notes at some point. You know, like, I remember I used to spend a lot of time with my friend Eugene, who was making jingles, commercial music. And I'd come to his house and be like, what are you working on, man? He'd be like, yo, I'm losing my mind. And I'd be like, what's going on? He's like, well, I got to do this spot, and I just got notes from, like, the, you know, the company. And they were like, yo, we want you to do, like, a Tito Puente thing, but not Latin. And he'd be like, what the fuck does that mean? What does that mean? But, like, I remember one weekend, he was making music for the Trio Network, which I don't think exists anymore. But Chuck D was hosting a whole weekend of programming. And they were like, all right, we want you to do this. We want you to do, you know, like, you know, like, that Public Enemy, like, that rap rock shit, but no guitars. And he was just like, who, why are these people giving me, like, what is this? You know, like, what's going on? Because they have to say something. Yeah. That goes back to what I was saying before. They have to say something. Right. They feel like they have to say something. They have to say something. They feel like they're contributing to the creative process. Because most people, first of all, we're artists, right? So we're artists. Everyone's not an artist. So, you know, sometimes people don't understand what we do. They don't understand. They don't understand how to communicate with us. But what's your best and worst collaboration that you've had? I'm assuming this is probably your best. Anyone that lives with you that long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, most of my collaborators don't get invited to, like, live with me. And, like, my daughter doesn't, like, wake them up every morning and, like, demand that they do impressions, you know. Oh, that's awesome. Oh, my God. Will you come stay at our house, too, and do that? Possibly. Oh, my God. That's so awesome. Okay. Do you have an espresso machine? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, no. This has been. This has been a lot of fun and very fruitful and, like, a great experience. Aside from this one, I would say what comes to mind are a couple of novels that I wrote. And the collaboration in that sense. It sounds weird to talk about novels as collaborative, but my editor. Right, your editor. A guy named Chris Jackson, who is head and shoulders the best editor I've ever worked with. And really the best editor anybody who's worked with him has ever worked with. Like, you know, I've talked to many, many of his writers, and we all have the same conclusion. He was just profiled in the New York Times Magazine because he's really got a lot of shine right now. He did Ta-Nehisi Coates' book. He did Jay-Z's Decoded book. He's done books with Matt Johnson, with Hugh Masekela, with Victor LaValle. Like, just a really dope lineup of people. And he pushed me really hard. And I think we were talking earlier about how many different approaches we had to this adaptation. And, like, we tried it one way. We tore it down. We started over. It was with. And then the second book that I did with him, which was a novel called The End of the Jews, which was the first time I ever kind of went through the really grueling process of writing an entire novel, you know, from the first word to the last, turning it in and realizing that it's garbage and has to be totally taken apart and rebuilt from the ground up. You know, like, if it was a car, it would just be a bunch of greasy, tiny pieces on the street. And then you got to put it all back together. And I feel like. And I feel like on some level, if you have never had to do that, you're not fully the artist that you can be. You know, like, that was incredibly painful. It was a really just unpleasant process that took forever. But what came of it was incredible. And now I, like, know that that's part of it. And I know that I can do that. And that was Chris. And it was one of my readers, one of my friends who's a novelist. We read each other's stuff. Who made me do that. That was a great collaboration. And worst collaboration? The worst collaboration for me was a screenplay that I wrote. And it wasn't the fault of the people that I was collaborating with. Like, everybody had the best intentions and I'm cool with them still. But we were all very young. And it was the type of thing where in the scramble and the hustle to try to get the thing made, these guys were just kind of going with whatever way the wind was blowing. So they didn't ultimately value the intention. They wanted to be the integrity of the script. Because every week it was another hustle to get it made. So it was like suddenly, you know, we've spent three months honing the script, getting it what we want it to be. And part of that is like, you know, 90% of the script takes place on this little island. So it's like, yo, you got to get them to the island as quickly as possible. So it's like cut, cut, cut. It was 15 pages. Now it's 10. Now it's five. Now it's three. They're on the island. Boom. The movie starts. Suddenly it's like, yo, we got this like Estonian investor and he might fund the movie. Mm-hmm. And pre-sell it in Germany. But his girlfriend's got to have a role. And, you know, the only place we can put her is like she could be the main character's mother. So how about if instead of straight to the island, they like dip over to Sweden and have like, you know, a visit with her. And I'm like, word? Like, is that really in the best interest of the script? But also it's like, you know, well, the best interest of the script is getting the script made. And, you know, it's like, yo, we got this Italian investor who's going to come on, but he needs there to be an orgy in the movie. And I'm like, word? But, you know, you're like. You're. You're in the mix. And you want it to get made. Are these real notes? These are, yo, dead ass. These are real. These are real. And like part of you is like, that's fucking absurd. But another part of you is like, I can probably figure out a way to make this work. Well, if the money's in the bank. You know? The money gets in the bank. Money's in the bank. But also, you know, like part of, you know, it takes a certain amount of belief in yourself to do this work. Like you got to believe you have a lot to say if you're going to write novels or write screenplays or whatever. So part of you is up for the challenge. It's like, psh. I can. I can work an orgy into this without ruining this script. You know? Well, I think, look, we all know what the heart of it is that we've created. Right? So if something comes on, there's also, I think, the key to like collaborating or being open is this is what we set out to do. This is what my vision is. Now, if something comes in from somebody else and it's an idea or some reason, even if it's for that kind of wrong reason or absurd reason, if it's something that hits you somewhere where it's like possibility, you have to get past that first five minutes. Like. Possibility for five minutes because I want that money. But then if it sits with me and I'm like, actually, that's a shitty, stupid idea. That shit is whack and it cannot be a part of this. Right. Right. Then, you know, you're going to know. And then there's another part where it's like, well, the universe may be presenting something because you really don't know where that thing is going to come from. Yeah. And sometimes it comes from people you don't even like. Yeah. It could be some asshole that like, you know, gave you a note on something or. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, you can really. Sometimes I've been in a situation where I very much react to it and want to fucking kill somebody. I mean, really, because I can't stand that person that said it. And then it'll sit with me and then I'll sit with me and be like, there's something there. Yeah. That I need to look at. Yeah. For me, as a teacher, you know, I taught fiction to graduate students for a couple of years. And I had been through that program also, that MFA program. And the ability to sift through like 10, 12 competing sets of notes. And figure out which ones to take and which ones to ignore. And how to separate that from who you like and who you don't like. And just really understand that the things that hit you in the gut and won't leave you alone are the good notes. Even if the person who said them is a terrible writer. Right. Or a terrible human being. Right. Yeah, it's really important. The funny thing, though, one other thing that comes to mind on the collaborative tip and with Rage is Back. So the editor who eventually bought the book at Viking. She gave me like. Three major notes on the book. And I remember reading her editorial letter. I don't know if I ever told you this story. But I got her editorial letter. And I sat with it. And I was like, you know, keep in mind, she just bought the book. I don't have a relationship with her yet. But it's important to, you know, take your editor's notes seriously. Like they're the champion of the book in the world. And if they don't believe in it and don't really spend some of their capital on it within the company, it doesn't even stand a chance. So I got the letter. And her three major suggestions. Any one of them would have utterly destroyed the book. And I read them and I read them again. I gave them to my man who'd read the book and had been my first close editor and been like, yo, am I bugging? Or are these terrible ideas that make no sense? And he was like, nah, these are terrible ideas that make no sense. Like she wanted me to combine two characters in a way that would have been like nonsensical and would have upped the coincidence quotient of the book by like three. Five million percent. And so I took like a real deep breath and write her this really respectful email breaking down very clearly, but also cautiously why I thought these suggestions were not that great. And I was coming off of these two books with Chris Jackson, who I would spend 15 hours a week arguing with on the phone and like pulling out every stop and like, yo, man. And then get off the phone and be like, God damn it. He's fucking right. I got to do all this shit. So I sent her this email and I'm like holding. My breath. And she writes me back and she's like, oh, yeah, no, I see that. You're totally. Yeah, that's right. You're right. I'm like, what? Yo, like, yo, I'm trying to be. Are you serious? Why did you fucking write me these idiotic suggestions? If you're not good, it pissed me off more that she wouldn't stand up for them. That's like I agonize for like six months over firing. And then I finally like did it. And she's like, OK, have a really I hope you have a lot of success. And that was like the whole conversation. I'm like, what the fuck was I six months like worried? Right. Yeah. Anyway, we're like at the end. We have like two minutes left. I could spend like hours with you guys and hopefully I will. But before we go, I just want to make sure that, you know, the listeners can find you, follow you and all that stuff. So tell us, Adam, what you're doing now, where they can follow you, all that stuff. What I'm doing now, a script of mine, my first feature film is is commences shooting in about a month. So I'm excited about that. Um, it's a movie called Barry and it's being directed by Vikram Gandhi. And it is about 21 year old Barack Obama's first six months in New York City in 1981. So that's that's on deck. Sounds awesome. Yeah. And how they find you? Oh, Twitter and all that. Yeah, I'm on Twitter at a man's back. My website is at a man's back dot com. You know, I'm basically inseparable from my own name. Which is a good thing. Yeah. It's a good thing. I'm glad nobody else grabbed that domain. You know, I didn't get I didn't get Jeb Bush or anything. No, no, that's good. That's good. And Danny? Um, old school Danny Hawk dot com. H.O.C.H. Well, you can come by my house and look for him. Yeah, you can come by his house. I'm doing accents for his seven year old daughter, teaching her how to distinguish between Finnish and Estonian. Word. Um, yeah. Anything else we can see? Like you come in watching you? Are you coming back on the Nick again? Or, you know, I can't tell you. OK, about the Nick, because, you know, there's some storyline, especially if you haven't seen the first season. But but let's see. I just did an episode of Gotham. Nice. There's a film coming out called Wolves. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody. Everybody. Everybody should look you guys up and like start really getting involved in what and following you and what you're doing, because you're two super talented, really great, great people to know. So anyway, you can find me on Facebook, Rosemary Rodriguez and on Twitter and Instagram. Rosemary directs. I'm look out for Silver Skies, my new movie that's coming to a theater near you. Yeah. I hope. And don't forget to subscribe to the director's chair. It's easy. You go to we play radio dot com and subscribe. And download. So you don't miss any episodes. We'll be on again next week. And the director's chair is always about collaboration. And thanks, everyone, for collaborating with us tonight just by listening until the next time. Thank you. Come on, people. It's time to live it up. That's right. Live it up. Live it up. Live it up. Come on, people. Now. Go together. Now. Let's get together. Come on, people. Let's live it up. Oh.