Attachment theory and NAMI walk with Shelly Hoffman

Hello, I'm Julianne Good and this is Psych One-on-One. Welcome, we are here to make psychology more understandable with tips for you and your family to make your lives easier. Tonight I'm going to run a different format. I was supposed to have two guests on tonight and one of them could not make it, but she will be booked later on. And around 7.30 I'm going to be having Shelly Hoffman from NAMI, which is the National Alliance on Mental Illness. She's going to be speaking about what great works NAMI do and a special event that's coming up in Los Angeles. So I hope you keep tuned in for her. She's a wonderful friend. I did some training with her in November on how to work with people with serious mental illnesses and very informative. She's a wonderful person. So I am going to open up the phone lines. This evening, if you would like to join me in conversation about what's going on with your life, what's going on with the world, what's going on with psychology, the number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893-9562. And once you get into the studio, just press one and you will get directly through to my new board operator for the evening, Cheyenne. You go girl. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm going to be talking a little bit tonight for a little while about attachment and attachment theory, which you may not be familiar with. It's an old theory from the 1950s, but I think it's really relevant as to how you're able to relate with the world and able to relate with other people. Because what attachment theory is about, and this is from John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth and their work done in England, it has to do with how, when we are all infants and small children, how we attach to our caretakers or our parents, because not all of us are raised with parents, right? So what the theory is, is when... When you were little, how did you relate to your caretaker, your parents? When your mother, your father, especially your mother, because of course, you know, she bore us. So what happens when she leaves? Did we freak out and, you know, want to know where mommy was? Yes. Did we want to have that? Did we want to have that person back right away? And how did we feel when they left? What happens is that in a secure situation, when, you know, when the caretaker leaves, when that person comes back, you're like, oh, okay, great. I'm relieved. The person's back. I can count on this person to take care of me, to feed me, to love me and shelter me. And, you know... Change my diapers and great things like that. So if they come back, they're reliable. Then we've like, okay, great. We've got a secure base. We can sit there and say, okay, the world is a safe place. Now, if our caretaker isn't exactly attuned to what we need, takes a while to come back. And when that person comes back, we're kind of like, oh, okay, well, you're back. And, well, that's fine. But, you know, I was a little anxious when you were gone. But whatever, when you come back, that's kind of an avoidant situation. And what they call anxious resistant. Maybe I'm not quite sure you're coming back and you want to sit there and play with me or whatever. And I'm kind of like, I'm not in the mood. Go away. You know? Now, the next one is dismissive. So these are the kids that when you see the caretaker leave, it's like they don't even realize that the caretaker has left. They just go off and play and go off in their own little world, go off in their own little fantasies. And the caretaker comes back and they're like, okay, you're here. And it doesn't make any difference to me. And the last one is avoidant. Caretaker comes back and it's like, okay, I'm going to punish you. You left me and I'm really not too happy about that. So I'm, you know, if you want me to pay attention to you, forget it. I'm going to just walk away. I'm going to avoid you. I'm going to just, you know, be a brat or whatever. Right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. styles follow you into when you start wanting to bond with other people, when you want to start coupling up. And a lot of times we don't realize that we are bringing our childhood right into these new relationships. And what do we do about it? And we, you know, we try to figure out sometimes, well, I really like this person, but the closer he or she gets to me, I'm like, okay, I'm feeling anxious now. And you start doing behaviors that will start not being so positive, starts having negative effects. And it's like a push and pull in these relationships, right? What do you do about it? You know, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, you can't, you know, you can't figure out why this is going on, but it happens and it's really uncomfortable. And sometimes you can take this into your adulthood and you're wondering why, you know, if you start coupling up, your boyfriend or girlfriend's not staying with you for a long time, or you start finding fault with him or her, and you start making excuses. It's the other person. That's the other person. Why, you know, why is this happening? And, and, and still looking, at well, maybe I'm just uncomfortable with that person. And why is that? Maybe I should look a little deeper into this situation. And, you know, maybe start asking questions, if you can, about, you know, whoever raised you. How was I when I was a baby? How do we interact? If we can have that conversation, that would add a whole lot of information into why I'm having problems as an adult, being able to bond with somebody else, or, you know, having behaviors that, that are going to start, you know, bombing the relationship, and then you wonder why you're alone. So it's really interesting to go back, if you're able to, and start realizing what's happening, because these are behaviors and attachments that you can change. Sometimes it takes a little bit of work and a little self-realization time, meditation, journaling, reading some self-help books on this, because there's a lot of writings now on attachment theory, and how they affect people for their whole entire lifetimes. Also, if you get to the point where you can't really get past why your relationships aren't working, and I'm even talking beyond coupling, I'm talking like family, or friends, or really being able to feel, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, a deep connection with anybody. Sometimes it's good to go into therapy and start figuring this out and untangling that web of attachment and seeing where it's going. Now, I pulled up this one article by a Chris Fraley from the University of Illinois. And it's, it's a little technical, it's a little academic and stuff. But I liked some of the situations that he had brought up during this. Talking about attachment, and that actually, all mammals need to attach to other, other beings. It's, it's within our DNA, it's within our connection, that it's just really important that we have that it's, it's important to our physical and our mental health. So one of the things that John Bowlby asked, and this is really interesting, if you think back about your childhood, the attachment to the physical and the mental health of your child, and the attachment figure, which the attachment is going to be your mother, your father, or anybody that you were close to in your family, or if you were adopted, your adopted family, or anybody else that was your caretaker. But the question is, is the attachment figure nearby, accessible and attentive? Now, if you think back, you know, when you, when, when you needed somebody, and you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you cried, or you screamed, or whatever, however you got your attention, was somebody there that was close by, and could take care of you in a short amount of time? You know, whether, you know, was hugging, or kissing, or saying, oh, you know, let me kiss your boo-boo, or whatever, right? And that's really important to, to feeling loved, secure, and confident as an adult, that, that, that carries into everything that you do. And, and your feeling of, okay, the world is safe, and I can ask for my needs to be met, and they will be met. So, some of the questions that, that they asked on here, and, and this is, this is good, if you've got a little bit of time to sit here and ponder this. These are questions that some of these researchers called Hazen and Schaefer, in 1987, asked about, you know, which way do you think, feel, and behave in close relationships? So, for you, we've got three options here to think about. The first one, and the first statement is, I am somewhat uncomfortable being close to others. I find it difficult to trust them completely, difficult to allow myself to depend on them. I am nervous when anyone gets too close, and often, I'm not. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. I'm not comfortable being close to them. Often, others want me to be more intimate than I feel comfortable being. The next one is, I find it relatively easy to get close to others, and I'm comfortable depending on them, and having them depend on me. I don't worry about being abandoned or about someone getting too close to me. So, if you have that one, that's a secure attachment, and that's what you want to be going towards. If, you know, that's the healthy statement. You know, you're, you're, you know, comfortable with people, but you kind of assess the situations before, you know, getting, you know, the next step of involvement, right? The last one is, I find that others are reluctant to get as close as I would like. I often worry that my partner doesn't really love me, or don't, you know, I don't want to be in a relationship with them. I don't want to be in a relationship with them. He doesn't want me to stay around. I want to get very close to my partner, and this sometimes scares people away. So, if that statement kind of holds true for you, maybe it's some dependency or over dependency issues, and you know, but again, just sit there and get real with yourself, and it's, all of these can be changed if you're not comfortable with them. You know, it's not anything, everything's not set in stone in life, right? You can go and you can change at any age, at any stage, as long as you, you know, if you want to do it, that's the whole thing. You don't change because other people want you to change, right? You do it because you need to do it, because you get to the point where you get uncomfortable and things need to shift. Things always change in life, right? That's, that's a, an ultimate, it changes. Everything's temporary, so. We are going to take a short commercial break, and we'll be right back. The Chicago School of Professional Psychology offers numerous psychology, behavioral, and health-related science graduate degrees at three campuses, Los Angeles, California, including branches in Westwood and Irvine, Chicago, Illinois, and Washington, D.C., and online. The Chicago School prepares students to meet the ever-changing mental health needs of society through classroom experience and real-world training. The Chicago School Counseling Centers in Irvine and Westwood provide caring, confidential, and affordable psychological services to individuals and their families. For more information, visit thechicagoschool.edu. And thank you to the Chicago School of Professional Psychology for sponsoring Psych One-on-One. And this is Julianne Good, and I'm doing a solo venture for the first half of this show. I was supposed to have a guest on for the first half, but she had to reschedule, so I will be having Shelly Hoffman from the National Alliance on Mental Illness on in the second half, so I hope you stay for that information. It's a great organization. Thank you. They have a lot of free mental health help for not only people who have serious mental illnesses, but also support for their family and friends so that they can be caretakers and they can also take care of themselves. It's so important. If you would like to join me in this conversation, the number is 800-893-9562. Again, that's 800-893. And call up and let's talk about what's going on in your life. And maybe you have some ideas about this attachment issues also, because as I was saying earlier, this is one of those things that we don't have enough education on, and it really does affect us for our entire lives. We don't realize sometimes how long we can carry our childhood. Into our adulthood and how it can affect us if things went wrong. So there's always time for repair work and change. And I truly believe this. I've done this in my life. I walk my talk. So that's why I come on every week and do these shows. I'm hoping that these shows are going to affect other people and take what you can from the show and use it. or pass it on and help other people around you because that is really what this life is about, is helping others. And it's a beautiful cycle. We help ourselves first and then we turn around, we help other people because there's a lot of situations going on nowadays that people need a little more love and attention and taking care of. And it can get pretty chaotic and radical with everything that's going on. So sometimes you just need to slow down, take care of yourself and take care of other people, right? Now, I am coming back to Chris Fraley from the University of Illinois' paper on a brief overview of adult attachment theory and research. And he's doing a comparison of adult romantic relationships between... and the relationships that you had originally with your caretakers when you were very little and didn't have any control about how other people were taking care of you, right? We are all dependent at certain points in our life. But I thought that this was really interesting that he does... Well, these researchers, again, Hayes and Schaefer, come back to that, you know, there's an emotional bond that develops between adults, adult romantic partners, and it's partly the same system as we were brought up with, with our parents and our families. And he does... They do the comparison that the similarities in these relationships are that when a couple's together or when a child is with their caretaker, these are the healthy situations that should occur that both feel safe when the other is nearby. And they're very responsive. Both engage in close, intimate bodily contact. Both feel insecure when the other is inaccessible. I mean, a little more explanation on that one is that, you know, when somebody you love is away, like maybe on a trip, you know, you feel... You feel a little bit lonely, right? You feel like, oh, I'm going to miss him or her. But I know that they're going to be coming back. And then I'm going to be happy again because, you know, that's my loved one. And, you know, I just feel great when I'm around him or her. And both share discoveries with one another. Both play with one another's facial features and exhibit a mutual fascination and preoccupation with each other. And both engage in baby talk. I thought that that one was sweet. I think you see that in younger couples and older couples, but I've seen that in some older couples, too. And I just, I love that. That is so wonderful. But the... Why this is so important is, you know, you look at your relationship right now. Are you happy with it? Are you happy with your significant other? You know, I mean, in general, because, I mean, it's always not a hundred percent. You're going to have issues. You're going to have problems. Just... You know, little squabbles here and there. Probably not big things. And if you really, you know, stop and look at it, most of the time you're like, oh, well, that was a stupid thing to fight about. You know, unless it's an ongoing situation and then you have to stop and you have to look at what the root cause is of why you're not getting along. And then start exploring, okay, how were you raised? How was I raised? Maybe we both came from dysfunctional families. You know, and that needs to be resolved. It needs to be talked about. And hopefully you can do it as a couple and can just take some time and say, hey, you know, this isn't going quite right. So let's just stop. And why is this happening to us? Because obviously we had this initial attraction to each other. And are we losing that essence? Or is it changing? Or are we having a lot of stressors in our lives? Or is this garbage that we're bringing in from our childhoods and we don't even realize it? Because so many times we just work on autopilot, don't we? It's, you have to sit there and think, just stop. And because it's so important to have somebody that you care about and love in your life. It just makes life just so much easier, doesn't it? Especially if you can depend on each other for love support, financial help, help with just everyday tasks and having somebody to rely on and having a friend in your life. It's so much easier to go through life when you're not isolated and you're alone or you're hooked into your technology and you're shutting out the outside. What's the best way to do that? I mean, that's good every once in a while to do that escape, but not all the time. Not so often where you feel like you're just cut off and you're losing something in life. We're going to cut to a little musical break and then Shelly Hoffman from National Alliance on Mental Illness will be on with us. Cheyenne? Cheyenne, hi. Let's play some music, honey. Thank you. Are you searching for answers and insight to life issues? Is the behavior of family or friends questionable or concerning? Find tips and possible solutions from the convenience of your own PC, cell phone or tablet at therapycable.com. Therapy Cable has the most comprehensive library of contemporary therapy videos online. Help may be as easy as a few clicks away. Therapy Cable offers comprehensive therapy videos ranging from addiction to self-care and contact information for qualified providers. Find the answers to your life challenges at therapycable.com. Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music! Music Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Right, right. NAMI knows that families and individuals living with mental illness, you know, have a lot of costs. Somebody who may be on disability alone would find it hard-pressed to find, you know, good support groups and educational programs. And families who have, you know, poured out, you know, thousands of dollars to help their relatives can become depleted. And NAMI recognizes this and offers these programs at no cost. Also, the NAMI Family to Family course, which is a 12-week course, offered to families who have a loved one with a major mental illness or significant others. And they offer the added safety of being with other people in a similar situation and greatly reducing stigma. Stigma is the number one reason why people don't seek treatment, because there is still this old-fashioned idea that somehow it's a character, that it's not difficult to have a brain disorder, that it was either bad parenting or lack of willpower or, you know, any number of misinformed ideas that put the blame on people dealing with these issues. And in order to not face the stigma, many people will just, you know, go turn the other way and say, okay, I can handle it. Or there's nothing wrong. Or whatever they do. Instead of get help. So NAMI is really all about reducing the stigma so that people can get the help they need. NAMI does provide help and hope to people impacted by mental illness. And that is one in four adults. One in four adults. And two in ten children. And there are so... This affects so many people. But most people, when they hear the statistics, and these are from the National Institute of Mental Health, and they're shocked. And the reason they're shocked is because people don't talk about it due to the stigma. And the fear. But luckily we're seeing more people talking about it. You have a show. You know, there's other people, you know, who have been, you know, brave enough and courageous. They're brave enough to come out and, you know, mention that they've had some struggles. Or that they're dealing with, you know, a specific diagnosis. We do see that. We see it more in depression. And even now we're seeing it with bipolar. Which is wonderful that people are feeling brave enough and courageous enough to let the world know. So that there's more safety. There's more safety for other people. But we see it less so with psychotic and delusional thinking illnesses like schizophrenia. But there are those who do, you know, come out and get help and get support and have great lives. And share their journey with others so that they can be an inspiration. That's true. That's true. And then... I know I was honored to have a couple of people on the panel that had been struggling with mental illnesses for a few years. And they were definitely brave to come out and to be two of the trainers on the panel. And it was beautiful because it puts a face to something that a lot of people in the general public are scared of. And it was beautiful because it puts a face to something that a lot of people in the general public are scared of. Absolutely. Because it's... And part of it, again, is the Hollywoodization of mental illness. What it looks like and what it could spiral into. And a lot of times that's just fictionalized. Right, right. So, just drama. Right, right. There have been, you know, better depictions in television, I'm happy to say. Of people, you know, who... Of people, you know, who... Who are living with mental illness and it's just a part of them. It's not their whole identity. But the media does have, you know, a long way to go in general. You know, whenever there's something like, you know, gun violence, there's always a resurgence of mental illness stigma. Right. And, you know, the truth is that people with mental illness are much more likely to be victims. Of violence than they are to perpetrate it. But, you know, there is this thread, you know, that is, you know, waiting to pop open, you know. I did want to mention two of NAMI programs that are so valuable in putting a face... You know, a common... A much more common face to mental illness and getting it out there. One is called Ending the Silence. And it's a program whereby... People who are living with mental illness, and it's usually younger folks are more effective in doing this. And they go to high schools in Los Angeles and present, you know, in an assembly. They share their stories. And it's so powerful because, you know, you have high school students in the audience. And very often, you know, some serious mental illnesses, the prodromal stage... You know, when the beginnings of an illness are beginning to, you know, come out. And there may not be a diagnosis, but yet somebody is experiencing something that feels strange or scary. And they may not feel safe to talk to anybody. But if there is a conversation going on about what some people have been through and how they got help... And kind of, you know, kind of normalizing the experience for somebody who is... Beginning to feel strange. It can make a world of difference for the person to be able to know that there is help out there. And they can get it. So that's a wonderful program called Ending the Silence. Yeah. And another program... Can I just... Yeah, can I just make a comment real quick on there? Sure. Yeah, I think that's really important for the high school age. Because a lot of times, serious mental illnesses will start manifesting... In the teens... In the teens and early 20s. That seems to be a really prevalent stage for any kind of biological mental illness to start appearing. Because of the change in chemistry, just, you know, going through the hormonal changes of being a teenager. And then, especially if there's any type of family mental illness history also. Because a lot of times this can be genetic. Right, right. Yes, so true. Well said. And, you know, mental illnesses are multifactorial. So... Right. A genetic predisposition alone doesn't mean that somebody is going to, you know, have a mental illness. Correct. And somebody, you know, who is unaware of any, you know, predisposition... Um... Because... It may not show up, you know, in every generation. It's multifactorial. There's got to be some kind of genetic predisposition. And then some other factors in the environment. Right. And a series of other things that sort of coalesce to allow, you know, a mental illness to, you know, to come to fruition. So, um... It can be complicated. Complicated. Yes, it is complicated. And hopefully, you know, we'll have more research and more help in this arena to... Ultimately... Find cures. It's not enough that we just control symptoms. And it's not enough that we just stabilize people. People need to have good lives. Yes. Live with an illness and have a good life. Just the way we want that for anybody dealing with any other kind of illness. So I wanted to mention this other program that... Called In Our Own Voice. And it is another NAMI program where... Speakers can come to any place in the community. Whether it's, you know, a charitable club that wants to be educated. Or whether it's a corporate office or business or whatever. They want to learn about, you know, what is mental illness? What is it like? What does somebody go through? You know, how can we help? How can we make things better? Um... Where people come out... And share their story. And their story of recovery. And they show, you know, some videos. And, you know, it's very successful. And it comes out very successful. So people can, you know, find out about that too. That sounds wonderful. So, you know, again, Shelley, as you were saying. I mean, it's the... Getting the general public educated about this. So that if this happens to... To... Either themselves or somebody that they love and care about. They've got these resources ahead of them now. They don't have to feel so scared and helpless and alone. With dealing with this. Yes. That's so important. Yes. Because, you know, because of stigma, a lot of people do, you know, keep it to themselves. And sometimes at the beginning stages, you know, people go through crises. You know, there's some mental health crisis. Um... Um... Um... Um...... in the family and it's very difficult, just like any health crisis. You know, if somebody has a heart attack, you know, it puts tremendous strain on all members of the family. And how do you deal with this? How do you recover? What do you do? How do you eat? How do you, you know, and all the same things happen, you know, with a mental health crisis. If somebody has a psychotic break or they, you know, are suicidal or any number of things that are extremely paranoid or they're not, you know, they're not being rational, you know, people need to know how to intervene, how to, you know, steer their relatives towards help, how to help themselves, because it can be completely overwhelming. And so that's really, there's no parallel like NAMI. There's really no place that people can turn to for that kind of support and education. And so I think it's important to have that kind of support and education at no cost. But it's not even the cost issue. It's the being with people who understand what it's like. And these courses are really, really wonderful. The family-to-family course, the two words that are most often used to describe that in a poll that was conducted are hope and life saver. Wow. Yeah. And all free of charge. That's fantastic. Yes, yes. And there are NAMI affiliates, you know, all over the country. And in Los Angeles County, we have 12 local NAMI affiliates. This coming Saturday, October 11th, all the affiliates come together to put on this 5K walk. We're meeting at Grand Park on the performance lawn. And where is Grand Park, by the way? It's downtown L.A., right between the Music Center and the Civic Center, City Hall. It's a really beautiful park that's, you know, a few blocks. If you happen to be at the Music Center and you look east, you see those fountains across the street between Grand and Hill. And that's exactly where we're going to be, on the performance lawn, at that block. Okay. Pedestrian entrances are on 201 North Hill Street and also 200 North Grand. People can get in, you know, both those sections. You'll see a big balloon arch. There's a stage. There's, you know, chairs. There's booths from all the NAMI affiliates, so people can get, you know, information. People can register to walk if they just show up that day. They can donate. They can check out the resource tables. We'll have all kinds of, you know, valuable resources for people around, you know, in this arena. We'll have some entertainment for kids. And our speaker program, right before the walk begins at 915, we have a few speakers. We've got some surprises for folks. We have a NAMI walk team T-shirt contest and a best-dressed NAMI. NAMI dog contest and bubbles and face painting. And it's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a celebration of all the hard work that has gone into making this walk and into people's efforts at fundraising to support the program that they have benefited from. Yeah, so they can keep going with all the materials that you need to do these trainings and all the, you know, all the, marketing and publications and everything else. There is a cost, you know. So, yeah, it sounds like a great benefit. And it does sound like a lot of fun. So I hope that the listeners participate in that. And again, that's this Saturday, October 11th. It's starting at 8 a.m. in Grand Park on the corner of Hill and Grand in downtown Los Angeles. We hope you can join us. Yes. Thank you. One second. It's at the, it's not, it's between Hill and Grand. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. And the cross street would be Temple. Temple. Okay, great. The cross street would be Temple. Okay. And if you, if your listeners go onto the website, they can get all the information. There's a map. There's information about transit. You can register. You can donate. There's all kinds of information on the website. And that is www.namivalks.org. slash Los Angeles County. And NAMI is spelled N-A-M-I for the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I'll repeat it one time. www.namivalks.org. slash Los Angeles County. Okay, fantastic. So I hope that you come out and get some information. Thank you. Thank you. If you're having symptoms or you're not quite sure what's going on and you want some more information or you want some information for your loved one because you're concerned about his or her behavior and or your loved one has already been diagnosed and you want to get more information, NAMI has fantastic information. Just even on the websites, I've gone on there and pulled off a lot of information just for research. And it's just been astounded at the understandable down-to-earth information that's on the website. Well, that's wonderful, especially coming from you. As, you know, as, you know, a Ph.D. candidate, I hope I didn't reveal anything I wasn't supposed to. Oh, no, no, no. You're fine. You're fine. Thank you. Okay. Yes. But especially coming from you. And I find that's true. There are resources there for all people in the community. If they just want to learn about, you know, what is schizophrenia? What is schizoaffective disorder? You know, I heard about this, but what is that? You know, they just want to find out. They can get a lot of resources there and some great suggestions for further reading. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's all out there. And I think that's a great way to get information. And everybody needs to go do a little research and get a little more educated on, you know, what's happening with mental illness, especially with depression. Depression is, I think, increasing. I think the numbers are definitely going up. And as one of my professors would state it, depression is the common cold of mankind in mental health. In the mental health arena, yes. Yes. That is true. You know, more days of productivity in the workforce are lost to depression than anything else. And, yeah, it's a big one. I think that in terms of increasing, you know, I don't know the data on that, but what I do know is that, what I do hope, is that we're getting more reporting of it because in that way, you know, there can be help. Right. Unless, you know, something's recognized, you know, you can't make improvements. So once it's recognized, there's all kinds of, you know, ways to intervene and have a better circumstance, you know, a better life, you know. Exactly. There's going to be suicide prevention resource table also at the walk this Saturday. You know, I think there was a lot of attention, and rightly so, when Robin Williams took his life. Yes. You know, it was a big tragedy. And, you know, so sad that his life became, you know, intolerably painful for him. Yes. He was, you know, such a gift. He was. But, you know, there are 99 people, another 99 people who take their lives every day. That's such a tragedy. And that is, yes. And there is, you know, not to put blame on anyone at all, but suicide is largely preventable. I agree. When people know about it, you know, with the more information they get and what to look for and questions to ask. And how to talk about it. I mean, a lot of problems occur because people don't want to talk about things. And they think that if they talk about it, it will get bigger. But in reality, talking about it helps. Yes, it does. Because then you can do something about it. Right. It's out in the open. You can air it out, and then you can go get support wherever you need to go get support from because people are... they're there to listen and are caring. And it's so essential to remember that, that there are people that do want you to be better and do want you to survive and live. There is something within all of us that wants to hold on to life and wants to get better and wants to be happy. Right. That's so true. And, you know, I guess they say that... And it's so true. That, you know, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Yes. Yes. And everything is temporary in this life. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. Yes. Hopefully the stress I'm dealing with right now leading up to this walk is temporary too. You've been working so hard on this walk. Yeah. So maybe after Saturday you can get some R&R. You're going to get some R&R yourself, right, Shelly? Yeah. Sounds good. Yes. So as we are... Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, but it's so important. It's so important that it's worthwhile. It is. It is. It's a fantastic, fantastic organization. So as we are wrapping up, Shelly, is there any other information you would like to give to the audience? Well, I'd like to say that if you have people you know elsewhere in the country or a relative somewhere else in the country, there are NAMI affiliates all over. And you can just go to www.nami.org and find a local affiliate for accessing these programs. And NAMI welcomes... Membership. Membership is only $35 a year. And the benefit of membership is that it becomes a better lobbying effort when we attempt to impact mental health laws, which we're still a little bit in the draconian era compared to some other countries, I must say, you know, compared to, you know, some European and... some other countries also. So that's also valuable. Okay, wonderful. I think that's it. I don't know. Did I leave anything out that you can think of? I think you did a fantastic job, Shelly. And thank you so much for being a guest. Thank you. This is Shelly Hoffman from NAMI. Thank you so much. You're a great interviewer. Thank you. Thank you for asking me. And thank you. And good luck with the walk this weekend. Everybody go out. Thanks so much. Downtown LA, right? Great. Thank you, Shelly. Take care. Bye-bye. Thank you. Okay. You too. Bye-bye. And thank you for joining me on Psych One-on-One. This has been Julianne Good. And if you would like to get information on my therapy services, please go to the Psychology Today website. It's under Julianne Good. And I am in Orange County in Irvine, California. That is where my office is. Please contact me. All of my information is there. And thank you so much. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for joining me. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. Bye now. We'll see you next time.