Needs vs. wants with Julie, plus shoulder massage

I'm back. No, that's bad. No, that's not good. That's good. That's nice. That is. Hey. Well, if you're having an issue, then yeah. All right. Hi. Welcome to Intellectual King. Hi. I am Insidious Muse. I'm Service Slut. And we have a guest. Yes. We have two guests. We have two guests. One will be a silent guest who will be rubbing my shoulders and my neck. And one is a dear, dear, dear friend. We both love her immensely. Redemptions Girl. Okay. Or, you know. As we call her. Julie. Yeah. Because, you know, I knew her before then. So. Julie's just easier. It is. It is. I mean, RG could be okay, but Julie's still pretty. Say hi, Julie. Hi. We remember her from many moons ago. She had her boobs in a calendar. Yeah. Do you remember the boobs in the calendar? Well, it wasn't just my boobs. I mean. Oh, there was other parts? Cleavage. I missed that. There was more cleavage. I was like on the ground. Cleavage. I remember the boobs. Well, you know. Who hasn't seen my boobs? Priorities. I haven't seen your boobs. Really? Yeah. I mean, well, when you've been like, you know, disrobed, then, I mean, you're in the middle of doing something and like you're like either like squirming around and yelling, fuck you, fuck you. And. Wow. You know, I just don't get to see that part of you. Well, I'll be sure to show them to you as soon as I can. Well, but not now. No. I think she needs permission. I do know. Yes. Yes. That would be reasonable. Daddy, if you're listening, she'd like to see my boobs. I mean, I just, you know. I would not say no to that as well, sir, if you would allow that for, you know, two. She has two boobs and we're two people. So that seems like a rational request if we're being capable. But that's not why we're here. We're not here to talk about Julie's boobs, which we probably could do for 55 minutes. We could. We probably could. But actually, the reason that we have our fantastic, wonderful friend, Julianne, who has her own fantastic podcast called The Fearless Submissive. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. Yay. That's not true at all, Mistress. No one said that. You did. I did not say that. You did say that. Mistress, I did not say that. You did. And Mistress, I regret. Oh, I can't pull up the text on my little phone. I regret to inform you, Mistress, that that is not what I said. Anyway. I think what you might want to say is perhaps you're mistaken, Mistress. Or what might even be better, which would please me more, is if that's what you perceived, I did not intend that. at all. And you just saw me throw myself under the bus. Anyway, perhaps I was wrong, mistress. Oh, I did not intend to relay that information. My profound apologies. As we say in French, je vous en prie. Which is not the same as je suis désolé. Je suis désolé is I'm sorry. Je vous en prie is I beg your forgiveness. Okay, fuck the show. Can you just keep talking like that? Anyway, so that's not what we're here for. Why is she talking in French? Okay, our topic today is actually something that's really, really important. And part of the reason why I love the fact that Julie is on here is because I am far from a subject matter expert on this. And when we have subjects on for which we are not, you know, even somewhat informed about, we bring people on. And the topic is needs versus wants. And a lot of people talk about these things. A lot of people have talked about what is a need and what is a want. But when you get down to the cataloging of it, it is really, really difficult. To discern the difference. Because I think a lot of us can go for a long time without a want being fulfilled. And it goes so long that it feels like it is a need. And then we as human beings evolve. And as we evolve, so do our needs and wants. You know, does that make sense? So that's why I like having, you know, Julie's taught this class all over Los Angeles. She had a podcast, which was fantastic about it. And it got a discussion going between Nancy and I about needs versus wants. And it was really interesting because this was a few months ago. Yes. We were going through some shit. Whatever. That's how it goes. And we were talking about what are our needs versus our wants. And we asked each other the question. And I remember my answer was, I don't know. I don't know what is a need, what is a want. I have a much clearer understanding of it now because I've allowed time to think about it. But it's just one of those things where you just don't inherently know unless you really take a fearless inventory, which can be really challenging if that's true. That's my segue into how would you define? Well, you know, standard definitions, and yeah, this is kind of weird. It's like loud in my head. It's okay. Keep talking. Okay. Sorry. Needs are described as requirements. Things that are required for happiness, for your survival, things like that. And that's just a global, not necessarily related back to DS. Like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yes, absolutely. And so those are needs. Needs are things that are a requirement or a duty. Things like that. Whereas wants are a desire, a wish. They're a little more fluffy. And that doesn't mean to say that wants aren't important. And that doesn't mean to say that wants aren't that having your wants met isn't a requirement. But when you look at it in a DS aspect, it's very important to know the difference between what your needs are and what your wants are. Because from what in my experience, dominance are much more concerned with making sure that your needs are met versus whether or not your wants are met. And it can be challenging because like you said, sometimes there are things that you want so badly that you don't realize that they're not a need. Some things are important to you. They're so important to you that you feel like you need them. And when somebody tells you you don't, you're like, excuse me. And from the D type perspective, I can tell you that when someone comes to you with their, not literally, but figuratively, with their hands waving and screaming that this is a need, this is a need, this is a need, this is a need. Sometimes you're like, whoa, you really need to, you're taken aback and it's hard to filter through all of that noise to get down to the fact that, wait a second. That's not a need. Nobody needs sex five times a week. Nobody needs that. I have no idea what you're saying because I do. And rightly so, you should, mistress. However, as a submissive, as a slave, I don't need sex several times a week. I want it several times a week. But I don't need it. And so, the thing is that when you take your needs and wants and you put them upon someone else, then it becomes much more important to decide what's a need and what's a want. You might say, okay, I need to be played with every single weekend. And I need sex this many times a week. And I need this. And things that are demanding. Exactly, but there's a lot of dominants who are like, no, you don't need that at all. Right. You don't need that at all. What you need is, you know, I have a really hard time myself identifying what my needs are within my DS relationship because when I did my needs and wants list a couple years back when I first kind of got into learning about what the needs and wants list and stuff was, my list was made up of the things that I needed and I wanted. For my entire life. Okay. You know, these were the things that I needed and wanted to be happy in my life. And so, of course, one of the only need on my list is personal growth in my slavery. Whether that means I have a dominant, whether that means that I'm, you know, a slave or whatever, that sort of comes below it. You know what I mean? The need is, for me, is that I have personal, you know, that I have personal growth within my slavery. Which, to me, I think prompts an excellent point, which is that your needs are independent of a relationship. Yes. And it is, I think that what, because you had said something that when you put your needs and wants on another person, it becomes more important to define them, which is true. However, I don't necessarily think that all of a person's, a submissive's needs or even a dominant's needs are put upon the other person. Oh, no, absolutely not. There are so many needs that must be either self-fulfilled or fulfilled within, away from the partner, in a way, if that makes sense. Well, and that's the thing for me, is that none of the things on my needs list have anything to do with my dominant. That's nice. Well, you know, and they're basic, you know, they're life, they're my life needs, you know, I need to have good health, I need to be able to take care of my family, and I need, you know, personal growth in my slavery. That's it. Those are my needs. You know, now, underneath those things is obviously, to take care of my family, sure, I need to have a good job. You know, to have personal growth in my slavery, well, then I need to be engaging in the community, I need to be, you know, in a healthy DS relationship. Well, I don't have to be, but you know what I mean? If I'm going to be in a relationship, then it has to be a healthy one. You know, so all of those things, all of the things that I do in my life, I try to make sure that they feed into the things that I need. And, in actuality, it's really nice knowing what those needs are, because sometimes it makes certain decisions, very easy for me. Absolutely. You know, so I can look at something and go, okay, well, this is bad for me, because this doesn't really feed into anything that has to do with my needs, or it works against them. You know, it works against, you know, the things that I need, and so then it becomes very defining for me to go, okay, this isn't good for me. It's your compass. Right. So, and that was very important for me in the beginning to make sure that my needs and wants list were related to me, not to a person I was in a relationship with, or the type of relationship I was with, but for me. I'm sorry, I'm getting a massage. I know, she is just loving the massage. My neck has been killing me. This is fantastic. That's so funny to watch. One of the things about, well, and I am trying to be, you know, cogent, I love, Julie, that your needs, I mean, when you boil it down, are so simple. I mean, all, when you look at something in a simple concept, it's not simple at all. It's simple to state, it's simple to understand, but breaking it down into action is incredibly complex. But conceptually, it's simple. And what most human beings do is, we don't do simple, No, complicate the fuck out of stuff. complicate and make like super duper long lists of things, and it's detailed, and like, that seems like a recipe for disappointment. Well, mine started out really long, but after a while, I just sort of, you know, because I was, I was assigned to do this for the dominant that I had at the time, he wanted me to make this needs and wants list. And I thought, well, I can't give him this big, long thing, you know? So I just started, so I just started, you know, cutting it down and going, okay, well, this and this kind of go together, and this and this kind of go together. And so I was able to sort of break it into, you know, the main pieces. You know, I like when things are, well, when I'm visually, you know, like at work, you know, at work and stuff like that, I like when things are kind of neat and clean. I'm not a terribly neat and clean person, but. You want a Gantt chart? So I like it like that. And, you know, tell me in, like, like Sarah always says, you know, don't tell me in a thousand words, what you can tell me in a hundred, you know? So I tried to limit it down to, you know, the key points, knowing for myself that there were more things that fell underneath that, you know? So for me, it's important for me to know, you know, what my needs are in simple terms. So would you recommend when people are going through this to go through, you know, a multiple draft process and try and whittle it down to lowest common denominator? Yeah, absolutely. I think because it's, I mean, it's your list. So whatever's gonna work for you, I think is the best. If you're the kind of person that needs to see everything, you know, if you're the kind of person that needs to see a bullet point of every little thing, well then, sure. You know, that's what works for you. The thing is that my dominant never actually looked at the list. He never looked at it. He wanted it done and he, you know, asked me if it was done and asked me how I felt about it, but then never actually asked to see it because it wasn't going to be his job to make sure that those things got done. It was just like, okay, well, there's your list. Now, you know, go out and be happy. What are you gonna do? Right. So, and that was the thing is that I found that, that having that list made a really great jumping off list point for me because then I could go, okay, well, so my list, you know, one of the things on my list is obviously the ability to take care of my children. Well, how well was I doing that at the time? You know, so I looked, okay, so is, you know, is my job good? Am I in a, you know, am I in a healthy home situation? At the time I wasn't, you know what I mean? And so I was able to kind of use that as a jumping off point and then make more lists of, you know, other things to do in order to, you know, fulfill my own needs. Yeah. I don't think that, I don't think that it's possible for another person, I don't think that it's possible for another person to fulfill all of my needs. I don't want, I don't want another person to have to fulfill all of my needs. I wanna be able to do that for myself. Well, and from a D type perspective, I mean, I guarantee you that your dominant probably feels the same way. Yes. Because, you know, that's, wow, it's a lot of responsibility if somebody likes this. Here, make me happy. Whoa. Right. I got kids, I don't even make them happy. What the fuck you think I'm gonna do with you? Right, well, and I hear that a lot from, you know, submissives, I gave him my needs and wants list. Ugh. You know, why isn't he doing it? Why isn't she doing what I want her to do? It's like, I'm sorry, that doesn't, it doesn't work that way. You know, I guarantee you it doesn't work that way. And I'm sure you're, you know, your dominant will tell you the same. Yeah. But that's the thing is I think that it's very easy sometimes when you, when you are a submissive, I think it's very easy to take the role that, okay, I'm a submissive, now somebody else is gonna take care of me. Somebody else is always gonna tell me what to do and I don't have to make any decisions for myself. Fail. Well, but it's, sadly, it's, it happens a lot and I'm sure you've, you've known people and have talked to people and have heard that before. And so it's, it's really hard and it was hard for me to, to be like, wait, you're not gonna do those things. I think it, for, I mean, when, you know, we, we've, we had you on before where we talked about the difference between a submissive versus a slave. And I think that it's especially confusing for somebody from the outside when you are a self-identifying slave and yet you still do have independent thought. You still have a certain amount of independent decision making when you're dealing with these, these types of areas. And it can confuse a person from the outside, like, wait a minute. But if, you know, especially if somebody who's attracted to the submissive side says, but if I was a slave. Then I don't have to think ever, you know, somebody else is gonna make all of my decisions for me, which is just not, it would be awesome. But it's just not realistic. It just isn't. It isn't. And, and the thing is, is that you. I'm exhausting. There's no way I would do that. I mean. Well, and I might identify as a slave, but I'm, you know, still a grown, I'm still a grown ass woman. And you know, I'm 41 years old. I, I, I can't, you know, I, and I understand what you're saying because it is, it is, it is a long way. And I, and I believe that there, there may be some dominance out there who really, you know, well perhaps I can't none. There's none that I can think of, but I'm sure that there are dominance out there who really don't want their slaves to have independent thought. Maybe I personally don't know any. I don't know any either. And I don't know that I would ever want to serve somebody like that. You're right. I don't necessarily know if I'd want to communicate with somebody that would bother me. Right. I mean, who has that kind of time? Yeah. Well, who has, I mean seriously, I get it. of us d-types or control freaks but that's wow a different level right level i don't want to go to right i don't i don't need to be told you know that i have to go to work every day i don't need to be told that i have responsibilities um you know perhaps if i was you know perhaps if i was a lot younger and like brand new you know to the to the lifestyle or whatever i could understand that for a certain amount of time but i think that people in general dominance especially are more attracted to um a slave or a submissive who you know it's one thing to be obedient you know but it's another thing to have to tell them to be obedient agreed you know and so i think that it's it's kind of a i think that it's it makes i think it makes for a more attractive s-type i agree i agree when they choose to you know stay is so much better than when you shackle them although shackling is fun you just you know temporarily do you want to get on this nancy you're kind of like sitting back and not participating well i i i really enjoy it when you guys talk and i like listening and i'm like riveted by like what is happening to this i need you to talk because like she's getting to points where i'm like yes ishtaria is an amazing massage massage masseuse masseuse all right so you look so happy we've we've had you and i nancy have had discussions about needs versus wants we have and based on our last discussion i mean where do you think that you are today and even listening to what julie's saying today um i'm not where i want to be that's i'm very certain about that um um i'm jealous that you have it whittled down it's so simple do you have it's like step four of of aa fearless inventory i i hate to bring that up but i mean a lot of people are going to get that yeah and it's the hardest step it is to god is the hardest step well and and i think what's hard too is sometimes when you realize um that what you need isn't what you want right that's well you're right it's true because you think but i but but i mean let's be honest i don't need sex five times a week i don't i probably don't even need sex once a week i mean you might feel like you're having a hard time but i feel like you're having a hard time because you're think I need sex once a week because it makes me a much happier person. But in all reality, I was married, so I went without sex for a long time. It didn't kill me. Luckily, though, as a dominant, you're allowed to want and get sex that many times a week if you are having sex with your submissives. I agree. But my point is that I don't think that regardless of the side that you're on in a DS scenario, it should preclude someone from having that kind of a brutally honest needs versus wants list. I think that that makes you a well-rounded BDSM practitioner, regardless of what side you're on. So for me, yeah, hey, it's good to be the king. I can have what I want. But the truth is, when I'm trying to balance out my needs, their needs, it's important to establish, okay, well, if I'm getting everything I want, is that really fulfilling a balanced relationship? Relationship of needs. And that's important. Right. I had a thought and I forgot it. I'm sorry. I cut you off, Nancy. No, it's okay. You can cut me off whenever you want to. No, it's just not, I'm not, I'm not there. It's weird. It's like I have like this framework, like, okay, this is, these are the things that need to happen in order to get to whatever result I need to be able to really take care of my needs. Um, but. I don't, I suspect that a lot of it is fear that keeps me from doing a lot of those things. Um, you know, you get so, uh, familiar with chaos and just all of these things in your life. And that's, I mean, it's just, it's scary to trade that in for something that's obviously a lot better because you don't know what it is. You don't, it's, it's unfamiliar. Do you have a list? It's just, no. Okay. See, and that was one of the things I, I, what I, when I talked about in the class that I taught, um, I had asked people if they had a list and a lot of people were like, well, I have it in my head. Right. Which is not the same. Which is absolutely not the same. There's something about, you know, writing it down or even, you know, typing it up. And it's, it's real simple. You know, you just make it like a, like a pro con list, you know, with the line in the middle and on top and, you know, needs, wants, and, and you have it and it's like this tangible, you know, print it out. You know, once you're done with it, you print it out and you have this tangible piece of paper. And what I, what I had recommended, um, and what I recommended, is, is you, you know, you have it and you look at it and you, you know, you spend a day or whatever doing it and then, you know, you put it away for a day and then you take it out again the next day and look at it again and go, okay, does it, does, is that really what needs to be there? You know, does that, is that a need or really is that a want or is that a want? Maybe that's really a need. You know, um, back when we're back to the, back to the sex talk, um, I was actually quite surprised, um, when I took, uh, sex off of my needs list because that's always been a really big thing for me. And I had to really consider why did I think it was a need, you know? And for me, it was, it was more of an emotional thing for me and, and the way that I sort of, um, you know, tied in my self-worth and, and such with, with sex and whether or not people want to have sex with me or whether, you know, things like that. And so I was able to identify that as an, excuse me, as an unhealthy pattern. Mm-hmm. You know? So, it was one of those things that I was like, okay, well, this, this really isn't something that I need, but I probably should take a good look at why I think it is. You know? And I moved it on. It's on my wants list, you know, a healthy sex life. Pretty high. Pretty high on the wants list. Yeah. You know, um, but the wants list is, uh, it's, and the wants list is important. That's the thing is that it's not that the want, it's not that your wants are not important, but you need to be a little more realistic about your wants. Right. Um, especially when they tie into like a relationship with another person. Like if you're a submissive who has, you know, um, you know, like a, a, a regular, you know, um, I don't want to say regular because what's regular. Um, you know, like, so let's say if you're a submissive who has sex four times a week on their wants list. Um, it'd probably be a good idea for you to seek out a dominant who has the same sexual drive as you do. Yeah. Otherwise you're going to be really frustrated. And the thing is, is that when you don't get your wants met, sometimes it can, um, sometimes like you said, it feels like a need and you, you become very frustrated, you become very resentful. And I just got a text message from my sir telling me to stop fighting Nancy. There's no fighting. Was I fighting? There's no fighting. Honest sir, there's no fighting. I'm not fighting sir. Um, real quick on, onto the, you know, when you're talking about sex, you know, when you're on to the, you know, when you're, you're doing this whittling, this needs versus wants when people are sitting there and writing it down, which I think is incredibly important. And I think that there is a difference between typing it and writing it by hand. They just, they, they, they attach, they attach to different parts of your memory. And I'm not to say whether which one is better than the other, but it's just for me, I know that if I hand write something, it's going to be a little bit more permanently ingrained than if I type something because I think I spend so much time in front of computer typing, if that makes sense. Um, but beyond that, I think that it is important to have a good relationship with your partner. And it is incredibly important to be in a very neutral emotional space when you're making this list to not be emotionally compromised, to not be in sub frenzy, to not be, um, either depressed, emotionally high drop, you know, whatever it is to not be in any of those, those extreme emotional conditions. When you're making this list, it needs to be kind of as middle of the road as you can possibly get. Right. So what's your recommendation? Sir said to stop fidgeting. Oh, he can see you fidgeting. She always fidgets. Trust me. Always fidgets. Um, so with all of, of what you described that, you know, would be ideal for someone to be in a certain mind frame, um, when they're making that list, I mean, all I can think about is, you know, you get, you get, you know, you get, you know, you get, you get, you know, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get, you get. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. It was for me. to be in various states of emotional whatever when you're going through this list. You really do have to go through it a lot. Now, going back to kind of the 12-step program concept, when you're doing your fourth step, which is the fearless inventory, self-inventory of your, what's the word? It's been so long since I've dealt with 12 steps, of your weaknesses. That's got a word. You people out there that know the 12 steps are going to be upset with me. Anyway, but that is, you have a sponsor, which is ostensibly a mentor, and you have to go through it with this mentor. And there is something about exposing your deepest, darkest things to another person that is very bonding, that is very humiliating. It creates a certain amount of humility in a person, which can be very beneficial. And I'm not saying that anybody has to do that, but if you do have somebody with, you have that kind of a relationship, that kind of bond, that might be very beneficial. Right. And I think it's different for every person. I think if you are a person, especially a submissive, who is very closed off and mistrusting and has been through something hard, been through bad experiences, I think that doing something like that would be really helpful because this is a step that's not, it's not the same, it's not the same kind of, you know, assignment that you would do. Right. I mean, this is something that is purely for you and your happiness. And if I were to, you know, regardless of where I go, this list is mine and stays with me. You always have stars upon the hours. I get that. So it's, but it would be, it would definitely be very good. It would be very good for some people to do that, you know, two birds with one stone. Two birds with one stone. That's true. Um, I think, are you good? You're okay? This is awesome. I have, she can do your feet as well. No, no, it's really fantastic. I'm really happy with this. Um, where, where should somebody start? They've never even thought about it. They've never even thought that there was somehow a differentiation between a need and a want. They're so closely intertwined. They couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't begin to, they couldn't somebody start? Well, I, I think just looking at the, just looking at the definitions of a need and a want, you can kind of, you can see it right there. I mean, obviously needs are an obligation. They're, they're a requirement. Whereas a want is a desire, you know, and that's, it's different. Well, because Nancy. Yes, ma'am. We had a fantastic scene last weekend, which, which was extensive objectification. I painted her body from head to toe like a statue and adorned her with decorations. I saw that. And stood her up in the middle of the dungeon as the statue for as long as she could until she fell down, literally. And at the end of the evening and the next day, she had decided that objectification was a need. It wasn't a want. It was a need. She needs that. And my question then is, I'm not one to judge. I'm one to judge. But the question is, how... Clearly, it's much like sex. It feels a lot like a need. Feels a lot like a need. But is it really a need? Well, there's a good question. What do you need it for? I need it for release. But that's... But I don't... It's like pressing reset. It's just like a clear mind. And I need a clear mind. What would you... What would you do if you weren't in a DS relationship? I have no fucking clue. Right. That's the point. That's good. So that's the thing is if you set up your needs so that you... That somebody else has to make them possible for you, probably not the smartest idea to have that as a need. I mean, that's the thing is I can say that. I can say I need to be played with, whatever. I need a good beating every two days a week or every two days or something like that. Well, what happens if... You can't have that. What happens if I don't have a dominant? Or what happens if I get sick or he gets sick or, you know, something happens? I mean, am I going to explode at that point? You know what I'm saying? So, I mean, you have to be very realistic about your needs. We can be very passionate about our wants. And sometimes our wants define what our needs are. And so maybe you can say, okay, well, this is definitely a want. Or if I'm going to have a really great hot scene, then this is what I need to have a really great hot scene. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Hot scenes aren't really a need. See, and it's because I get, I mean, because it boils down to what you said. You said you needed to have a blank mind. And I think that exploring that area and how, if that is a need that you have, that's a fine need. You figured out what that lowest common denominator is. It's your responsibility then to figure out how you can achieve that independent. Right. of a D type. Does that make sense? Because otherwise, you really are setting yourself up for disappointment. You're setting yourself up for a lot of, you know, because then what if it doesn't happen? What if, you know, let's say we're planning on going to the dungeon and you're hoping there's going to be one of those scenes and for whatever reason we don't go to the dungeon or we get there and, you know, I'm not feeling well or an old friend is there and I want to spend the entire night talking to an old friend. You know, you'll be disappointed because what you have established as a need isn't fulfilled because you haven't figured out a way to start working on that need yourself. Does that make sense? Yeah. Feeling me? Yeah. But I think that that's an excellent kind of example for the listeners at home to realize how they can start whittling down their needs versus wants list. I would be really interested in making my own. Well, and I think it's a good thing for everyone. I think it's a good thing for whether you're in a, you know, in this kind of relationship or in this lifestyle or whatever. I think it's a good thing for everyone because like I said, it helps you to have a jumping off point towards, you know, change and improvement and empowerment and all those other things, you know, self-actualization, you know, things like that. You know, when you know, like I said, when you know what it is that you need out of your life, you, once you've defined what you need, there's, it's hard to come up with really good excuses as to why you won't go get it. True. It's really funny because if you listen to this, I mean, even though obviously we have this whole overlaying construct of BDSM, it's still a lot of kind of like what matters most, you know, the seven most, you know, highly effective people thing, that whole Franklin Covey, whatever. That's, I mean, it's true. It's about, you know, if you're a, you know, if you really set aside the big stones, you can create room for a lot of whatever these smaller stones are. But if you don't, if you, if you fill up, like there's an example and it was one of those, you know, Covey workshop things. There's a big glass thing. There's all these stones and then there's this little glass thing of little stones. And it said, okay, you know, you need to put all of the stones to fit in this. And so the first person goes up there and pours on all the little stones and tries to put the big stones and it doesn't fit. And he goes, okay, next person, try the big stones first. So he puts the big stones in and then pours in the little stones and everything fits. And the point was, if you set aside time to do what's really important first, you're going to have more time for all those little things that are still important, but not nearly as important as those big things. Right. Same concept. Exactly. I heard something similar to that and it was like the stones with water as well. And so you, you know, put in the big stones and then the small stones and then you pour in the big stones and then you pour the water in. Oh, there you go. Yeah, same concept. So, and it's, and it's very true and it's actually, it's been, it's been invaluable, it's been an invaluable tool for me. You know, I've had a lot of, you know, I've had a lot of things that have happened, you know, to me just in the last, you know, four or five years, you know, since I've been in this lifestyle and having that tool was probably the single most important thing that I did for myself. I would equate it to being a rudder without, without, without, without having, knowing what your needs are, you're rudderless. And so you're kind of just adrift and you are completely at the mercy of the currents around you. And if that happens to be your dominant, you know, you're completely at the mercy of that. And if that happens to be your submissive, whatever side of the, the role you're on or play partners or whatever. And to me, that just, that's a recipe for disaster. That's, that's potentially very dangerous because you don't, you know, you aren't, for lack of a better term, you're not staying true to yourself. You feel me? That's what I'm saying. One of the things about, you know, when you're making your needs list and, and another reason why I, I broke, I broke it down to, to small things, as you mentioned, the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And so sometimes people will look at their needs list. And if you, if you take that one thing and you put it on the hierarchy of needs, you might realize that it's higher, on the pyramid than what you've got beneath it. If that makes sense. You know, you have to kind of make sure that you've got the base set first. You know, you've got, you know, the, I don't remember all the tiers of the hierarchy, but there's. Yeah. The, the base is kind of like your, your physical needs, you know, food, shelter. And then there's, I think safety and things like that. And so, you know, you have to, you have to sort of work within that. And the idea is, is that once you, you, you start reaching the needs that are higher in the pyramid, that makes the assumption that all the things beneath it are taken care of. Yes. Well, I mean, like anything, you have to ensure that you have a solid base. Right. Before you can build up. And so I think that's another, another good thing about the way that I did my list and I was able to break it down. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. So that's, uh, physiological safety, belonging, esteem, and self-actualization is up there on the top. See, look. Can you see it? Can you see it? Yes, you can. Wow. Or you can just, you know, Google it. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yes. It's a thing. It is. But it's interesting though, because, you know, and, and sex is on there. Yes. Yes, it is. It's like the third tier. Right. Well, along with the psychological kind of that connection. Right. Intimacy, love, that's, that's, right. That's, that's the intimacy part. Sex, there's the physiological need, you know, for like reproduction and stuff like that. But, yeah, but I don't think we're really having that issue going on in the world nowadays. Not too worried. We got a lot of that happening. So, but I, I, I definitely, like I said, it's, it's the, it's the single, it's, it's the thing that changed, um, it changed my life the most. Because it was able to, to give me, um, a map, you know, a blueprint of, of, you know, where I was at the time. I was able, I was able to look at the needs and go, okay, well, this isn't happening. This is something I need to be happening and this isn't happening. So what do I need to do to make it happen? You know, and, and you just sort of, you know, whittle away at the things until, you know, you can say, okay, I can now meet this need in my life. Yeah. And it's also, um, it's also a really good idea, especially when you are, um, before you, like before you get into a relationship with somebody, because you can sort of look at who they are and what they have to offer and see if anything that they're about is in conflict with anything that you need in your life. You know, if you are a person in your life who, who needs, um, who, who values or, or needs their sobriety. And I know that's, you know, a big thing for a lot of people and they, they can't be around people who aren't sober or whatever. Um, and you can, you know, you have something on paper that says, you know, I, I can't be around, you know, this kind of person because it will affect this need. Yep. So it's, it's always a, it's a good thing to have that, you know, to have that, like you said, that piece of paper, something that you took the time to, to write out or whatever. So you can, um, you know, make decisions when you're moving forward. So. She looks like she's going to fall asleep. Dude, seriously, this is so awesome. Thank you so much. It's like, we are going to have Julie back, all the time. So, you know, I love your redemption. That's all I have to say right now. Um, so, I think that, you know, it's funny, whenever we go to like classes and stuff like fisting classes, for example, we have it set up so that, you know, it's the bottom that we know the fist is going to fit in. So it fits in. Hey, look how easy fisting is. But in reality, it's not that, it's not that easy. So, you know, we've kind of set it up where we have you here. We're like, well, look how she has this. It's one need. She has one need. One need. Can you have one need? I have three. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Um, and it's one of those things where most of us would like, our list would be like 50 things long or 20 or whatever. It probably isn't though. It isn't, it isn't, but it's for, you know, as time goes by and you, and you go through the whittling process, I think that people need to understand that it's okay to start with a big list. Mm-hmm. And then, and then kind of break it down from there. Right. But, I think that your points about ensuring that it is a list where you can ensure you can fulfill your own needs on both sides is really important. Right. You know, because, I mean, yeah, it'd be not, I mean, hey, you know what? I have a need for CBT. I have to, you know, bust some balls. Please, come on. I can't remember the last time I busted some balls. It's a sad thing, but it is what it is. But it's not a need. It's fun. It can be a very, very strong one. It's fun. But, you know, if I don't have balls to bust, I guess I'm not doing it. It's kind of how it goes. I'm feeling quite happy I don't have balls right now. Well, there's that. I could, I could do boobs though. I'm okay with that. Or just, you know, just genital. Sure, we can do that too. It can happen. And I think that, again, for me, if I were to, like, let's say it's been so long since I've done CBT, that I would make my list, and that, I would, I would feel, it would feel so deep. Wow, that's awesome. It would feel so deep, like it's a need, but I would know, somebody else needs to talk now. I would know that it's just a want. And that, that can sometimes be a challenge when you're going through this process. It's also, it should be this awesome. It should be, I'm sorry, radio people, you're not getting this. You have no words. You're just like mumbling now. Stop. I actually have a really good point right now. Fuck, I forgot my really good point. No, I have a good point. This is like predicament bondage. It should be, it should be a very emotionally intensive process. It really should. This, this should be like therapy and, and everything all rolled up into one because this is the kind of shit that people sit on a couch for 10 years talking to some psychiatrist or psychologist about because they got to figure out what's going on. That's huge. This should be a challenge. I would hope that you would, did you cry at some point? Oh yeah. When you were making your list? Absolutely. Because it has to be that kind of a list. Right. Because I mean, I was able to look at my list and go, okay, well this is, I've defined this as a need for me, but I am nowhere near able to achieve it. You know, I mean, I was able to look at my list and realize, okay, I'm not in a good home situation. I'm not taking care of my children. You know what I mean? That's a need for me. I need to be able to take care of my family and I'm not doing that. You know, and it's hard once you, you know, once you, um, once you, you define those things for yourself, you know, when you, when you realize, well now I got to do something. And I think that's where a lot of the fear comes in is because you don't, you don't want to have to do it. You know, it's, it's, you, you might realize that there are things that you need to do and they're hard to do. And, you know, And the devil you know is, is less scary than the devil you don't know. Absolutely. Absolutely, mistress. And that's the, that's the biggest problem I think and that's what holds a lot of people back from, from doing it is because maybe somewhere in the back of their mind they know that they should be doing things, that their life should be about more than what it's about right now or that, you know, they, they should be focusing on the things that they're not focusing on. And once you, you know, once you name it, you got to claim it. Or once you claim it, you got to name it or something like that. I think it's once you name it, you got to claim it. But it's, that's true. Yes. But it's true. And, and that's, you know, nobody wants to do that when it's hard. That's true. It's, it would be so much, easier to just not identify it. I don't want to think about that right now. Yes, that's true. I can't, I can't deal with that right now. That's true. I don't have the emotional energy to, to handle it. And it's true. But at some point, if somebody's being really, really honest, you know, you've kind of already, already identified it in the back of your mind. And the, the hope is that at some point, some part of your brain is working on it at some point. Whether it is or is not, you don't really know. But people also need to understand that change can be very, very slow depending upon what it is. For an example, I was in an abusive relationship and I was with the man for 13 and a half years. And I'm a smart fucking cookie and I'm strong. 13 and a half years. So it took me that long to get my shit together, to be whatever, to realize all of these things. There's so much that goes into it. So people need to be a little bit gentle with themselves when they're going through this moment. They, it's okay to have that realization. You're not in a good home situation. You know, you need a new job because you're not paying your bills or whatever, whatever it might be. It's important for people not to jump on themselves. And I think we have a tendency to beat ourselves up because there is an immediate action. You know, thanks to the internet, we expect everything now in five seconds. We don't even have a, you know, a card catalog with Dewey Decimal that takes us two minutes to look it up. It's two seconds. And I think that understanding that it's okay to make a list, even an unrealistic, realistic list. Absolutely. And know that attaining it today isn't necessarily the goal. Give yourself time. Mm-hmm. Well, and that's the thing is that, you know, your needs list doesn't have to be what's true for your life right now. You know what I'm saying? It can be, it can be a, it's like a goal. It's like a goal sheet almost. You know, these are the things I want. Well, you know, I want to drive a brand new car. It's, I mean, it literally is on my wants list. I want to drive a brand new car. I work hard. I, I can afford it. I want a brand new car. Um, but I don't have a brand new car. You know, I mean, there are things that are on my wants list that, that I, you know, that, that are not a reality for me right now, but there are things that I can work for. And in the beginning, like I said, there were things on my needs list that weren't a reality at the time, but I knew that there were things that I needed to work for and that I could work for. And that's, that's another thing about the wants list is that is, is being realistic about it. You know, um, if you have things on your wants list, because even we talk a lot about needs and it's really easy to make it seem like the needs are the only things that are important. Wants are very important. Wants are some of the, they're, they're the, you know, they're the, the frosting on the cake, you know, I mean, that, that's the good stuff. Depending on the frosting. Absolutely. You know, so it's, and I have a tendency to downplay wants, but they are, they are very important. I think there are important, I think there are important, and it's okay to have them. You know, you just need to be realistic about having them. You know, um, if you're, if you, if you want something that is unattainable, you know, because it relies too much on, on other people, or it relies on you being, um, something you're not, or somewhere you're not, or, you know, then. I want to be 5'9". That is never, ever going to happen. It's just not a possibility. I'd like to be thin and rich. That would be awesome. Can we do this? But if we were rich, we could become thin. True. So. That, that's true. But see, unattainable. At this particular moment. Apparently I need to buy lottery tickets for that to happen. So. I keep forgetting to buy lottery tickets. I, I'll never win. The reality is I'll never win. So it's an honor. You don't win if you don't play. Yeah, it's true. But you also don't lose a dollar. Or a 10. Hashtag silver lining. Or a 10. It's true. So it, it's, it's definitely a, um, it's, it's, it's definitely part of, it's part of the journey that we're on. Um, and it's, and what I realized is that while I did it as part of my journey as a slave, um, it's really become part of the journey of my life. And I think that, um, if you, you know, if you really look at it and, and approach it in a very, um, thoughtful way, I think it'll probably be that way for most people. Character flaws. That's it. That's the word. Character flaws. Thank God. Character flaws. It's literally, I've been thinking about it ever since then. Finally, it came to me. Character flaws. I know. As soon as you said that, I was like, yes. I feel so much better. I knew exactly what you meant. Thank you. I knew you would. I'm sorry. Nancy keeps trying to say something. We keep talking. I, I, it already, it already went away. It already went away? Yeah. Has this, uh, has this discussion, I know certainly it's given me a lot of food for thought for establishing my own needs versus wants list. Has it, uh, aided you in this process? Yes. I want one of her. Can I have one of her? I, that I can tell. I can tell. I can tell. Those things can be taught, I believe. I'm sure that, I'm sure that Ishtar would be happy to teach you how to do these things. I say yes. You say yes? I give stamp approval to that. I'm sorry. Go on. No, no, no. It's just that, I just, that my answer was yes. It's a show where you're supposed to participate. It's a full, it's a full, it's a full, it's a full, it's a full, it's a full participation show. Well, you know, seeing as this is one of my huge, like, you know, weaknesses, I don't feel very. Yeah, but that's a, that's a fantastic side. I mean, it certainly is one of my weaknesses as well, but I'm not shutting up. Yeah, yeah, but I, you know, it's a lot harder for me to talk about because my lack of organization in that area causes problems. So that's, I, I just, I don't, I would rather listen and learn. You don't really need to be all that organized. I mean, really, it's just a piece of paper and a line in the middle. I guess, I mean, post-its. I mean, like, like, like, look, we could do it right now. Like, look, it's just like this. Okay. Just like this. It's a cross. It can be a religious moment. Just like this. I get that. I get that, guys. I mean, like organized up here and in here. Well, then don't organize it in the beginning. Then in the beginning, go, go like take your needs list and, and just put everything in there. And, you know, and sometimes what there was one person, what I did is I told her to put everything on her needs list. Don't put anything on your wants list in the beginning. Just put everything on your needs list. So that way in your mind, you don't have to think about it in the beginning, which one's a need, which one's a want. Yeah. Just everything that you've got in your head that you think you need, just put it all on one side, you know, and then move them over, you know, look at it, move them over, you know, one, one a day. I think that, that, that same approach, like using kind of the brainstorming concept, just throw everything up on a whiteboard, everything up on a whiteboard or tablet, whatever it is you're using. And then you start sliding them to wherever, but you're right. I mean, if you don't, if you don't put a title on it, you don't name what it is before you put it down. It leaves you open to the possibility that it could be anything. And therefore you're probably going to be a little bit more open with whatever it is. Right. I'm not sure what it is, but I know it's important. Right. Right. Especially if it's in your mind, it's important on some level. And again, to reiterate your point that wants are still important, you know, but there is a hierarchy obviously. So I think that that's, you know, that should be fun. Big whiteboards, you know, one of those team building exercises that we do in business. No, I love being here. I like being with you. We like it when you're with us. Oh, I look at the time. See, I can look at the clock cause I'm having somebody do fantastic. I just might not. So real quick, real quick for people that are listening and would like to know more about you, where can they find you? How can they contact you? And what's up with this podcast that you have? Oh, so the fearless submissive is, um, it's almost a weekly podcast. There isn't one this week, but I'm here. I thought about just recording the show and then just, um, and, and it's a, it's a very, it's not as fancy as this one. It's not in a studio. It's usually, usually done in my bedroom, recorded on my iPhone, which still sounds good, which is really great. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds really good. And Sir Redemption just like walks in and, you know, edit. Right. Um, and, and it's called the fearless submissive and it's, it's, I try to focus on, um, you know, focus on growth topics, you know, in submission and, and, and ways to, um, to be, to be a fearless submissive. I don't claim that I am one, but I try. I'm working on it. You're definitely my Buddha of S types. That's for damn sure. That's true. I'm a Dalai Lama. And so there's that. And that usually I try to post a new show on Sundays, but I'm not the greatest at it. I admit. And you can find that on iTunes or the fearless submissive.com. And I am teaching classes, um, coming up this summer. I have one coming up in July. That would be this month. We're in July. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Uh, coming up in July, I believe it's the 20th, Michelle. Sorry. The 20th. Um, yes. Um, um, that is going to be at the Laird aside called, um, slavery for the rest of us, which is kind of after that book, parenthood for the rest of us. So it's kind of like how to be a good slave when you're kind of a hot mess. Cause that's, I think that's very good. And then, um, I have another one coming up, um, in September at a threshold and that's called 24 seven is not for wimps. And that was the class that I was going to be teaching at DomCon, but didn't make it to DomCon because my car broke down on the freeway. It happens. So, I like teaching classes that are, you know, kind of fun. I think people learn a little bit better when they're laughing. I agree. I agree. Um, so thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Uh, you can find me on the Twitter and it's Sidious Muse and everybody else in Sidious Muse. I can't talk cause you know, this is awesome. And then you, the one over there is service slut. Um, and it's kink intellectual on the Twitter. Uh, review us on iTunes. Um, you know, just cause we think we're awesome. They are. You are awesome. Just for that alone. But, uh, and we'll be back next week. I don't know. We might have some funny people on. Thank you. Bye.